hnkpnk
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,344
Likes โข 1,420
July 2011
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by hnkpnk on Feb 21, 2019 14:00:19 GMT 1, So an editioned Canvas, ie, Girl With Balloon edition of 25 spray painted by hand is not an original, i think many would disagree . Many would be wrong. Well, you know what I mean. Itโs hardly original if there are more than one, whatever the semantics. ... So, is an "original" a one-of-a-kind or is it an artwork handmade by the artist as opposed to a print?
So an editioned Canvas, ie, Girl With Balloon edition of 25 spray painted by hand is not an original, i think many would disagree . Many would be wrong. Well, you know what I mean. Itโs hardly original if there are more than one, whatever the semantics. ... So, is an "original" a one-of-a-kind or is it an artwork handmade by the artist as opposed to a print?
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Carl Cashman
Artist
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,775
Likes โข 3,147
August 2017
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Carl Cashman on Feb 21, 2019 14:34:38 GMT 1, Many would be wrong. Well, you know what I mean. Itโs hardly original if there are more than one, whatever the semantics. ... So, is an "original" a one-of-a-kind or is it an artwork handmade by the artist as opposed to a print? Semantics and context.. I'd go with sculptural edition.
Many would be wrong. Well, you know what I mean. Itโs hardly original if there are more than one, whatever the semantics. ... So, is an "original" a one-of-a-kind or is it an artwork handmade by the artist as opposed to a print? Semantics and context.. I'd go with sculptural edition.
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Wearology
Junior Member
Staff at FatFreeArt
Posts โข 3,580
Likes โข 4,502
April 2008
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Wearology on Feb 21, 2019 14:51:14 GMT 1, I have seen some galleries say "Editioned Original" which means thats its an original image but the image has been used in the same medium more than once. When I buy or sell art I always ask or put is it an edition 1/1 Unique if it is truly an original.
I have seen some galleries say "Editioned Original" which means thats its an original image but the image has been used in the same medium more than once. When I buy or sell art I always ask or put is it an edition 1/1 Unique if it is truly an original.
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Coach on Feb 21, 2019 16:00:56 GMT 1, I have seen some galleries say "Editioned Original" which means thats its an original image but the image has been used in the same medium more than once. ย When I buy or sell art I always ask or put is it an edition 1/1 Unique if it is truly an original. ย ย
Agreed. I take original to mean hand painted, as appose to printed. An original can then be part of an edition of originals, or unique. If the former, it should really be numbered.
I have seen some galleries say "Editioned Original" which means thats its an original image but the image has been used in the same medium more than once. ย When I buy or sell art I always ask or put is it an edition 1/1 Unique if it is truly an original. ย ย Agreed. I take original to mean hand painted, as appose to printed. An original can then be part of an edition of originals, or unique. If the former, it should really be numbered.
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lorraballs
New Member
Posts โข 214
Likes โข 198
September 2012
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by lorraballs on Feb 21, 2019 16:12:11 GMT 1, This will not flop. People keep saying it is not typical Banksy, and in a lot of ways it isn't, which in turn could actually help it, as it is so different. However, I would argue that in a lot of ways it is typical Banksy, as it was made to commentate on, and highlight the troubles and situation in the area, which Banksy does well (that could also hinder it, as many people will take the other side's view) The Grappling Hook is different in all aspects to a print like CWSB's. Firstly, it is quite a large sculpture, with a massive rope. You could easily see this hanging in a museum or institution somewhere - it really would command it own space somewhere like that - I would argue that a print would not have the same impact. Secondly, this will attract a completely different buyer to the usual crowd (although many traditional Banksy fans will also want it, if it goes cheap enough). The fact it is controversial in it appearance and meaning may also only enhance it's desirability (loads laughed at, and hated Tracey Emin's Bed or the toilet by Duchamp, but they are highly coveted in the art world). The fact that nothing significant has been released by Banksy for years will make it wanted also......... and then there is a little added bonus of the box! The typical householder will probably not bid as it is not easy to display in the normal home, or pretty for that matter. However, the people who can afford to buy this will not be the usual householder........ I wouldn't be surprised if an art investment company buys this, or an art institution......... The tricky thing is the fact it is first to come to auction. Will people try to get in first hoping the price will be lower, or will they hang on until the next one! One thing is for sure, there will be a few available this year.............. I find the inevitable comparison of โdifficultโ art to Fountain tiresome in the extreme, particularly when it is referred to as โtoiletโ. That very nomenclature demonstrates a poor grasp of art history and invalidates any further argument you might posit. Fountain changed everything. This will not.
This will not flop. People keep saying it is not typical Banksy, and in a lot of ways it isn't, which in turn could actually help it, as it is so different. However, I would argue that in a lot of ways it is typical Banksy, as it was made to commentate on, and highlight the troubles and situation in the area, which Banksy does well (that could also hinder it, as many people will take the other side's view) The Grappling Hook is different in all aspects to a print like CWSB's. Firstly, it is quite a large sculpture, with a massive rope. You could easily see this hanging in a museum or institution somewhere - it really would command it own space somewhere like that - I would argue that a print would not have the same impact. Secondly, this will attract a completely different buyer to the usual crowd (although many traditional Banksy fans will also want it, if it goes cheap enough). The fact it is controversial in it appearance and meaning may also only enhance it's desirability (loads laughed at, and hated Tracey Emin's Bed or the toilet by Duchamp, but they are highly coveted in the art world). The fact that nothing significant has been released by Banksy for years will make it wanted also......... and then there is a little added bonus of the box! The typical householder will probably not bid as it is not easy to display in the normal home, or pretty for that matter. However, the people who can afford to buy this will not be the usual householder........ I wouldn't be surprised if an art investment company buys this, or an art institution......... The tricky thing is the fact it is first to come to auction. Will people try to get in first hoping the price will be lower, or will they hang on until the next one! One thing is for sure, there will be a few available this year.............. I find the inevitable comparison of โdifficultโ art to Fountain tiresome in the extreme, particularly when it is referred to as โtoiletโ. That very nomenclature demonstrates a poor grasp of art history and invalidates any further argument you might posit. Fountain changed everything. This will not.
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Gunny
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,603
Likes โข 1,115
July 2012
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Gunny on Feb 21, 2019 21:25:46 GMT 1, This will not flop. People keep saying it is not typical Banksy, and in a lot of ways it isn't, which in turn could actually help it, as it is so different. However, I would argue that in a lot of ways it is typical Banksy, as it was made to commentate on, and highlight the troubles and situation in the area, which Banksy does well (that could also hinder it, as many people will take the other side's view) The Grappling Hook is different in all aspects to a print like CWSB's. Firstly, it is quite a large sculpture, with a massive rope. You could easily see this hanging in a museum or institution somewhere - it really would command it own space somewhere like that - I would argue that a print would not have the same impact. Secondly, this will attract a completely different buyer to the usual crowd (although many traditional Banksy fans will also want it, if it goes cheap enough). The fact it is controversial in it appearance and meaning may also only enhance it's desirability (loads laughed at, and hated Tracey Emin's Bed or the toilet by Duchamp, but they are highly coveted in the art world). The fact that nothing significant has been released by Banksy for years will make it wanted also......... and then there is a little added bonus of the box! The typical householder will probably not bid as it is not easy to display in the normal home, or pretty for that matter. However, the people who can afford to buy this will not be the usual householder........ I wouldn't be surprised if an art investment company buys this, or an art institution......... The tricky thing is the fact it is first to come to auction. Will people try to get in first hoping the price will be lower, or will they hang on until the next one! One thing is for sure, there will be a few available this year.............. I find the inevitable comparison of โdifficultโ art to Fountain tiresome in the extreme, particularly when it is referred to as โtoiletโ. That very nomenclature demonstrates a poor grasp of art history and invalidates any further argument you might posit. Fountain changed everything. This will not. It was and is a toilet, in it's 'truest' form. R. Mutt, what a name!
This will not flop. People keep saying it is not typical Banksy, and in a lot of ways it isn't, which in turn could actually help it, as it is so different. However, I would argue that in a lot of ways it is typical Banksy, as it was made to commentate on, and highlight the troubles and situation in the area, which Banksy does well (that could also hinder it, as many people will take the other side's view) The Grappling Hook is different in all aspects to a print like CWSB's. Firstly, it is quite a large sculpture, with a massive rope. You could easily see this hanging in a museum or institution somewhere - it really would command it own space somewhere like that - I would argue that a print would not have the same impact. Secondly, this will attract a completely different buyer to the usual crowd (although many traditional Banksy fans will also want it, if it goes cheap enough). The fact it is controversial in it appearance and meaning may also only enhance it's desirability (loads laughed at, and hated Tracey Emin's Bed or the toilet by Duchamp, but they are highly coveted in the art world). The fact that nothing significant has been released by Banksy for years will make it wanted also......... and then there is a little added bonus of the box! The typical householder will probably not bid as it is not easy to display in the normal home, or pretty for that matter. However, the people who can afford to buy this will not be the usual householder........ I wouldn't be surprised if an art investment company buys this, or an art institution......... The tricky thing is the fact it is first to come to auction. Will people try to get in first hoping the price will be lower, or will they hang on until the next one! One thing is for sure, there will be a few available this year.............. I find the inevitable comparison of โdifficultโ art to Fountain tiresome in the extreme, particularly when it is referred to as โtoiletโ. That very nomenclature demonstrates a poor grasp of art history and invalidates any further argument you might posit. Fountain changed everything. This will not. It was and is a toilet, in it's 'truest' form. R. Mutt, what a name!
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apprint
New Member
Posts โข 586
Likes โข 129
January 2012
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by apprint on Feb 21, 2019 21:28:53 GMT 1, This is one of the worse Banksy editions, Not sure if will sale for the reserve price
This is one of the worse Banksy editions, Not sure if will sale for the reserve price
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Poster Bob
Junior Member
Posts โข 5,869
Likes โข 5,480
September 2013
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Poster Bob on Feb 21, 2019 22:15:11 GMT 1, This is one of the worse Banksy editions, Not sure if will sale for the reserve price Don't quit your day job and become an art consultant.
This is one of the worse Banksy editions, Not sure if will sale for the reserve price Don't quit your day job and become an art consultant.
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Johnny Sarcasm on Feb 21, 2019 23:46:00 GMT 1, This is one of the worse Banksy editions, Not sure if will sale for the reserve price Don't quit your day job and become an art consultant.ย
Or a proofreader.
This is one of the worse Banksy editions, Not sure if will sale for the reserve price Don't quit your day job and become an art consultant.ย Or a proofreader.
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sl1973
New Member
Posts โข 14
Likes โข 9
February 2019
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by sl1973 on Feb 22, 2019 3:33:20 GMT 1, Really insightful, thank you so much for a nice and helpful reply (free from the traditional UAA sarcasm!). Will be interesting to see what happens with this sale, as you say for a Banksy and auction houses this piece is unprecedented and in uncharted territory. My guess is on this occasion it will go very high as the post war / contemporary art team at Bonhams have done a very good job on the presentation and marketing. Who knows how Phillips got to a 6-8k estimate since I also told them what the retail cost was!? Haha Just saying though, when folk on here are wondering why someone is selling in a Bonhams sale rather than say a Phillips sale - that given does have some very cool art - there perhaps is your reason. Some mildly clueless specialists. Yeah, fair enough, thanks for letting us know, explains a lot. 6-8k, quite embarrassing, was this over the phone, or did they see it? Who was it at Phillips? Sent them detailed pics by email. Don't want to throw any of the good folk at Phillips under the bus. It was just an oversight. They are obviously good at what they do although for originals, I believe Sotheby's and Bonham's often have the edge with prices.
Phillips certainly have the cooler work though.
One of the craziest Banksy price shifts was the submerged phone booth that gained over 500kgbp in 6 years (2008/2014) I believe.
The first to sell at a time like this (post shredding / few major pieces sold since) makes for this to be an exciting auction it seems....
Really insightful, thank you so much for a nice and helpful reply (free from the traditional UAA sarcasm!). Will be interesting to see what happens with this sale, as you say for a Banksy and auction houses this piece is unprecedented and in uncharted territory. My guess is on this occasion it will go very high as the post war / contemporary art team at Bonhams have done a very good job on the presentation and marketing. Who knows how Phillips got to a 6-8k estimate since I also told them what the retail cost was!? Haha Just saying though, when folk on here are wondering why someone is selling in a Bonhams sale rather than say a Phillips sale - that given does have some very cool art - there perhaps is your reason. Some mildly clueless specialists. Yeah, fair enough, thanks for letting us know, explains a lot. 6-8k, quite embarrassing, was this over the phone, or did they see it? Who was it at Phillips? Sent them detailed pics by email. Don't want to throw any of the good folk at Phillips under the bus. It was just an oversight. They are obviously good at what they do although for originals, I believe Sotheby's and Bonham's often have the edge with prices. Phillips certainly have the cooler work though. One of the craziest Banksy price shifts was the submerged phone booth that gained over 500kgbp in 6 years (2008/2014) I believe. The first to sell at a time like this (post shredding / few major pieces sold since) makes for this to be an exciting auction it seems....
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sl1973
New Member
Posts โข 14
Likes โข 9
February 2019
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by sl1973 on Feb 22, 2019 3:34:59 GMT 1, Don't quit your day job and become an art consultant. Or a proofreader. Just LOLLLLLL some of the comments on here are too funny.
Don't quit your day job and become an art consultant. Or a proofreader. Just LOLLLLLL some of the comments on here are too funny.
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Mirus Gallery
Art Gallery
New Member
Posts โข 193
Likes โข 284
March 2014
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Mirus Gallery on Feb 22, 2019 3:42:10 GMT 1, Here is a good read on the subject actually. I don't think these are bronzes but a good read nonetheless.
"Some individuals consider only the first bronze cast as the original and all other casts as reproductions. (For purposes of determining whether a work of art is an original and, therefore, eligible for duty-free import into the United States, US customs laws now recognize as โoriginalโ up to twelve castings, reproductions or replicas, in any medium and any scale, and whether made by the sculptor or by another artist, and regardless of whether the artist was alive at the time of their making.) No hierarchical value was placed upon the order of casting. Many argue that as long as a bronze or a print is made from the plaster, plate, or stone on which the artist worked, the resulting works are originals. By this definition of original we do not know whether a bronze or print was made in the artistโs lifetime. Posthumous castings taken from the artistโs plasters may be called originals by this definition. Whether bronze castings or prints, lifetime editions are preferred by scholars, collectors, curators, and critics. In both media, however, as seen in the work of Rodin and Goya, there are works that were never bronze cast or printed in the artistโs lifetime. For the most part, posthumous editions have achieved market and qualified critical acceptance. (Favorable judgment has not been unanimous, however.)
Although the term โoriginalโ may be important to the public and to some professionals, many artists and individuals who are knowledgeable about casting place little value or only relative importance on the term. The specific information about when, by whom, how many, and how well a cast was made, and whether or not it compares favorably with the artistโs best work is more important to sculptors and those in the position to acquire, advise on acquisition, or write about casting. One cannot say that all sculptors believe that plasters are more important in esthetic value than their bronzes."
www.collegeart.org/standards-and-guidelines/guidelines/sculpture
Here is a good read on the subject actually. I don't think these are bronzes but a good read nonetheless. "Some individuals consider only the first bronze cast as the original and all other casts as reproductions. (For purposes of determining whether a work of art is an original and, therefore, eligible for duty-free import into the United States, US customs laws now recognize as โoriginalโ up to twelve castings, reproductions or replicas, in any medium and any scale, and whether made by the sculptor or by another artist, and regardless of whether the artist was alive at the time of their making.) No hierarchical value was placed upon the order of casting. Many argue that as long as a bronze or a print is made from the plaster, plate, or stone on which the artist worked, the resulting works are originals. By this definition of original we do not know whether a bronze or print was made in the artistโs lifetime. Posthumous castings taken from the artistโs plasters may be called originals by this definition. Whether bronze castings or prints, lifetime editions are preferred by scholars, collectors, curators, and critics. In both media, however, as seen in the work of Rodin and Goya, there are works that were never bronze cast or printed in the artistโs lifetime. For the most part, posthumous editions have achieved market and qualified critical acceptance. (Favorable judgment has not been unanimous, however.) Although the term โoriginalโ may be important to the public and to some professionals, many artists and individuals who are knowledgeable about casting place little value or only relative importance on the term. The specific information about when, by whom, how many, and how well a cast was made, and whether or not it compares favorably with the artistโs best work is more important to sculptors and those in the position to acquire, advise on acquisition, or write about casting. One cannot say that all sculptors believe that plasters are more important in esthetic value than their bronzes." www.collegeart.org/standards-and-guidelines/guidelines/sculpture
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diarmid
New Member
Posts โข 830
Likes โข 215
October 2017
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by diarmid on Feb 22, 2019 9:18:33 GMT 1, This is one of the worse Banksy editions, Not sure if will sale for the reserve price Don't quit your day job and become an art consultant. his already a art consultant.....lol
This is one of the worse Banksy editions, Not sure if will sale for the reserve price Don't quit your day job and become an art consultant. his already a art consultant.....lol
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Deleted
Posts โข 0
Likes โข
January 1970
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 12:24:47 GMT 1, Yeah, fair enough, thanks for letting us know, explains a lot. 6-8k, quite embarrassing, was this over the phone, or did they see it? Who was it at Phillips? Sent them detailed pics by email. Don't want to throw any of the good folk at Phillips under the bus. It was just an oversight. They are obviously good at what they do although for originals, I believe Sotheby's and Bonham's often have the edge with prices. Phillips certainly have the cooler work though. One of the craziest Banksy price shifts was the submerged phone booth that gained over 500kgbp in 6 years (2008/2014) I believe. The first to sell at a time like this (post shredding / few major pieces sold since) makes for this to be an exciting auction it seems.... I think it's worth bearing in mind that estimates are...er...estimates. Just because Philips give an estimate of, say, 8K and Sothebys give an estimate of 50K that doesn't automatically mean Sothebys is the best place to sell it. On the day, it is perfectly possible that Philips would gain the same hammer price as if you sold it through Sothebys. Art sales are like roulette. You place your bets and you take your chance on the spin of the wheel.
Yeah, fair enough, thanks for letting us know, explains a lot. 6-8k, quite embarrassing, was this over the phone, or did they see it? Who was it at Phillips? Sent them detailed pics by email. Don't want to throw any of the good folk at Phillips under the bus. It was just an oversight. They are obviously good at what they do although for originals, I believe Sotheby's and Bonham's often have the edge with prices. Phillips certainly have the cooler work though. One of the craziest Banksy price shifts was the submerged phone booth that gained over 500kgbp in 6 years (2008/2014) I believe. The first to sell at a time like this (post shredding / few major pieces sold since) makes for this to be an exciting auction it seems.... I think it's worth bearing in mind that estimates are...er...estimates. Just because Philips give an estimate of, say, 8K and Sothebys give an estimate of 50K that doesn't automatically mean Sothebys is the best place to sell it. On the day, it is perfectly possible that Philips would gain the same hammer price as if you sold it through Sothebys. Art sales are like roulette. You place your bets and you take your chance on the spin of the wheel.
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Unica
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,060
Likes โข 1,222
November 2013
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Unica on Feb 22, 2019 14:02:39 GMT 1, I'd prefer a Lenin on skates
I'd prefer a Lenin on skates
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Deleted
Posts โข 0
Likes โข
January 1970
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 14:29:42 GMT 1, I'd prefer a Lenin on skates
What does it mean?
Why is Lenin on skates?
I'd prefer a Lenin on skates What does it mean? Why is Lenin on skates?
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Jalouse Rosemont on Feb 22, 2019 14:46:07 GMT 1, I'd prefer a Lenin on skates What does it mean? Why is Lenin on skates? Lenin has been embalmed since 1924. So he has been frozen in time.
I'd prefer a Lenin on skates What does it mean? Why is Lenin on skates? Lenin has been embalmed since 1924. So he has been frozen in time.
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moron
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,711
Likes โข 1,051
September 2017
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by moron on Feb 22, 2019 15:32:01 GMT 1, I must let the wife know about this, its my birthday 4 days later Its Bonhams, You'll get it for about ยฃ50 lol. or someone who works at Bonhams will get it for fifty quid, alledgedly
I must let the wife know about this, its my birthday 4 days later Its Bonhams, You'll get it for about ยฃ50 lol. or someone who works at Bonhams will get it for fifty quid, alledgedly
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moron
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,711
Likes โข 1,051
September 2017
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by moron on Feb 22, 2019 15:38:19 GMT 1, There are some nice lots in this sale.
The Hans Hartung flag original looks good for the money, compared with prices asked for some of todays urban artists.
The Alex Katz, looks good too for the money for an original.
The Banksy crucifix could appeal to some and put others off.
Depending on how they interpret it's meaning. Christians forced to live behind a wall in a ghetto by jews could put some off and appeal to others.
There are some nice lots in this sale. The Hans Hartung flag original looks good for the money, compared with prices asked for some of todays urban artists. The Alex Katz, looks good too for the money for an original. The Banksy crucifix could appeal to some and put others off. Depending on how they interpret it's meaning. Christians forced to live behind a wall in a ghetto by jews could put some off and appeal to others.
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Wearology
Junior Member
Staff at FatFreeArt
Posts โข 3,580
Likes โข 4,502
April 2008
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Wearology on Feb 22, 2019 15:46:20 GMT 1, There is a recent movement to have 3rd Parties insure the item up for sale where certain individuals / entities make money even if the item hits or does not hit its reserve. Remember in the end "The HOUSE Always Wins". 50% of all lots up for auction are already sold before the auction begins. That's $1,000,000,000 worth of Pejac Envelopes that were pre sold before the commoners get a chance to play in the big sand box.
Auction house guarantees: friend or foe? Auction house and third party guarantees are a hot topic. At the 2015 Autumn sales in New York, Bloomberg reported that $1 billion - approximately half - of the $2 billion total value of lots were already sold before the "paddles are even raised". At the same time, Sotheby's confirmed that they had entered into an arrangement with the Estate of A. Alfred Taubman, its former chairman, to sell art from his collection, which was estimated to be worth in excess of $500 million. The arrangement provided that "Sothebyโs agreed to provide an auction guarantee for the collection at approximately that level". An auction house guarantee is an agreement by which the seller agrees to consign their work or collection to an auction house. The auction house agrees to guarantee to the seller that, whatever the outcome of the auction, the seller will receive a minimum sale price for the work or collection. How do they work in practice? The exact way in which a guarantee will operate will depend on the terms and conditions that have been negotiated between the auction house and the seller in advance of the sale. However, the usual potential outcomes of an auction house guarantee are as follows: The lot fails to sell at all: the auction house becomes the owner of the lot and pays the seller the full guarantee amount. The lot sells for less than the guarantee amount: the winning bidder becomes the owner of the lot, and the auction house pays the seller the hammer price plus the difference between the hammer price and the guarantee amount. The lot sells for more than the guarantee amount: the winning bidder becomes the owner of the lot and the auction house receives a proportion of the excess of the guarantee amount from the seller. Does the auction house take on all of this risk itself? In giving guarantees auction houses are taking a financial risk. This risk could be substantial, especially if the auction house is guaranteeing a number of high value works in the same period. In the autumn of 2008 Sotheby's reportedly lost $52 million in one season, all from guarantees. It has been reported that the Taubman guarantee resulted in a loss for Sotheby's and the auction house had to take possession of $33m of unsold artworks last year. Whilst auction houses can take on the entire risk themselves, they can also choose to share the risk with a third party and that is where matters become more complicated. Typically, this works by the third party agreeing, for a fee, to place an irrevocable written bid for an undisclosed amount on the lot before the auction (known as a third party guarantee). The amount of the bid can be up to or exceeding the guarantee amount. As a result, the third party guarantor takes on all or part of the risk of the lot not being sold. For example, if an auction house gave a minimum price guarantee to the seller of ยฃ100 million for an artwork, but a third party guarantor places an irrevocable written bid for, say, ยฃ80 million, the auction house's risk is reduced by that sum. Third party guarantors may then also participate in the auction themselves and choose to bid on the lot over and above their irrevocable written bid. Why do auction houses offer guarantees? There are three primary reasons: profits, certainty and securing works for auction. If a lot sells for more than the guarantee amount, this can provide a good source of profits for the auction house. The guarantee provides certainty that the item will "sell" and therefore commission will be received. If an auction house offers a seller a guarantee as an incentive, they may secure the consignment of works that would otherwise have gone to their rival. If you are a buyer, how do you know if an item is subject to a guarantee? Lots which are subject to a guarantee are marked in the catalogue with a symbol and the symbol key in the auction house's conditions of sale provides an explanation. The auctioneer may also disclose at the start of a sale that some works will be sold with guarantees. However, the amount of the guarantee is not disclosed. Seller advantages Certainty: One of the biggest risks at auction is that an item will fail to sell. This can have a significant impact on the reputation of the item, as some would then consider it "burnt" in respect of the market. A seller may have to wait years before feeling confident enough to offer the item to the market again. A guarantee eliminates this risk, as a seller will have the certainty that their item will be sold. Using the auction process to obtain a minimum price: Normally in an auction if a work fails to reach its reserve price, the work goes unsold, and the seller receives no money. A guarantee eliminates this outcome for works that risk not hitting a reserve. Getting the best of both worlds: In the above circumstance, not only has a seller used the auction process to guarantee a minimum price, but they also have the benefit of the chance the item will exceed expectations and sell for an amount in excess of that at auction. Better promotion of the work?: According to a New York Times article (7 January 2015) critics suggest that an auction house may put more effort into marketing an item in which it has an increased financial interest. However, this should not be the case, as legally the arrangement should not change the duty that the auction house owes to their client, the seller. Seller Disadvantages It could reduce your profits: Art Market Monitor (29 October 2015) suggests that in the current market sellers are "too smart" to sign up to guarantees. They raise the valid question: "If you know you have something really good โฆ why take the auction houseโs insurance policy at the cost of your own profits?". It could reduce the price made at auction: Guarantee prices are not disclosed but they are often close to the pre-sale low estimate. Naturally the guarantor will always want to set the guarantee price as low as possible to reduce their risk. As a consequence, the auction estimate may also be set lower. The fact an auction house has estimated an item's value at a lower amount could have the knock-on effect of reducing the amount that buyers are willing to bid to auction. It could deter bidding: a potential buyer will be aware that another buyer has already put his hat in the ring in respect of an item and will have done so at a potentially discounted price. This may dissuade a potential buyer from bidding as they know this is an item that has already been spotted and therefore there is less chance of obtaining the item at a 'bargain' price. It could sell for less than would be received in the private market: The most important question for a seller to ask is 'if it is necessary for me to sign up to an auction house guarantee, should I really be selling at auction?' The very fact that such guarantees exist is an indicator of the risk of selling at auction. Are guarantees ethical? Auction house guarantees are legal but they remain a controversial topic as some consider that they serve to distort the market and inflate prices. It is noted in the auction house catalogue that a lot is subject to a minimum price guarantee, but the guarantee amount is not made public and the guarantor knows the amount. Therefore, arguably they have information that puts them in a better position than their rival bidders. Normally, the reserve price is not disclosed to anyone else. This arguably threatens the idea that those participating in the auction process are doing so on a level playing field. There have also been concerns raised over the fact that due to the existence of guarantees and risk-sharing the published price of an item sold at auction may not be the actual price paid. It has been suggested, that collectors, agents and dealers may attempt to maintain high market values for an artist that they have a financial interest in, by acting as a guarantor and putting in a guaranteed bid. If the winning bid is higher than the guaranteed price, then the guarantor receives their fee and a share of the profits above the guarantee amount. Of course there is a risk that the guarantor may end up with the work if they place the highest bid. However, assuming they can afford it, they have both added to their collection of the artist's work, supported the market of the artist in whose value they hold a stake, and paid a 'discount' price as their fee has been deducted. The terms of the guarantee are negotiable and in light of the effect it can have on the sums that a seller may end up receiving as a result of the guarantee, legal advice should be sought. This article first appeared in the RICS Journal January 2017. Speak to our art law team to find out more about auction law.
There is a recent movement to have 3rd Parties insure the item up for sale where certain individuals / entities make money even if the item hits or does not hit its reserve. Remember in the end "The HOUSE Always Wins". 50% of all lots up for auction are already sold before the auction begins. That's $1,000,000,000 worth of Pejac Envelopes that were pre sold before the commoners get a chance to play in the big sand box.
Auction house guarantees: friend or foe? Auction house and third party guarantees are a hot topic. At the 2015 Autumn sales in New York, Bloomberg reported that $1 billion - approximately half - of the $2 billion total value of lots were already sold before the "paddles are even raised". At the same time, Sotheby's confirmed that they had entered into an arrangement with the Estate of A. Alfred Taubman, its former chairman, to sell art from his collection, which was estimated to be worth in excess of $500 million. The arrangement provided that "Sothebyโs agreed to provide an auction guarantee for the collection at approximately that level". An auction house guarantee is an agreement by which the seller agrees to consign their work or collection to an auction house. The auction house agrees to guarantee to the seller that, whatever the outcome of the auction, the seller will receive a minimum sale price for the work or collection. How do they work in practice? The exact way in which a guarantee will operate will depend on the terms and conditions that have been negotiated between the auction house and the seller in advance of the sale. However, the usual potential outcomes of an auction house guarantee are as follows: The lot fails to sell at all: the auction house becomes the owner of the lot and pays the seller the full guarantee amount. The lot sells for less than the guarantee amount: the winning bidder becomes the owner of the lot, and the auction house pays the seller the hammer price plus the difference between the hammer price and the guarantee amount. The lot sells for more than the guarantee amount: the winning bidder becomes the owner of the lot and the auction house receives a proportion of the excess of the guarantee amount from the seller. Does the auction house take on all of this risk itself? In giving guarantees auction houses are taking a financial risk. This risk could be substantial, especially if the auction house is guaranteeing a number of high value works in the same period. In the autumn of 2008 Sotheby's reportedly lost $52 million in one season, all from guarantees. It has been reported that the Taubman guarantee resulted in a loss for Sotheby's and the auction house had to take possession of $33m of unsold artworks last year. Whilst auction houses can take on the entire risk themselves, they can also choose to share the risk with a third party and that is where matters become more complicated. Typically, this works by the third party agreeing, for a fee, to place an irrevocable written bid for an undisclosed amount on the lot before the auction (known as a third party guarantee). The amount of the bid can be up to or exceeding the guarantee amount. As a result, the third party guarantor takes on all or part of the risk of the lot not being sold. For example, if an auction house gave a minimum price guarantee to the seller of ยฃ100 million for an artwork, but a third party guarantor places an irrevocable written bid for, say, ยฃ80 million, the auction house's risk is reduced by that sum. Third party guarantors may then also participate in the auction themselves and choose to bid on the lot over and above their irrevocable written bid. Why do auction houses offer guarantees? There are three primary reasons: profits, certainty and securing works for auction. If a lot sells for more than the guarantee amount, this can provide a good source of profits for the auction house. The guarantee provides certainty that the item will "sell" and therefore commission will be received. If an auction house offers a seller a guarantee as an incentive, they may secure the consignment of works that would otherwise have gone to their rival. If you are a buyer, how do you know if an item is subject to a guarantee? Lots which are subject to a guarantee are marked in the catalogue with a symbol and the symbol key in the auction house's conditions of sale provides an explanation. The auctioneer may also disclose at the start of a sale that some works will be sold with guarantees. However, the amount of the guarantee is not disclosed. Seller advantages Certainty: One of the biggest risks at auction is that an item will fail to sell. This can have a significant impact on the reputation of the item, as some would then consider it "burnt" in respect of the market. A seller may have to wait years before feeling confident enough to offer the item to the market again. A guarantee eliminates this risk, as a seller will have the certainty that their item will be sold. Using the auction process to obtain a minimum price: Normally in an auction if a work fails to reach its reserve price, the work goes unsold, and the seller receives no money. A guarantee eliminates this outcome for works that risk not hitting a reserve. Getting the best of both worlds: In the above circumstance, not only has a seller used the auction process to guarantee a minimum price, but they also have the benefit of the chance the item will exceed expectations and sell for an amount in excess of that at auction. Better promotion of the work?: According to a New York Times article (7 January 2015) critics suggest that an auction house may put more effort into marketing an item in which it has an increased financial interest. However, this should not be the case, as legally the arrangement should not change the duty that the auction house owes to their client, the seller. Seller Disadvantages It could reduce your profits: Art Market Monitor (29 October 2015) suggests that in the current market sellers are "too smart" to sign up to guarantees. They raise the valid question: "If you know you have something really good โฆ why take the auction houseโs insurance policy at the cost of your own profits?". It could reduce the price made at auction: Guarantee prices are not disclosed but they are often close to the pre-sale low estimate. Naturally the guarantor will always want to set the guarantee price as low as possible to reduce their risk. As a consequence, the auction estimate may also be set lower. The fact an auction house has estimated an item's value at a lower amount could have the knock-on effect of reducing the amount that buyers are willing to bid to auction. It could deter bidding: a potential buyer will be aware that another buyer has already put his hat in the ring in respect of an item and will have done so at a potentially discounted price. This may dissuade a potential buyer from bidding as they know this is an item that has already been spotted and therefore there is less chance of obtaining the item at a 'bargain' price. It could sell for less than would be received in the private market: The most important question for a seller to ask is 'if it is necessary for me to sign up to an auction house guarantee, should I really be selling at auction?' The very fact that such guarantees exist is an indicator of the risk of selling at auction. Are guarantees ethical? Auction house guarantees are legal but they remain a controversial topic as some consider that they serve to distort the market and inflate prices. It is noted in the auction house catalogue that a lot is subject to a minimum price guarantee, but the guarantee amount is not made public and the guarantor knows the amount. Therefore, arguably they have information that puts them in a better position than their rival bidders. Normally, the reserve price is not disclosed to anyone else. This arguably threatens the idea that those participating in the auction process are doing so on a level playing field. There have also been concerns raised over the fact that due to the existence of guarantees and risk-sharing the published price of an item sold at auction may not be the actual price paid. It has been suggested, that collectors, agents and dealers may attempt to maintain high market values for an artist that they have a financial interest in, by acting as a guarantor and putting in a guaranteed bid. If the winning bid is higher than the guaranteed price, then the guarantor receives their fee and a share of the profits above the guarantee amount. Of course there is a risk that the guarantor may end up with the work if they place the highest bid. However, assuming they can afford it, they have both added to their collection of the artist's work, supported the market of the artist in whose value they hold a stake, and paid a 'discount' price as their fee has been deducted. The terms of the guarantee are negotiable and in light of the effect it can have on the sums that a seller may end up receiving as a result of the guarantee, legal advice should be sought. This article first appeared in the RICS Journal January 2017. Speak to our art law team to find out more about auction law.
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moron
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,711
Likes โข 1,051
September 2017
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by moron on Feb 22, 2019 15:55:12 GMT 1, Auction house guarantee. "Caveat Emptor"
Most auction houses insert a disclaimer in their catalogues.
Auction house guarantee. "Caveat Emptor"
Most auction houses insert a disclaimer in their catalogues.
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irl1
Full Member
Posts โข 9,274
Likes โข 9,381
December 2017
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by irl1 on Feb 22, 2019 15:56:16 GMT 1, What does it mean? Why is Lenin on skates? Lenin has been embalmed since 1924. So he has been frozen in time. I have seen him in Red Square a few times.
For a man that's 149 years old he looks mighty fresh
What does it mean? Why is Lenin on skates? Lenin has been embalmed since 1924. So he has been frozen in time. I have seen him in Red Square a few times. For a man that's 149 years old he looks mighty fresh
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moron
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,711
Likes โข 1,051
September 2017
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by moron on Feb 22, 2019 16:05:35 GMT 1, Lenin has been embalmed since 1924. So he has been frozen in time. I have seen him in Red Square a few times. For a man that's 149 years old he looks mighty fresh He did well for being a man who was Charles Manson insane and a murderer.
Lenin has been embalmed since 1924. So he has been frozen in time. I have seen him in Red Square a few times. For a man that's 149 years old he looks mighty fresh He did well for being a man who was Charles Manson insane and a murderer.
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lorraballs
New Member
Posts โข 214
Likes โข 198
September 2012
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by lorraballs on Feb 22, 2019 18:27:23 GMT 1, I find the inevitable comparison of โdifficultโ art to Fountain tiresome in the extreme, particularly when it is referred to as โtoiletโ. That very nomenclature demonstrates a poor grasp of art history and invalidates any further argument you might posit. Fountain changed everything. This will not. It was and is a toilet, in it's 'truest' form. R. Mutt, what a name! No, it isnโt. No more than Moore and Gormley are simply metal or The Story of Cold, Dark Matter is a shed.
I find the inevitable comparison of โdifficultโ art to Fountain tiresome in the extreme, particularly when it is referred to as โtoiletโ. That very nomenclature demonstrates a poor grasp of art history and invalidates any further argument you might posit. Fountain changed everything. This will not. It was and is a toilet, in it's 'truest' form. R. Mutt, what a name! No, it isnโt. No more than Moore and Gormley are simply metal or The Story of Cold, Dark Matter is a shed.
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jkal
New Member
Posts โข 3
Likes โข 0
February 2019
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by jkal on Feb 23, 2019 22:22:37 GMT 1, I heard a rumor via a very reliable artist friend that has connects to PC that this Bonhams Grappling Hook was listed via someone within Banksy's circle and something is going to happen at the auction.
Anyone else hear something like this? Thinking of making the trip over to London to attend the sale as i'd love to see it go down if it's true.
I heard a rumor via a very reliable artist friend that has connects to PC that this Bonhams Grappling Hook was listed via someone within Banksy's circle and something is going to happen at the auction.
Anyone else hear something like this? Thinking of making the trip over to London to attend the sale as i'd love to see it go down if it's true.
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Zero Hero 2
New Member
Posts โข 203
Likes โข 149
November 2017
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Zero Hero 2 on Feb 23, 2019 23:33:10 GMT 1, I heard a rumor via a very reliable artist friend that has connects to PC that this Bonhams Grappling Hook was listed via someone within Banksy's circle and something is going to happen at the auction. Anyone else hear something like this? Thinking of making the trip over to London to attend the sale as i'd love to see it go down if it's true.
Banksy isnt really the guy to make the same thing twice...
I heard a rumor via a very reliable artist friend that has connects to PC that this Bonhams Grappling Hook was listed via someone within Banksy's circle and something is going to happen at the auction. Anyone else hear something like this? Thinking of making the trip over to London to attend the sale as i'd love to see it go down if it's true. Banksy isnt really the guy to make the same thing twice...
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19818914
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,337
Likes โข 1,029
October 2018
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by 19818914 on Feb 24, 2019 8:45:18 GMT 1, I heard a rumor via a very reliable artist friend that has connects to PC that this Bonhams Grappling Hook was listed via someone within Banksy's circle and something is going to happen at the auction. Anyone else hear something like this? Thinking of making the trip over to London to attend the sale as i'd love to see it go down if it's true. Banksy isnt really the guy to make the same thing twice...
Unless itโs better than the first time. But it seems like hype talk for a good sale.
I heard a rumor via a very reliable artist friend that has connects to PC that this Bonhams Grappling Hook was listed via someone within Banksy's circle and something is going to happen at the auction. Anyone else hear something like this? Thinking of making the trip over to London to attend the sale as i'd love to see it go down if it's true. Banksy isnt really the guy to make the same thing twice... Unless itโs better than the first time. But it seems like hype talk for a good sale.
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jkal
New Member
Posts โข 3
Likes โข 0
February 2019
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by jkal on Feb 24, 2019 14:55:06 GMT 1, I heard a rumor via a very reliable artist friend that has connects to PC that this Bonhams Grappling Hook was listed via someone within Banksy's circle and something is going to happen at the auction. Anyone else hear something like this? Thinking of making the trip over to London to attend the sale as i'd love to see it go down if it's true. Banksy isnt really the guy to make the same thing twice... I thought the same thing about another intervention, very unlikely IMO. I guess not unlikely that many people who bought this piece were VIP's connected to the PC inner circle.
I heard a rumor via a very reliable artist friend that has connects to PC that this Bonhams Grappling Hook was listed via someone within Banksy's circle and something is going to happen at the auction. Anyone else hear something like this? Thinking of making the trip over to London to attend the sale as i'd love to see it go down if it's true. Banksy isnt really the guy to make the same thing twice... I thought the same thing about another intervention, very unlikely IMO. I guess not unlikely that many people who bought this piece were VIP's connected to the PC inner circle.
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Deleted
Posts โข 0
Likes โข
January 1970
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Deleted on Feb 24, 2019 16:11:48 GMT 1, What kind of event can happen during the sale of a grappling hook? It can't exactly shred itself or suddenly burst in to flames.
What kind of event can happen during the sale of a grappling hook? It can't exactly shred itself or suddenly burst in to flames.
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Villain Dillon on Feb 24, 2019 16:34:27 GMT 1, I have professionally worked with Bonhams many many times. I would never put anything up for auction with them as I've seen their storage and handling facilities and in my eyes are not up to par. Weird that this is being sold through them as I'm sure other avenues hold a better clientele and grouping for this piece.
I have professionally worked with Bonhams many many times. I would never put anything up for auction with them as I've seen their storage and handling facilities and in my eyes are not up to par. Weird that this is being sold through them as I'm sure other avenues hold a better clientele and grouping for this piece.
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