goffy
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November 2006
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Happy St. George's Day, by goffy on Apr 24, 2008 10:56:29 GMT 1, It wasn't meant to Mike. I was just posting my two cents worth.
It wasn't meant to Mike. I was just posting my two cents worth.
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teatwosugars
New Member
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October 2006
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Happy St. George's Day, by teatwosugars on Apr 24, 2008 12:59:27 GMT 1, I don't understand pride in a nation, so I'm just interested to hear where that pride comes from. I fail to see how being born in a particular country automatically demands some sort of inherent pride in it. Is it in the people of the country, past achievements, simply geographical or something else? I'm proud of my family and friends and of their achievements but can't see how or why I should extend that to a whole nation. If it's in the people, I've haven't met them all and seem to have little in common with a great deal of them. Sure there have been great achievements by English people, but can those achievements really be attributed to the fact they were/are English. If it's down to past achievements, how far back does that pride go. WW2 I can understand, people of this country (and a number of other countries) sacrificed a lot to face fascism and I'm proud of my grandparents for making such commitments but if you want to go further back there's colonialism, slavery and genocide. Plus the UK's current foreign policy is little to be proud of. If it's down to simple geographical position of where you were born then I certainly don't have a clue as the weather is sh it here. Don't get me wrong, I like living in England, I have a safe and comfortable life-style living here, but I'm pretty sure a lot of the comfort and wealth we take for granted is built on the back of exploitation of others in the past and present. I appear to be in the minority on this so enlighten me (and please don't refer to winning the World Cup 42 years ago...) ;D
I like your post Andy as you have raised some interesting points that have certainly got me thinking.
As much as some things in this country annoy the fuck out of me I am still very patriotic. You say that a lot of the comfort and wealth we take for granted comes from explotation. That may be a small part of the reason, but at the same time things were different back then and things change. For me, this country and its people have grown and prospered due to its hard work and advances in science, medicine, industry, technology, art, music etc. Yes it could be argued that those achievements were not neccessarily down to being English, but I would disagree with this. The people who have aided this prosperity and growth were, on the most part, educated, developed and influenced by those around them in this country (obviously more so further back in history than now).
I also feel that, despite what the media would have us believe, we live in one of the most tolerable, harmonious and multi-cultural countries on the planet. We are a nation who pulls together in times of need and strives on no matter what. I'm glad you mentioned WW2 as this is a great example- another one for me was the London bombings.
I wouldn't say I'm extensively travelled, but I have stayed in many other countries, and although I have enjoyed my time there I have always felt a longing to return home, to the people and culture in which I have grown up in (even if it's something daft like having a proper good cuppa! ). I love our weather, and although I would prefer it to be a bit sunnier I wouldn't swap it for a baking hot climate (especially as I don't think we'd have the beautiful green landscapes in this country if it was a hotter climate).
George Orwell defined patriotism as 'devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally.'
I like this quote. Hopefully it and my thoughts may give you some small enlightenment as to why people like myself feel patriotic or have that sense of pride, though at the same time I completely understand the way you feel. Each to their own as always.
Oh, and one more reason- we won the World Cup 42 years ago ;D
I don't understand pride in a nation, so I'm just interested to hear where that pride comes from. I fail to see how being born in a particular country automatically demands some sort of inherent pride in it. Is it in the people of the country, past achievements, simply geographical or something else? I'm proud of my family and friends and of their achievements but can't see how or why I should extend that to a whole nation. If it's in the people, I've haven't met them all and seem to have little in common with a great deal of them. Sure there have been great achievements by English people, but can those achievements really be attributed to the fact they were/are English. If it's down to past achievements, how far back does that pride go. WW2 I can understand, people of this country (and a number of other countries) sacrificed a lot to face fascism and I'm proud of my grandparents for making such commitments but if you want to go further back there's colonialism, slavery and genocide. Plus the UK's current foreign policy is little to be proud of. If it's down to simple geographical position of where you were born then I certainly don't have a clue as the weather is sh it here. Don't get me wrong, I like living in England, I have a safe and comfortable life-style living here, but I'm pretty sure a lot of the comfort and wealth we take for granted is built on the back of exploitation of others in the past and present. I appear to be in the minority on this so enlighten me (and please don't refer to winning the World Cup 42 years ago...) ;D I like your post Andy as you have raised some interesting points that have certainly got me thinking. As much as some things in this country annoy the fu ck out of me I am still very patriotic. You say that a lot of the comfort and wealth we take for granted comes from explotation. That may be a small part of the reason, but at the same time things were different back then and things change. For me, this country and its people have grown and prospered due to its hard work and advances in science, medicine, industry, technology, art, music etc. Yes it could be argued that those achievements were not neccessarily down to being English, but I would disagree with this. The people who have aided this prosperity and growth were, on the most part, educated, developed and influenced by those around them in this country (obviously more so further back in history than now). I also feel that, despite what the media would have us believe, we live in one of the most tolerable, harmonious and multi-cultural countries on the planet. We are a nation who pulls together in times of need and strives on no matter what. I'm glad you mentioned WW2 as this is a great example- another one for me was the London bombings. I wouldn't say I'm extensively travelled, but I have stayed in many other countries, and although I have enjoyed my time there I have always felt a longing to return home, to the people and culture in which I have grown up in (even if it's something daft like having a proper good cuppa! ). I love our weather, and although I would prefer it to be a bit sunnier I wouldn't swap it for a baking hot climate (especially as I don't think we'd have the beautiful green landscapes in this country if it was a hotter climate). George Orwell defined patriotism as 'devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally.'I like this quote. Hopefully it and my thoughts may give you some small enlightenment as to why people like myself feel patriotic or have that sense of pride, though at the same time I completely understand the way you feel. Each to their own as always. Oh, and one more reason- we won the World Cup 42 years ago ;D
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Rude Copper
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,048
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November 2006
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Happy St. George's Day, by Rude Copper on Apr 24, 2008 13:34:04 GMT 1, like that, good answer, tts.
like that, good answer, tts.
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Andy'77
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,342
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November 2006
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Happy St. George's Day, by Andy'77 on Apr 24, 2008 13:50:55 GMT 1, Cheers, Teatwosugars. That was the kind of well composed response I was hoping for and while I agree with a number of points I don't neccessarily equate them to why pride should be applied on a national level. Appreciating the achievements you mention I feel shouldn't be defined by nationality.
I think maybe I am kind of reactionary against quotes like those of Ross: "Once we flaunted it in the face of the whole world like a banner. It was a word of Power & Respect." That comes across as arrogant and threatening with an air of superioty. That in particular is an image I'm entirely uncomfortable with. Historically I would say it's extremely negative. It's also a kind of blind patriotism that people often seem to adhere to without questioning the action of a nation. Nowadays, it's corporations who do most of the exploiting rather than our government but we all still benefit greatly but that's an entirely different subject.
As I've said, I like living in England and I'm also happy to return home after being abroad but feel that is more due to missing friends and family and the comfortable familiarity of home rather than the country in which it is based.
I just find patriotism a hard pill to swallow, pledging allegience to a nation defined by an abstract line on a map, a history I had no part in or a population for a large part I don't feel a specific connection to.... Maybe being a fan of sport makes you feel more patriotic...
Cheers, Teatwosugars. That was the kind of well composed response I was hoping for and while I agree with a number of points I don't neccessarily equate them to why pride should be applied on a national level. Appreciating the achievements you mention I feel shouldn't be defined by nationality. I think maybe I am kind of reactionary against quotes like those of Ross: "Once we flaunted it in the face of the whole world like a banner. It was a word of Power & Respect." That comes across as arrogant and threatening with an air of superioty. That in particular is an image I'm entirely uncomfortable with. Historically I would say it's extremely negative. It's also a kind of blind patriotism that people often seem to adhere to without questioning the action of a nation. Nowadays, it's corporations who do most of the exploiting rather than our government but we all still benefit greatly but that's an entirely different subject. As I've said, I like living in England and I'm also happy to return home after being abroad but feel that is more due to missing friends and family and the comfortable familiarity of home rather than the country in which it is based. I just find patriotism a hard pill to swallow, pledging allegience to a nation defined by an abstract line on a map, a history I had no part in or a population for a large part I don't feel a specific connection to.... Maybe being a fan of sport makes you feel more patriotic...
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Happy St. George's Day, by manchestermike on Apr 24, 2008 13:58:53 GMT 1, Maybe being a fan of sport makes you feel more patriotic...
I'd argue it doesn't... I'm a huge sport fan but cannot stand the England football team (I'll support England in cricket / rugby etc though )
... maybe that's because I don't have a strong allegiance to a cricket or rugby team though
Maybe being a fan of sport makes you feel more patriotic... I'd argue it doesn't... I'm a huge sport fan but cannot stand the England football team (I'll support England in cricket / rugby etc though ) ... maybe that's because I don't have a strong allegiance to a cricket or rugby team though
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goffy
Junior Member
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November 2006
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Happy St. George's Day, by goffy on Apr 24, 2008 15:23:53 GMT 1, Andy77 you seem to be happy in your own little insular world and that's fine, but patriotism is nothing to be ashamed of. It's only when patriotism is used a weapon to use against other people that it becomes a dirty word. England is not and has never been perfect which can be said for most other countries as well. Your country is defined by the people and the individuals that make up those people, some achieve greatness, some don't. Am I proud that Shakespeare et al were English, of course, why shouldn't I be? But England and the English and made up from many different races, creed and colours and when it works it works brilliantly, but as I said we are not perfect but we are a damn site better than a lot of places.
Andy77 you seem to be happy in your own little insular world and that's fine, but patriotism is nothing to be ashamed of. It's only when patriotism is used a weapon to use against other people that it becomes a dirty word. England is not and has never been perfect which can be said for most other countries as well. Your country is defined by the people and the individuals that make up those people, some achieve greatness, some don't. Am I proud that Shakespeare et al were English, of course, why shouldn't I be? But England and the English and made up from many different races, creed and colours and when it works it works brilliantly, but as I said we are not perfect but we are a damn site better than a lot of places.
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robinbanks
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,319
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October 2007
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Happy St. George's Day, by robinbanks on Apr 24, 2008 15:31:27 GMT 1, Maybe being a fan of sport makes you feel more patriotic... I'd argue it doesn't... I'm a huge sport fan but cannot stand the England football team (I'll support England in cricket / rugby etc though ) ... maybe that's because I don't have a strong allegiance to a cricket or rugby team though
Or maybe it's because your a Man United fan, a breed of people who in my experience seem to think they're above supporting England and have nothing but disdain for our national team (which I personally attribute to you lot being brainwashed by a red-nosed Scot for the last god knows how many years).
Maybe being a fan of sport makes you feel more patriotic... I'd argue it doesn't... I'm a huge sport fan but cannot stand the England football team (I'll support England in cricket / rugby etc though ) ... maybe that's because I don't have a strong allegiance to a cricket or rugby team though Or maybe it's because your a Man United fan, a breed of people who in my experience seem to think they're above supporting England and have nothing but disdain for our national team (which I personally attribute to you lot being brainwashed by a red-nosed Scot for the last god knows how many years).
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