met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Large Blek Le Rat Christ Canvas For Sale, by met on Apr 24, 2024 15:11:23 GMT 1,
Thank you for this.
I remember the link having previously been posted last year by @bulldog (who's no longer with us, at least under that username) in a thread covering a Blek le Rat print release.
urbanartassociation.com/thread/184357/new-blek-rat-print-king
The next hype.A lot of for 1000 Euro with offer by eB ay unsold, 1 print sold ? I think its a ugly print but only my opinion, for 500 Euro ok, but not for 1000 Euro. The hype machine is running, put the name of his new galerist from UK Mr. Steven Sully in Google, amazing Story's about this guy.You find some articles like this www.gripeo.com/steven-sulley/
Maybe it's all a hype machine by the galerist, some little trolls from him. His gallery owner is a scammer and Bl ek is maybe not the most honest either, yesterday they took the sound out of the video, maybe the sound will come back miraculously. He says in the video that he doesn't necessarily want to say that Ban ksy is manipulating the market and doesn't know how to do it, but he now has his gallerist (the gallery owner is the guy doing the interview lol) who knows how to do it. Always take a closer look before all the shepherds start running. The Video have 18 Likes and the guy have 10.5k fake Follwers, it's very interesting to look a little bit closer. Pay attention to the body language of both of them, anyone who can read people knows what scratching means. Info about the galerist www.gripeo.com/steven-sulley/and here the video www.instagram.com/reel/CqHypkHualP/?igshid=ZGY5ODdmOGM=
Reminders about individuals like Steven Sulley are helpful. After all, "The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour."
It can be easy to overlook, especially since good con artists are always master manipulators. They persuade and switch on the charm with ease.
If I myself am going to get scammed, it will not be by anyone visibly sketchy, when my guard is already up. The person who scams me will be knowledgeable, entertaining, charismatic. They will be likeable. Somebody with whom I'd happily go to the pub for a drink. And who will know exactly what I want to hear.
Our perception can also be skewed if we focus solely on a gallery name or it's upmarket location. "Woodbury House" admittedly sounds credible, even reputable. The name evokes stability, tradition, an established business โ rather than a recent upstart looking to come across as established.
[This calls to mind the intensive agriculture industries using fictional-farm branding on food packaging:
"We are Willow Farms. Look at the beautiful tree on our label. You know, healthy living, nature!" sounds a whole lot better than, "We are an industrial-livestock-production facility, otherwise known as factory farming."]
Sulley's modus operandi feels offputtingly similar to that of the disgraced art dealer, Andy Valmorbida.
No doubt the two of them spent plenty of time flocking together while discussing marketing and selling tactics for works by Richard Hambleton.
Fascinating website, thanks for sharing. Its blocked by my employer!!
A copy-and-paste below (although without the hyperlinks):
www.gripeo.com/steven-sulley/
*Scam* Consumer Reviews
Is Steven Sulley a carbon Credit Scammer of Woodbury House? (Update 2024)
December 2, 2023
Steven Sulley is the founder of Woodbury House and hosts the Steven Sulley Study podcast.
He founded Woodbury House in 2014 and has been running it since. Apart from that, he has been a part of the Tungsten Management Group and Minboso.
On paper, Steven Sulley seems like a reliable entrepreneur with an amazing track record. However, he has plenty of skeletons in his closet.
Steven Sulley avoids mentioning one of his biggest ventures anywhere, Pure Carbon Limited. Why? Because the company was a scam.
Yes, Steven Sulley has a history of scamming people. The following review will explain how he scammed innocent investors out of millions:
Carbon Green Capital and Pure Carbon Limited: How Sulley Made His Millions:
Carbon Green Capital was a carbon trading company which promised its investors threefold returns on their investments. The High Court closed down the company in 2014 when the investigators from the Government-run Insolvency Service found its exaggerated claims.
One judge called this company fraudulent. Note that Carbon Green Capital had attracted around ยฃ1 million from investors. Sulley had set up this company in 2012.
However, when the Court shut his fraudulent company down, he moved onto another scam, Pure Carbon Ltd.
With his new venture, Steven Sulley raked in over ยฃ3 million from gullible investors. In 2016, the High Court ordered this firm into liquidation as well.
However, the liquidatorsโ own enquiries were delayed because the companyโs records were under the possession of the police.
Then, Sulley threatened The Mail to take down their report saying it was libellous. He said the article is defamatory to him suggesting he is a โcareer conmanโ which couldnโt be further from the truth. Steven even claimed that The Mailโs report violated the Defamation Act 2013.
Luckily, The Mail declined.
Now, he has started marketing himself as an art dealer. He uses the name of the Woodbury House art gallery in Soho, London for his own company, Woodbury House to make himself seem more credible.
His firm describes itself as a โspecialist art investment consultancyโ.
More on Steven Sulleyโs Carbon Credit Scam:
The High Court had shut down Pure Carbon Limited on 3rd February, 2016. It did so after the investigation by the Insolvency Service.
Pure Carbon Ltd wasnโt the only company shut down, it was shut down with 89 other firms.
Steven Sulley was the sole director of Pure Carbon Ltd. According to a REDD report, the company sold over 500,000 carbon credits to retain investors between February 2012 and February 2013 for ยฃ3,191,054.
Beware of Steven Sulley of The Steven Sulley Study:
Sulley is a serial scammer. He has stolen millions from investors through his carbon credit companies. Now, he has rebranded himself through his podcast.
However, thereโs no denying that he is still a scammer. The proof is his latest venture, Woodbury House, which has used the name of a renowned art museum to borrow credibility.
He is a charlatan who even threatened The Mail UK so they would take down their report on him.
Certainly, he is a dangerous guy who you should avoid at all costs. Steven isnโt the only โguruโ who tries to deceive people so they wouldnโt learn about his crooked past.
Another such guru is Justin Goodbread.
Hence, you should avoid dealing with Steven Sulley and Woodbury House at all costs.
Thank you for this. I remember the link having previously been posted last year by @ bulldog (who's no longer with us, at least under that username) in a thread covering a Blek le Rat print release. urbanartassociation.com/thread/184357/new-blek-rat-print-kingThe next hype.A lot of for 1000 Euro with offer by eB ay unsold, 1 print sold ? I think its a ugly print but only my opinion, for 500 Euro ok, but not for 1000 Euro. The hype machine is running, put the name of his new galerist from UK Mr. Steven Sully in Google, amazing Story's about this guy.You find some articles like this www.gripeo.com/steven-sulley/Maybe it's all a hype machine by the galerist, some little trolls from him. His gallery owner is a scammer and Bl ek is maybe not the most honest either, yesterday they took the sound out of the video, maybe the sound will come back miraculously. He says in the video that he doesn't necessarily want to say that Ban ksy is manipulating the market and doesn't know how to do it, but he now has his gallerist (the gallery owner is the guy doing the interview lol) who knows how to do it. Always take a closer look before all the shepherds start running. The Video have 18 Likes and the guy have 10.5k fake Follwers, it's very interesting to look a little bit closer. Pay attention to the body language of both of them, anyone who can read people knows what scratching means. Info about the galerist www.gripeo.com/steven-sulley/and here the video www.instagram.com/reel/CqHypkHualP/?igshid=ZGY5ODdmOGM=Reminders about individuals like Steven Sulley are helpful. After all, "The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour." It can be easy to overlook, especially since good con artists are always master manipulators. They persuade and switch on the charm with ease. If I myself am going to get scammed, it will not be by anyone visibly sketchy, when my guard is already up. The person who scams me will be knowledgeable, entertaining, charismatic. They will be likeable. Somebody with whom I'd happily go to the pub for a drink. And who will know exactly what I want to hear. Our perception can also be skewed if we focus solely on a gallery name or it's upmarket location. " Woodbury House" admittedly sounds credible, even reputable. The name evokes stability, tradition, an established business โ rather than a recent upstart looking to come across as established. [This calls to mind the intensive agriculture industries using fictional-farm branding on food packaging:"We are Willow Farms. Look at the beautiful tree on our label. You know, healthy living, nature!" sounds a whole lot better than, "We are an industrial-livestock-production facility, otherwise known as factory farming."]Sulley's modus operandi feels offputtingly similar to that of the disgraced art dealer, Andy Valmorbida. No doubt the two of them spent plenty of time flocking together while discussing marketing and selling tactics for works by Richard Hambleton. Fascinating website, thanks for sharing. Its blocked by my employer!! A copy-and-paste below (although without the hyperlinks): www.gripeo.com/steven-sulley/*Scam* Consumer Reviews
Is Steven Sulley a carbon Credit Scammer of Woodbury House? (Update 2024)
December 2, 2023
Steven Sulley is the founder of Woodbury House and hosts the Steven Sulley Study podcast.
He founded Woodbury House in 2014 and has been running it since. Apart from that, he has been a part of the Tungsten Management Group and Minboso.
On paper, Steven Sulley seems like a reliable entrepreneur with an amazing track record. However, he has plenty of skeletons in his closet.
Steven Sulley avoids mentioning one of his biggest ventures anywhere, Pure Carbon Limited. Why? Because the company was a scam.
Yes, Steven Sulley has a history of scamming people. The following review will explain how he scammed innocent investors out of millions:
Carbon Green Capital and Pure Carbon Limited: How Sulley Made His Millions:
Carbon Green Capital was a carbon trading company which promised its investors threefold returns on their investments. The High Court closed down the company in 2014 when the investigators from the Government-run Insolvency Service found its exaggerated claims.
One judge called this company fraudulent. Note that Carbon Green Capital had attracted around ยฃ1 million from investors. Sulley had set up this company in 2012.
However, when the Court shut his fraudulent company down, he moved onto another scam, Pure Carbon Ltd.
With his new venture, Steven Sulley raked in over ยฃ3 million from gullible investors. In 2016, the High Court ordered this firm into liquidation as well.
However, the liquidatorsโ own enquiries were delayed because the companyโs records were under the possession of the police.
Then, Sulley threatened The Mail to take down their report saying it was libellous. He said the article is defamatory to him suggesting he is a โcareer conmanโ which couldnโt be further from the truth. Steven even claimed that The Mailโs report violated the Defamation Act 2013.
Luckily, The Mail declined.
Now, he has started marketing himself as an art dealer. He uses the name of the Woodbury House art gallery in Soho, London for his own company, Woodbury House to make himself seem more credible.
His firm describes itself as a โspecialist art investment consultancyโ.
More on Steven Sulleyโs Carbon Credit Scam:
The High Court had shut down Pure Carbon Limited on 3rd February, 2016. It did so after the investigation by the Insolvency Service.
Pure Carbon Ltd wasnโt the only company shut down, it was shut down with 89 other firms.
Steven Sulley was the sole director of Pure Carbon Ltd. According to a REDD report, the company sold over 500,000 carbon credits to retain investors between February 2012 and February 2013 for ยฃ3,191,054.
Beware of Steven Sulley of The Steven Sulley Study:
Sulley is a serial scammer. He has stolen millions from investors through his carbon credit companies. Now, he has rebranded himself through his podcast.
However, thereโs no denying that he is still a scammer. The proof is his latest venture, Woodbury House, which has used the name of a renowned art museum to borrow credibility.
He is a charlatan who even threatened The Mail UK so they would take down their report on him.
Certainly, he is a dangerous guy who you should avoid at all costs. Steven isnโt the only โguruโ who tries to deceive people so they wouldnโt learn about his crooked past.
Another such guru is Justin Goodbread.
Hence, you should avoid dealing with Steven Sulley and Woodbury House at all costs.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Mounting and Hinging Tape (DIY Framing), by met on Apr 24, 2024 12:01:54 GMT 1, Can you recommend any non-permanent adhesive? if they even exists....
If experimenting on your own, it may be worth doing a deep dive.
1. Google search "reversible hinging", combined with other potential search terms like "Washi paper" and "rice starch" or "wheat starch".
2. For a wealth of knowledge and experience, check out the recommended forum for framers, The Grumble:
www.thegrumble.com/
3. But for an easy life (albeit a somewhat-compromised one), there does exist pre‑made products described as reversible, like Hayaku Japanese hinging paper by Lineco.
The latter quick-and-dirty item looks straightforward and easy to use, though it apparently contains some preservatives โ meaning the starch paste is not pure, which may affect the quality of the bond and its stability over time.
www.preservationequipment.com/Catalogue/Conservation-Materials/Labels-Tapes/Hayaku-Japanese-Hinging-Paper-533-0752
Can you recommend any non-permanent adhesive? if they even exists.... If experimenting on your own, it may be worth doing a deep dive. 1. Google search "reversible hinging", combined with other potential search terms like "Washi paper" and "rice starch" or "wheat starch". 2. For a wealth of knowledge and experience, check out the recommended forum for framers, The Grumble: www.thegrumble.com/3. But for an easy life (albeit a somewhat-compromised one), there does exist pre‑made products described as reversible, like Hayaku Japanese hinging paper by Lineco. The latter quick-and-dirty item looks straightforward and easy to use, though it apparently contains some preservatives โ meaning the starch paste is not pure, which may affect the quality of the bond and its stability over time. www.preservationequipment.com/Catalogue/Conservation-Materials/Labels-Tapes/Hayaku-Japanese-Hinging-Paper-533-0752
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Looking to buy a Jordy Kerwick Canvas , by met on Apr 22, 2024 0:23:27 GMT 1,
We don't know whether the painting sold on 9 March 2023, only that the "Price Realised" was ยฃ189,000 (hammer price of ยฃ150,000 plus 26% buyer's premium).
The stated provenance for the Christie's 2024 listing seems to imply the 2023 sale never actually completed. If this is correct, it's presumably because the winning bidder failed to pay.
While speculative on my part, it would not surprise me if the painting had been shilled in 2023 by individuals looking to shift public perception. The so‑called pump.
Aggressive shilling would give the outward appearance of a heightened demand for works by Jordy Kerwick. Defaulting afterwards would then allow such an artifice to be achieved without the need for any financial output.
The 12 March 2024 result (with the low estimate of ยฃ15,000 having not been reached) might suggest we are now in a post‑dump period for Kerwick paintings โ market manipulators perhaps having already offloaded and pulled out, leaving others behind to hold their empty sacks.
We don't know whether the painting sold on 9 March 2023, only that the "Price Realised" was ยฃ189,000 (hammer price of ยฃ150,000 plus 26% buyer's premium). The stated provenance for the Chr istie's 2024 listing seems to imply the 2023 sale never actually completed. If this is correct, it's presumably because the winning bidder failed to pay. While speculative on my part, it would not surprise me if the painting had been shilled in 2023 by individuals looking to shift public perception. The so‑called pump. Aggressive shilling would give the outward appearance of a heightened demand for works by Jordy Kerwick. Defaulting afterwards would then allow such an artifice to be achieved without the need for any financial output. The 12 March 2024 result (with the low estimate of ยฃ15,000 having not been reached) might suggest we are now in a post‑dump period for Ker wick paintings โ market manipulators perhaps having already offloaded and pulled out, leaving others behind to hold their empty sacks.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Albert willem prices?, by met on Apr 21, 2024 15:05:20 GMT 1,
Nicely done, compound.
It may be helpful to spell things out a little more fully.
Thread excerpt below, but the entire thread could be viewed as a parable.
And almost a parody, because it's such a clichรฉ:
Fika, willem, ismail Donโt get caught up in the shills. Buy up cheap artists, shill them to high heaven and dump. Same bidders over and over again You can always rely on reading the same old negative drivel on here when an artistโs market takes off. His auction results have been extremely strong..it happens! Letโs review this in 2 years shall we? Also, keep an eye on Emerging Artist auctions and play guess the shilled
Your cautionary heads-up was perhaps less interesting than the damage-limitation effort to shut it down.
On the one side, the critical thinker, the independent who, seeing cause for concern, chooses to step up by ringing the alarm bell (thereby knowingly also exposing themselves as a potential target for attack):
"Hey, he's not wearing any clothes!"
On the other side, those who already bought in, now holding stock they're looking to offload onto other forum members for a nice profit. And goddamnit, they'll protect their interests by whatever tactics necessary:
"Hush, silly boy, with your negative drivel. Always the same with the likes of you. You know not of what you speak. His new clothes are magnificent!"
__________
Query if the informed and rational whistleblowers should be listened to (the UAA Frances Haugens or Erika Cheungs among us).
Or should they instead be disparaged, to discourage both them and others from posting inconvenient comments that might harm the financial value of artworks we're looking to dump in the near or distant future?
__________
When deciding upon the weight to attribute to different viewpoints expressed on this message board, it's worth considering the previous form and apparent motives of each author.
Those motives may even be transparent, e.g. altruistic in nature, or to hype/safeguard the author's own investments.
The simple question to ask is, Who benefits?
Separately, if any member wants a reasonably-good shorthand way of judging somebody's character, pay attention to how they react to criticism.
Whether it's criticism against them, or against the things they might have a vested interest in.
Nicely done, compound. It may be helpful to spell things out a little more fully. Thread excerpt below, but the entire thread could be viewed as a parable. And almost a parody, because it's such a clichรฉ: Fika, willem, ismail Donโt get caught up in the shills. Buy up cheap artists, shill them to high heaven and dump. Same bidders over and over again You can always rely on reading the same old negative drivel on here when an artistโs market takes off. His auction results have been extremely strong..it happens! Letโs review this in 2 years shall we? Also, keep an eye on Emerging Artist auctions and play guess the shilled Your cautionary heads-up was perhaps less interesting than the damage-limitation effort to shut it down. On the one side, the critical thinker, the independent who, seeing cause for concern, chooses to step up by ringing the alarm bell (thereby knowingly also exposing themselves as a potential target for attack): "Hey, he's not wearing any clothes!"On the other side, those who already bought in, now holding stock they're looking to offload onto other fo rum members for a nice profit. And goddamnit, they'll protect their interests by whatever tactics necessary: "Hush, silly boy, with your negative drivel. Always the same with the likes of you. You know not of what you speak. His new clothes are magnificent!"__________ Query if the informed and rational whistleblowers should be listened to (the UAA Frances Haugens or Erika Cheungs among us). Or should they instead be disparaged, to discourage both them and others from posting inconvenient comments that might harm the financial value of artworks we're looking to dump in the near or distant future? __________ When deciding upon the weight to attribute to different viewpoints expressed on this message board, it's worth considering the previous form and apparent motives of each author. Those motives may even be transparent, e.g. altruistic in nature, or to hype/safeguard the author's own investments. The simple question to ask is, Who benefits?Separately, if any member wants a reasonably-good shorthand way of judging somebody's character, pay attention to how they react to criticism. Whether it's criticism against them, or against the things they might have a vested interest in.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Visit LONDON ๐ด๓ ง๓ ข๓ ฅ๓ ฎ๓ ง๓ ฟ Street Art, Galleries, Events, by met on Apr 21, 2024 13:52:39 GMT 1, Gormley is closed, Capturing the Moment at Tate is a must-see, and Synchronicity at 180 Studios is recommended. The Kruger at Serpentine seems interesting based on what Iโve seen on social media, but I have yet to go.
Capturing the Moment at Tate Modern in London was extended until Sunday, 28 April 2024.
www.tate.org.uk/whats-on/tate-modern/capturing-the-moment
This exhibition was also mentioned by its all about me in a separate thread* in January.
In case a further nudge might encourage anyone to visit over the seven remaining days, they are recommended to do so. It's the strongest show I've been to since the excellent (now‑closed) retrospective for Philip Guston*.
The number of impressive works on display is a treat. I was especially pleased to see once again notable images by Gursky, and to view for the first time in person a Sugimoto seascape in large scale.
My main criticism is relatively trivial: There is no audioguide. This could have provided additional background on specific artists and pieces. And unified the exhibition more effectively, around its theme of the relationship between painting and photography, and how modern‑era painters and photographers captured moments in time.
Semi-doppelgรคnger of one member of this forum:
Pauline Boty, Portrait of Derek Marlowe with Unknown Ladies (1962โ1963)
Gormley is closed, Capturing the Moment at Tate is a must-see, and Synchronicity at 180 Studios is recommended. The Kruger at Serpentine seems interesting based on what Iโve seen on social media, but I have yet to go. Capturing the Moment at Tate Modern in Lon don was extended until Sunday, 28 April 2024. www.tate.org.uk/whats-on/tate-modern/capturing-the-momentThis exhibition was also mentioned by its all about me in a separate thread * in January. In case a further nudge might encourage anyone to visit over the seven remaining days, they are recommended to do so. It's the strongest show I've been to since the excellent (now‑closed) retrospective for Philip Guston*. The number of impressive works on display is a treat. I was especially pleased to see once again notable images by Gursky, and to view for the first time in person a Sugimoto seascape in large scale. My main criticism is relatively trivial: There is no audioguide. This could have provided additional background on specific artists and pieces. And unified the exhibition more effectively, around its theme of the relationship between painting and photography, and how modern‑era painters and photographers captured moments in time. Semi-doppelgรคnger of one member of this fo rum: Pauline Boty, Portrait of Derek Marlowe with Unknown Ladies (1962โ1963)
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
ANGEL 'LAII' ORTIZ: NEW COLLABORATIVE EXHIBITION + WORKS, by met on Apr 19, 2024 16:58:27 GMT 1, Rumors of a print are definitely out there - but I am not at liberty to comment at this time: I can confirm that there will be over 20 original collabo's and solo paintings by LA2 on display at the show: Richard "Shadowman" Hambleton X Angel "LA2" Ortiz Shepard"Ob ey" Fairey" X Angel "LA2" Ortiz Mr Doodle X Angel "LA2" Ortiz ST IK X Angel "LA2" Ortiz Mark Kostabi X Angel "LA2" Ortiz There will be original solo works by Angel "LA2" Ortiz as well. It is going to be an epic show - it is the first time ever that Ob ey X LA2 have publicly displayed their collaborations for everyone to enjoy.
Can some kind soul please remind me what tag/pseudonym Angel Ortiz uses?
Sorry, can't remember the tag used by Ortiz.
However, one of his aliases seems to be, "Lacks genuine talent and his recent paintings are terrible but, if we emphasise those Haring collaborations he did as a teenager in the eighties, people will still buy the crap, right?"
Or something to that effect.
Rumors of a print are definitely out there - but I am not at liberty to comment at this time: I can confirm that there will be over 20 original collabo's and solo paintings by LA2 on display at the show: Richard "Shadowman" Hambleton X Angel "LA2" Ortiz Shepard"Ob ey" Fairey" X Angel "LA2" Ortiz Mr Doodle X Angel "LA2" Ortiz ST IK X Angel "LA2" Ortiz Mark Kostabi X Angel "LA2" Ortiz There will be original solo works by Angel "LA2" Ortiz as well. It is going to be an epic show - it is the first time ever that Ob ey X LA2 have publicly displayed their collaborations for everyone to enjoy.
Can some kind soul please remind me what tag/pseudonym Angel Ortiz uses?
Sorry, can't remember the tag used by Ortiz. However, one of his aliases seems to be, "Lacks genuine talent and his recent paintings are terrible but, if we emphasise those Haring collaborations he did as a teenager in the eighties, people will still buy the crap, right?"Or something to that effect.
|
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
10FOOT ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release โข London Graffiti โข Street Art , by met on Apr 18, 2024 11:23:16 GMT 1, Mine arrived today as well....mmm...wayyy too sober for my liking! people actually think these look good???
There is a nostalgic appeal here, one I can fully relate to.
The graphic design skills call to mind a preferred style of my late neighbours.
Every month, Gladys and Ethel would host a bake sale. And many of the promo posters they'd hang on the bulletin board at our local community centre were similiar in layout and colour palette to this Wight Trash poster.
Gladys and Ethel, you are sorely missed. Your bake sales were ace.
Mine arrived today as well....mmm...wayyy too sober for my liking! people actually think these look good??? There is a nostalgic appeal here, one I can fully relate to. The graphic design skills call to mind a preferred style of my late neighbours. Every month, Gladys and Ethel would host a bake sale. And many of the promo posters they'd hang on the bulletin board at our local community centre were similiar in layout and colour palette to this Wight Trash poster. Gladys and Ethel, you are sorely missed. Your bake sales were ace.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Graffiti Prints Archive Vaults TODAY, by met on Apr 18, 2024 11:00:54 GMT 1, But aren't we all art critics? To the extent anyone here isn't, I would suggest they're either not thinking enough, or they're in the wrong place. I was being kind - i always enjoy what you write and think you write very well - well thought out.
Thank you. That's nice of you to say.
And I in turn was being playful. So if my words came across as defensive, then apologies; it wasn't the intention.
But aren't we all art critics? To the extent anyone here isn't, I would suggest they're either not thinking enough, or they're in the wrong place. I was being kind - i always enjoy what you write and think you write very well - well thought out. Thank you. That's nice of you to say. And I in turn was being playful. So if my words came across as defensive, then apologies; it wasn't the intention.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Graffiti Prints Archive Vaults TODAY, by met on Apr 18, 2024 10:29:25 GMT 1, Always felt like GP vault sales were part of the reason that their artists never were able to get representation outside of this gallery. First of all, cheers for the assist. Your reference to "part of the reason", for the limited representation beyond Graffiti Prints, may indeed be correct. Artists can become tainted by the reputations of their dealers, especially if the latter indulge in selling tactics that are widely seen to be deceptive, shady or grabby. At the same time, I would suggest the primary cause for this limited representation is simply down to the low calibre of most of the artists themselves. Martin Whatson, for example, would be mediocrity personified: Technically unskilled, vapid, derivative. His middle-of-the-road work hanging on the wall of a collector's home is the art equivalent of listening to Africa by Toto. On repeat. Every. Single. Day. You should be an art critic!
But aren't we all art critics?
To the extent anyone here isn't, I would suggest they're either not thinking enough, or they're in the wrong place.
Always felt like GP vault sales were part of the reason that their artists never were able to get representation outside of this gallery. First of all, cheers for the assist. Your reference to "part of the reason", for the limited representation beyond Graffiti Prints, may indeed be correct. Artists can become tainted by the reputations of their dealers, especially if the latter indulge in selling tactics that are widely seen to be deceptive, shady or grabby. At the same time, I would suggest the primary cause for this limited representation is simply down to the low calibre of most of the artists themselves. Martin Whatson, for example, would be mediocrity personified: Technically unskilled, vapid, derivative. His middle-of-the-road work hanging on the wall of a collector's home is the art equivalent of listening to Africa by Toto. On repeat. Every. Single. Day. You should be an art critic! But aren't we all art critics? To the extent anyone here isn't, I would suggest they're either not thinking enough, or they're in the wrong place.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Graffiti Prints Archive Vaults TODAY, by met on Apr 18, 2024 10:12:39 GMT 1, Always felt like GP vault sales were part of the reason that their artists never were able to get representation outside of this gallery.
First of all, cheers for the assist.
Your reference to "part of the reason", for the limited representation beyond Graffiti Prints, may indeed be correct.
Artists can become tainted by the reputations of their dealers, especially if the latter indulge in selling tactics that are widely seen to be deceptive, shady or grabby.
At the same time, I would suggest the primary cause for this limited representation is simply down to the low calibre of most of the artists themselves.
Martin Whatson, for example, would be mediocrity personified: Technically unskilled, vapid, derivative.
His middle-of-the-road work hanging on the wall of a collector's home is the art equivalent of listening to Africa by Toto. On repeat. Every. Single. Day.
Always felt like GP vault sales were part of the reason that their artists never were able to get representation outside of this gallery. First of all, cheers for the assist. Your reference to "part of the reason", for the limited representation beyond Graffiti Prints, may indeed be correct. Artists can become tainted by the reputations of their dealers, especially if the latter indulge in selling tactics that are widely seen to be deceptive, shady or grabby. At the same time, I would suggest the primary cause for this limited representation is simply down to the low calibre of most of the artists themselves. Martin Whatson, for example, would be mediocrity personified: Technically unskilled, vapid, derivative. His middle-of-the-road work hanging on the wall of a collector's home is the art equivalent of listening to Africa by Toto. On repeat. Every. Single. Day.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Invader โข 4000 Book Release , by met on Apr 15, 2024 17:50:15 GMT 1, For those who were wondering how to get a perfectly framed version of the signed book cover edition. 3 months lead time to do it from my (well known in this forum) frame shop here in Lon don. Dry mounted, box frame / floated, white birch. Looks MUCH better in the flesh Looks amazing! For me, framing is exactly as I would like. Question: could you describe what dry mount means? Can the cover be separated from the backing if desired at a later date? I'm in LA, not sure my framer would know this technique?
Your framer will know the technique.
Drymounting a piece means glueing it to a mount.
[Fancier terms might be used instead of "glue" or "glueing", like "adhesive" or "bonding", but they mean the same thing.]
Drymounting can offer presentational advantages, especially if the relevant piece is a work on paper that has been creased or folded.
But for anything of significant value and deemed fine art, you'd be best advised to avoid this technique. Many, myself included, see it as sacrilegious.
It is basically irreversible. And the general rule in the art world is as follows:
Ensure the preservation of your artwork's original condition. Do nothing that will permanently/irreversibly alter that condition.
Collectors can of course ignore this rule. However, they'd be doing so at their financial peril if the time ever came when they needed to resell.
As an experiment, trying having an in-person chat with a specialist at Christie's, Sotheby's or Phillips. Let them know you're looking to sell three or four signed Banksy screenprints.
Then see the dramatic change in their facial expression when you tell them you recently had the prints drymounted.
For those who were wondering how to get a perfectly framed version of the signed book cover edition. 3 months lead time to do it from my (well known in this forum) frame shop here in Lon don. Dry mounted, box frame / floated, white birch. Looks MUCH better in the flesh Looks amazing! For me, framing is exactly as I would like. Question: could you describe what dry mount means? Can the cover be separated from the backing if desired at a later date? I'm in LA, not sure my framer would know this technique? Your framer will know the technique. Drymounting a piece means glueing it to a mount. [Fancier terms might be used instead of "glue" or "glueing", like "adhesive" or "bonding", but they mean the same thing.]Drymounting can offer presentational advantages, especially if the relevant piece is a work on paper that has been creased or folded. But for anything of significant value and deemed fine art, you'd be best advised to avoid this technique. Many, myself included, see it as sacrilegious. It is basically irreversible. And the general rule in the art world is as follows: Ensure the preservation of your artwork's original condition. Do nothing that will permanently/irreversibly alter that condition.Collectors can of course ignore this rule. However, they'd be doing so at their financial peril if the time ever came when they needed to resell. As an experiment, trying having an in-person chat with a specialist at Ch ristie's, So theby's or Ph illips. Let them know you're looking to sell three or four signed Ban ksy screenprints. Then see the dramatic change in their facial expression when you tell them you recently had the prints drymounted.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Banksy - Album Covers (with LPs) for sale, by met on Apr 15, 2024 6:38:22 GMT 1, Because that 2008 release was dishonest and cynical: Calculated to give the impression of legitimacy โ in order to fill certain trouser pockets with cash, by selling hundreds of records which would otherwise have languished on store shelves or in a warehouse. I'm going to respectfully disagree with this. - but at no point were the DF releases marketed or sold as being official Ban ksy releases, as far as I'm aware. Notice that sticker on the covers? It says โlimited edition sleeve by Ban ksyโ on it. They even used the Ban ksy logo/tag!
Embarrassingly, I had completely forgotten about and overlooked those stickers.
So thank you for the very helpful reminder.
That is properly messed up, isn't it?
My previous posts were drafted on the basis that Paul Glancy / Dirty Funker's dishonesty and cynicism broadly came down to:
(a) being knowingly misleading through his conduct; and
(b) lying by omission.
But the stickers do take things to another level. They amount to an express falsehood and deceit. An overt fraud.
Glancy was in effect saying to all of us:
"I view you, the Banksy fans and collectors, with such contempt that I'm going to lie straight to your faces about the legitimacy of the images on my Dirty Funker record sleeves. And you are so naive, so gullible, that you're actually going to believe me, buy multiple copies of my records, and top up my bank balance in the process.
God bless you, fools."
Admittedly hyperbolic, but if anyone feels this characterisation is too unfair, I'd be interested to hear their thoughts.
Because that 2008 release was dishonest and cynical: Calculated to give the impression of legitimacy โ in order to fill certain trouser pockets with cash, by selling hundreds of records which would otherwise have languished on store shelves or in a warehouse. I'm going to respectfully disagree with this. - but at no point were the DF releases marketed or sold as being official Ban ksy releases, as far as I'm aware. Notice that sticker on the covers? It says โlimited edition sleeve by Ban ksyโ on it. They even used the Ban ksy logo/tag! Embarrassingly, I had completely forgotten about and overlooked those stickers. So thank you for the very helpful reminder. That is properly messed up, isn't it? My previous posts were drafted on the basis that Paul Glancy / Dirty Funker's dishonesty and cynicism broadly came down to: (a) being knowingly misleading through his conduct; and (b) lying by omission. But the stickers do take things to another level. They amount to an express falsehood and deceit. An overt fraud. Glancy was in effect saying to all of us: "I view you, the Banksy fans and collectors, with such contempt that I'm going to lie straight to your faces about the legitimacy of the images on my Dirty Funker record sleeves. And you are so naive, so gullible, that you're actually going to believe me, buy multiple copies of my records, and top up my bank balance in the process.
God bless you, fools."Admittedly hyperbolic, but if anyone feels this characterisation is too unfair, I'd be interested to hear their thoughts.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Banksy - Album Covers (with LPs) for sale, by met on Apr 14, 2024 12:54:29 GMT 1, Because that 2008 release was dishonest and cynical: Calculated to give the impression of legitimacy โ in order to fill certain trouser pockets with cash, by selling hundreds of records which would otherwise have languished on store shelves or in a warehouse. I'm going to respectfully disagree with this. PCO Please do not use Banksy's images for any commercial purpose, including launching a range of merchandise or tricking people into thinking something is made or endorsed by the artist when it isn't . I see the point you're making, underlined - but at no point were the DF releases marketed or sold as being official Ban ksy releases, as far as I'm aware. If they had been, they've have been priced much higher accordingly at time of release - whereas they were ยฃ6.99. There's a 25+year history of bootlegging and cheeky samples of music via the various labels he set up over the years, and some releases were hastily pulled as a result of some major label, but there was no attempt by Dirty Funker, nor the label, to claim these releases were legit Ban ksy covers. Looking at the Discogs edit history for a couple of these releases (I've not got time nor inclination to check every one!) the submissions weren't made by the same people, nor by the label/artist themselves - some credit 'Sleeve: Ban ksy' others 'Robert Banks'. Discogs - similarly to wikipedia - is user-controlled content, so I think some vinyl dealers / sellers tried to claim these as legitimate in order to manipulate the market.
You stepping up and voicing disagreement is appreciated; it's what the marketplace of ideas is all about.
With luck, exchanges like this might even assist one or two other members in establishing their own positions, or in nuancing their existing opinions on the subject.
__________
Initial side comments on your reference to "cheeky samples of music":
The music analogy is excellent, and I've no issue with sampling per se. My assessment of these things generally comes down to factors such as:
(i) degree of copying;
(ii) innovativeness of usage (including how, or the extent to which, the source material is reworked); and
(iii) actual or presumed intent of the sampler.
Taking snippets from myriad sources to create something fresh and transformative isn't a problem.
Andrew Weatherall's production work on Screamadelica immediately comes to mind. It was truly inspired.
But contrast the above with Paul Glancy pretty much reproducing wholesale entire images by a famous artist, and slapping them onto record sleeves.
The latter seems transparently exploitative. A cheap (albeit highly effective) effort to receive unmerited attention and sell crate‑loads of extra Dirty Funker records.
Moreover, this was Glancy forcing an association with somebody who was far more successful. It looks like he was seeking to elevate himself by basking in reflected glory. But how many sidebusters have ever commanded respect, as opposed to disdain?
__________
You make an important distinction, between:
(a) the marketing speak of Paul Glancy / Dirty Funker and his label; and
(b) whatever resellers of the records might say in their own sales listings.
For the avoidance of doubt, my focus was solely on the actions of Glancy and the original releases of his Dirty Funker records. Descriptions or misdescriptions by resellers were not taken into account by me.
__________
We share further common ground in that I'd be comfortable accepting on faith that the Dirty Funker records were not expressly marketed or sold as being official Banksy releases.
There may however be a divergence between us on the constituents of guilt.
In my view, no untrue statement was necessary for a line to have been crossed.
Paul Glancy was fully conscious of what he was doing, and what could be achieved commercially simply by appropriating and reproducing Banksy's art without consent.
Calculations that Glancy will likely have made:
1. Banksy's images would be the main selling point for a majority of buyers, not the fact the records were by Dirty Funker.
2. The images would conveniently also serve as a false endorsement, misleading consumers by suggesting Banksy actually supported Dirty Funker's music.
3. There was zero need to lie about the stolen status of the artwork, e.g. by falsely claiming it to be official. Because the releases alone, featuring immediately-recognisable images on their sleeves, would be sufficient to dupe many Banksy fans into believing the image use was legitimate.
4. Even among the more cautious and astute Banksy fans who wouldn't be completely fooled, some would nevertheless remain uncertain enough to buy the records anyway, just in case they might possibly be official.
5. Keeping schtum about the status of the images (i.e. whether they were authorised or unauthorised by Banksy) could in itself become a buzz‑marketing tactic โ with the resulting chatter and speculation possibly leading to increased sales, especially among the large contingent of consumers who fear the possibility of missing out on a good deal or investment opportunity.
The above conduct and mindset is what I was referring to when I previously mentioned the cynicism of the Dirty Funker release. Likewise with the dishonesty, which included a dishonesty by silence or omission.
As a more secondary point, the original retail pricing of Dirty Funker releases wouldn't in itself offer a compelling rebuttal, given that past releases featuring authorised Banksy images (on labels such as Wall of Sound or Parlophone) were never priced differently at source than any other vinyl or CDs.
__________
Although it shouldn't make a difference to its persuasiveness, I'll add that my stance here is generally consistent with English case law on the tort of passing off (something the Dirty Funker releases could arguably be accused of).
Passing off requires there be a misrepresentation, but this doesn't have to be a falsehood or exaggeration. The misrepresentation can be an express statement or just implied, including from the defendantโs actions.
Similarly, passing off need not be deliberate; it may occur regardless of the defendant having acted intentionally or unintentionally. What a judge will instead consider is conduct, and whether the relevant goods or services were offered in a way that deceived the public.
As for the number of people affected, a claim can be initiated and passing off can still be established even if most people were not actually deceived or misled.
__________
Lastly, it is worth touching upon the cumulative impact of releases such as those by Dirty Funker and DJDM.
The confusion they've sown over their status and legitimacy should not be underestimated.
How else would there be so many misinformed, oblivious or deluded collectors around?
Plenty continue to buy Dirty Funker and DJDM records, for sums of money that are sometimes comparable to what releases featuring authorised Banksy images go for, like the We Love You or Badmeaningood series.
That's the level of market ignorance and stupidity we are currently facing.
It is a disheartening reality.
Because that 2008 release was dishonest and cynical: Calculated to give the impression of legitimacy โ in order to fill certain trouser pockets with cash, by selling hundreds of records which would otherwise have languished on store shelves or in a warehouse. I'm going to respectfully disagree with this. PCO Please do not use Banksy's images for any commercial purpose, including launching a range of merchandise or tricking people into thinking something is made or endorsed by the artist when it isn't . I see the point you're making, underlined - but at no point were the DF releases marketed or sold as being official Ban ksy releases, as far as I'm aware. If they had been, they've have been priced much higher accordingly at time of release - whereas they were ยฃ6.99. There's a 25+year history of bootlegging and cheeky samples of music via the various labels he set up over the years, and some releases were hastily pulled as a result of some major label, but there was no attempt by Dirty Funker, nor the label, to claim these releases were legit Ban ksy covers. Looking at the Discogs edit history for a couple of these releases (I've not got time nor inclination to check every one!) the submissions weren't made by the same people, nor by the label/artist themselves - some credit 'Sleeve: Ban ksy' others 'Robert Banks'. Discogs - similarly to wikipedia - is user-controlled content, so I think some vinyl dealers / sellers tried to claim these as legitimate in order to manipulate the market. You stepping up and voicing disagreement is appreciated; it's what the marketplace of ideas is all about. With luck, exchanges like this might even assist one or two other members in establishing their own positions, or in nuancing their existing opinions on the subject. __________ Initial side comments on your reference to "cheeky samples of music": The music analogy is excellent, and I've no issue with sampling per se. My assessment of these things generally comes down to factors such as: (i) degree of copying; (ii) innovativeness of usage (including how, or the extent to which, the source material is reworked); and (iii) actual or presumed intent of the sampler. Taking snippets from myriad sources to create something fresh and transformative isn't a problem. Andrew Weatherall's production work on Screamadelica immediately comes to mind. It was truly inspired. But contrast the above with Paul Glancy pretty much reproducing wholesale entire images by a famous artist, and slapping them onto record sleeves. The latter seems transparently exploitative. A cheap (albeit highly effective) effort to receive unmerited attention and sell crate‑loads of extra Dirty Funker records. Moreover, this was Glancy forcing an association with somebody who was far more successful. It looks like he was seeking to elevate himself by basking in reflected glory. But how many sidebusters have ever commanded respect, as opposed to disdain? __________ You make an important distinction, between: (a) the marketing speak of Paul Glancy / Dirty Funker and his label; and (b) whatever resellers of the records might say in their own sales listings. For the avoidance of doubt, my focus was solely on the actions of Glancy and the original releases of his Dirty Funker records. Descriptions or misdescriptions by resellers were not taken into account by me. __________ We share further common ground in that I'd be comfortable accepting on faith that the Dirty Funker records were not expressly marketed or sold as being official Ban ksy releases. There may however be a divergence between us on the constituents of guilt. In my view, no untrue statement was necessary for a line to have been crossed. Paul Glancy was fully conscious of what he was doing, and what could be achieved commercially simply by appropriating and reproducing Ban ksy's art without consent. Calculations that Glancy will likely have made:1. Ban ksy's images would be the main selling point for a majority of buyers, not the fact the records were by Dirty Funker. 2. The images would conveniently also serve as a false endorsement, misleading consumers by suggesting Ban ksy actually supported Dirty Funker's music. 3. There was zero need to lie about the stolen status of the artwork, e.g. by falsely claiming it to be official. Because the releases alone, featuring immediately-recognisable images on their sleeves, would be sufficient to dupe many Banksy fans into believing the image use was legitimate. 4. Even among the more cautious and astute Ban ksy fans who wouldn't be completely fooled, some would nevertheless remain uncertain enough to buy the records anyway, just in case they might possibly be official. 5. Keeping schtum about the status of the images (i.e. whether they were authorised or unauthorised by Ban ksy) could in itself become a buzz‑marketing tactic โ with the resulting chatter and speculation possibly leading to increased sales, especially among the large contingent of consumers who fear the possibility of missing out on a good deal or investment opportunity. The above conduct and mindset is what I was referring to when I previously mentioned the cynicism of the Dirty Funker release. Likewise with the dishonesty, which included a dishonesty by silence or omission. As a more secondary point, the original retail pricing of Dirty Funker releases wouldn't in itself offer a compelling rebuttal, given that past releases featuring authorised Ban ksy images (on labels such as Wall of Sound or Parlophone) were never priced differently at source than any other vinyl or CDs. __________ Although it shouldn't make a difference to its persuasiveness, I'll add that my stance here is generally consistent with English case law on the tort of passing off (something the Dirty Funker releases could arguably be accused of). Passing off requires there be a misrepresentation, but this doesn't have to be a falsehood or exaggeration. The misrepresentation can be an express statement or just implied, including from the defendantโs actions. Similarly, passing off need not be deliberate; it may occur regardless of the defendant having acted intentionally or unintentionally. What a judge will instead consider is conduct, and whether the relevant goods or services were offered in a way that deceived the public. As for the number of people affected, a claim can be initiated and passing off can still be established even if most people were not actually deceived or misled. __________ Lastly, it is worth touching upon the cumulative impact of releases such as those by Dirty Funker and DJDM. The confusion they've sown over their status and legitimacy should not be underestimated. How else would there be so many misinformed, oblivious or deluded collectors around? Plenty continue to buy Dirty Funker and DJDM records, for sums of money that are sometimes comparable to what releases featuring authorised Banksy images go for, like the We Love You or Badmeaningood series. That's the level of market ignorance and stupidity we are currently facing. It is a disheartening reality.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Banksy - Album Covers (with LPs) for sale, by met on Apr 14, 2024 11:29:26 GMT 1, Talking about ignorant and education and getting the first principles totally wrong It is not a fake no a knockoff as per definition. A fake or knockoff is a product that is an exact copy or imitation of an authentic item and I don't recall Ban ksy releasing these. It is a bootleg, that is a product sold illegally without any authorisation. Also, Ban ksy always said that he is fine people using his image as long as it is not sold as Ban ksy art; he is actually the main reason why he lost his court case against that company doing postal cards (aside not commercialising his products/images). For sure, copying is wrong but when the artist itself says a) he doesn't care and b) fails to create a company to sell merchandising and crap (to protect his image under the IP law, which is more or less based on competition in market); then anyone is free to use the image and no, it is not stolen images (it was not at that time, it is now for anyone thinking of doing another printing since Ban ksy has a duly registered company now).
Thank you for the post.
1. Terminology
Words sometimes have a multitude of broadly-accepted definitions.
This might include minor variations of meaning (e.g. a restricted meaning as well as a more generic one), where each still relates to the same notion. There may also be geographical or generational differences in the commonly-understood meaning of certain terms. Or subtle differences of definition, depending on whether a word is serving as a noun or an adjective.
I was using the terms "fake" and "knockoff" in their broadest sense, just equating them to "not genuine" or "an unsanctioned copy".
Your own narrower definitions would actually be comparable to the meanings I attribute to other words, like "counterfeit" and "forgery".
At the risk of labouring the point, note as well how misunderstandings can arise due to different assumptions about which aspects specifically are being referred to.
For example, when I describe as fake a Dirty Funker record with a Banksy image on its sleeve, it could easily be inferred that I'm saying, "That's a fake Banksy record" or "That's a fake Dirty Funker record". Whereas my intended meaning is closer to "That's a fake Banksy" โ the emphasis being on the image, rather than the overall product.
Most important, however, is the fact there seems to be no substantive confusion between us regarding what we're discussing.
2. Banksy's position on others using his imagery
Your reference to the artist having "always said that he is fine people using his image as long as it is not sold as Banksy art" is misleading.
Via his website, Pest Control Office, and comments to the press, he has long made a straightforward distinction:
A. Non‑commercial use and personal amusement
Example: You or me printing an image from Banksy.co.uk and sticking it on our fridge.
[Advance consent provided by the artist = Okay]
versus
B. Unauthorised commercial use
Example: Paul Glancy stealing Radar Rat, Kate and Happy Choppers imagery, and using it on the sleeves of Dirty Funker releases โ piggybacking on Banksy's popularity to sell records that most collectors would otherwise have no interest in.
[Theft from the artist = Not okay]
__________
Set out below is a handful of the many comments Banksy has posted on his website over the years, regarding the use by others of his images.
Both the letter and spirit of his words seem consistent and clear:
This shop is intended for personal amusement only, not for mass producing product. Thanks.
Please note: This shop is for personal amusement only. Please don't use it to start a business. Thanks.
Banksy does not produce greeting cards or print photo-canvases or paint commissions or sell freshly baked bagels. Please take anything from this site and make your own (non‑commercial use only thanks).
You're welcome to download whatever you wish from this site for personal use. However, making your own art or merchandise and passing it off as โofficialโ or authentic Banksy artwork is bad and very wrong.
3. EUIPO cases
Regarding the European Union Intellectual Property Office cases in recent years between Pest Control Office and Full Colour Black, some conclusions you've drawn are incorrect.
However, this would only be a collateral issue, because the cases relate to legislative and regulatory concerns, especially trademark registration requirements, which are distinct from the principles‑based arguments I was focusing on.
[My wariness of forum posts on the EUIPO cases is that they're frequently muddled or littered with inaccuracies.
Authors of such posts rarely give the impression of understanding this specialist area, even when they seem fully at ease about commenting. Perhaps they rely solely on superficial press coverage of the cases, without (a) also reading the source materials like the EUIPO decisions themselves, or (b) first trying to get a basic grasp of intellectual property law, including the crucial differences between copyright and trademark.
For want of time and inclination, I try to avoid engaging in these instances, bearing in mind Brandolini's law and the technical nature of the subject matter.]
__________
There may be issues we still disagree on, but I hope the above helps to clarify my stance.
Talking about ignorant and education and getting the first principles totally wrong It is not a fake no a knockoff as per definition. A fake or knockoff is a product that is an exact copy or imitation of an authentic item and I don't recall Ban ksy releasing these. It is a bootleg, that is a product sold illegally without any authorisation. Also, Ban ksy always said that he is fine people using his image as long as it is not sold as Ban ksy art; he is actually the main reason why he lost his court case against that company doing postal cards (aside not commercialising his products/images). For sure, copying is wrong but when the artist itself says a) he doesn't care and b) fails to create a company to sell merchandising and crap (to protect his image under the IP law, which is more or less based on competition in market); then anyone is free to use the image and no, it is not stolen images (it was not at that time, it is now for anyone thinking of doing another printing since Ban ksy has a duly registered company now). He said it's ok to use as long as not for commercial purposes, he's not ok with it being used to make money, is the gist of it
This is the kind of conciseness I am constantly aspiring to, but almost always fail to achieve. Thank you.
who did Panda with handguns?
Julien Fanton D'Andon*, a French director who specialises in advertising commercials for beauty and luxury brands.
It was in 2005, shortly after graduating from Penninghen in Paris (an institution that teaches art direction, communication and interior architecture), that D'Andon designed his panda with handguns for the French youth-clothing brand, Kulte.
A few years later, in 2009, the panda was taken on as a logo by the then‑new record label, Bad Panda Records.
Presumably due to its aesthetic and sensibility, the image is regularly misattributed to Banksy.
And as is often the case with falsehoods, in a seemingly-never-ending cycle, they are perpetuated by consumers of information โ who accept what they read at face value and then further disseminate it without bothering to fact‑check beforehand.
Having done a quick search on this message board, a hat‑tip seems well‑deserved:
ilmambo looks to have been the first forum member to mention D'Andon, way back in March 2012*.
Talking about ignorant and education and getting the first principles totally wrong It is not a fake no a knockoff as per definition. A fake or knockoff is a product that is an exact copy or imitation of an authentic item and I don't recall Ban ksy releasing these. It is a bootleg, that is a product sold illegally without any authorisation. Also, Ban ksy always said that he is fine people using his image as long as it is not sold as Ban ksy art; he is actually the main reason why he lost his court case against that company doing postal cards (aside not commercialising his products/images). For sure, copying is wrong but when the artist itself says a) he doesn't care and b) fails to create a company to sell merchandising and crap (to protect his image under the IP law, which is more or less based on competition in market); then anyone is free to use the image and no, it is not stolen images (it was not at that time, it is now for anyone thinking of doing another printing since Ban ksy has a duly registered company now). Thank you for the post. 1. TerminologyWords sometimes have a multitude of broadly-accepted definitions. This might include minor variations of meaning (e.g. a restricted meaning as well as a more generic one), where each still relates to the same notion. There may also be geographical or generational differences in the commonly-understood meaning of certain terms. Or subtle differences of definition, depending on whether a word is serving as a noun or an adjective. I was using the terms "fake" and "knockoff" in their broadest sense, just equating them to "not genuine" or "an unsanctioned copy". Your own narrower definitions would actually be comparable to the meanings I attribute to other words, like "counterfeit" and "forgery". At the risk of labouring the point, note as well how misunderstandings can arise due to different assumptions about which aspects specifically are being referred to. For example, when I describe as fake a Dirty Funker record with a Ban ksy image on its sleeve, it could easily be inferred that I'm saying, "That's a fake Banksy record" or "That's a fake Dirty Funker record". Whereas my intended meaning is closer to "That's a fake Banksy" โ the emphasis being on the image, rather than the overall product. Most important, however, is the fact there seems to be no substantive confusion between us regarding what we're discussing. 2. Banksy's position on others using his imageryYour reference to the artist having "always said that he is fine people using his image as long as it is not sold as Banksy art" is misleading. Via his website, Pest Control Office, and comments to the press, he has long made a straightforward distinction: A. Non‑commercial use and personal amusementExample: You or me printing an image from Ban ksy.co.uk and sticking it on our fridge. [Advance consent provided by the artist = Okay] versusB. Unauthorised commercial useExample: Paul Glancy stealing Radar Rat, Kate and Happy Choppers imagery, and using it on the sleeves of Dirty Funker releases โ piggybacking on Ban ksy's popularity to sell records that most collectors would otherwise have no interest in. [Theft from the artist = Not okay] __________ Set out below is a handful of the many comments Banksy has posted on his website over the years, regarding the use by others of his images. Both the letter and spirit of his words seem consistent and clear: This shop is intended for personal amusement only, not for mass producing product. Thanks.Please note: This shop is for personal amusement only. Please don't use it to start a business. Thanks.Banksy does not produce greeting cards or print photo-canvases or paint commissions or sell freshly baked bagels. Please take anything from this site and make your own (non‑commercial use only thanks).You're welcome to download whatever you wish from this site for personal use. However, making your own art or merchandise and passing it off as โofficialโ or authentic Banksy artwork is bad and very wrong.3. EUIPO casesRegarding the European Union Intellectual Property Office cases in recent years between Pest Control Office and Full Colour Black, some conclusions you've drawn are incorrect. However, this would only be a collateral issue, because the cases relate to legislative and regulatory concerns, especially trademark registration requirements, which are distinct from the principles‑based arguments I was focusing on. [My wariness of forum posts on the EUIPO cases is that they're frequently muddled or littered with inaccuracies.
Authors of such posts rarely give the impression of understanding this specialist area, even when they seem fully at ease about commenting. Perhaps they rely solely on superficial press coverage of the cases, without (a) also reading the source materials like the EUIPO decisions themselves, or (b) first trying to get a basic grasp of intellectual property law, including the crucial differences between copyright and trademark.
For want of time and inclination, I try to avoid engaging in these instances, bearing in mind Brandolini's law and the technical nature of the subject matter.]__________ There may be issues we still disagree on, but I hope the above helps to clarify my stance. Talking about ignorant and education and getting the first principles totally wrong It is not a fake no a knockoff as per definition. A fake or knockoff is a product that is an exact copy or imitation of an authentic item and I don't recall Ban ksy releasing these. It is a bootleg, that is a product sold illegally without any authorisation. Also, Ban ksy always said that he is fine people using his image as long as it is not sold as Ban ksy art; he is actually the main reason why he lost his court case against that company doing postal cards (aside not commercialising his products/images). For sure, copying is wrong but when the artist itself says a) he doesn't care and b) fails to create a company to sell merchandising and crap (to protect his image under the IP law, which is more or less based on competition in market); then anyone is free to use the image and no, it is not stolen images (it was not at that time, it is now for anyone thinking of doing another printing since Ban ksy has a duly registered company now). He said it's ok to use as long as not for commercial purposes, he's not ok with it being used to make money, is the gist of it This is the kind of conciseness I am constantly aspiring to, but almost always fail to achieve. Thank you. who did Panda with handguns? Julien Fanton D'Andon*, a French director who specialises in advertising commercials for beauty and luxury brands. It was in 2005, shortly after graduating from Penninghen in Pa ris (an institution that teaches art direction, communication and interior architecture), that D'Andon designed his panda with handguns for the French youth-clothing brand, Kulte. A few years later, in 2009, the panda was taken on as a logo by the then‑new record label, Bad Panda Records. Presumably due to its aesthetic and sensibility, the image is regularly misattributed to Ban ksy. And as is often the case with falsehoods, in a seemingly-never-ending cycle, they are perpetuated by consumers of information โ who accept what they read at fa ce value and then further disseminate it without bothering to fact‑check beforehand. Having done a quick search on this message board, a hat‑tip seems well‑deserved: ilmambo looks to have been the first fo rum member to mention D'Andon, way back in March 2012 *.
|
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Damien Hirst Secret Garden Painting Print release, by met on Apr 10, 2024 13:55:35 GMT 1, ยฃ55k for a complete set works out at ยฃ7k each. A nice 2x as predicted based on current comparables. Even when you remove the complete set premium, will still see a 1.25x-1.5x multiplier. Great job for those that managed to purchase a piece.
This kind of post is appreciated, because sound reasoning is often just so boring.
Pretty much any random individual can open a seller's account on Artsy. And it's probably even easier if they call themselves a gallery. They can then pick whatever asking prices they want for their wares.
So if I have time next week, I'll try to list a complete set of these Hirsts for ยฃ800,000. Or maybe ยฃ5,000,000.
The artwork might still be cringeworthy. But holy moly, my multipliers are going to kick some serious ass.
ยฃ55k for a complete set works out at ยฃ7k each. A nice 2x as predicted based on current comparables. Even when you remove the complete set premium, will still see a 1.25x-1.5x multiplier. Great job for those that managed to purchase a piece. This kind of post is appreciated, because sound reasoning is often just so boring. Pretty much any random individual can open a seller's account on Artsy. And it's probably even easier if they call themselves a gallery. They can then pick whatever asking prices they want for their wares. So if I have time next week, I'll try to list a complete set of these Hir sts for ยฃ800,000. Or maybe ยฃ5,000,000. The artwork might still be cringeworthy. But holy moly, my multipliers are going to kick some serious a ss.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Edgar plans liited edition, by met on Apr 10, 2024 3:57:51 GMT 1, ART SCULPTURE LIMITED EDITION (200 UNITS PER COLOR) DESIGNED BY EDGAR PLANS 2300 usd each Sculpture size: 20 x 15 x 13(d)cm Package size: 34 x 26 x 15(d)cm
After Scamming and Rug Pulling the NFT project, I am not sure he'll have an easy path ahead... Tried Googling to find out what actually happened? Is there a thread? Can't see much.. Feel free to inbox, don't want to de-rail the sellers thread... Apologies and thank you ๐
The short version is that it was a scam involving millions of dollars and a few people made money and a lot of people lost money. It was so bad, Iโm surprised none of the names below (in an image I made at the height of the scam) has been prosecuted. Edgar Plans was fully complicit in this and there is no defence for being a moron. Iโm sorry to the OP as they are trying to sell, but anything related to Edgar Plans will forever be tainted. You will have better luck selling Rolf Harris paintings.
Bump for the seller. It's a lovely thing and GLWTS. Edgar Plans said last week in an instagram reply; "...I donโt manage the lil heroes project. Is a company. I hope start to do good things around NFTs." Which, if true, is absolutely insane and I wouldn't touch it with yours. He needs to take accountability. The project totally ruined his credibility. Hack.
The loss of credibility by Edgar Plans arguably occurred much earlier.
As was also the case with the derivative and truly insipid Javier Calleja, for me it happened the very moment I first discovered the Saturday-morning-cartoon-style illustrations by Plans.
This does perhaps raise broader societal issues.
When large numbers of primary schoolchildren can afford to spend $20+ on art, then I would suggest there may be a problem.
Parents who dish out excessively-generous weekly allowances are doing their kids absolutely no favours in the long run.
ART SCULPTURE LIMITED EDITION (200 UNITS PER COLOR) DESIGNED BY EDGAR PLANS 2300 usd each Sculpture size: 20 x 15 x 13(d)cm Package size: 34 x 26 x 15(d)cm After Scamming and Rug Pulling the NFT project, I am not sure he'll have an easy path ahead... Tried Googling to find out what actually happened? Is there a thread? Can't see much.. Feel free to inbox, don't want to de-rail the sellers thread... Apologies and thank you ๐ The short version is that it was a scam involving millions of dollars and a few people made money and a lot of people lost money. It was so bad, Iโm surprised none of the names below (in an image I made at the height of the scam) has been prosecuted. Edgar Plans was fully complicit in this and there is no defence for being a moron. Iโm sorry to the OP as they are trying to sell, but anything related to Edgar Plans will forever be tainted. You will have better luck selling Rolf Harris paintings. Bump for the seller. It's a lovely thing and GLWTS. Edgar Plans said last week in an instagram reply; "...I donโt manage the lil heroes project. Is a company. I hope start to do good things around NFTs." Which, if true, is absolutely insane and I wouldn't touch it with yours. He needs to take accountability. The project totally ruined his credibility. Hack. The loss of credibility by Edgar Plans arguably occurred much earlier. As was also the case with the derivative and truly insipid Javier Calleja, for me it happened the very moment I first discovered the Saturday-morning-cartoon-style illustrations by Plans. This does perhaps raise broader societal issues. When large numbers of primary schoolchildren can afford to spend $20+ on art, then I would suggest there may be a problem. Parents who dish out excessively-generous weekly allowances are doing their kids absolutely no favours in the long run.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
STIK โTHANKS FROM STIKโ - Original on card, by met on Apr 10, 2024 3:09:04 GMT 1, Unframed ยฃ3,999.98
Diversity of viewpoint is always an asset for a message board.
You refer to the above piece as being a "STIK Original on card".
Whereas I myself would call it a "Thank-you note with a doodle".
And (assuming genuineness) would value it in the low three figures, rather than ยฃ4K.
Unframed ยฃ3,999.98 Diversity of viewpoint is always an asset for a message board. You refer to the above piece as being a "STIK Original on card". Whereas I myself would call it a "Thank-you note with a doodle". And (assuming genuineness) would value it in the low three figures, rather than ยฃ4K.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Banksy - Album Covers (with LPs) for sale, by met on Apr 8, 2024 11:32:15 GMT 1, Maybe a bit of self-reflection is required. Perhaps all round.
Not sure if I understand what you mean here.
But for what it's worth, my initial post was based on a couple of first principles.
They served as the foundation and underlying motivation for that post (as well as for plenty of others I've written):
A. Stealing from artists is wrong
B. Informed collectors > Uninformed collectors
Neither of these seems extreme to me. Or even controversial, for that matter.
__________
If your own position is different, it would be interesting to hear. Because we could then identify a substantive disagreement of principle between us. One that might even lead to insightful exchanges of contrasting views.
But if your own position on the above first principles is actually similar to mine, this too would be good to hear. It would mean there was no substantive disagreement of principle between you and me.
What might then still separate us would likely be relatively trivial โ whether down to differences in preferred approach, in emphasis or degree of militancy, or just in our personality types.
And as far as I'm concerned, those are the kinds of differences to be celebrated here. They, especially, are the ones that enrich this forum.
Maybe a bit of self-reflection is required. Perhaps all round. Not sure if I understand what you mean here. But for what it's worth, my initial post was based on a couple of first principles. They served as the foundation and underlying motivation for that post (as well as for plenty of others I've written): A. Stealing from artists is wrong
B. Informed collectors > Uninformed collectorsNeither of these seems extreme to me. Or even controversial, for that matter. __________ If your own position is different, it would be interesting to hear. Because we could then identify a substantive disagreement of principle between us. One that might even lead to insightful exchanges of contrasting views. But if your own position on the above first principles is actually similar to mine, this too would be good to hear. It would mean there was no substantive disagreement of principle between you and me. What might then still separate us would likely be relatively trivial โ whether down to differences in preferred approach, in emphasis or degree of militancy, or just in our personality types. And as far as I'm concerned, those are the kinds of differences to be celebrated here. They, especially, are the ones that enrich this fo rum.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Banksy - Album Covers (with LPs) for sale, by met on Apr 8, 2024 9:17:46 GMT 1, Sure there are plenty of interested buyers out there, as these have been sold via these messageboards before, and will be again, despite what the pompous self-appointed fun police say. Welcone to the boards, and good luck with the sale.๐
If the text I've highlighted in red was partly or wholly directed at me, my thoughts are as follows:
1. "pompous"
A fair comment, or at least not unfair, albeit one that mainly appears to be about the tone of my post.
Tone is an aspect I do try to keep in mind when drafting (I normally aim for "robotic") โ especially when there's a risk it can detract from the substance of my posts, thereby making them less effective.
Happy to take this criticism on the chin.
2. "self-appointed"
This feels weak.
Because literally anybody who steps up, sticks their head above the parapet, and voices their thoughts/experiences or debates a position, can be described as self‑appointed.
That's been the case with you, just as it has with me, and with pretty much all of our fellow members who are active participants on the forum.
But query also what the alternatives are:
Indifference? Members biting their tongues, for fear of possibly rocking the boat or causing upset?
If we're advocating for apathy or cowardice, or for people to just shut up and stop expressing their views, then I would argue that defeats the very purpose (and potential benefits) of a public message board.
3. "fun police"
Here is where it gets interesting, where there's a proper criticism that seemingly relates to the substance of my post.
Now, if anyone feels that members who share opinions and factual information, or who give others a heads‑up about marketplace perils, are "policing" the forum and ruining the "fun", then so be it. It's their call to make.
Though I would suggest this may be a distortion of both definitions. The latter one in particular, since I don't consider it "fun" when people end up paying over the odds as a result of not knowing what they were really buying.
That said, I do accept the overpaying could be great fun, at least for sellers who might have no qualms about exploiting information asymmetries they are the beneficiaries of.
When expensive Banksy tat is offloaded onto ignorant buyers (those quite often under a misapprehension regarding the status of such tat and its actual connection to the artist), there may well be full‑on belly laughs afterwards from some of the sellers involved.
And maybe even more so when those sellers sense they can count on rarely being challenged โ perhaps having previously received free passes from knowing onlookers who chose to remain silent.
Sure there are plenty of interested buyers out there, as these have been sold via these messageboards before, and will be again, despite what the pompous self-appointed fun police say. Welcone to the boards, and good luck with the sale.๐ If the text I've highlighted in red was partly or wholly directed at me, my thoughts are as follows: 1. "pompous"A fair comment, or at least not unfair, albeit one that mainly appears to be about the tone of my post. Tone is an aspect I do try to keep in mind when drafting (I normally aim for "robotic") โ especially when there's a risk it can detract from the substance of my posts, thereby making them less effective. Happy to take this criticism on the chin. 2. "self-appointed"This feels weak. Because literally anybody who steps up, sticks their head above the parapet, and voices their thoughts/experiences or debates a position, can be described as self‑appointed. That's been the case with you, just as it has with me, and with pretty much all of our fellow members who are active participants on the fo rum. But query also what the alternatives are: Indifference? Members biting their tongues, for fear of possibly rocking the boat or causing upset? If we're advocating for apathy or cowardice, or for people to just shut up and stop expressing their views, then I would argue that defeats the very purpose (and potential benefits) of a public message board. 3. "fun police"Here is where it gets interesting, where there's a proper criticism that seemingly relates to the substance of my post. Now, if anyone feels that members who share opinions and factual information, or who give others a heads‑up about marketplace perils, are "policing" the fo rum and ruining the "fun", then so be it. It's their call to make. Though I would suggest this may be a distortion of both definitions. The latter one in particular, since I don't consider it "fun" when people end up paying over the odds as a result of not knowing what they were really buying. That said, I do accept the overpaying could be great fun, at least for sellers who might have no qualms about exploiting information asymmetries they are the beneficiaries of. When expensive Ban ksy tat is offloaded onto ignorant buyers (those quite often under a misapprehension regarding the status of such tat and its actual connection to the artist), there may well be full‑on belly laughs afterwards from some of the sellers involved. And maybe even more so when those sellers sense they can count on rarely being challenged โ perhaps having previously received free passes from knowing onlookers who chose to remain silent.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Banksy - Album Covers (with LPs) for sale, by met on Apr 8, 2024 8:10:07 GMT 1, Hi met, thanks for enlightening me about the history of the record covers. I see now why they may be referred to as โfakeโ, even if they are not โfakesโ. I purchased these in 2008 under the impression they were legit associated with Ban ksy. So, in this case I was the ignorant buyer then and the ignorant seller now! In any case, I am selling them for what they are then, as collectors are interested in them, which I can also understand. I agree, it is important that people know exactly what they are buying (and selling), so thank you for adding this information to the post.
No worries. Happy to help.
And I appreciate your courtesy reply. Especially its non‑defensiveness, which is most refreshing.
__________
As for you initially believing the Dirty Funker records were officially connected to Banksy, this is unsurprising.
Plenty of other collectors have been in the same boat. And many, many more continue to be.
Because that 2008 release was dishonest and cynical: Calculated to give the impression of legitimacy โ in order to fill certain trouser pockets with cash, by selling hundreds of records which would otherwise have languished on store shelves or in a warehouse.
__________
Paul Glancy (a.k.a. Dirty Funker) can, without unfairness, be described as a parasite.
He has been consistent with his thieving.
Every Banksy image on his record sleeves (whether Radar Rat, Kate or Happy Choppers) was appropriated. Used unofficially, without consent from the artist.
Of course, Glancy is far from being the only person who has leeched off Banksy in this manner.
But it's his Dirty Funker records in particular which seem to have duped the most collectors into wrongly believing they're genuine Banksy items.
Similar accusations can be made against the DJDM (โ Danger Mouse) releases from 2008, featuring stolen Laugh Now and Keep It Real imagery.
__________
Among enthusiasts of Banksy's artwork, your previous self was probably in the majority. A majority that is in large part oblivious or misinformed.
This has helped to establish an arguably dominant culture, where:
(i) falsehoods are perpetuated in a seemingly-never-ending cycle of nonsense; and
(ii) countless fans are repeatedly getting misled and ripped off.
No wonder we keep witnessing ridiculous or disheartening situations like:
(a) Still Sane (Elizabeth II as Aladdin Sane, by the Bristol artist IncWel) being prominently displayed at one of the unofficial "Banksy" exhibitions that have toured around the world charging elevated entrance fees;
(b) people on Instagram showing off their new tattoos of a panda with handguns, accompanied by the hashtags #banksy and #banksytattoo; and
(c) Dirty Funker and DJDM records actually being sold for three‑figure sums.
It's the blind leading the blind.
Plus, every now and then, it is also the knowledgeable-yet-unscrupulous manipulating and shafting the blind.
__________
Welcome, and thanks for crossing over to the side of the better‑informed minority.
In terms of our numbers, there isn't yet a critical mass โ one that could lead to a tipping point, based on increased awareness within the marketplace for Banksy ephemera.
Hopefully, we'll get there eventually.
And if such a tipping point is ever reached, the demand for fake Banksy records might then suddenly take a long‑overdue nosedive.
Hi met, thanks for enlightening me about the history of the record covers. I see now why they may be referred to as โfakeโ, even if they are not โfakesโ. I purchased these in 2008 under the impression they were legit associated with Ban ksy. So, in this case I was the ignorant buyer then and the ignorant seller now! In any case, I am selling them for what they are then, as collectors are interested in them, which I can also understand. I agree, it is important that people know exactly what they are buying (and selling), so thank you for adding this information to the post. No worries. Happy to help. And I appreciate your courtesy reply. Especially its non‑defensiveness, which is most refreshing. __________ As for you initially believing the Dirty Funker records were officially connected to Ban ksy, this is unsurprising. Plenty of other collectors have been in the same boat. And many, many more continue to be. Because that 2008 release was dishonest and cynical: Calculated to give the impression of legitimacy โ in order to fill certain trouser pockets with cash, by selling hundreds of records which would otherwise have languished on store shelves or in a warehouse. __________ Paul Glancy (a.k.a. Dirty Funker) can, without unfairness, be described as a parasite. He has been consistent with his thieving. Every Ban ksy image on his record sleeves (whether Radar Rat, Kate or Happy Choppers) was appropriated. Used unofficially, without consent from the artist. Of course, Glancy is far from being the only person who has leeched off Ban ksy in this manner. But it's his Dirty Funker records in particular which seem to have duped the most collectors into wrongly believing they're genuine Ban ksy items. Similar accusations can be made against the DJDM (โ Danger Mouse) releases from 2008, featuring stolen Laugh Now and Keep It Real imagery. __________ Among enthusiasts of Ban ksy's artwork, your previous self was probably in the majority. A majority that is in large part oblivious or misinformed. This has helped to establish an arguably dominant culture, where: (i) falsehoods are perpetuated in a seemingly-never-ending cycle of nonsense; and (ii) countless fans are repeatedly getting misled and ripped off. No wonder we keep witnessing ridiculous or disheartening situations like: (a) Still Sane (Elizabeth II as Aladdin Sane, by the Bristol artist IncWel) being prominently displayed at one of the unofficial "Ban ksy" exhibitions that have toured around the world charging elevated entrance fees; (b) people on Inst agram showing off their new tattoos of a panda with handguns, accompanied by the hashtags #banksy and #banksytattoo; and (c) Dirty Funker and DJDM records actually being sold for three‑figure sums. It's the blind leading the blind. Plus, every now and then, it is also the knowledgeable-yet-unscrupulous manipulating and shafting the blind. __________ Welcome, and thanks for crossing over to the side of the better‑informed minority. In terms of our numbers, there isn't yet a critical mass โ one that could lead to a tipping point, based on increased awareness within the marketplace for Ban ksy ephemera. Hopefully, we'll get there eventually. And if such a tipping point is ever reached, the demand for fake Ban ksy records might then suddenly take a long‑overdue nosedive.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Banksy - Album Covers (with LPs) for sale, by met on Apr 5, 2024 3:14:01 GMT 1, Hi, I am looking to sell the below Radar Rat album covers, all with original LPs. Price - Open to offers Location - Lon don I am looking to sell and am open to all (reasonable!) offers. Thanks
๐ฉ *Fake Copies of Ban ksy - Album Covers (with LPs) for sale
Wow, maybe I'm new to this forum, but I am a bit taken aback by your comment there. By what basis are you claiming they are fake? Happy for any *serious* buyer to assess them for themselves.
They mean fake as in these were mass-produced with unauthorised license of the image. They're genuine DF records, no doubt.
These would seem to be Dirty Funker records.
And just like all other Dirty Funker records featuring images by Banksy, the use of that imagery was unauthorised.
It was appropriated and exploited by third parties, without the consent of the artist himself.
As referred to above by mandem, what you are therefore offering can simultaneously be described as:
(a) authentic Dirty Funker records; and
(b) Banksy knockoffs, or Banksy fakes.
[My sole qualification is that I don't believe there exists a licence. This was more likely a case of straight theft, without any accompanying paperwork.]
But by a long stretch, the main selling point of the records is the stolen Banksy imagery on their sleeves. As opposed to the actual music โ which at best will be of secondary concern to most owners.
Hence "Fake Copies" being a fair description by soupy, even if broad‑brush.
__________
I myself would actively discourage anyone from buying both these particular records and others like them.
They have no legitimate place on this platform, or in the Banksy market proper.
And so, at least in my view, posts (including repetitive ones) that inform or remind others of the true status of these records are beneficial to the wider community of collectors.
Whenever possible, it's important that we acquire items in a fully‑informed manner, with open eyes.
A marketplace filled with too many ignorant or deluded buyers is never healthy. It can only benefit the more predatory sellers among us, who are happy to take advantage of every dupe they encounter.
Hi, I am looking to sell the below Radar Rat album covers, all with original LPs. Price - Open to offers Location - Lon don I am looking to sell and am open to all (reasonable!) offers. Thanks ๐ฉ *Fake Copies of Ban ksy - Album Covers (with LPs) for sale Wow, maybe I'm new to this forum, but I am a bit taken aback by your comment there. By what basis are you claiming they are fake? Happy for any *serious* buyer to assess them for themselves. They mean fake as in these were mass-produced with unauthorised license of the image. They're genuine DF records, no doubt. These would seem to be Dirty Funker records. And just like all other Dirty Funker records featuring images by Ban ksy, the use of that imagery was unauthorised. It was appropriated and exploited by third parties, without the consent of the artist himself. As referred to above by mandem, what you are therefore offering can simultaneously be described as: (a) authentic Dirty Funker records; and (b) Ban ksy knockoffs, or Ban ksy fakes. [My sole qualification is that I don't believe there exists a licence. This was more likely a case of straight theft, without any accompanying paperwork.]But by a long stretch, the main selling point of the records is the stolen Banksy imagery on their sleeves. As opposed to the actual music โ which at best will be of secondary concern to most owners. Hence "Fake Copies" being a fair description by soupy, even if broad‑brush. __________ I myself would actively discourage anyone from buying both these particular records and others like them. They have no legitimate place on this platform, or in the Ban ksy market proper. And so, at least in my view, posts (including repetitive ones) that inform or remind others of the true status of these records are beneficial to the wider community of collectors. Whenever possible, it's important that we acquire items in a fully‑informed manner, with open eyes. A marketplace filled with too many ignorant or deluded buyers is never healthy. It can only benefit the more predatory sellers among us, who are happy to take advantage of every dupe they encounter.
|
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Leo Boyd ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release โข Show News โข Art For Sale, by met on Apr 2, 2024 3:35:46 GMT 1, Ah this is amazing news. I have just found out that my work (and my studio) are being featured in the art edition of Unicode Magazine! And Iโm on the front cover too! Head on over to Unicode to read the full feature or pop down to your local Newsagents to pick up the latest copy.
Congratulations on what seems like a fun feature.
Some feedback and comments regarding the above photos and text, whether to be taken on board or dismissed:
1. There is a risk of unintentionally coming across as a bit narcissistic, given the number of self‑portraits in your studio.
2. Minor typo corrections:
(i) Scott (not "Scot") McCloud; and
(ii) query whether the McCloud book referred to should instead be, Understanding Comics: The Invisible Art (1993).
3. Along with other notable figures including Art Spiegelman and Matt Groening, Susan Kare has also paid tribute to McCloud.
If interested, check out this 2018 talk by Kare at the Smithsonian National Museum of American History in Washington, D.C., especially from 10:49โ12:45:
Ah this is amazing news. I have just found out that my work (and my studio) are being featured in the art edition of Unicode Magazine! And Iโm on the front cover too! Head on over to Unicode to read the full feature or pop down to your local Newsagents to pick up the latest copy. Congratulations on what seems like a fun feature. Some feedback and comments regarding the above photos and text, whether to be taken on board or dismissed: 1. There is a risk of unintentionally coming across as a bit narcissistic, given the number of self‑portraits in your studio. 2. Minor typo corrections: (i) Scott (not "Scot") McCloud; and (ii) query whether the McCloud book referred to should instead be, Understanding Comics: The Invisible Art (1993). 3. Along with other notable figures including Art Spiegelman and Matt Groening, Susan Kare has also paid tribute to McCloud. If interested, check out this 2018 talk by Kare at the Smithsonian National Museum of American History in Washington, D.C., especially from 10:49โ12:45:
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Banksy Christ With Shopping Print, by met on Apr 2, 2024 2:33:51 GMT 1, Hi, I am looking to sell the below signed Ban ksy with COA from PC I am also open to swaps for works by Ban ksy / Hirst / Hockney / Riley Ban ksy - Christ with Shopping Price - ยฃ47,000 Location - Lon don Unframed. Great condition. Small fade around edges from previous framing. Have had this sold a few times and sales have fell through for various reasons.
A lot of people say itโs not wall friendly but for some reason, I do like it! (And WANT it!) ๐ฉ
Possibly because our mothers always warned us not to accept anything from strangers.
So when a stranger actually does appear bearing gifts, we instinctively recoil.
Especially if they're some kind of unkempt hipster, semi‑naked and wearing a nappy.
That guy really isn't the kind of person I'd be happy sitting next to on the bus or the train.
Hi, I am looking to sell the below signed Ban ksy with COA from PC I am also open to swaps for works by Ban ksy / Hirst / Hockney / Riley Ban ksy - Christ with Shopping Price - ยฃ47,000 Location - Lon don Unframed. Great condition. Small fade around edges from previous framing. Have had this sold a few times and sales have fell through for various reasons. A lot of people say itโs not wall friendly but for some reason, I do like it! (And WANT it!) ๐ฉ Possibly because our mothers always warned us not to accept anything from strangers. So when a stranger actually does appear bearing gifts, we instinctively recoil. Especially if they're some kind of unkempt hipster, semi‑naked and wearing a nappy. That guy really isn't the kind of person I'd be happy sitting next to on the bus or the train.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Banksy + Royksopp, by met on Mar 30, 2024 2:03:49 GMT 1, Hi. I've decided its time to sell my Ban ksy / Royksopp Melody AM promo 2x12" white label vinyl. This is numbered 38/100. For those who don't know, this was a 2001 limited edition of 100 worldwide promotional copies of the debut album by Royksopp, issued by their label Wall of Sound. Ban ksy was commissioned to hand stencil the covers, which feature a stencil of some conifer trees and the band's logo. The promo includes an A4 Wall of Sound press release which states 'original artwork by Ban ksy' (Ban ksy around the same time provided the cover artwork for the label's 'We Love You...' compilation). From 1996-2005 I worked for the band's UK concert promoters (Metropolis Music) and I was given my copy by the band's booking agent, Peter Elliott of Primary Talent. The record sat in my collection, unplayed, for many years - I had no clue I even owned it, never mind the Ban ksy connection - until a few years ago when I found it and realised its significance. As the promos were not released through Pictures On Walls there's no Pest Control certification for them - hopefully my provenance is reassuring. There are a few different theories about when / how if Ban ksy stencilled them, including the significance of lighter / darker paint (mine is the darker colour, which tallies with being #38). You can read about it hereAnd you can hear the band talking about the Ban ksy covers here (Svein Berge from the band has #1 and #7) - listen from 22:44 and 28:50 There's been some debate on forums about whether Ban ksy actually stencilled the promos himself by hand - this clears it up: he did. He also talks about the different green colours and how the records were distributed to the industry (people like me). And about how he visited the band in Norway, for those who are interested. So - condition. The vinyl records themselves are mint condition and unplayed. The cover was stored with other records for some years and therefore has some slight rubbing as you can see in the photos. As to value: make me an offer! Secure courier postage to be organised by the buyer. Thanks for reading.
Still unclear to me why PCO would not authenticate these. Great stuff.
It is down to the restricted parameters of oversight that Pest Control Office sets for itself.
Broadly, in order to qualify for a certificate of authenticity, a Banksy item must be deemed to be "a commercial work of art".
Neither the medium/technique itself (in this case, an album cover stencil‑sprayed by hand), nor the fact there are very limited numbers (here, 100), enters the equation.
Likewise when it comes to the source of the relevant items: Banksy original paintings and screenprints from Pictures On Walls qualify for a COA, whereas Banksy tote bags, t‑shirts and stickers from Pictures On Walls do not.
This album cover was paid‑for illustration work, commissioned by a record label.
Regardless of rarity, collectibility or market value, it is attributed a status by Pest Control Office that is equivalent or comparable to that of other Banksy ephemera โ like Paris Hilton CDs or individual Di‑Faced Tenner notes.
Hi. I've decided its time to sell my Ban ksy / Royksopp Melody AM promo 2x12" white label vinyl. This is numbered 38/100. For those who don't know, this was a 2001 limited edition of 100 worldwide promotional copies of the debut album by Royksopp, issued by their label Wall of Sound. Ban ksy was commissioned to hand stencil the covers, which feature a stencil of some conifer trees and the band's logo. The promo includes an A4 Wall of Sound press release which states 'original artwork by Ban ksy' (Ban ksy around the same time provided the cover artwork for the label's 'We Love You...' compilation). From 1996-2005 I worked for the band's UK concert promoters (Metropolis Music) and I was given my copy by the band's booking agent, Peter Elliott of Primary Talent. The record sat in my collection, unplayed, for many years - I had no clue I even owned it, never mind the Ban ksy connection - until a few years ago when I found it and realised its significance. As the promos were not released through Pictures On Walls there's no Pest Control certification for them - hopefully my provenance is reassuring. There are a few different theories about when / how if Ban ksy stencilled them, including the significance of lighter / darker paint (mine is the darker colour, which tallies with being #38). You can read about it hereAnd you can hear the band talking about the Ban ksy covers here (Svein Berge from the band has #1 and #7) - listen from 22:44 and 28:50 There's been some debate on forums about whether Ban ksy actually stencilled the promos himself by hand - this clears it up: he did. He also talks about the different green colours and how the records were distributed to the industry (people like me). And about how he visited the band in Norway, for those who are interested. So - condition. The vinyl records themselves are mint condition and unplayed. The cover was stored with other records for some years and therefore has some slight rubbing as you can see in the photos. As to value: make me an offer! Secure courier postage to be organised by the buyer. Thanks for reading. Still unclear to me why PCO would not authenticate these. Great stuff. It is down to the restricted parameters of oversight that Pest Control Office sets for itself. Broadly, in order to qualify for a certificate of authenticity, a Ban ksy item must be deemed to be "a commercial work of art". Neither the medium/ technique itself (in this case, an album cover stencil‑sprayed by hand), nor the fact there are very limited numbers (here, 100), enters the equation. Likewise when it comes to the source of the relevant items: Ban ksy original paintings and screenprints from Pictures On Walls qualify for a COA, whereas Ban ksy tote bags, t‑shirts and stickers from Pictures On Walls do not. This album cover was paid‑for illustration work, commissioned by a record label. Regardless of rarity, collectibility or market value, it is attributed a status by Pest Control Office that is equivalent or comparable to that of other Ban ksy ephemera โ like Pa ris Hilton CDs or individual Di‑Faced Tenner notes.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Who is this thenโฆ, by met on Mar 30, 2024 0:13:20 GMT 1,
Awesome. Thank you for the photos.
__________
When was this?
Looks like you showed up at the perfect moment:
Some welcome peace and quiet. Especially given the slight frenzy over the last 12 days.
No pushing or shoving. Nobody hassling anyone. Nobody blocking the view.
You could remain in prime position, up‑close.
And take all the time you wanted to check out that wooden hoarding and those two separate layers of plastic.
Awesome. Thank you for the photos. __________ When was this? Looks like you showed up at the perfect moment: Some welcome peace and quiet. Especially given the slight frenzy over the last 12 days. No pushing or shoving. Nobody hassling anyone. Nobody blocking the view. You could remain in prime position, up‑close. And take all the time you wanted to check out that wooden hoarding and those two separate layers of plastic.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Grayson Perry ๐ฌ๐ง Ceramic โข Tapestry โข Exhibition News, by met on Mar 19, 2024 15:01:47 GMT 1, For Sale: New and never displayed Grayson Perry Key Worker #4 with the yellow hair and cat. This is the most popular one. Perfect conditon, ยฃ220 plus shipping or can meet in London.
Key worker, without a doubt.
And the apparent popularity of this piece is unsurprising, especially if among younger collectors.
Hat tip as well to Grayson Perry, for having so‑perfectly captured the tragic nature of the situation depicted:
A newly‑furloughed Ronald McDonald โ contemplative, wistful, and somewhat resentful about his drop in status to a mere civilian.
For Sale: New and never displayed Grayson Perry Key Worker #4 with the yellow hair and cat. This is the most popular one. Perfect conditon, ยฃ220 plus shipping or can meet in London. Key worker, without a doubt. And the apparent popularity of this piece is unsurprising, especially if among younger collectors. Hat tip as well to Grayson Perry, for having so‑perfectly captured the tragic nature of the situation depicted: A newly‑furloughed Ronald McDonald โ contemplative, wistful, and somewhat resentful about his drop in status to a mere civilian.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Who is this thenโฆ, by met on Mar 18, 2024 22:28:15 GMT 1, [...]
Thank you for the heads‑up.
Hornsey Rd, Finsbury Park, London N19 4HT [...]
Cheers for the helpful address. Much obliged.
Somewhere, there's a Perspex seller planning early retirement.
That made me chuckle. Thank you.
I love this piece! although I don't think this is a Ban ksy. The technique is different from what he usually does. The green in the character is painted on top of the black and Banksy would paint it behind the black and keep open spaces in the black layer to let the green through. He would first paint the black layer for reference and paint the colored bits, then repaint the black layer again for the end result. A good example of his technique is in this video: www.instagram.com/tv/CMAHrGPFV2V/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==But this is only my 2 cents ;-)
Some random points that come to mind:
1. Banksy's techniques have evolved, becoming increasingly multivarious and sophisticated.
I've previously referred to him as being a stencil artist, but would now consider that description misleading.
While the bulk of his work continues to be stencil‑based, many non‑stencil embellishing techniques have often been incorporated into his work, especially over the past decade โ such as freehand spraying with cans, hand‑spraying with spray bottles, and hand‑painting with brushes, rollers, even fingertips.
2. The techniques that Banksy opts for won't always be consistent. They are piece-dependent, chosen according to what will best suit each artwork.
In this instance, one could say it is just the black paint that truly represents the body of the character holding the pressure sprayer.
The green colours do not depict the woman herself (as would otherwise have been the case if flesh tones were included). They represent a partial failure, or at least a presumably-undesired consequence, of her intervention โ which has also resulted in her getting completely covered in paint.
Consequently, it makes sense here that the greens were added on top of the black base layer.
3. As with the floor routine of a professional gymnast, Banksy makes his work look relatively easy or simple. Deceptively so, in my view.
Even with the chosen palette, it isn't simply green and black. Three different colours of green were used: mint and sea green for the woman, and shamrock (mirroring Islington signage) for the replicated tree leaves:
Thank you for posting.
Those Instagram photos are interesting because they partially explain what was unclear to me on Sunday.
The second photo doesn't actually show the installation in its finished state.
Only the close‑up third photo looks to be of the completed piece. Water was applied in the interval, for added texture, shading and depth.
Spot the differences:
When viewing the work in person, I spent a while looking at the outline of the painted foliage.
My mistaken assumption was that the leaves were done, not just with a pressure sprayer, but also with a brush or roller at the end of an extension pole. This impression was due to the vertical lines in white. The cleanliness of those lines was inconsistent with the result that would be achieved by a green-paint-filled fire extinguisher or pressure sprayer alone.
I now realise those white lines were created by using water โ applied with a pressure sprayer to certain sections of the tree, and then allowed to drip down and dilute or wash away parts of the still‑wet green paint.
Compare and contrast the treetop cropped images of:
(a) Banksy's early, second Instagram photo on the left; versus
(b) my later photo (from a slightly different angle) on the right:
I don't dislike it aesthetically but don't understand the piece. The tree's obviously not dead, it's just winter. It will be full of bud soon and leaves in summer. The tree is being looked after. What am I missing?
Your comments and question are fair. And interesting too.
The BBC article* posted yesterday offers a few quotes by James Peak (with whom I'm on good terms), including the following:
"The message is clear," he said. "Nature's struggling and it is up to us to help it grow back."
His is a very valid perspective.
However, I would qualify it by adding that other credible interpretations also exist.
And in this respect, the message perhaps isn't quite so clear.
Nor can we definitely say there is but one single message.
__________
The artist's work appeals to me most when it avoids being overly prescriptive. When it remains open to different and even contradictory meanings.
Already referred to above is the fact that the character's actions have resulted, not only in the wall being covered in green paint, but herself as well.
There might thus be a side theme of self‑defeating behaviour here.
Who knows? Maybe even a self‑reference.
Coming back to the tree itself, which, as you say, is still very much alive (having simply been pollarded or topped, albeit quite aggressively, given the thickness of the cut branches), I would suggest it adds to the interpretative richness of Banksy's piece.
Fresh leaves will soon be sprouting from that tree, meaning the woman's intervention was, at least arguably, little more than a short‑term, superficial fix. An act that would soon become redundant.
And so, beyond any "Nature needs our help"‑style message that viewers might immediately attribute to the artwork, there is possibly a recognition of our complementary duties โ not just to hastily take action to address the urgent issues that need addressing, but to do so in a responsible and informed manner. To ensure our efforts aren't simply wasted. Or worse, counterproductive and harmful.
This could be viewed as Banksy's cautionary note, including to activists who lead with the best of intentions, but without always putting in the time to think things fully through.
What is it they say about the road to hell?
__________
Alternatively, Banksy could just be using clever placement to have a good laugh.
Wish I had thought of this myself, but it sadly never even occurred to me.
Cheers for the insight.
[...] Thank you for the heads‑up. Hornsey Rd, Finsbury Park, London N19 4HT [...] Cheers for the helpful address. Much obliged. Somewhere, there's a Perspex seller planning early retirement. That made me chuckle. Thank you. I love this piece! although I don't think this is a Ban ksy. The technique is different from what he usually does. The green in the character is painted on top of the black and Banksy would paint it behind the black and keep open spaces in the black layer to let the green through. He would first paint the black layer for reference and paint the colored bits, then repaint the black layer again for the end result. A good example of his technique is in this video: www.instagram.com/tv/CMAHrGPFV2V/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==But this is only my 2 cents ;-) Some random points that come to mind: 1. Ban ksy's techniques have evolved, becoming increasingly multivarious and sophisticated. I've previously referred to him as being a stencil artist, but would now consider that description misleading. While the bulk of his work continues to be stencil‑based, many non‑stencil embellishing techniques have often been incorporated into his work, especially over the past decade โ such as freehand spraying with cans, hand‑spraying with spray bottles, and hand‑painting with brushes, rollers, even fingertips. 2. The techniques that Ban ksy opts for won't always be consistent. They are piece-dependent, chosen according to what will best suit each artwork. In this instance, one could say it is just the black paint that truly represents the body of the character holding the pressure sprayer. The green colours do not depict the woman herself (as would otherwise have been the case if flesh tones were included). They represent a partial failure, or at least a presumably-undesired consequence, of her intervention โ which has also resulted in her getting completely covered in paint. Consequently, it makes sense here that the greens were added on top of the black base layer. 3. As with the floor routine of a professional gymnast, Ban ksy makes his work look relatively easy or simple. Deceptively so, in my view. Even with the chosen palette, it isn't simply green and black. Three different colours of green were used: mint and sea green for the woman, and shamrock (mirroring Islington signage) for the replicated tree leaves: Thank you for posting. Those Ins tagram photos are interesting because they partially explain what was unclear to me on Sunday. The second photo doesn't actually show the installation in its finished state. Only the close‑up third photo looks to be of the completed piece. Water was applied in the interval, for added texture, shading and depth. Spot the differences: When viewing the work in person, I spent a while looking at the outline of the painted foliage. My mistaken assumption was that the leaves were done, not just with a pressure sprayer, but also with a brush or roller at the end of an extension pole. This impression was due to the vertical lines in white. The cleanliness of those lines was inconsistent with the result that would be achieved by a green-paint-filled fire extinguisher or pressure sprayer alone. I now realise those white lines were created by using water โ applied with a pressure sprayer to certain sections of the tree, and then allowed to drip down and dilute or wash away parts of the still‑wet green paint. Compare and contrast the treetop cropped images of: (a) Ban ksy's early, second Ins tagram photo on the left; versus (b) my later photo (from a slightly different angle) on the right: I don't dislike it aesthetically but don't understand the piece. The tree's obviously not dead, it's just winter. It will be full of bud soon and leaves in summer. The tree is being looked after. What am I missing? Your comments and question are fair. And interesting too. The BBC article* posted yesterday offers a few quotes by James Peak (with whom I'm on good terms), including the following: "The message is clear," he said. "Nature's struggling and it is up to us to help it grow back."His is a very valid perspective. However, I would qualify it by adding that other credible interpretations also exist. And in this respect, the message perhaps isn't quite so clear. Nor can we definitely say there is but one single message. __________ The artist's work appeals to me most when it avoids being overly prescriptive. When it remains open to different and even contradictory meanings. Already referred to above is the fact that the character's actions have resulted, not only in the wall being covered in green paint, but herself as well. There might thus be a side theme of self‑defeating behaviour here. Who knows? Maybe even a self‑reference. Coming back to the tree itself, which, as you say, is still very much alive (having simply been pollarded or topped, albeit quite aggressively, given the thickness of the cut branches), I would suggest it adds to the interpretative richness of Ban ksy's piece. Fresh leaves will soon be sprouting from that tree, meaning the woman's intervention was, at least arguably, little more than a short‑term, superficial fix. An act that would soon become redundant. And so, beyond any "Nature needs our help"‑style message that viewers might immediately attribute to the artwork, there is possibly a recognition of our complementary duties โ not just to hastily take action to address the urgent issues that need addressing, but to do so in a responsible and informed manner. To ensure our efforts aren't simply wasted. Or worse, counterproductive and harmful. This could be viewed as Ban ksy's cautionary note, including to activists who lead with the best of intentions, but without always putting in the time to think things fully through. What is it they say about the road to hell? __________ Alternatively, Ban ksy could just be using clever placement to have a good laugh. Wish I had thought of this myself, but it sadly never even occurred to me. Cheers for the insight.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
Mr Doodle ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release โข Show News โข Art For Sale, by met on Feb 28, 2024 5:22:30 GMT 1,
Sorry to be blunt, but I can't see the value in these at all. Easily copied/replicated which make any provenance (including photos) virtually meaningless. Unless doodle himself authenticates them they are scribbles on plasterboard and nothing more.
I would consider Mr Doodle to be largely irrelevant as an artist.
That said, his marketing skills are excellent.
He certainly created a very media‑friendly and unthreatening, kooky identity for himself. In the process, he has also become somewhat of a pop‑culture and art‑market (as opposed to artistic) phenomenon.
Who knows how long his commercial success will last?
Style tends to distract or blind. And, at least in the short term, it can often be more seductive than substance.
In this respect, I would draw a parallel with Mr Brainwash.
The latter is another character who succeeded in capturing the imagination of (in my view) an undiscerning critical mass of collectors โ one that was also happy to buy easily‑digestible, sappy art.
In both cases, the public focus arguably remains more on the likeable cartoonish personas of the artists, than on the formulaic, derivative nature of their actual output as artists.
__________
The issues with this sale are nevertheless of interest to me.
They're comparable to the ones raised when a speculator bought the Faile Tower at Faile's 2010 Bedtime Stories show in New York, broke it up, and began selling the component parts separately.*
stylewars makes a compelling point about the need for authentication by Mr Doodle.
However, the easily‑copied nature of this work would only be of secondary concern if I were looking to make a purchase, because I have no serious reason to doubt it was created by the hand of the artist.
More problematic is the fact that, unless expressly and officially confirmed otherwise, this is not a Mr Doodle artwork and shouldn't be described or implied as such.
Rather, it is but one of many small sections of what was originally a much larger, single artwork. What was originally the complete artwork in its entirety.
But the overall whole was later cut into little pieces. And, presumably, this was done neither by Mr Doodle himself nor at his direction.
Some random third party will have thus usurped the prerogative of the artist. By chopping up the art, they:
(i) altered its size, layout and composition; and
(ii) changed its entire meaning (provided we can assume Mr Doodle's art has meaning).
__________
If I were the artist, I'd consider the original artwork to have been destroyed the very moment its integrity was compromised.
The separated smaller pieces are not, and were never meant to be, "artworks" in their own right with standalone compositions.
It wouldn't surprise me if Mr Doodle had therefore already disavowed them.
Hi. How many copies of this particular piece have you seen on the market? I was there to photograph the wall getting cut into sections. Is it so far fetched that a few sections are in my possession? Only the bottom right piece was signed, obviously. Bid accordingly.
Would it be correct to assume that you (or one of your colleagues) have already reached out to Mr Doodle about these chopped‑up pieces?
Perhaps hoping he might officially recognise them in their newly diminished state, and even authenticate each of them as separate works of art created by him?
If so, this would be relevant information of importance to any potential buyer โ and my guess would be that the artist either:
(a) declined to authenticate; or
(b) didn't even bother to reply.
Sorry to be blunt, but I can't see the value in these at all. Easily copied/replicated which make any provenance (including photos) virtually meaningless. Unless doodle himself authenticates them they are scribbles on plasterboard and nothing more.I would consider Mr Doodle to be largely irrelevant as an artist. That said, his marketing skills are excellent. He certainly created a very media‑friendly and unthreatening, kooky identity for himself. In the process, he has also become somewhat of a pop‑culture and art‑market (as opposed to artistic) phenomenon. Who knows how long his commercial success will last? Style tends to distract or blind. And, at least in the short term, it can often be more seductive than substance. In this respect, I would draw a parallel with Mr Brainwash. The latter is another character who succeeded in capturing the imagination of (in my view) an undiscerning critical mass of collectors โ one that was also happy to buy easily‑digestible, sappy art. In both cases, the public focus arguably remains more on the likeable cartoonish personas of the artists, than on the formulaic, derivative nature of their actual output as artists. __________ The issues with this sale are nevertheless of interest to me. They're comparable to the ones raised when a speculator bought the Faile Tower at Fa ile's 2010 Bedtime Stories show in New Y ork, broke it up, and began selling the component parts separately. *stylewars makes a compelling point about the need for authentication by Mr Doodle. However, the easily‑copied nature of this work would only be of secondary concern if I were looking to make a purchase, because I have no serious reason to doubt it was created by the hand of the artist. More problematic is the fact that, unless expressly and officially confirmed otherwise, this is not a Mr Doodle artwork and shouldn't be described or implied as such. Rather, it is but one of many small sections of what was originally a much larger, single artwork. What was originally the complete artwork in its entirety. But the overall whole was later cut into little pieces. And, presumably, this was done neither by Mr D oodle himself nor at his direction. Some random third party will have thus usurped the prerogative of the artist. By chopping up the art, they: (i) altered its size, layout and composition; and (ii) changed its entire meaning (provided we can assume Mr D oodle's art has meaning). __________ If I were the artist, I'd consider the original artwork to have been destroyed the very moment its integrity was compromised. The separated smaller pieces are not, and were never meant to be, "artworks" in their own right with standalone compositions. It wouldn't surprise me if Mr D oodle had therefore already disavowed them. Hi. How many copies of this particular piece have you seen on the market? I was there to photograph the wall getting cut into sections. Is it so far fetched that a few sections are in my possession? Only the bottom right piece was signed, obviously. Bid accordingly.Would it be correct to assume that you (or one of your colleagues) have already reached out to Mr D oodle about these chopped‑up pieces? Perhaps hoping he might officially recognise them in their newly diminished state, and even authenticate each of them as separate works of art created by him? If so, this would be relevant information of importance to any potential buyer โ and my guess would be that the artist either: (a) declined to authenticate; or (b) didn't even bother to reply.
|
|
met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,680
Likes โข 6,288
June 2009
|
: INVADER SCREAM, by met on Feb 25, 2024 21:38:06 GMT 1, Note the width of the Lazarides Gallery blindstamp, from the far-left side of the 'L' to the far-right side of the 'S' โ versus the bottom-left of the Invaded Scream woodcut image by Invader.
Seven examples of authentic prints:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
Counterfeit print from the CharityStars eBay scam listing, where the fake blindstamp is around 20% wider than it should be.
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285705750595
Note the width of the La zarides Gallery blindstamp, from the far-left side of the 'L' to the far-right side of the 'S' โ versus the bottom-left of the Invaded Scream woodcut image by Invader. Seven examples of authentic prints: 1234567Counterfeit print from the CharityStars eB ay scam listing, where the fake blindstamp is around 20% wider than it should be. www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285705750595
|
|