LJCal
Junior Member
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December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 13:57:31 GMT 1, Well you're allowed to actually like Albert Willem, and to buy his work. The problem only arises if you, a) bought solely for investment, or, b) you ended up overpaying because The Syndicate had inflated prices when you bought. I have no doubt that all the artists boosted by this shadowy scheme have genuine fans. Yeah a few of the artists are still decent and if their career followed a different path may have had a long term market and career.
Well you're allowed to actually like Albert Willem, and to buy his work. The problem only arises if you, a) bought solely for investment, or, b) you ended up overpaying because The Syndicate had inflated prices when you bought. I have no doubt that all the artists boosted by this shadowy scheme have genuine fans. Yeah a few of the artists are still decent and if their career followed a different path may have had a long term market and career.
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LJCal
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,818
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December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 13:58:46 GMT 1, Now I am really curious about the amount of members on here that bought Willlemโs artworks. I purchased directly from Albert in 2021. โฌ250. Which still exceeds its intrinsic value. Another important concept to keep in mind.
Now I am really curious about the amount of members on here that bought Willlemโs artworks. I purchased directly from Albert in 2021. โฌ250. Which still exceeds its intrinsic value. Another important concept to keep in mind.
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RoboJ
Artist
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,201
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July 2015
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Albert willem prices?, by RoboJ on Apr 20, 2024 14:15:12 GMT 1, I bought a piece directly from Albert when we spotted his work on instagram. Love his wit and humour. I had to sell when the prices shot up as the money could really help. However I still love his work and would buy again if I could afford it.
I bought a piece directly from Albert when we spotted his work on instagram. Love his wit and humour. I had to sell when the prices shot up as the money could really help. However I still love his work and would buy again if I could afford it.
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LJCal
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,818
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December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 14:40:19 GMT 1, I'm just super interested by the mechanics of this. So talking hard data, I've plotted all the auction results on Artsy since he first appeared in May 2022 until today. There's 51 results with prices - three of these were brought in (Nov 2022, Mar 2023 and Mar 2024) and in total there were US$4,859,655 of sales with fees. A few of these were less than 20k aside from the recent one, including in Mar 2023 and two in Dec 2023. So what's the play here? Are all $5m in sales by the syndicate or only a bunch of them? And are they just selling to themselves, unless third parties jump in (so the only loss is auction fees)? Are the low results where the syndicate decided to let market forces set price / they weren't sales initiated by them? I know eg the Warhol market is controlled by effectively 5 players who have a syndicate to ensure his prices meet a certain threshold (including buying in underperforming works), but just intrigued how a pump and dump works with emerging ones. I guess the idea is to sell and buy a fee works at auction for inflated prices ie 150k. The works are your own or your friends so you're only down auction fees and taxes. You hope that the trend will catch up. Prices are so high, I've heard Gagosian will represent him. At the same time you sell 30-40 works for a bargain 50k apiece. After a while everyone sees no show or gallery rep is gonna happen and prices dive. Basically yes, but multiply that number sold by 10x - 50x. Do the maths, say a thousand sold at ยฃ40,000 each (pay the artist say a few grand each), that's about ยฃ37m gross profit. Say you put ยฃ4 million of sales over 20-30 lots at auction over 3-4 year period, so ยฃ100-250k a lot. That's about ยฃ1 million in premiums, call it ยฃ2 million with all costs to be generous. Basically ยฃ35m to split between the financiers and galleries/dealers pumping and selling work. Tens of millions can be made on each artist for the galleries and the people funding it.
I'm just super interested by the mechanics of this. So talking hard data, I've plotted all the auction results on Artsy since he first appeared in May 2022 until today. There's 51 results with prices - three of these were brought in (Nov 2022, Mar 2023 and Mar 2024) and in total there were US$4,859,655 of sales with fees. A few of these were less than 20k aside from the recent one, including in Mar 2023 and two in Dec 2023. So what's the play here? Are all $5m in sales by the syndicate or only a bunch of them? And are they just selling to themselves, unless third parties jump in (so the only loss is auction fees)? Are the low results where the syndicate decided to let market forces set price / they weren't sales initiated by them? I know eg the Warhol market is controlled by effectively 5 players who have a syndicate to ensure his prices meet a certain threshold (including buying in underperforming works), but just intrigued how a pump and dump works with emerging ones. I guess the idea is to sell and buy a fee works at auction for inflated prices ie 150k. The works are your own or your friends so you're only down auction fees and taxes. You hope that the trend will catch up. Prices are so high, I've heard Gagosian will represent him. At the same time you sell 30-40 works for a bargain 50k apiece. After a while everyone sees no show or gallery rep is gonna happen and prices dive. Basically yes, but multiply that number sold by 10x - 50x. Do the maths, say a thousand sold at ยฃ40,000 each (pay the artist say a few grand each), that's about ยฃ37m gross profit. Say you put ยฃ4 million of sales over 20-30 lots at auction over 3-4 year period, so ยฃ100-250k a lot. That's about ยฃ1 million in premiums, call it ยฃ2 million with all costs to be generous. Basically ยฃ35m to split between the financiers and galleries/dealers pumping and selling work. Tens of millions can be made on each artist for the galleries and the people funding it.
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kfroms
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,686
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October 2011
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Albert willem prices?, by kfroms on Apr 20, 2024 14:51:14 GMT 1, I canโt deny Schadenfreude for everyone who gets burnt by buying โhotโ art to flip it. 5 digits or more for these Albert Willem paintings? Seriously? How gullible can one be?
Anyway, it will happen again. :-)
I canโt deny Schadenfreude for everyone who gets burnt by buying โhotโ art to flip it. 5 digits or more for these Albert Willem paintings? Seriously? How gullible can one be?
Anyway, it will happen again. :-)
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LJCal
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,818
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December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 14:54:43 GMT 1, I canโt deny Schadenfreude for everyone who gets burnt by buying โhotโ art to flip it. 5 digits or more for these Albert Willem paintings? Seriously? How gullible can one be? Anyway, it will happen again. :-) It's a variation of a scam that's been running for hundreds of years, basically a variation of the ponzy scheme but in these instances not even the collectors/investors who get in early get paid out.
I canโt deny Schadenfreude for everyone who gets burnt by buying โhotโ art to flip it. 5 digits or more for these Albert Willem paintings? Seriously? How gullible can one be? Anyway, it will happen again. :-) It's a variation of a scam that's been running for hundreds of years, basically a variation of the ponzy scheme but in these instances not even the collectors/investors who get in early get paid out.
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kfroms
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,686
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October 2011
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Albert willem prices?, by kfroms on Apr 20, 2024 14:58:03 GMT 1, I know. And it will happen again - greed is such a such a good tool make people stop thinking.
I know. And it will happen again - greed is such a such a good tool make people stop thinking.
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Wanchope
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,349
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February 2020
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Albert willem prices?, by Wanchope on Apr 20, 2024 18:31:26 GMT 1, Now I am really curious about the amount of members on here that bought Willlemโs artworks. I certainly tried to in 2021 through this forum but it was ยฃ500 and I thought it was fun and humorous. I never received it due to the courier losing it, but thatโs life. Tried a few other forum members who suddenly wanted to hold onto which I donโt blame them as they were literally worth ยฃ20k upwards within a week or two of them being ยฃ500!!! Go figure
Now I am really curious about the amount of members on here that bought Willlemโs artworks. I certainly tried to in 2021 through this forum but it was ยฃ500 and I thought it was fun and humorous. I never received it due to the courier losing it, but thatโs life. Tried a few other forum members who suddenly wanted to hold onto which I donโt blame them as they were literally worth ยฃ20k upwards within a week or two of them being ยฃ500!!! Go figure
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LJCal
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,818
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December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 18:45:01 GMT 1, Now I am really curious about the amount of members on here that bought Willlemโs artworks. I certainly tried to in 2021 through this forum but it was ยฃ500 and I thought it was fun and humorous. I never received it due to the courier losing it, but thatโs life. Tried a few other forum members who suddenly wanted to hold onto which I donโt blame them as they were literally worth ยฃ20k upwards within a week or two of them being ยฃ500!!! Go figure My advice to those people now, is to call Sotebys, Christie's, Phillips Monday and beg to get a slot in the next available at auction (may have to wait a while), set it at no reserve and hope to fuck whoever buys it actually pays.
Now I am really curious about the amount of members on here that bought Willlemโs artworks. I certainly tried to in 2021 through this forum but it was ยฃ500 and I thought it was fun and humorous. I never received it due to the courier losing it, but thatโs life. Tried a few other forum members who suddenly wanted to hold onto which I donโt blame them as they were literally worth ยฃ20k upwards within a week or two of them being ยฃ500!!! Go figure My advice to those people now, is to call Sotebys, Christie's, Phillips Monday and beg to get a slot in the next available at auction (may have to wait a while), set it at no reserve and hope to fuck whoever buys it actually pays.
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Dice
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,198
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October 2011
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Albert willem prices?, by Dice on Apr 20, 2024 18:58:27 GMT 1, One thing that would help surely would be auction websites showing a work as unsold if the buyer didnโt pay. Shouldnโt be able to get away with pretending it sold.
One thing that would help surely would be auction websites showing a work as unsold if the buyer didnโt pay. Shouldnโt be able to get away with pretending it sold.
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orchid
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,450
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May 2018
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Albert willem prices?, by orchid on Apr 20, 2024 18:59:41 GMT 1, This is why people are buying back into blue chip or established artists with a record
This is why people are buying back into blue chip or established artists with a record
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Harveyn
Forum Guardian
Full Member
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July 2007
Staff Member
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Albert willem prices?, by Harveyn on Apr 20, 2024 19:29:00 GMT 1, Art for many is just a commodity and the market is manipulated by not just this type of shenanigans. For instance top end galleries placing works in institutions so their artists profile is improved and they can command higher prices. Another form of manipulation just a little more subtle.
Art for many is just a commodity and the market is manipulated by not just this type of shenanigans. For instance top end galleries placing works in institutions so their artists profile is improved and they can command higher prices. Another form of manipulation just a little more subtle.
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LJCal
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,818
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December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 19:31:32 GMT 1, One thing that would help surely would be auction websites showing a work as unsold if the buyer didnโt pay. Shouldnโt be able to get away with pretending it sold. I fully agree but theyโre in no rush to do this, it would effect their sell through rate, and % of sales over high/mid estimate. Whilst the idea that the art market is wholly unregulated is a popular misunderstanding, certainly the way auction houses operate is well below the legal and moral standards of many other markets. Sothebys and Christieโs were already prosecuted for price fixing (their fees still look remarkably similar even following prosecution) however there is probably many other shady business practises that would come to light with a little more oversight.
One thing that would help surely would be auction websites showing a work as unsold if the buyer didnโt pay. Shouldnโt be able to get away with pretending it sold. I fully agree but theyโre in no rush to do this, it would effect their sell through rate, and % of sales over high/mid estimate. Whilst the idea that the art market is wholly unregulated is a popular misunderstanding, certainly the way auction houses operate is well below the legal and moral standards of many other markets. Sothebys and Christieโs were already prosecuted for price fixing (their fees still look remarkably similar even following prosecution) however there is probably many other shady business practises that would come to light with a little more oversight.
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Wanchope
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,349
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February 2020
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Albert willem prices?, by Wanchope on Apr 20, 2024 22:43:17 GMT 1, One thing that would help surely would be auction websites showing a work as unsold if the buyer didnโt pay. Shouldnโt be able to get away with pretending it sold. I fully agree but theyโre in no rush to do this, it would effect their sell through rate, and % of sales over high/mid estimate. Whilst the idea that the art market is wholly unregulated is a popular misunderstanding, certainly the way auction houses operate is well below the legal and moral standards of many other markets. Sothebys and Christieโs were already prosecuted for price fixing (their fees still look remarkably similar even following prosecution) however there is probably many other shady business practises that would come to light with a little more oversight. I guess when you sell a property, it should hit Land Registry within 6 months and you can see the price paid. Basically it gets logged and Iโm stunned that the same isnโt done in the art world. When you think they are the price of a small flat all the way up to huge mansions and yet art is not being publicly recorded and divulged. Every year I learn another truth regarding auction houses. To know all of this goes on in the top tiers pisses me off & when you think of the BP %โs they charge!!! Anyway rant over, for now โฆโฆโฆ.๐คฃ
One thing that would help surely would be auction websites showing a work as unsold if the buyer didnโt pay. Shouldnโt be able to get away with pretending it sold. I fully agree but theyโre in no rush to do this, it would effect their sell through rate, and % of sales over high/mid estimate. Whilst the idea that the art market is wholly unregulated is a popular misunderstanding, certainly the way auction houses operate is well below the legal and moral standards of many other markets. Sothebys and Christieโs were already prosecuted for price fixing (their fees still look remarkably similar even following prosecution) however there is probably many other shady business practises that would come to light with a little more oversight. I guess when you sell a property, it should hit Land Registry within 6 months and you can see the price paid. Basically it gets logged and Iโm stunned that the same isnโt done in the art world. When you think they are the price of a small flat all the way up to huge mansions and yet art is not being publicly recorded and divulged. Every year I learn another truth regarding auction houses. To know all of this goes on in the top tiers pisses me off & when you think of the BP %โs they charge!!! Anyway rant over, for now โฆโฆโฆ.๐คฃ
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sevrin
New Member
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Member is Online
February 2022
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Albert willem prices?, by sevrin on Apr 21, 2024 0:12:26 GMT 1, I fully agree but theyโre in no rush to do this, it would effect their sell through rate, and % of sales over high/mid estimate. Whilst the idea that the art market is wholly unregulated is a popular misunderstanding, certainly the way auction houses operate is well below the legal and moral standards of many other markets. Sothebys and Christieโs were already prosecuted for price fixing (their fees still look remarkably similar even following prosecution) however there is probably many other shady business practises that would come to light with a little more oversight. I guess when you sell a property, it should hit Land Registry within 6 months and you can see the price paid. Basically it gets logged and Iโm stunned that the same isnโt done in the art world. When you think they are the price of a small flat all the way up to huge mansions and yet art is not being publicly recorded and divulged. Every year I learn another truth regarding auction houses. To know all of this goes on in the top tiers pisses me off & when you think of the BP %โs they charge!!! Anyway rant over, for now โฆโฆโฆ.๐คฃ Appreciate your ranting...have a great sunday.......
I fully agree but theyโre in no rush to do this, it would effect their sell through rate, and % of sales over high/mid estimate. Whilst the idea that the art market is wholly unregulated is a popular misunderstanding, certainly the way auction houses operate is well below the legal and moral standards of many other markets. Sothebys and Christieโs were already prosecuted for price fixing (their fees still look remarkably similar even following prosecution) however there is probably many other shady business practises that would come to light with a little more oversight. I guess when you sell a property, it should hit Land Registry within 6 months and you can see the price paid. Basically it gets logged and Iโm stunned that the same isnโt done in the art world. When you think they are the price of a small flat all the way up to huge mansions and yet art is not being publicly recorded and divulged. Every year I learn another truth regarding auction houses. To know all of this goes on in the top tiers pisses me off & when you think of the BP %โs they charge!!! Anyway rant over, for now โฆโฆโฆ.๐คฃ Appreciate your ranting...have a great sunday.......
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LJCal
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,818
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December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 21, 2024 2:10:15 GMT 1, I fully agree but theyโre in no rush to do this, it would effect their sell through rate, and % of sales over high/mid estimate. Whilst the idea that the art market is wholly unregulated is a popular misunderstanding, certainly the way auction houses operate is well below the legal and moral standards of many other markets. Sothebys and Christieโs were already prosecuted for price fixing (their fees still look remarkably similar even following prosecution) however there is probably many other shady business practises that would come to light with a little more oversight. I guess when you sell a property, it should hit Land Registry within 6 months and you can see the price paid. Basically it gets logged and Iโm stunned that the same isnโt done in the art world. When you think they are the price of a small flat all the way up to huge mansions and yet art is not being publicly recorded and divulged. Every year I learn another truth regarding auction houses. To know all of this goes on in the top tiers pisses me off & when you think of the BP %โs they charge!!! Anyway rant over, for now โฆโฆโฆ.๐คฃ I think given the global nature of art, the fact that itโs portable and that anyone can crate a new work of art at any given time make it tough. They could introduce a public register of sales for works over a certain threshold sold by auction houses and art market participants, requiring them to register the terms of each sales alongside the buyer/seller details, it would be by no means comprehensive but would make frauds like this much more difficult. It would also however kill the market, billions would move out of the art market if this happened, anonymity and discretion are what makes art attractive. I expect what would happen is that most galleries and auction houses would setup in like Dubai and operate from there and places that introduced such a register would lose huge volumes of sales.
I fully agree but theyโre in no rush to do this, it would effect their sell through rate, and % of sales over high/mid estimate. Whilst the idea that the art market is wholly unregulated is a popular misunderstanding, certainly the way auction houses operate is well below the legal and moral standards of many other markets. Sothebys and Christieโs were already prosecuted for price fixing (their fees still look remarkably similar even following prosecution) however there is probably many other shady business practises that would come to light with a little more oversight. I guess when you sell a property, it should hit Land Registry within 6 months and you can see the price paid. Basically it gets logged and Iโm stunned that the same isnโt done in the art world. When you think they are the price of a small flat all the way up to huge mansions and yet art is not being publicly recorded and divulged. Every year I learn another truth regarding auction houses. To know all of this goes on in the top tiers pisses me off & when you think of the BP %โs they charge!!! Anyway rant over, for now โฆโฆโฆ.๐คฃ I think given the global nature of art, the fact that itโs portable and that anyone can crate a new work of art at any given time make it tough. They could introduce a public register of sales for works over a certain threshold sold by auction houses and art market participants, requiring them to register the terms of each sales alongside the buyer/seller details, it would be by no means comprehensive but would make frauds like this much more difficult. It would also however kill the market, billions would move out of the art market if this happened, anonymity and discretion are what makes art attractive. I expect what would happen is that most galleries and auction houses would setup in like Dubai and operate from there and places that introduced such a register would lose huge volumes of sales.
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klaus69
New Member
Posts โข 36
Likes โข 34
June 2020
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Albert willem prices?, by klaus69 on Apr 21, 2024 9:11:44 GMT 1, Just one of several investment pump and dumps which have been massive frauds. Willem, McCormick, Babaar, Ismail to name a few (some of these are still in the pump but ass will fall out soon). Here is the last auction result of Ismail. Someone paid a lot of money for this not so long ago: www.phillips.com/detail/isshaq-ismail/UK010324/130
Just one of several investment pump and dumps which have been massive frauds. Willem, McCormick, Babaar, Ismail to name a few (some of these are still in the pump but ass will fall out soon). Here is the last auction result of Ismail. Someone paid a lot of money for this not so long ago: www.phillips.com/detail/isshaq-ismail/UK010324/130
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Jimini Cricket
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,836
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December 2017
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Albert willem prices?, by Jimini Cricket on Apr 21, 2024 12:08:52 GMT 1, Surely there is a part of the speculator's brain that says, 'Thats a bit shite, innit?' But if all they see are dollar signs, then they deserve to get rinsed.
Surely there is a part of the speculator's brain that says, 'Thats a bit shite, innit?' But if all they see are dollar signs, then they deserve to get rinsed.
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LJCal
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,818
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December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 21, 2024 12:12:19 GMT 1, If anyone on here has been done by some of these investment galleries, Iโd recommend getting a lawyer involved and threaten them with a county court claim, reporting the company to trading standards, and involving the press. I would also threaten to report company and its directors to Police and SFO, the numbers run into the tens of millions and involve numerous high profile galleries and auction houses so if you can put together a coherent complaint they will absolutely investigate. You need to act quickly, undoubtably the companies they are trading in will be folded and the gains moved off shore in the not too distant future, I expect a whole load of people will also come forward now the shit is really hitting the fan and demand refunds. If you get in early you may be able to get some of your money back.
If anyone on here has been done by some of these investment galleries, Iโd recommend getting a lawyer involved and threaten them with a county court claim, reporting the company to trading standards, and involving the press. I would also threaten to report company and its directors to Police and SFO, the numbers run into the tens of millions and involve numerous high profile galleries and auction houses so if you can put together a coherent complaint they will absolutely investigate. You need to act quickly, undoubtably the companies they are trading in will be folded and the gains moved off shore in the not too distant future, I expect a whole load of people will also come forward now the shit is really hitting the fan and demand refunds. If you get in early you may be able to get some of your money back.
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LJCal
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,818
Likes โข 4,229
December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 21, 2024 12:18:25 GMT 1, Surely there is a part of the speculator's brain that says, 'Thats a bit shite, innit?' But if all they see are dollar signs, then they deserve to get rinsed. Yeah his art is garbage and Willems imo, but thereโs been a few others that could plausibly have a career. I donโt think anyone deserves to get screwed over like this, even if theyโre wealthy. Businesses should have some basic standards and if scheme like this are allowed to run it just makes business much harder for everybody. Itโs one thing to drive a hard bargain or trade on legitimately gained knowledge and come out the other side a big winner, thatโs being sharp, itโs totally another to deceive people even if itโs a greed trap.
Surely there is a part of the speculator's brain that says, 'Thats a bit shite, innit?' But if all they see are dollar signs, then they deserve to get rinsed. Yeah his art is garbage and Willems imo, but thereโs been a few others that could plausibly have a career. I donโt think anyone deserves to get screwed over like this, even if theyโre wealthy. Businesses should have some basic standards and if scheme like this are allowed to run it just makes business much harder for everybody. Itโs one thing to drive a hard bargain or trade on legitimately gained knowledge and come out the other side a big winner, thatโs being sharp, itโs totally another to deceive people even if itโs a greed trap.
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Jimini Cricket
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,836
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December 2017
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Albert willem prices?, by Jimini Cricket on Apr 21, 2024 12:19:52 GMT 1, If anyone on here has been done by some of these investment galleries, Iโd recommend getting a lawyer involved and threaten them with a county court claim, reporting the company to trading standards, and involving the press. I would also threaten to report company and its directors to Police and SFO, the numbers run into the tens of millions and involve numerous high profile galleries and auction houses so if you can put together a coherent complaint they will absolutely investigate. You need to act quickly, undoubtably the companies they are trading in will be folded and the gains moved off shore in the not too distant future, I expect a whole load of people will also come forward now the shit is really hitting the fan and demand refunds. If you get in early you may be able to get some of your money back. Hard to prove any crime has been committed. Buyers received what they paid for. Just as difficult to enforce multi year non-resale agreements. Caveat emptor.
If anyone on here has been done by some of these investment galleries, Iโd recommend getting a lawyer involved and threaten them with a county court claim, reporting the company to trading standards, and involving the press. I would also threaten to report company and its directors to Police and SFO, the numbers run into the tens of millions and involve numerous high profile galleries and auction houses so if you can put together a coherent complaint they will absolutely investigate. You need to act quickly, undoubtably the companies they are trading in will be folded and the gains moved off shore in the not too distant future, I expect a whole load of people will also come forward now the shit is really hitting the fan and demand refunds. If you get in early you may be able to get some of your money back. Hard to prove any crime has been committed. Buyers received what they paid for. Just as difficult to enforce multi year non-resale agreements. Caveat emptor.
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Jimini Cricket
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,836
Likes โข 1,206
December 2017
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Albert willem prices?, by Jimini Cricket on Apr 21, 2024 12:23:15 GMT 1, Surely there is a part of the speculator's brain that says, 'Thats a bit shite, innit?' But if all they see are dollar signs, then they deserve to get rinsed. Yeah his art is garbage and Willems imo, but thereโs been a few others that could plausibly have a career. I donโt think anyone deserves to get screwed over like this, even if theyโre wealthy. Businesses should have some basic standards and if scheme like this are allowed to run it just makes business much harder for everybody. Itโs one thing to drive a hard bargain or trade on legitimately gained knowledge and come out the other side a big winner, thatโs being sharp, itโs totally another to deceive people even if itโs a greed trap. At what point does it become the individual's responsibility? There is risk in all sorts of markets, even ones with information assymetry.
Surely there is a part of the speculator's brain that says, 'Thats a bit shite, innit?' But if all they see are dollar signs, then they deserve to get rinsed. Yeah his art is garbage and Willems imo, but thereโs been a few others that could plausibly have a career. I donโt think anyone deserves to get screwed over like this, even if theyโre wealthy. Businesses should have some basic standards and if scheme like this are allowed to run it just makes business much harder for everybody. Itโs one thing to drive a hard bargain or trade on legitimately gained knowledge and come out the other side a big winner, thatโs being sharp, itโs totally another to deceive people even if itโs a greed trap. At what point does it become the individual's responsibility? There is risk in all sorts of markets, even ones with information assymetry.
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LJCal
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,818
Likes โข 4,229
December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 21, 2024 12:45:07 GMT 1, If anyone on here has been done by some of these investment galleries, Iโd recommend getting a lawyer involved and threaten them with a county court claim, reporting the company to trading standards, and involving the press. I would also threaten to report company and its directors to Police and SFO, the numbers run into the tens of millions and involve numerous high profile galleries and auction houses so if you can put together a coherent complaint they will absolutely investigate. You need to act quickly, undoubtably the companies they are trading in will be folded and the gains moved off shore in the not too distant future, I expect a whole load of people will also come forward now the shit is really hitting the fan and demand refunds. If you get in early you may be able to get some of your money back. Hard to prove any crime has been committed. Buyers received what they paid for. Just as difficult to enforce multi year non-resale agreements. Caveat emptor. respectfully you don't know what you're talking about. Subpoenaing the auction houses and galleries and developing links that show shill bidding would be pretty straightforward, that's well within the powers of the SFO and Police.
If anyone on here has been done by some of these investment galleries, Iโd recommend getting a lawyer involved and threaten them with a county court claim, reporting the company to trading standards, and involving the press. I would also threaten to report company and its directors to Police and SFO, the numbers run into the tens of millions and involve numerous high profile galleries and auction houses so if you can put together a coherent complaint they will absolutely investigate. You need to act quickly, undoubtably the companies they are trading in will be folded and the gains moved off shore in the not too distant future, I expect a whole load of people will also come forward now the shit is really hitting the fan and demand refunds. If you get in early you may be able to get some of your money back. Hard to prove any crime has been committed. Buyers received what they paid for. Just as difficult to enforce multi year non-resale agreements. Caveat emptor. respectfully you don't know what you're talking about. Subpoenaing the auction houses and galleries and developing links that show shill bidding would be pretty straightforward, that's well within the powers of the SFO and Police.
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LJCal
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,818
Likes โข 4,229
December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 21, 2024 12:48:16 GMT 1, Yeah his art is garbage and Willems imo, but thereโs been a few others that could plausibly have a career. I donโt think anyone deserves to get screwed over like this, even if theyโre wealthy. Businesses should have some basic standards and if scheme like this are allowed to run it just makes business much harder for everybody. Itโs one thing to drive a hard bargain or trade on legitimately gained knowledge and come out the other side a big winner, thatโs being sharp, itโs totally another to deceive people even if itโs a greed trap. At what point does it become the individual's responsibility? There is risk in all sorts of markets, even ones with information assymetry. The point is when deception is used to make something appear more valuable that it is, that's fraud pure and simple. They could prosecute those involved under the Business Protection from Misleading Marketing Regulations and the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. They prosecuted this poor scmuck for bidding up a few ebay listings by a few grand: www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/apr/20/ebay-seller-convicted-auction-fixing
Yeah his art is garbage and Willems imo, but thereโs been a few others that could plausibly have a career. I donโt think anyone deserves to get screwed over like this, even if theyโre wealthy. Businesses should have some basic standards and if scheme like this are allowed to run it just makes business much harder for everybody. Itโs one thing to drive a hard bargain or trade on legitimately gained knowledge and come out the other side a big winner, thatโs being sharp, itโs totally another to deceive people even if itโs a greed trap. At what point does it become the individual's responsibility? There is risk in all sorts of markets, even ones with information assymetry. The point is when deception is used to make something appear more valuable that it is, that's fraud pure and simple. They could prosecute those involved under the Business Protection from Misleading Marketing Regulations and the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. They prosecuted this poor scmuck for bidding up a few ebay listings by a few grand: www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/apr/20/ebay-seller-convicted-auction-fixing
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Minecrafter
New Member
Posts โข 355
Likes โข 106
October 2021
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Albert willem prices?, by Minecrafter on Apr 21, 2024 13:38:14 GMT 1, At what point does it become the individual's responsibility? There is risk in all sorts of markets, even ones with information assymetry. The point is when deception is used to make something appear more valuable that it is, that's fraud pure and simple. They could prosecute those involved under the Business Protection from Misleading Marketing Regulations and the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. They prosecuted this poor scmuck for bidding up a few ebay listings by a few grand: www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/apr/20/ebay-seller-convicted-auction-fixing Kind of like Banksy then lance
At what point does it become the individual's responsibility? There is risk in all sorts of markets, even ones with information assymetry. The point is when deception is used to make something appear more valuable that it is, that's fraud pure and simple. They could prosecute those involved under the Business Protection from Misleading Marketing Regulations and the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. They prosecuted this poor scmuck for bidding up a few ebay listings by a few grand: www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/apr/20/ebay-seller-convicted-auction-fixingKind of like Banksy then lance
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LJCal
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,818
Likes โข 4,229
December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 21, 2024 14:15:04 GMT 1, The point is when deception is used to make something appear more valuable that it is, that's fraud pure and simple. They could prosecute those involved under the Business Protection from Misleading Marketing Regulations and the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. They prosecuted this poor scmuck for bidding up a few ebay listings by a few grand: www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/apr/20/ebay-seller-convicted-auction-fixingKind of like Banksy then lance Who lost money from the so called dategate then? The buyer who sold it for about 10X what they paid? As I've said before if you believe a fraud has been committed you should report it to the police, given you're not a victim or even know of a victim you'll likely struggle to get them to do anything. In fact Jamie didn't you say Banksy saved your life? Don't sound like a victim to me.... www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/banksy-saved-life---graffiti-5064543
The point is when deception is used to make something appear more valuable that it is, that's fraud pure and simple. They could prosecute those involved under the Business Protection from Misleading Marketing Regulations and the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. They prosecuted this poor scmuck for bidding up a few ebay listings by a few grand: www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/apr/20/ebay-seller-convicted-auction-fixingKind of like Banksy then lance Who lost money from the so called dategate then? The buyer who sold it for about 10X what they paid? As I've said before if you believe a fraud has been committed you should report it to the police, given you're not a victim or even know of a victim you'll likely struggle to get them to do anything. In fact Jamie didn't you say Banksy saved your life? Don't sound like a victim to me.... www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/banksy-saved-life---graffiti-5064543
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met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,685
Likes โข 6,305
June 2009
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Albert willem prices?, by met on Apr 21, 2024 15:05:20 GMT 1,
Nicely done, compound.
It may be helpful to spell things out a little more fully.
Thread excerpt below, but the entire thread could be viewed as a parable.
And almost a parody, because it's such a clichรฉ:
Fika, willem, ismail Donโt get caught up in the shills. Buy up cheap artists, shill them to high heaven and dump. Same bidders over and over again You can always rely on reading the same old negative drivel on here when an artistโs market takes off. His auction results have been extremely strong..it happens! Letโs review this in 2 years shall we? Also, keep an eye on Emerging Artist auctions and play guess the shilled
Your cautionary heads-up was perhaps less interesting than the damage-limitation effort to shut it down.
On the one side, the critical thinker, the independent who, seeing cause for concern, chooses to step up by ringing the alarm bell (thereby knowingly also exposing themselves as a potential target for attack):
"Hey, he's not wearing any clothes!"
On the other side, those who already bought in, now holding stock they're looking to offload onto other forum members for a nice profit. And goddamnit, they'll protect their interests by whatever tactics necessary:
"Hush, silly boy, with your negative drivel. Always the same with the likes of you. You know not of what you speak. His new clothes are magnificent!"
__________
Query if the informed and rational whistleblowers should be listened to (the UAA Frances Haugens or Erika Cheungs among us).
Or should they instead be disparaged, to discourage both them and others from posting inconvenient comments that might harm the financial value of artworks we're looking to dump in the near or distant future?
__________
When deciding upon the weight to attribute to different viewpoints expressed on this message board, it's worth considering the previous form and apparent motives of each author.
Those motives may even be transparent, e.g. altruistic in nature, or to hype/safeguard the author's own investments.
The simple question to ask is, Who benefits?
Separately, if any member wants a reasonably-good shorthand way of judging somebody's character, pay attention to how they react to criticism.
Whether it's criticism against them, or against the things they might have a vested interest in.
Nicely done, compound. It may be helpful to spell things out a little more fully. Thread excerpt below, but the entire thread could be viewed as a parable. And almost a parody, because it's such a clichรฉ: Fika, willem, ismail Donโt get caught up in the shills. Buy up cheap artists, shill them to high heaven and dump. Same bidders over and over again You can always rely on reading the same old negative drivel on here when an artistโs market takes off. His auction results have been extremely strong..it happens! Letโs review this in 2 years shall we? Also, keep an eye on Emerging Artist auctions and play guess the shilled Your cautionary heads-up was perhaps less interesting than the damage-limitation effort to shut it down. On the one side, the critical thinker, the independent who, seeing cause for concern, chooses to step up by ringing the alarm bell (thereby knowingly also exposing themselves as a potential target for attack): "Hey, he's not wearing any clothes!"On the other side, those who already bought in, now holding stock they're looking to offload onto other fo rum members for a nice profit. And goddamnit, they'll protect their interests by whatever tactics necessary: "Hush, silly boy, with your negative drivel. Always the same with the likes of you. You know not of what you speak. His new clothes are magnificent!"__________ Query if the informed and rational whistleblowers should be listened to (the UAA Frances Haugens or Erika Cheungs among us). Or should they instead be disparaged, to discourage both them and others from posting inconvenient comments that might harm the financial value of artworks we're looking to dump in the near or distant future? __________ When deciding upon the weight to attribute to different viewpoints expressed on this message board, it's worth considering the previous form and apparent motives of each author. Those motives may even be transparent, e.g. altruistic in nature, or to hype/safeguard the author's own investments. The simple question to ask is, Who benefits?Separately, if any member wants a reasonably-good shorthand way of judging somebody's character, pay attention to how they react to criticism. Whether it's criticism against them, or against the things they might have a vested interest in.
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