|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by alsbabar on Oct 2, 2008 16:29:30 GMT 1, 35% is the usual unsold items percentage for auctions, i would be more worried if only 35% sold
35% is the usual unsold items percentage for auctions, i would be more worried if only 35% sold
|
|
stjohn
New Member
Posts โข 255
Likes โข 19
April 2007
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by stjohn on Oct 2, 2008 16:32:12 GMT 1, Is it really that - 35%? Just seemed like a lot more did'nt go. The first Bonhams Urban Art auction did v well then as I recall.
Is it really that - 35%? Just seemed like a lot more did'nt go. The first Bonhams Urban Art auction did v well then as I recall.
|
|
Pattycakes
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,379
Likes โข 422
June 2007
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by Pattycakes on Oct 2, 2008 16:32:29 GMT 1, Frankly it's time to face facts: the bubble is bursting, if you look at the results of the sale, the material the sold was the established blue chip that has survived previous crashes, i.e. Old Masters, Picasso, Miro Chagall, Matisse etc. The postwar material was hit terribly, Warhol sold very poorly compaired to previous sales. This is all starting to look like th 89 crash. Am afraid to say that I only see prices going down even further, my advice, cut your losses, sell at a sensible profit now, before that goes too!
Frankly it's time to face facts: the bubble is bursting, if you look at the results of the sale, the material the sold was the established blue chip that has survived previous crashes, i.e. Old Masters, Picasso, Miro Chagall, Matisse etc. The postwar material was hit terribly, Warhol sold very poorly compaired to previous sales. This is all starting to look like th 89 crash. Am afraid to say that I only see prices going down even further, my advice, cut your losses, sell at a sensible profit now, before that goes too!
|
|
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by arcam on Oct 2, 2008 16:36:10 GMT 1, If you ask me Art is looking a better investment with each passing day.
If you ask me Art is looking a better investment with each passing day.
|
|
Pattycakes
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,379
Likes โข 422
June 2007
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by Pattycakes on Oct 2, 2008 16:36:23 GMT 1, Sotheby's usually has a 90% sell thorugh rate in their print sales, they will not be happy with this result at all. A good indicator of the market is the prices the Munchs made, they have been by far the most expensive prints for the past 4 /5 years, keenly fought over by a group of Nowegians and Americans. The prices for those that sold were very flat - and these are top of the market items.
Sotheby's usually has a 90% sell thorugh rate in their print sales, they will not be happy with this result at all. A good indicator of the market is the prices the Munchs made, they have been by far the most expensive prints for the past 4 /5 years, keenly fought over by a group of Nowegians and Americans. The prices for those that sold were very flat - and these are top of the market items.
|
|
stjohn
New Member
Posts โข 255
Likes โข 19
April 2007
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by stjohn on Oct 2, 2008 16:37:40 GMT 1, Bonhams in Feb was 96% sold!! What will happen on 23rd though? I predict 70%.
Bonhams in Feb was 96% sold!! What will happen on 23rd though? I predict 70%.
|
|
|
Pattycakes
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,379
Likes โข 422
June 2007
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by Pattycakes on Oct 2, 2008 16:40:20 GMT 1, 70%, I think is optimistic, I think it'll be worse, I am afraid that the buyers for Banksy are in the majority those who are being hit the hardest in the recession (or credit crunch - for those who don't like the R word)
70%, I think is optimistic, I think it'll be worse, I am afraid that the buyers for Banksy are in the majority those who are being hit the hardest in the recession (or credit crunch - for those who don't like the R word)
|
|
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by alsbabar on Oct 2, 2008 16:44:07 GMT 1, i believe that mixing urban with contemporary is hit and miss - as the crowd is also hit and mix - urban art auctions do well as it appeals to a certain person. I think the bottom line is, Banksy doesnt have the contemporary pull yet.
I would agree with arcam - art is looking better each day
i believe that mixing urban with contemporary is hit and miss - as the crowd is also hit and mix - urban art auctions do well as it appeals to a certain person. I think the bottom line is, Banksy doesnt have the contemporary pull yet.
I would agree with arcam - art is looking better each day
|
|
Pattycakes
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,379
Likes โข 422
June 2007
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by Pattycakes on Oct 2, 2008 16:46:08 GMT 1, I agree, art certainly is a good investment at the moment, but not Urban, I've put most of my money in to post war Modern British, and European master prints a far, far safer market.
I agree, art certainly is a good investment at the moment, but not Urban, I've put most of my money in to post war Modern British, and European master prints a far, far safer market.
|
|
stjohn
New Member
Posts โข 255
Likes โข 19
April 2007
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by stjohn on Oct 2, 2008 16:47:46 GMT 1, Safe = potentially less return though. But, it depends on your exposure though I guess.
Safe = potentially less return though. But, it depends on your exposure though I guess.
|
|
Pattycakes
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,379
Likes โข 422
June 2007
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by Pattycakes on Oct 2, 2008 16:48:48 GMT 1, ahh not necessarily, it helps if you're able to find sleepers!
ahh not necessarily, it helps if you're able to find sleepers!
|
|
stjohn
New Member
Posts โข 255
Likes โข 19
April 2007
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by stjohn on Oct 2, 2008 16:51:01 GMT 1, Minus the sleepers you have up your sleeve and would obviously keep secret, do you mind disclosing what sort of stuff is in your post war Modern British, and European master prints collection?
Minus the sleepers you have up your sleeve and would obviously keep secret, do you mind disclosing what sort of stuff is in your post war Modern British, and European master prints collection?
|
|
Pattycakes
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,379
Likes โข 422
June 2007
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by Pattycakes on Oct 2, 2008 16:57:12 GMT 1, a mixed bag, amongst other things I suppose the standout things are couple of Picasso etchings, a few Miro etchings, a Ben Nicholson, a few Richard Hamiltons, 2 Grosvenor School linocuts (though sadly I can't afford these any longer) an auerbach drawing from the 50's, stuff like that. I do collect contemporary but it's much more selective now, Dzama is about the newest artist I own anything by any more.
a mixed bag, amongst other things I suppose the standout things are couple of Picasso etchings, a few Miro etchings, a Ben Nicholson, a few Richard Hamiltons, 2 Grosvenor School linocuts (though sadly I can't afford these any longer) an auerbach drawing from the 50's, stuff like that. I do collect contemporary but it's much more selective now, Dzama is about the newest artist I own anything by any more.
|
|
pfffffffffft
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,472
Likes โข 1,016
July 2008
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by pfffffffffft on Oct 2, 2008 16:57:54 GMT 1, For clarification it's been around a 10 to 20% unsold rate before the economy went surly. Over the past few auctions across multiple houses it's looking like the unsold rate has doubled to around 35%.
It appears the economic issues likely caused the unsold rate to average around this new number of 35%, however unless something else significant happens in the markets, expect to see this number stay around here until the economy starts getting better.
For clarification it's been around a 10 to 20% unsold rate before the economy went surly. Over the past few auctions across multiple houses it's looking like the unsold rate has doubled to around 35%.
It appears the economic issues likely caused the unsold rate to average around this new number of 35%, however unless something else significant happens in the markets, expect to see this number stay around here until the economy starts getting better.
|
|
|
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by snausages on Oct 2, 2008 17:10:53 GMT 1, 35% is the average? Is that opinion or is someone talking out their arse
I think 35% is a lot higher than average based on my experience. And if the unsold average at one of the top two auction houses in the world is at 40% in this climate I wonder what the average might be at a sub par auction house with sub par lots?
Anyway, if you socked away some money looks like you might be able to get some good buys now that the good times are over. Just don't expect a return to runaway prices for years imo.
35% is the average? Is that opinion or is someone talking out their arse I think 35% is a lot higher than average based on my experience. And if the unsold average at one of the top two auction houses in the world is at 40% in this climate I wonder what the average might be at a sub par auction house with sub par lots? Anyway, if you socked away some money looks like you might be able to get some good buys now that the good times are over. Just don't expect a return to runaway prices for years imo.
|
|
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by alsbabar on Oct 2, 2008 17:16:56 GMT 1, you are so predictable snausages, you bought the bait you dumbf**k
no one cares for your opinion - now shoooooo, jog on
off to the Dface show now - see some of you lovely people there, snausages if you are there - make sure you wear your Geek badge, so we can all point at you and laugh
you are so predictable snausages, you bought the bait you dumbf**k
no one cares for your opinion - now shoooooo, jog on
off to the Dface show now - see some of you lovely people there, snausages if you are there - make sure you wear your Geek badge, so we can all point at you and laugh
|
|
Winter
Junior Member
Posts โข 7,139
Likes โข 4,444
March 2007
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by Winter on Oct 2, 2008 17:44:18 GMT 1, A good art buying tip is to go for works by people nearing the end of their life. Cruel I know but then so is life.
A good art buying tip is to go for works by people nearing the end of their life. Cruel I know but then so is life.
|
|
stjohn
New Member
Posts โข 255
Likes โข 19
April 2007
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by stjohn on Oct 2, 2008 17:44:46 GMT 1, a mixed bag, amongst other things I suppose the standout things are couple of Picasso etchings, a few Miro etchings, a Ben Nicholson, a few Richard Hamiltons, 2 Grosvenor School linocuts (though sadly I can't afford these any longer) an auerbach drawing from the 50's, stuff like that. I do collect contemporary but it's much more selective now, Dzama is about the newest artist I own anything by any more.
Sounds good. I like Frank's work. Dzama looks interesting too: been keeping an eye out! Don't know Nicholson or Hamilton..
a mixed bag, amongst other things I suppose the standout things are couple of Picasso etchings, a few Miro etchings, a Ben Nicholson, a few Richard Hamiltons, 2 Grosvenor School linocuts (though sadly I can't afford these any longer) an auerbach drawing from the 50's, stuff like that. I do collect contemporary but it's much more selective now, Dzama is about the newest artist I own anything by any more. Sounds good. I like Frank's work. Dzama looks interesting too: been keeping an eye out! Don't know Nicholson or Hamilton..
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by lee3 on Oct 2, 2008 17:58:55 GMT 1, >>>I think it's not that well publicised for people looking to buy urban art, think the dreweatts and bonhams sales will be the focus of the majority of the public. <<<
I would put Dreweatts so far down the ladder for results it's not even close. If Sotheby's and Chsitie's sales show decline, Dreweatts will be a complete disaster. The art market (like so many other markets) has long been overdue for a correction so I see this as healthy. We will certainly see the weakness in the print markets fist and if the buy in ratio was a lot higher today as someone posted than the same sale last fall, that is not a good sign of things to come.
>>>I think it's not that well publicised for people looking to buy urban art, think the dreweatts and bonhams sales will be the focus of the majority of the public. <<<
I would put Dreweatts so far down the ladder for results it's not even close. If Sotheby's and Chsitie's sales show decline, Dreweatts will be a complete disaster. The art market (like so many other markets) has long been overdue for a correction so I see this as healthy. We will certainly see the weakness in the print markets fist and if the buy in ratio was a lot higher today as someone posted than the same sale last fall, that is not a good sign of things to come.
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by lee3 on Oct 2, 2008 18:02:34 GMT 1, >>>A good art buying tip is to go for works by people nearing the end of their life. Cruel I know but then so is life. <<<
Based on what? I've researched this pretty well and OFTEN an artist's prices decline by a good 20% in the short term after death because the market gets flooded with supply and/or you have an estate or foundation that does a poor job of handling all of the work that went unsold during the artist's lifetime. Obviously, if you're at Rauschenberg's level, I would agree but Sam Francis wasn't far below him and his prices were decimated upon his death. And they still lag in many cases prices that were obtained during his life. There are just too many variables (like multiple ex wives in Sam Francis' case) to make a blanket statement like that.
>>>A good art buying tip is to go for works by people nearing the end of their life. Cruel I know but then so is life. <<<
Based on what? I've researched this pretty well and OFTEN an artist's prices decline by a good 20% in the short term after death because the market gets flooded with supply and/or you have an estate or foundation that does a poor job of handling all of the work that went unsold during the artist's lifetime. Obviously, if you're at Rauschenberg's level, I would agree but Sam Francis wasn't far below him and his prices were decimated upon his death. And they still lag in many cases prices that were obtained during his life. There are just too many variables (like multiple ex wives in Sam Francis' case) to make a blanket statement like that.
|
|
Winter
Junior Member
Posts โข 7,139
Likes โข 4,444
March 2007
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by Winter on Oct 2, 2008 18:51:11 GMT 1, It was a flippant comment but thanks for highlighting areas where this isn't the case. You do however refer to the decline in the short term. What about long term?
It was a flippant comment but thanks for highlighting areas where this isn't the case. You do however refer to the decline in the short term. What about long term?
|
|
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by snausages on Oct 2, 2008 18:57:15 GMT 1, If Sotheby's and Chsitie's sales show decline, Dreweatts will be a complete disaster. So sub par auction houses so to speak might do worse than the big two? Radical thinking!
Interesting, Rauschenberg would be a good one to study then, I've noticed people have been asking more for his prints now, although I don't know if they've been getting their higher prices. Haven't paid much attention to his originals as they're unfortunately out of my league.
- Thanks for your input.
If Sotheby's and Chsitie's sales show decline, Dreweatts will be a complete disaster. So sub par auction houses so to speak might do worse than the big two? Radical thinking! Interesting, Rauschenberg would be a good one to study then, I've noticed people have been asking more for his prints now, although I don't know if they've been getting their higher prices. Haven't paid much attention to his originals as they're unfortunately out of my league. - Thanks for your input.
|
|
|
lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by lee3 on Oct 2, 2008 19:29:22 GMT 1, >>>You do however refer to the decline in the short term. What about long term? <<<
You tell me. It's entirely artist specific and my guess would be that 99.9999% of art loses value upon the artist's death becasue the artist simply is not marketing their work anymore and most artists go unnoticed by society anyway. For the lucky 1% of artist's that make 99% of the money, many of them obviously have huge appreciation posthumously. But, even within that 1%, there are often foundations and other arrangments (children and ex spouses) that can hurt the price in the short term (5 years after death). If an artist's work is strong enough that we're still discussing it 10 years after death, than you're absolutely right that it would be a good buy financially. My caution still stands however; buying the work of an established artist just because he or she is old is not necessarily a wise move financially for reasons completely out of your control.
Now that the finance BS is out of the way, in the end, you simply have to buy what you love for artistic enjoyment. I wouldn't give priority in this area to anyone just because they are on the back nine of their career.
>>>You do however refer to the decline in the short term. What about long term? <<<
You tell me. It's entirely artist specific and my guess would be that 99.9999% of art loses value upon the artist's death becasue the artist simply is not marketing their work anymore and most artists go unnoticed by society anyway. For the lucky 1% of artist's that make 99% of the money, many of them obviously have huge appreciation posthumously. But, even within that 1%, there are often foundations and other arrangments (children and ex spouses) that can hurt the price in the short term (5 years after death). If an artist's work is strong enough that we're still discussing it 10 years after death, than you're absolutely right that it would be a good buy financially. My caution still stands however; buying the work of an established artist just because he or she is old is not necessarily a wise move financially for reasons completely out of your control.
Now that the finance BS is out of the way, in the end, you simply have to buy what you love for artistic enjoyment. I wouldn't give priority in this area to anyone just because they are on the back nine of their career.
|
|
Simococo
Junior Member
Posts โข 3,143
Likes โข 368
April 2007
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by Simococo on Oct 2, 2008 19:35:15 GMT 1, thank god the bubble is bursting affordable street art just the way it should be
thank god the bubble is bursting affordable street art just the way it should be
|
|
aginghippie
New Member
Posts โข 211
Likes โข 0
December 2007
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by aginghippie on Oct 2, 2008 20:23:37 GMT 1, There were five Warhol Queen Elizabeth II's (I'm looking for one to pair with a Turf War print) in that auction and they all hit the mid-point of their estimates. The auctioneers can price these pretty accurately because they have a history whereas the Banksy and similar prints lack that record. It means you are more likely to get a bargain on the new works but equally the price will be much more variable.
There were five Warhol Queen Elizabeth II's (I'm looking for one to pair with a Turf War print) in that auction and they all hit the mid-point of their estimates. The auctioneers can price these pretty accurately because they have a history whereas the Banksy and similar prints lack that record. It means you are more likely to get a bargain on the new works but equally the price will be much more variable.
|
|
pfffffffffft
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,472
Likes โข 1,016
July 2008
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by pfffffffffft on Oct 2, 2008 20:32:41 GMT 1, 35% is the average? Is that opinion or is someone talking out their arse I think 35% is a lot higher than average based on my experience. And if the unsold average at one of the top two auction houses in the world is at 40% in this climate I wonder what the average might be at a sub par auction house with sub par lots? Anyway, if you socked away some money looks like you might be able to get some good buys now that the good times are over. Just don't expect a return to runaway prices for years imo.
Hey knucklehead. Your "experience" has proven pretty meaningless, as all of your talking out of your ass showed when you didnt take the wager, remember, put up or shut up? We just went through this in the other thread, I went through and totaled a bunch of different recent auction results different types of sales and different houses, different calibers of houses including L & T to Sothebys and Christies, and they were averaging 35%
Please proceed swiftly to another board and pick up your steaming pile of s**t award.
35% is the average? Is that opinion or is someone talking out their arse I think 35% is a lot higher than average based on my experience. And if the unsold average at one of the top two auction houses in the world is at 40% in this climate I wonder what the average might be at a sub par auction house with sub par lots? Anyway, if you socked away some money looks like you might be able to get some good buys now that the good times are over. Just don't expect a return to runaway prices for years imo. Hey knucklehead. Your "experience" has proven pretty meaningless, as all of your talking out of your ass showed when you didnt take the wager, remember, put up or shut up? We just went through this in the other thread, I went through and totaled a bunch of different recent auction results different types of sales and different houses, different calibers of houses including L & T to Sothebys and Christies, and they were averaging 35% Please proceed swiftly to another board and pick up your steaming pile of s**t award.
|
|
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by worlddomination on Oct 2, 2008 20:53:49 GMT 1, Some people collect junk bonds, some people collect share certificates, some treasury bills and so on. Statisticians can provide you with information as to what has happened, what will happen and what may happen. For the most part it based on one persons research compared to another persons research. Art is also collected by people and behind those people are another load of statisticians. One thing is for sure, they will all go up and down in value, that much is fact. At least with art you can get some enjoyment from it on the wall. That's my take.
Some people collect junk bonds, some people collect share certificates, some treasury bills and so on. Statisticians can provide you with information as to what has happened, what will happen and what may happen. For the most part it based on one persons research compared to another persons research. Art is also collected by people and behind those people are another load of statisticians. One thing is for sure, they will all go up and down in value, that much is fact. At least with art you can get some enjoyment from it on the wall. That's my take.
|
|
Simococo
Junior Member
Posts โข 3,143
Likes โข 368
April 2007
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by Simococo on Oct 2, 2008 21:05:31 GMT 1, je concur
je concur
|
|
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by worlddomination on Oct 2, 2008 21:15:58 GMT 1, Gracias
Gracias
|
|
|
SOTHEBY'S PRINT SALE OCT 2ND , by snausages on Oct 2, 2008 21:17:34 GMT 1, So plfft, are you saying you don't think that lower tier auction houses would have a worse buy in rate than top tier auction houses? I suppose reserves have no impact on unsold lots either. Nor do the quality of the lots? oi...
But whatever. If you want to discuss a wager we need to both agree on the terms, any idiot would understand that. PM me and we can discuss it further if you really want. Because I doubt the forum appreciates you dragging yet another thread through the mud again with your ridiculous and lopsided terms all in your quest to 'prove me wrong' any chance you get.
But continue to make an ass of yourself anytime you wish.
So plfft, are you saying you don't think that lower tier auction houses would have a worse buy in rate than top tier auction houses? I suppose reserves have no impact on unsold lots either. Nor do the quality of the lots? oi...
But whatever. If you want to discuss a wager we need to both agree on the terms, any idiot would understand that. PM me and we can discuss it further if you really want. Because I doubt the forum appreciates you dragging yet another thread through the mud again with your ridiculous and lopsided terms all in your quest to 'prove me wrong' any chance you get.
But continue to make an ass of yourself anytime you wish.
|
|