bernsteiner
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on Sept 30, 2022 7:29:03 GMT 1, Dear community, dear Banksy lovers and collectors,
it's a long time ago since I started this thread. The world changed, the clamp not.
Based on all my efforts in reconstructing the story of the clamp I wrote a book about it (German):
Wie man (k)einen Banksy online kauft. Echter Fake oder gefaktes Original (ISBN 978-3-347-71173-0)
Englisch: How (not) to buy a banksy online - real fake or faked original
I combined all facts I found to develop a clear picture from the first "Heavy Weaponary" in Bristol, the Rivington Bridge in Shoreditch in 2000 and the ongoing discussion if street art belongs into museums and private hands.. open end.
Is Dr Plip back on the screen here? I quoted his brilliant story . Thanks for it again.
You are welcome to read the first pages here: shop.tredition.com/booktitle/Wie_man_keinen_Banksy_online_kauft/W-390-104-042
Maybe I can follow up with an English translation later.
Feel free with posting your critics.
Dear community, dear Banksy lovers and collectors, it's a long time ago since I started this thread. The world changed, the clamp not. Based on all my efforts in reconstructing the story of the clamp I wrote a book about it (German): Wie man (k)einen Banksy online kauft. Echter Fake oder gefaktes Original ( ISBN 978-3-347-71173-0) Englisch: How (not) to buy a banksy online - real fake or faked original I combined all facts I found to develop a clear picture from the first "Heavy Weaponary" in Bristol, the Rivington Bridge in Shoreditch in 2000 and the ongoing discussion if street art belongs into museums and private hands.. open end. Is Dr Plip back on the screen here? I quoted his brilliant story . Thanks for it again. You are welcome to read the first pages here: shop.tredition.com/booktitle/Wie_man_keinen_Banksy_online_kauft/W-390-104-042Maybe I can follow up with an English translation later. Feel free with posting your critics.
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bernsteiner
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on Aug 29, 2020 21:11:10 GMT 1, The time goes by, the clamp not (and this great board not, too). It's still in my sight.. beatiful, inspiring. Even It's not self-destructive or swimming to help others it proves its intrinsic value everyday I look at it.
Actually my story about it is (changing every bunch of months): he was drunk when painting it and can't remember (or just don't commit to it to all the street art market blabla reasons).
I read all the thread this evening again. I love it. Thanks to all you guys for your contributions to it. I'll keep you posted if something changes.
Do you remember what B. said in Exit through the gift shop about his street art pieces? Something like .. maybe some day I'm happy that people stole my art from the street to conserve it.
P.s. since we filled this thread years have passed. Did anybody got the reply "It's fake" by pest control since then?
The time goes by, the clamp not (and this great board not, too). It's still in my sight.. beatiful, inspiring. Even It's not self-destructive or swimming to help others it proves its intrinsic value everyday I look at it.
Actually my story about it is (changing every bunch of months): he was drunk when painting it and can't remember (or just don't commit to it to all the street art market blabla reasons).
I read all the thread this evening again. I love it. Thanks to all you guys for your contributions to it. I'll keep you posted if something changes.
Do you remember what B. said in Exit through the gift shop about his street art pieces? Something like .. maybe some day I'm happy that people stole my art from the street to conserve it.
P.s. since we filled this thread years have passed. Did anybody got the reply "It's fake" by pest control since then?
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bernsteiner
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on Jun 26, 2017 9:02:06 GMT 1, Interesting read:
Banksy and Fellow Street Artists Are Refusing to Fuel the Market for Paintings Taken from the Streets www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-banksy-fellow-street-artists-refusing-fuel-market-paintings-streets
"if Banksy were to authorize the work it would set a precedent, “that works intended for the street, after they’re removed, still have value.” And that’s not a precedent, ... that artists like Banksy want to support. Day elaborates: “There’s kind of a black market that’s emerged for paintings removed from the street, and artists don’t want to encourage it by legitimizing those paintings.” While selling works uprooted from the streets isn’t technically illegal, the process does pose some serious ethical quandaries. Not only do most street artists disapprove of the removal of their works from their original context, but they also don’t see any of the profit made from the sales."
Interesting read: Banksy and Fellow Street Artists Are Refusing to Fuel the Market for Paintings Taken from the Streets www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-banksy-fellow-street-artists-refusing-fuel-market-paintings-streets"if Banksy were to authorize the work it would set a precedent, “that works intended for the street, after they’re removed, still have value.” And that’s not a precedent, ... that artists like Banksy want to support. Day elaborates: “There’s kind of a black market that’s emerged for paintings removed from the street, and artists don’t want to encourage it by legitimizing those paintings.” While selling works uprooted from the streets isn’t technically illegal, the process does pose some serious ethical quandaries. Not only do most street artists disapprove of the removal of their works from their original context, but they also don’t see any of the profit made from the sales."
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bernsteiner
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 17, 2017 22:06:11 GMT 1, Heavy Weaponry Fake
Heavy Weaponry Fake
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bernsteiner
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 17, 2017 12:27:29 GMT 1, Nobody can fake a real Banksy.
Nobody can fake a real Banksy.
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bernsteiner
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 17, 2017 10:08:23 GMT 1, You won't need more than one clamp for an exact result (one try fits)? .. and the object must look old and rusty.. may take some time again - are there any technical solutions for it?
You won't need more than one clamp for an exact result (one try fits)? .. and the object must look old and rusty.. may take some time again - are there any technical solutions for it?
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bernsteiner
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 17, 2017 7:42:56 GMT 1, Another (new) question to the stencil experts here: How many clamps and stencils will it take until the first looks like this one?
Reverse calculation ... yesterday somebody wrote it may take 5 hours (can't find the posting anymore): - A used clamp costs ? (New one is about 70 GBP) - Time: 5 Hours - Maybe the fails are sellable too (but risk of flooding the market with HW stencil-works)
Another (new) question to the stencil experts here: How many clamps and stencils will it take until the first looks like this one?
Reverse calculation ... yesterday somebody wrote it may take 5 hours (can't find the posting anymore): - A used clamp costs ? (New one is about 70 GBP) - Time: 5 Hours - Maybe the fails are sellable too (but risk of flooding the market with HW stencil-works)
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bernsteiner
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 16, 2017 20:14:36 GMT 1, Thanks for the hint but I'll keep it like it is. I'm sure that this board will have the right answer someday.
Thanks for the hint but I'll keep it like it is. I'm sure that this board will have the right answer someday.
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bernsteiner
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 16, 2017 20:07:33 GMT 1, bernsteiner , do you know if the art dealer that you purchased it from ever attempted to get PC to authenticate this piece? And did you consider contacting PC about it before you purchased it? He sent a convolut of pieces in one including the clamp to PC and of course they replied "we don't authenticate". I still got this mail somewhere.. I made a lot of research on my own and held the clamp for several month before I asked PC.
bernsteiner , do you know if the art dealer that you purchased it from ever attempted to get PC to authenticate this piece? And did you consider contacting PC about it before you purchased it? He sent a convolut of pieces in one including the clamp to PC and of course they replied "we don't authenticate". I still got this mail somewhere.. I made a lot of research on my own and held the clamp for several month before I asked PC.
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bernsteiner
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 16, 2017 19:56:09 GMT 1, Mr Plip, you make my day. Every minute I spent here is worth this fantastic story.. how a wheelclamp became a beloved and exciting piece in my collection. I'll print it out and paste it beside PCs mail on the back of the object.
I'm still a little sad that many people here don't differentiate between greed and an mindful exchange about the behaviour of an artist and his work.
People: I didn't expect anything here; I haven't lost anything. I collect art because I love that it conserves our lifetime for further generations. This clamp is a piece of it.
It's not important what you own; it's important what you make out of it.
The answer to my question is still not answered .. maybe I find it here someday or it finds me. Thank you for the support. Most contributors here are really great!
Mr Plip, you make my day. Every minute I spent here is worth this fantastic story.. how a wheelclamp became a beloved and exciting piece in my collection. I'll print it out and paste it beside PCs mail on the back of the object.
I'm still a little sad that many people here don't differentiate between greed and an mindful exchange about the behaviour of an artist and his work.
People: I didn't expect anything here; I haven't lost anything. I collect art because I love that it conserves our lifetime for further generations. This clamp is a piece of it.
It's not important what you own; it's important what you make out of it.
The answer to my question is still not answered .. maybe I find it here someday or it finds me. Thank you for the support. Most contributors here are really great!
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bernsteiner
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 16, 2017 14:49:59 GMT 1, You name it mattl! thanks
Anyway the question is there (and I will follow it in other cases if possible): Why did PC replied in this manner?
You name it mattl! thanks
Anyway the question is there (and I will follow it in other cases if possible): Why did PC replied in this manner?
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bernsteiner
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 16, 2017 14:38:32 GMT 1, They can call it what they like. Especially If Banksy has done it, they must call it a fake.
I've several Harings, personally signed.. not listed by the Haring Foundation = Fake (in their words). Should I mistrust my friends who talked to Haring while he signed it?
PC has an agenda.. like every artist foundation: clearing the market.
I'm still interested if anybody ever got the reply "It's a fake" by PC?
They can call it what they like. Especially If Banksy has done it, they must call it a fake.
I've several Harings, personally signed.. not listed by the Haring Foundation = Fake (in their words). Should I mistrust my friends who talked to Haring while he signed it?
PC has an agenda.. like every artist foundation: clearing the market.
I'm still interested if anybody ever got the reply "It's a fake" by PC?
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 16, 2017 14:16:50 GMT 1, Ploppi, thanks for your helpful statement. You describe exactly what I supposed for a long time.. why that piece looks (slightly different) like it does (than the Bonhams).
Again: Did anybody here ever got a reply by PC "it's a fake"?
Ploppi, thanks for your helpful statement. You describe exactly what I supposed for a long time.. why that piece looks (slightly different) like it does (than the Bonhams).
Again: Did anybody here ever got a reply by PC "it's a fake"?
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bernsteiner
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 16, 2017 9:39:01 GMT 1, Thanks for this smart visual analysis. Just to add. The wobbly thing depends on the angle of th clamp in the lower right corner since the stencil was flat. IMO another aspect for an authentic piece; who ever applied it he/she worked like a street artist, quick, maybe in the shadow of the night..
that may also explain the drips I already mentioned above: the stencil seems to be reused and the wet paint was pressed by the stencil on the clamp (here again, see the red arrows):
It leads to the question: Does a faker try to make it such "bad" or most beautiful (see the red squares in the Photo: anybody tried to scratch these drips off)?
Thanks for this smart visual analysis. Just to add. The wobbly thing depends on the angle of th clamp in the lower right corner since the stencil was flat. IMO another aspect for an authentic piece; who ever applied it he/she worked like a street artist, quick, maybe in the shadow of the night.. that may also explain the drips I already mentioned above: the stencil seems to be reused and the wet paint was pressed by the stencil on the clamp (here again, see the red arrows): It leads to the question: Does a faker try to make it such "bad" or most beautiful (see the red squares in the Photo: anybody tried to scratch these drips off)?
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bernsteiner
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 15, 2017 14:41:06 GMT 1, Initially I wrote them once via email with photos of the clamp, then they replied personally: " Hi XXX,
Please submit this for authentication via the form on our website, we will need to see uncropped images of the front and back of the piece and we will need to know where you got the piece.
Kind regards "
Then I submitted my request via the form and got an Filing No. I never got a reply on that official authentication request. After six month of waiting I replied to the first mail exchange, asked for updates and then they replied (after another four weeks) with the "It's a fake"-answer.
Initially I wrote them once via email with photos of the clamp, then they replied personally: " Hi XXX,
Please submit this for authentication via the form on our website, we will need to see uncropped images of the front and back of the piece and we will need to know where you got the piece.
Kind regards "
Then I submitted my request via the form and got an Filing No. I never got a reply on that official authentication request. After six month of waiting I replied to the first mail exchange, asked for updates and then they replied (after another four weeks) with the "It's a fake"-answer.
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bernsteiner
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 15, 2017 10:14:22 GMT 1, you are only talking about money. I think it's clear that I won't sell it and that PC said it's a fake. I love this piece (even more because it feels undervalued in historical relevance to me).
Beside this valuation-discussion.. Is it a fake only because PC says it? No. Show the Haring Foundation a Keith Haring signature he gave you personally in the 80s and they call it a fake. It's a mechanism to drive prices ..
Did anybody here ever got a reply by PC: "It's a fake?" I don't have any doubts that it's not a real piece of Banksy or his fellows. The answer "We won't authenticate it" would have maked it easier..
you are only talking about money. I think it's clear that I won't sell it and that PC said it's a fake. I love this piece (even more because it feels undervalued in historical relevance to me).
Beside this valuation-discussion.. Is it a fake only because PC says it? No. Show the Haring Foundation a Keith Haring signature he gave you personally in the 80s and they call it a fake. It's a mechanism to drive prices ..
Did anybody here ever got a reply by PC: "It's a fake?" I don't have any doubts that it's not a real piece of Banksy or his fellows. The answer "We won't authenticate it" would have maked it easier..
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bernsteiner
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 15, 2017 8:32:23 GMT 1, The seller only proved to me that he took it in 2005 from London. All additional informations are added by me.
Due to the ongoing inspections here one more detail: The stencil looks like is was used before it was applied on the clamp. There are some drips from the pressure of the stencil (see red arrows). And obviously somebody (not my seller) tried to erase/scratch them off (red squares).
To give a better impression of the structure of the painting see a detail shot here:
Feel free to demand for further details/spots of the clamp.
The seller only proved to me that he took it in 2005 from London. All additional informations are added by me. Due to the ongoing inspections here one more detail: The stencil looks like is was used before it was applied on the clamp. There are some drips from the pressure of the stencil (see red arrows). And obviously somebody (not my seller) tried to erase/scratch them off (red squares). To give a better impression of the structure of the painting see a detail shot here: Feel free to demand for further details/spots of the clamp.
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 14, 2017 21:25:21 GMT 1, They say: Hold and enjoy it! Maybe one day..
They say: Hold and enjoy it! Maybe one day..
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 14, 2017 20:19:42 GMT 1, Thank you for your statements. This piece is worth every penny for me. I love it and it looks beautiful in my living room. Several serious banksy collectors like it too.
I just wonder - and was interested in your opinion - why does PC say it's a fake instaed of rejecting the authentication.
You can be sure that I wouldn't have bought it with a bad feeling. I collected the money and drove through half of europe to get it. Before I checked every public information about the HW motive and Banksys early days - and it really was in the hands of the trustworth seller since 2005.
A basic idea of me about forgery of real (and complex) street art: It's hard to reproduce. The specific moment when a piece is created makes the half of its karma, if a Banksy, a Haring or of anybody else. Producing such an authentic piece like this clamp needs a high perfection and dozens of other clamps until one of them looks such good.. and this one is worth more than a four digit price. Forgering a Mona Lisa for million bucks, ok. But faking a piece worth nearly nothing would need another motivation..
My intention here is not to discuss its value nor its beauty or message. I dont't want to sell it. It is more your reflection and your experience with Banksy in general, other HW paintings (maybe a series of HW fakes) and personal feedback you received from PC.
Another intention was - and I experienced it while reading one of the last posts here - to give it a public, to discuss it and the "street art-collecting-thing" and to show that something is here; if fake or not - nobody knows. If it's real it's like a time capsule from 2000: Banksys earliest days in London..
Thank you for your statements. This piece is worth every penny for me. I love it and it looks beautiful in my living room. Several serious banksy collectors like it too.
I just wonder - and was interested in your opinion - why does PC say it's a fake instaed of rejecting the authentication.
You can be sure that I wouldn't have bought it with a bad feeling. I collected the money and drove through half of europe to get it. Before I checked every public information about the HW motive and Banksys early days - and it really was in the hands of the trustworth seller since 2005.
A basic idea of me about forgery of real (and complex) street art: It's hard to reproduce. The specific moment when a piece is created makes the half of its karma, if a Banksy, a Haring or of anybody else. Producing such an authentic piece like this clamp needs a high perfection and dozens of other clamps until one of them looks such good.. and this one is worth more than a four digit price. Forgering a Mona Lisa for million bucks, ok. But faking a piece worth nearly nothing would need another motivation..
My intention here is not to discuss its value nor its beauty or message. I dont't want to sell it. It is more your reflection and your experience with Banksy in general, other HW paintings (maybe a series of HW fakes) and personal feedback you received from PC.
Another intention was - and I experienced it while reading one of the last posts here - to give it a public, to discuss it and the "street art-collecting-thing" and to show that something is here; if fake or not - nobody knows. If it's real it's like a time capsule from 2000: Banksys earliest days in London..
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bernsteiner
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 14, 2017 10:30:18 GMT 1, But why do they say it and did't reject the authentication like normally? What's their agenda with banksys street art pieces? Like I know they (don't) authenticate to devalue it..
But why do they say it and did't reject the authentication like normally? What's their agenda with banksys street art pieces? Like I know they (don't) authenticate to devalue it..
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 14, 2017 10:23:47 GMT 1, low 5 digit price. It has more a art-historical value for me. Especially in the whole "street art belongs to the street" discussion.. Like it it now. I conserve it for coming generations.. on the street it would have gone.
low 5 digit price. It has more a art-historical value for me. Especially in the whole "street art belongs to the street" discussion.. Like it it now. I conserve it for coming generations.. on the street it would have gone.
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 14, 2017 10:18:52 GMT 1, How do you mean it? Does the statement proof it's a fake or the opposit?
I made several comparisons to details of the Bonhams HW.. every element fits 1:1.
The motive on the object and the authenticated canvas have both a very remarkable spot. At the bottom of the front-food you can see a white-area/spot. This spot is on both mediums exactly at the same position, by the same scale. You can see a very zoomed/detailed here (clamp outline (yellow) on Bonhams canvas):
How do you mean it? Does the statement proof it's a fake or the opposit? I made several comparisons to details of the Bonhams HW.. every element fits 1:1. The motive on the object and the authenticated canvas have both a very remarkable spot. At the bottom of the front-food you can see a white-area/spot. This spot is on both mediums exactly at the same position, by the same scale. You can see a very zoomed/detailed here (clamp outline (yellow) on Bonhams canvas):
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 13, 2017 22:07:00 GMT 1, Now it's authentic : )
Now it's authentic : )
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Heavy Weaponry Clamp, by bernsteiner on May 13, 2017 21:13:12 GMT 1, This is my first posting in this board even I'm a member since years and read a lot here.
I own this wheelclamp since more than two years now. I purchased it personally from an oldtimer-dealer in south Germany who brought it from London around 2005:
Since then I made a lot of research.. and have got a reply from PCO: The results are contradictory.
- It's an original wheel-clamp/carboot like it is still used today in London
- The optical appearance of the object is authentically old (rusty, scratched)
- This motive appeared in Banksys early period in Bristol and recently 2000/2001 in London
- The motive has been used in two versions on canvases; the strongest differentiation is the middle pair of legs (older motive = the space between is painted black; younger = the space is kept free)
- A canvas of the newer motive was auctioned at Bonhams in 2007: www.bonhams.com/auctions/14942/lot/369/ , conforms 1:1 to the motive on the object;
In my theory the object was created around the year 2000 and Banksys first show in London, similar to the above mentioned canvas (Bonhams refers to it in their detail discription, see link). Banksy painted several motives on plain whited-out walls and sold the motives on canvas seperately; this photo shows this wall, see the (younger) motive in the lower left corner:
..
POC wrote more then a year ago (after some exchange via mail and several month of waiting):
"
Hi xxx.
The clamp is a fake, it isn’t by Banksy.
Kind regards
Pest Control Office
"
I wonder that they make a statement on a street art piece since they claim that they generally don't do it.
I'm very interested in the opinions here? Have you ever seen such an object (Clamp + HW) or any older HW fakes?
Looking forward to the exchange here..
This is my first posting in this board even I'm a member since years and read a lot here. I own this wheelclamp since more than two years now. I purchased it personally from an oldtimer-dealer in south Germany who brought it from London around 2005: Since then I made a lot of research.. and have got a reply from PCO: The results are contradictory. - It's an original wheel-clamp/carboot like it is still used today in London - The optical appearance of the object is authentically old (rusty, scratched) - This motive appeared in Banksys early period in Bristol and recently 2000/2001 in London - The motive has been used in two versions on canvases; the strongest differentiation is the middle pair of legs (older motive = the space between is painted black; younger = the space is kept free) - A canvas of the newer motive was auctioned at Bonhams in 2007: www.bonhams.com/auctions/14942/lot/369/ , conforms 1:1 to the motive on the object; In my theory the object was created around the year 2000 and Banksys first show in London, similar to the above mentioned canvas (Bonhams refers to it in their detail discription, see link). Banksy painted several motives on plain whited-out walls and sold the motives on canvas seperately; this photo shows this wall, see the (younger) motive in the lower left corner: .. POC wrote more then a year ago (after some exchange via mail and several month of waiting): " Hi xxx. The clamp is a fake, it isn’t by Banksy. Kind regards Pest Control Office " I wonder that they make a statement on a street art piece since they claim that they generally don't do it. I'm very interested in the opinions here? Have you ever seen such an object (Clamp + HW) or any older HW fakes? Looking forward to the exchange here..
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