kuni
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,153
Likes โข 1,818
February 2018
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by kuni on Mar 7, 2019 14:36:17 GMT 1, It does tell us SOMETHING : that none of us pundits / Banksy lovers here did make a single bid above ยฃ68K !!! How many of us Banksy lovers have 70k + fees to spend? It seems like there are a fair number of folks on this forum with that kind of disposable income. Or at least a fair number that hold themselves out as having that kind of loot.
It does tell us SOMETHING : that none of us pundits / Banksy lovers here did make a single bid above ยฃ68K !!! How many of us Banksy lovers have 70k + fees to spend? It seems like there are a fair number of folks on this forum with that kind of disposable income. Or at least a fair number that hold themselves out as having that kind of loot.
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irl1
Full Member
Posts โข 9,274
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December 2017
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by irl1 on Mar 7, 2019 14:39:08 GMT 1, Perhaps I'm the only one but I find this piece really ugly. There is no way I would want that thing on display in my house. But having said that, I think it's probably worth 70K. If I had a huge bank balance I would probably buy it and simply store it in the spare bedroom for a decade and then sell it on. I'm glad you don't have the spare cash for it, this should be hanging at your front door where everyone can see it
Perhaps I'm the only one but I find this piece really ugly. There is no way I would want that thing on display in my house. But having said that, I think it's probably worth 70K. If I had a huge bank balance I would probably buy it and simply store it in the spare bedroom for a decade and then sell it on. I'm glad you don't have the spare cash for it, this should be hanging at your front door where everyone can see it
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by The Italian One on Mar 7, 2019 14:39:40 GMT 1, It does tell us SOMETHING : that none of us pundits / Banksy lovers here did make a single bid above ยฃ68K !!! How many of us Banksy lovers have 70k + fees to spend? not me.. but if i had that budget i would be all over it at that price!
It does tell us SOMETHING : that none of us pundits / Banksy lovers here did make a single bid above ยฃ68K !!! How many of us Banksy lovers have 70k + fees to spend? not me.. but if i had that budget i would be all over it at that price!
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irl1
Full Member
Posts โข 9,274
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December 2017
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by irl1 on Mar 7, 2019 14:43:09 GMT 1, I went to the auction, did not end up bidding as the BP made it too high for us. This was simply the wrong audience, Bonhams have way too much of a conservative scene of collectors. This in time will do a lot better at one of the other edgier auction houses. I was wrong though I expected this to fly - but as many have said, wrong auction, wrong audience. I'm always surprised when people say "wrong auction house". In this day and age, art collectors monitor all the major auction houses. Do you care if the item you want is being sold by Sothebys or Phillips or Bonhams? I certainly don't. Why should I? If only it worked that way there would never ever be an unsold lot. There are auction houses who ring their clients to let them know when they have something to their taste.
I'm sorry to let you know a lot of clients don't bother to check what's coming up in auctions
I went to the auction, did not end up bidding as the BP made it too high for us. This was simply the wrong audience, Bonhams have way too much of a conservative scene of collectors. This in time will do a lot better at one of the other edgier auction houses. I was wrong though I expected this to fly - but as many have said, wrong auction, wrong audience. I'm always surprised when people say "wrong auction house". In this day and age, art collectors monitor all the major auction houses. Do you care if the item you want is being sold by Sothebys or Phillips or Bonhams? I certainly don't. Why should I? If only it worked that way there would never ever be an unsold lot. There are auction houses who ring their clients to let them know when they have something to their taste. I'm sorry to let you know a lot of clients don't bother to check what's coming up in auctions
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Fast Eddie
New Member
Posts โข 706
Likes โข 845
November 2018
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Fast Eddie on Mar 7, 2019 14:44:57 GMT 1, Please buy it. This thing deserves a market, if anything for the product safety disclaimer that tells you not to use the hook for actually climbing walls.
Please buy it. This thing deserves a market, if anything for the product safety disclaimer that tells you not to use the hook for actually climbing walls.
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Deleted
Posts โข 0
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January 1970
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 17:20:17 GMT 1, Perhaps I'm the only one but I find this piece really ugly. There is no way I would want that thing on display in my house. But having said that, I think it's probably worth 70K. If I had a huge bank balance I would probably buy it and simply store it in the spare bedroom for a decade and then sell it on. I'm glad you don't have the spare cash for it, this should be hanging at your front door where everyone can see it At least it should keep away vampires. Or is it zombies? One can never be too careful.
Perhaps I'm the only one but I find this piece really ugly. There is no way I would want that thing on display in my house. But having said that, I think it's probably worth 70K. If I had a huge bank balance I would probably buy it and simply store it in the spare bedroom for a decade and then sell it on. I'm glad you don't have the spare cash for it, this should be hanging at your front door where everyone can see it At least it should keep away vampires. Or is it zombies? One can never be too careful.
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Amber Halo
New Member
Posts โข 554
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April 2013
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Amber Halo on Mar 7, 2019 18:06:51 GMT 1, I am taking a punt that the owner of this is a member of the forum. If you are the owner, please get in touch, I would like to buy this - discretion assured. Thank you. Just for the record owner, this member thought it should go for ยฃ250k. So thereโs your starting point
โCocaine is a helluva drug.โ Rick James
I am taking a punt that the owner of this is a member of the forum. If you are the owner, please get in touch, I would like to buy this - discretion assured. Thank you. Just for the record owner, this member thought it should go for ยฃ250k. So thereโs your starting point โCocaine is a helluva drug.โ Rick James
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met
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,780
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June 2009
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by met on Mar 7, 2019 18:37:05 GMT 1, So an editioned Canvas, ie, Girl With Balloon edition of 25 spray painted by hand is not an original, i think many would disagree . Many would be wrong. Well, you know what I mean. Itโs hardly original if there are more than one, whatever the semantics. I think this is a nice curiosity. An aberration from his usual oeuvre. Having said that, Dismaland featured many โsculpturesโ, and his Guantanamo/Disneyland stunt, well, it depends whether bonuses have been paid. It could go either way. I wouldnโt thank you for it.
Many would be wrong. Well, you know what I mean. Itโs hardly original if there are more than one, whatever the semantics. ... So, is an "original" a one-of-a-kind or is it an artwork handmade by the artist as opposed to a print?
I have seen some galleries say "Editioned Original" which means thats its an original image but the image has been used in the same medium more than once. When I buy or sell art I always ask or put is it an edition 1/1 Unique if it is truly an original. Agreed. I take original to mean hand painted, as appose to printed. An original can then be part of an edition of originals, or unique. If the former, it should really be numbered.
There follows a 2014 post by me regarding a shift in terminology over time. I first became aware of it with the Banksy market โ when stencil-sprayed multiples started being described by some resellers as "originals".
At source, I think each of these works had been referred to more honestly and accurately as simply "a painting" or "a canvas" that was part of an edition.
Based on your description above, the "More money than sense" evaluation seems overly harsh to me. Editioned works are by definition unoriginal. That woman's position is consistent with how the art world generally considers originals. It was with Ban ksy's stencil-based, editioned canvases (and only a few years ago, not necessarily when released) that I first noticed some sellers attempting to alter the meaning of "original". Others, especially new collectors, followed suit without question. The term was thus broadened and arguably corrupted in the context of Ban ksy, no longer strictly referring to one-of-a-kind pieces. Instead of the distinguishing factor being uniqueness, as it is in the wider art market, what constitutes an original with the Ban ksy market is now determined by medium. And so, for example, any one of 25 identical Ban ksy paintings is an original if it's a hand-sprayed stencil โ whether on canvas, board, paper, or other surface. The silly result (at least to my mind) is that an editioned work, a multiple and one of many, can simultaneously be deemed "original". This shift is market-driven. Those with vested financial interests care less about terminology. They're happy for definitions to change, to become less strict, provided they also benefit. That's the case with private collectors, gallerists, other dealers, and auction houses looking or potentially looking to sell. From a business perspective this makes complete sense. A painting is easier to offload, it's sexier, and the price it can command is higher when marketed as an "original" rather than simply a "multiple". Referring to editioned work as originals has since become more common, though it's still largely confined to the str eet art / ur ban art ghetto-niche market.โ Property developers and estate agents behave in a similar manner. They'll try their best to rebrand areas to make them more attractive to buyers. For the Londoners here, remember when London Fields was called West Hackney, or when South Clapham was just known as Streatham?
Original post here from the thread, BANKSY The Unauthorised Retrospective.
So an editioned Canvas, ie, Girl With Balloon edition of 25 spray painted by hand is not an original, i think many would disagree . Many would be wrong. Well, you know what I mean. Itโs hardly original if there are more than one, whatever the semantics. I think this is a nice curiosity. An aberration from his usual oeuvre. Having said that, Dismaland featured many โsculpturesโ, and his Guantanamo/Disneyland stunt, well, it depends whether bonuses have been paid. It could go either way. I wouldnโt thank you for it. Many would be wrong. Well, you know what I mean. Itโs hardly original if there are more than one, whatever the semantics. ... So, is an "original" a one-of-a-kind or is it an artwork handmade by the artist as opposed to a print? I have seen some galleries say "Editioned Original" which means thats its an original image but the image has been used in the same medium more than once. When I buy or sell art I always ask or put is it an edition 1/1 Unique if it is truly an original. Agreed. I take original to mean hand painted, as appose to printed. An original can then be part of an edition of originals, or unique. If the former, it should really be numbered. There follows a 2014 post by me regarding a shift in terminology over time. I first became aware of it with the Ban ksy market โ when stencil-sprayed multiples started being described by some resellers as "originals". At source, I think each of these works had been referred to more honestly and accurately as simply "a painting" or "a canvas" that was part of an edition. Based on your description above, the "More money than sense" evaluation seems overly harsh to me. Editioned works are by definition unoriginal. That woman's position is consistent with how the art world generally considers originals. It was with Ban ksy's stencil-based, editioned canvases (and only a few years ago, not necessarily when released) that I first noticed some sellers attempting to alter the meaning of "original". Others, especially new collectors, followed suit without question. The term was thus broadened and arguably corrupted in the context of Ban ksy, no longer strictly referring to one-of-a-kind pieces. Instead of the distinguishing factor being uniqueness, as it is in the wider art market, what constitutes an original with the Ban ksy market is now determined by medium. And so, for example, any one of 25 identical Ban ksy paintings is an original if it's a hand-sprayed stencil โ whether on canvas, board, paper, or other surface. The silly result (at least to my mind) is that an editioned work, a multiple and one of many, can simultaneously be deemed "original". This shift is market-driven. Those with vested financial interests care less about terminology. They're happy for definitions to change, to become less strict, provided they also benefit. That's the case with private collectors, gallerists, other dealers, and auction houses looking or potentially looking to sell. From a business perspective this makes complete sense. A painting is easier to offload, it's sexier, and the price it can command is higher when marketed as an "original" rather than simply a "multiple". Referring to editioned work as originals has since become more common, though it's still largely confined to the str eet art / ur ban art ghetto-niche market.โ Property developers and estate agents behave in a similar manner. They'll try their best to rebrand areas to make them more attractive to buyers. For the Londoners here, remember when London Fields was called West Hackney, or when South Clapham was just known as Streatham? Original post here from the thread, BANKSY The Unauthorised Retrospective.
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moron
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,711
Likes โข 1,051
September 2017
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by moron on Mar 7, 2019 19:54:12 GMT 1, Not wrong saleroom definately the wrong sale.
Most of the artworks in this sale were created in the 60's 70's 80's and have nothing in common with urban or street or political art.
Not wrong saleroom definately the wrong sale.
Most of the artworks in this sale were created in the 60's 70's 80's and have nothing in common with urban or street or political art.
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irl1
Full Member
Posts โข 9,274
Likes โข 9,381
December 2017
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by irl1 on Mar 7, 2019 21:44:19 GMT 1, I'm glad you don't have the spare cash for it, this should be hanging at your front door where everyone can see it At least it should keep away vampires. Or is it zombies? One can never be too careful. Its a pity you can't use it to keep Brexit away
I'm glad you don't have the spare cash for it, this should be hanging at your front door where everyone can see it At least it should keep away vampires. Or is it zombies? One can never be too careful. Its a pity you can't use it to keep Brexit away
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moron
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,711
Likes โข 1,051
September 2017
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by moron on Mar 8, 2019 18:05:13 GMT 1, At least it should keep away vampires. Or is it zombies? One can never be too careful. Its a pity you can't use it to keep Brexit away An interesting concept.
No doubt someone will make something similar.
How about a crucifix made into an anchor with a heavy chain attached.
At least it should keep away vampires. Or is it zombies? One can never be too careful. Its a pity you can't use it to keep Brexit away An interesting concept. No doubt someone will make something similar. How about a crucifix made into an anchor with a heavy chain attached.
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viz
New Member
Posts โข 264
Likes โข 225
September 2017
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by viz on Mar 8, 2019 22:16:15 GMT 1, Many would be wrong. Well, you know what I mean. Itโs hardly original if there are more than one, whatever the semantics. I think this is a nice curiosity. An aberration from his usual oeuvre. Having said that, Dismaland featured many โsculpturesโ, and his Guantanamo/Disneyland stunt, well, it depends whether bonuses have been paid. It could go either way. I wouldnโt thank you for it. So, is an "original" a one-of-a-kind or is it an artwork handmade by the artist as opposed to a print? Agreed. I take original to mean hand painted, as appose to printed. An original can then be part of an edition of originals, or unique. If the former, it should really be numbered. There follows a 2014 post by me regarding a shift in terminology over time. I first became aware of it with the Ban ksy market โ when stencil-sprayed multiples started being described by some resellers as "originals". At source, I think each of these works had been referred to more honestly and accurately as simply "a painting" or "a canvas" that was part of an edition. Based on your description above, the "More money than sense" evaluation seems overly harsh to me. Editioned works are by definition unoriginal. That woman's position is consistent with how the art world generally considers originals. It was with Ban ksy's stencil-based, editioned canvases (and only a few years ago, not necessarily when released) that I first noticed some sellers attempting to alter the meaning of "original". Others, especially new collectors, followed suit without question. The term was thus broadened and arguably corrupted in the context of Ban ksy, no longer strictly referring to one-of-a-kind pieces. Instead of the distinguishing factor being uniqueness, as it is in the wider art market, what constitutes an original with the Ban ksy market is now determined by medium. And so, for example, any one of 25 identical Ban ksy paintings is an original if it's a hand-sprayed stencil โ whether on canvas, board, paper, or other surface. The silly result (at least to my mind) is that an editioned work, a multiple and one of many, can simultaneously be deemed "original". This shift is market-driven. Those with vested financial interests care less about terminology. They're happy for definitions to change, to become less strict, provided they also benefit. That's the case with private collectors, gallerists, other dealers, and auction houses looking or potentially looking to sell. From a business perspective this makes complete sense. A painting is easier to offload, it's sexier, and the price it can command is higher when marketed as an "original" rather than simply a "multiple". Referring to editioned work as originals has since become more common, though it's still largely confined to the str eet art / ur ban art ghetto-niche market.โ Property developers and estate agents behave in a similar manner. They'll try their best to rebrand areas to make them more attractive to buyers. For the Londoners here, remember when London Fields was called West Hackney, or when South Clapham was just known as Streatham? Original post here from the thread, BANKSY The Unauthorised Retrospective.
In my opinion it's quite straightforward, even if for commercial purposes many use words changing their meaning.
There are words that refer to the medium (painting, photograph, sculpture, print, etc.), words that refer to the edition number (if the medium allows for multiple copies), and then there is original vs reproduction that refer to the artwork having been created as it is by the author or being a copy of another artwork (even if legit and authorized by the artist himself).
A woodcut in one copy would not be a print, just because there is just one copy? or a bronze sculpture would not be an original work of art just because there are several? No, it's not.
In the same way numbering and signing, that came into fashion just in recent times, are commercial ways to indicate the authenticity (well...) and the edition of a multiple, they have nothing to do with the artwork being an orginal work of art or being not.
Many would be wrong. Well, you know what I mean. Itโs hardly original if there are more than one, whatever the semantics. I think this is a nice curiosity. An aberration from his usual oeuvre. Having said that, Dismaland featured many โsculpturesโ, and his Guantanamo/Disneyland stunt, well, it depends whether bonuses have been paid. It could go either way. I wouldnโt thank you for it. So, is an "original" a one-of-a-kind or is it an artwork handmade by the artist as opposed to a print? Agreed. I take original to mean hand painted, as appose to printed. An original can then be part of an edition of originals, or unique. If the former, it should really be numbered. There follows a 2014 post by me regarding a shift in terminology over time. I first became aware of it with the Ban ksy market โ when stencil-sprayed multiples started being described by some resellers as "originals". At source, I think each of these works had been referred to more honestly and accurately as simply "a painting" or "a canvas" that was part of an edition. Based on your description above, the "More money than sense" evaluation seems overly harsh to me. Editioned works are by definition unoriginal. That woman's position is consistent with how the art world generally considers originals. It was with Ban ksy's stencil-based, editioned canvases (and only a few years ago, not necessarily when released) that I first noticed some sellers attempting to alter the meaning of "original". Others, especially new collectors, followed suit without question. The term was thus broadened and arguably corrupted in the context of Ban ksy, no longer strictly referring to one-of-a-kind pieces. Instead of the distinguishing factor being uniqueness, as it is in the wider art market, what constitutes an original with the Ban ksy market is now determined by medium. And so, for example, any one of 25 identical Ban ksy paintings is an original if it's a hand-sprayed stencil โ whether on canvas, board, paper, or other surface. The silly result (at least to my mind) is that an editioned work, a multiple and one of many, can simultaneously be deemed "original". This shift is market-driven. Those with vested financial interests care less about terminology. They're happy for definitions to change, to become less strict, provided they also benefit. That's the case with private collectors, gallerists, other dealers, and auction houses looking or potentially looking to sell. From a business perspective this makes complete sense. A painting is easier to offload, it's sexier, and the price it can command is higher when marketed as an "original" rather than simply a "multiple". Referring to editioned work as originals has since become more common, though it's still largely confined to the str eet art / ur ban art ghetto-niche market.โ Property developers and estate agents behave in a similar manner. They'll try their best to rebrand areas to make them more attractive to buyers. For the Londoners here, remember when London Fields was called West Hackney, or when South Clapham was just known as Streatham? Original post here from the thread, BANKSY The Unauthorised Retrospective. In my opinion it's quite straightforward, even if for commercial purposes many use words changing their meaning. There are words that refer to the medium (painting, photograph, sculpture, print, etc.), words that refer to the edition number (if the medium allows for multiple copies), and then there is original vs reproduction that refer to the artwork having been created as it is by the author or being a copy of another artwork (even if legit and authorized by the artist himself). A woodcut in one copy would not be a print, just because there is just one copy? or a bronze sculpture would not be an original work of art just because there are several? No, it's not. In the same way numbering and signing, that came into fashion just in recent times, are commercial ways to indicate the authenticity (well...) and the edition of a multiple, they have nothing to do with the artwork being an orginal work of art or being not.
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19818914
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,337
Likes โข 1,029
October 2018
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by 19818914 on Mar 8, 2019 22:25:35 GMT 1, Contacted Bonham's specialist today to ask about the Hook. Was told there are quite a few post sales offers in and to have a chance I would have to offer 'comfortably' over the low estimate to have any chance! Shame, thought it could have been got for less than low estimate.
Would you still have to pay the buyers premium on top?
Contacted Bonham's specialist today to ask about the Hook. Was told there are quite a few post sales offers in and to have a chance I would have to offer 'comfortably' over the low estimate to have any chance! Shame, thought it could have been got for less than low estimate. Would you still have to pay the buyers premium on top?
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.dappy
Full Member
Posts โข 9,841
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December 2010
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by .dappy on Mar 8, 2019 22:47:56 GMT 1, Contacted Bonham's specialist today to ask about the Hook. Was told there are quite a few post sales offers in and to have a chance I would have to offer 'comfortably' over the low estimate to have any chance! Shame, thought it could have been got for less than low estimate. ... so in effect they are now holding a blind auction off line ... with the starting bid higher that the auction bid price ... brilliant ...
Contacted Bonham's specialist today to ask about the Hook. Was told there are quite a few post sales offers in and to have a chance I would have to offer 'comfortably' over the low estimate to have any chance! Shame, thought it could have been got for less than low estimate. ... so in effect they are now holding a blind auction off line ... with the starting bid higher that the auction bid price ... brilliant ...
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Harveyn
Forum Guardian
Full Member
Posts โข 7,726
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July 2007
Staff Member
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Harveyn on Mar 8, 2019 23:22:48 GMT 1, This dog will have his day.
I remember offering $100k plus fees for a Condo canvas at Sotheby's that failed to reach that low estimate. It was turned down. Several years later the canvas sold for several multiples and 5 years later its probably now worth $650k+
Not every piece that does not sell at auction is burnt, not even short term.
Bowies Basquiat sold in 1989 for $350k, Bowie bought it in 1995 for $132k and in 2016 it was sold for over $9m.
The seller and Bonhams are quite right not to sell this work cheap. IMO.
This dog will have his day.
I remember offering $100k plus fees for a Condo canvas at Sotheby's that failed to reach that low estimate. It was turned down. Several years later the canvas sold for several multiples and 5 years later its probably now worth $650k+
Not every piece that does not sell at auction is burnt, not even short term.
Bowies Basquiat sold in 1989 for $350k, Bowie bought it in 1995 for $132k and in 2016 it was sold for over $9m.
The seller and Bonhams are quite right not to sell this work cheap. IMO.
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lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,290
November 2009
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by lee3 on Mar 9, 2019 0:33:39 GMT 1, Contacted Bonham's specialist today to ask about the Hook. Was told there are quite a few post sales offers in and to have a chance I would have to offer 'comfortably' over the low estimate to have any chance! Shame, thought it could have been got for less than low estimate. Would you still have to pay the buyers premium on top? Yes, the house still collects the same buyers premium. It's typical for works to have significant post sale interest in high profile names. Picture dealers galore thinking they can pick off something inexpensive and offer in the gallery bringing welcome attention and hopes for a profit.
Reading Dappy's comment after yours, I, for one, would not call this a blind auction. The house continues to solicit bids and they will select the highest depending on many circumstances. Unlike blind auctions where you submit one bid, bidders may continue to raise offers. Sometimes they'll sell it to the first person who bids the reserve (plus premium), other times they'll work it for a couple weeks but this is generally with input from the consignor so not blind per se as once it gets above the reserve then all after sale bidders know that it will be sold.
As an example, I recall about a decade ago in the depths of the last correction a tiny red keep it real monkey on canvas passing at one of the houses with a 12-15k gbp estimate (form memory). I enquired as did a friend and at least another, unknown (to us) bidder. Once the friend and i put one and one together that we were bidding against each other, I bowed out. He kept at it and eventually lost to the other bidder at ~25k gbp from memory which was considerably more than the high estimate from the actual sale. Point being, I feel comfortable taking the house (if it's christie's, sotheby's, phillips or bonahms) at their word on a post sale transaction as they want the sale as does the consignor. It often behooves someone interested to just cut to the chase and ask at what price can the house sell it? Frankly, I'd be surprised if either of the banksy's that passed this week are returned to the consignors as post sale transactions on unsold lots are the norm these days.
Contacted Bonham's specialist today to ask about the Hook. Was told there are quite a few post sales offers in and to have a chance I would have to offer 'comfortably' over the low estimate to have any chance! Shame, thought it could have been got for less than low estimate. Would you still have to pay the buyers premium on top? Yes, the house still collects the same buyers premium. It's typical for works to have significant post sale interest in high profile names. Picture dealers galore thinking they can pick off something inexpensive and offer in the gallery bringing welcome attention and hopes for a profit. Reading Dappy's comment after yours, I, for one, would not call this a blind auction. The house continues to solicit bids and they will select the highest depending on many circumstances. Unlike blind auctions where you submit one bid, bidders may continue to raise offers. Sometimes they'll sell it to the first person who bids the reserve (plus premium), other times they'll work it for a couple weeks but this is generally with input from the consignor so not blind per se as once it gets above the reserve then all after sale bidders know that it will be sold. As an example, I recall about a decade ago in the depths of the last correction a tiny red keep it real monkey on canvas passing at one of the houses with a 12-15k gbp estimate (form memory). I enquired as did a friend and at least another, unknown (to us) bidder. Once the friend and i put one and one together that we were bidding against each other, I bowed out. He kept at it and eventually lost to the other bidder at ~25k gbp from memory which was considerably more than the high estimate from the actual sale. Point being, I feel comfortable taking the house (if it's christie's, sotheby's, phillips or bonahms) at their word on a post sale transaction as they want the sale as does the consignor. It often behooves someone interested to just cut to the chase and ask at what price can the house sell it? Frankly, I'd be surprised if either of the banksy's that passed this week are returned to the consignors as post sale transactions on unsold lots are the norm these days.
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blerd
Junior Member
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November 2016
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by blerd on Mar 9, 2019 1:04:31 GMT 1, Would you still have to pay the buyers premium on top? Yes, the house still collects the same buyers premium. It's typical for works to have significant post sale interest in high profile names. Picture dealers galore thinking they can pick off something inexpensive and offer in the gallery bringing welcome attention and hopes for a profit. Reading Dappy's comment after yours, I, for one, would not call this a blind auction. The house continues to solicit bids and they will select the highest depending on many circumstances. Unlike blind auctions where you submit one bid, bidders may continue to raise offers. Sometimes they'll sell it to the first person who bids the reserve (plus premium), other times they'll work it for a couple weeks but this is generally with input from the consignor so not blind per se as once it gets above the reserve then all after sale bidders know that it will be sold. As an example, I recall about a decade ago in the depths of the last correction a tiny red keep it real monkey on canvas passing at one of the houses with a 12-15k gbp estimate (form memory). I enquired as did a friend and at least another, unknown (to us) bidder. Once the friend and i put one and one together that we were bidding against each other, I bowed out. He kept at it and eventually lost to the other bidder at ~25k gbp from memory which was considerably more than the high estimate from the actual sale. Point being, I feel comfortable taking the house (if it's christie's, sotheby's, phillips or bonahms) at their word on a post sale transaction as they want the sale as does the consignor. It often behooves someone interested to just cut to the chase and ask at what price can the house sell it? Frankly, I'd be surprised if either of the banksy's that passed this week are returned to the consignors as post sale transactions on unsold lots are the norm these days. Thanks Lee, that was an interesting read. Its a shame the post sale isn't recorded for future reference.
Would you still have to pay the buyers premium on top? Yes, the house still collects the same buyers premium. It's typical for works to have significant post sale interest in high profile names. Picture dealers galore thinking they can pick off something inexpensive and offer in the gallery bringing welcome attention and hopes for a profit. Reading Dappy's comment after yours, I, for one, would not call this a blind auction. The house continues to solicit bids and they will select the highest depending on many circumstances. Unlike blind auctions where you submit one bid, bidders may continue to raise offers. Sometimes they'll sell it to the first person who bids the reserve (plus premium), other times they'll work it for a couple weeks but this is generally with input from the consignor so not blind per se as once it gets above the reserve then all after sale bidders know that it will be sold. As an example, I recall about a decade ago in the depths of the last correction a tiny red keep it real monkey on canvas passing at one of the houses with a 12-15k gbp estimate (form memory). I enquired as did a friend and at least another, unknown (to us) bidder. Once the friend and i put one and one together that we were bidding against each other, I bowed out. He kept at it and eventually lost to the other bidder at ~25k gbp from memory which was considerably more than the high estimate from the actual sale. Point being, I feel comfortable taking the house (if it's christie's, sotheby's, phillips or bonahms) at their word on a post sale transaction as they want the sale as does the consignor. It often behooves someone interested to just cut to the chase and ask at what price can the house sell it? Frankly, I'd be surprised if either of the banksy's that passed this week are returned to the consignors as post sale transactions on unsold lots are the norm these days. Thanks Lee, that was an interesting read. Its a shame the post sale isn't recorded for future reference.
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19818914
Junior Member
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October 2018
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by 19818914 on Mar 9, 2019 1:05:11 GMT 1, Would you still have to pay the buyers premium on top? Yes, the house still collects the same buyers premium. It's typical for works to have significant post sale interest in high profile names. Picture dealers galore thinking they can pick off something inexpensive and offer in the gallery bringing welcome attention and hopes for a profit. Reading Dappy's comment after yours, I, for one, would not call this a blind auction. The house continues to solicit bids and they will select the highest depending on many circumstances. Unlike blind auctions where you submit one bid, bidders may continue to raise offers. Sometimes they'll sell it to the first person who bids the reserve (plus premium), other times they'll work it for a couple weeks but this is generally with input from the consignor so not blind per se as once it gets above the reserve then all after sale bidders know that it will be sold. As an example, I recall about a decade ago in the depths of the last correction a tiny red keep it real monkey on canvas passing at one of the houses with a 12-15k gbp estimate (form memory). I enquired as did a friend and at least another, unknown (to us) bidder. Once the friend and i put one and one together that we were bidding against each other, I bowed out. He kept at it and eventually lost to the other bidder at ~25k gbp from memory which was considerably more than the high estimate from the actual sale. Point being, I feel comfortable taking the house (if it's christie's, sotheby's, phillips or bonahms) at their word on a post sale transaction as they want the sale as does the consignor. It often behooves someone interested to just cut to the chase and ask at what price can the house sell it? Frankly, I'd be surprised if either of the banksy's that passed this week are returned to the consignors as post sale transactions on unsold lots are the norm these days.
Thank you for explaining that. Now if anyone who owns this cross figurine has a high resolution photographs to share, could you please dm me? I appreciate it.
Would you still have to pay the buyers premium on top? Yes, the house still collects the same buyers premium. It's typical for works to have significant post sale interest in high profile names. Picture dealers galore thinking they can pick off something inexpensive and offer in the gallery bringing welcome attention and hopes for a profit. Reading Dappy's comment after yours, I, for one, would not call this a blind auction. The house continues to solicit bids and they will select the highest depending on many circumstances. Unlike blind auctions where you submit one bid, bidders may continue to raise offers. Sometimes they'll sell it to the first person who bids the reserve (plus premium), other times they'll work it for a couple weeks but this is generally with input from the consignor so not blind per se as once it gets above the reserve then all after sale bidders know that it will be sold. As an example, I recall about a decade ago in the depths of the last correction a tiny red keep it real monkey on canvas passing at one of the houses with a 12-15k gbp estimate (form memory). I enquired as did a friend and at least another, unknown (to us) bidder. Once the friend and i put one and one together that we were bidding against each other, I bowed out. He kept at it and eventually lost to the other bidder at ~25k gbp from memory which was considerably more than the high estimate from the actual sale. Point being, I feel comfortable taking the house (if it's christie's, sotheby's, phillips or bonahms) at their word on a post sale transaction as they want the sale as does the consignor. It often behooves someone interested to just cut to the chase and ask at what price can the house sell it? Frankly, I'd be surprised if either of the banksy's that passed this week are returned to the consignors as post sale transactions on unsold lots are the norm these days. Thank you for explaining that. Now if anyone who owns this cross figurine has a high resolution photographs to share, could you please dm me? I appreciate it.
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blerd
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,350
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November 2016
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by blerd on Mar 9, 2019 1:07:25 GMT 1, This dog will have his day. I remember offering $100k plus fees for a Condo canvas at Sotheby's that failed to reach that low estimate. It was turned down. Several years later the canvas sold for several multiples and 5 years later its probably now worth $650k+ Not every piece that does not sell at auction is burnt, not even short term. Bowies Basquiat sold in 1989 for $350k, Bowie bought it in 1995 for $132k and in 2016 it was sold for over $9m. The seller and Bonhams are quite right not to sell this work cheap. IMO. Did you manage to get a Condo canvas elsewhere? Amazing Artist.
This dog will have his day. I remember offering $100k plus fees for a Condo canvas at Sotheby's that failed to reach that low estimate. It was turned down. Several years later the canvas sold for several multiples and 5 years later its probably now worth $650k+ Not every piece that does not sell at auction is burnt, not even short term. Bowies Basquiat sold in 1989 for $350k, Bowie bought it in 1995 for $132k and in 2016 it was sold for over $9m. The seller and Bonhams are quite right not to sell this work cheap. IMO. Did you manage to get a Condo canvas elsewhere? Amazing Artist.
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Arty Farty 15
New Member
Posts โข 683
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January 2018
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Arty Farty 15 on Mar 9, 2019 4:15:07 GMT 1, ADMIN PLS LOCK THIS THREAD ITS GETTING VERY PETTY AND VERY BORING.
ADMIN PLS LOCK THIS THREAD ITS GETTING VERY PETTY AND VERY BORING.
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 11:33:12 GMT 1, Contacted Bonham's specialist today to ask about the Hook. Was told there are quite a few post sales offers in and to have a chance I would have to offer 'comfortably' over the low estimate to have any chance! Shame, thought it could have been got for less than low estimate. So let me get this straight. Something fails to sell at considerably less than the low estimate but then the auction house expects someone to pay considerably more than the low estimate. How odd.
Contacted Bonham's specialist today to ask about the Hook. Was told there are quite a few post sales offers in and to have a chance I would have to offer 'comfortably' over the low estimate to have any chance! Shame, thought it could have been got for less than low estimate. So let me get this straight. Something fails to sell at considerably less than the low estimate but then the auction house expects someone to pay considerably more than the low estimate. How odd.
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Dunning Kruger on Mar 9, 2019 13:41:00 GMT 1, I am not surprised this didn't sell. As an artist, with the probable exception of the Bronze Rat, Banksy's art does not translate well in to sculptural form. To a serious collector, that Crucifix has several challenges to it, firstly the religious issue, not many collectors would want to have a Crucifix hanging on their wall. Secondly, the political message, it has no narrative to it to support it, therefore renders it weak, thirdly, what do you actually consider the more interesting work to display, the cross or the box, or as some have suggested, cut the box in to 4, therefore makes each component as weak as the other. To a seasoned collector, they will consider all these factors and make their choice whether to bid or not. I was offered one of these at the time of release, and for the reasons mentioned above, I turned it down.
You have to buy the art because you like it, and not because of the artist.
I am not surprised this didn't sell. As an artist, with the probable exception of the Bronze Rat, Banksy's art does not translate well in to sculptural form. To a serious collector, that Crucifix has several challenges to it, firstly the religious issue, not many collectors would want to have a Crucifix hanging on their wall. Secondly, the political message, it has no narrative to it to support it, therefore renders it weak, thirdly, what do you actually consider the more interesting work to display, the cross or the box, or as some have suggested, cut the box in to 4, therefore makes each component as weak as the other. To a seasoned collector, they will consider all these factors and make their choice whether to bid or not. I was offered one of these at the time of release, and for the reasons mentioned above, I turned it down.
You have to buy the art because you like it, and not because of the artist.
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abacus
New Member
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April 2014
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by abacus on Mar 9, 2019 16:26:10 GMT 1, Maybe... There were no true collector interest on the night. But lets say there were dealer interest. As a dealer you want to buy on the bid and sell on the offer. Hence, when no one bids in the room, there is no upside for you to do so, when you can potentially pick it up quietly at the reserve (bid side) in the after sale. If two (or more) dealers think like that, the actual clearing price in the after sale could be higher (as it sounds like was the case here).
There is also a reason, perversely, why a dealer might actually like this result. I imagine dealer inventories is in general low. Hence a registered no sale could scare some less seasoned holders of this edition to get out (privately) for only a small profit.
You obviously have to believe strongly in the (future of the) Banksy market for this to make sense.
Maybe... There were no true collector interest on the night. But lets say there were dealer interest. As a dealer you want to buy on the bid and sell on the offer. Hence, when no one bids in the room, there is no upside for you to do so, when you can potentially pick it up quietly at the reserve (bid side) in the after sale. If two (or more) dealers think like that, the actual clearing price in the after sale could be higher (as it sounds like was the case here).
There is also a reason, perversely, why a dealer might actually like this result. I imagine dealer inventories is in general low. Hence a registered no sale could scare some less seasoned holders of this edition to get out (privately) for only a small profit.
You obviously have to believe strongly in the (future of the) Banksy market for this to make sense.
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19818914
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,337
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October 2018
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by 19818914 on Mar 27, 2019 18:23:19 GMT 1, Damn good price. Just not the right timing for me.
Damn good price. Just not the right timing for me.
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Deleted on Mar 27, 2019 19:11:55 GMT 1, Showing as sold on their website. that must have been one of the post sale offers.... BANKSY (British, born 1975) Grappling Hook 2017 Sold for ยฃ 83,306 inc. premium
So seller
ยฃ83306 - 30% (buyers fees) -10% (sellers fees) less vat on the fees @ 20% = a cheque to the seller for............................. ยฃ87.50p
Showing as sold on their website. that must have been one of the post sale offers.... BANKSY (British, born 1975) Grappling Hook 2017 Sold for ยฃ 83,306 inc. premium So seller ยฃ83306 - 30% (buyers fees) -10% (sellers fees) less vat on the fees @ 20% = a cheque to the seller for............................. ยฃ87.50p
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Deleted on Mar 27, 2019 19:53:52 GMT 1, Showing as sold on their website. that must have been one of the post sale offers.... BANKSY (British, born 1975) Grappling Hook 2017 Sold for ยฃ 83,306 inc. premium So seller ยฃ83306 - 30% (buyers fees) -10% (sellers fees) less vat on the fees @ 20% = a cheque to the seller for............................. ยฃ87.50p You are not adding 30% plus 10% plus VAT, are you?
Sellers don't get charged the buyer's fees, do they?
Showing as sold on their website. that must have been one of the post sale offers.... BANKSY (British, born 1975) Grappling Hook 2017 Sold for ยฃ 83,306 inc. premium So seller ยฃ83306 - 30% (buyers fees) -10% (sellers fees) less vat on the fees @ 20% = a cheque to the seller for............................. ยฃ87.50p You are not adding 30% plus 10% plus VAT, are you? Sellers don't get charged the buyer's fees, do they?
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moron
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,711
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September 2017
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by moron on Mar 27, 2019 22:08:46 GMT 1, This dog will have his day. I remember offering $100k plus fees for a Condo canvas at Sotheby's that failed to reach that low estimate. It was turned down. Several years later the canvas sold for several multiples and 5 years later its probably now worth $650k+ Not every piece that does not sell at auction is burnt, not even short term. Bowies Basquiat sold in 1989 for $350k, Bowie bought it in 1995 for $132k and in 2016 it was sold for over $9m. The seller and Bonhams are quite right not to sell this work cheap. IMO. It means nothing. One could buy a Degas original painting for 22K in 1977.
Regarding prices. Provenance is everything.
This dog will have his day. I remember offering $100k plus fees for a Condo canvas at Sotheby's that failed to reach that low estimate. It was turned down. Several years later the canvas sold for several multiples and 5 years later its probably now worth $650k+ Not every piece that does not sell at auction is burnt, not even short term. Bowies Basquiat sold in 1989 for $350k, Bowie bought it in 1995 for $132k and in 2016 it was sold for over $9m. The seller and Bonhams are quite right not to sell this work cheap. IMO. It means nothing. One could buy a Degas original painting for 22K in 1977. Regarding prices. Provenance is everything.
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moron
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,711
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September 2017
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by moron on Mar 27, 2019 22:11:21 GMT 1, Contacted Bonham's specialist today to ask about the Hook. Was told there are quite a few post sales offers in and to have a chance I would have to offer 'comfortably' over the low estimate to have any chance! Shame, thought it could have been got for less than low estimate. So let me get this straight. Something fails to sell at considerably less than the low estimate but then the auction house expects someone to pay considerably more than the low estimate. How odd. In other words the auction house behaving more like a shop or a gallery than an auction. Quite a few auction houses have art that fails to sell because they set retail prices.
Contacted Bonham's specialist today to ask about the Hook. Was told there are quite a few post sales offers in and to have a chance I would have to offer 'comfortably' over the low estimate to have any chance! Shame, thought it could have been got for less than low estimate. So let me get this straight. Something fails to sell at considerably less than the low estimate but then the auction house expects someone to pay considerably more than the low estimate. How odd. In other words the auction house behaving more like a shop or a gallery than an auction. Quite a few auction houses have art that fails to sell because they set retail prices.
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moron
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,711
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September 2017
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by moron on Mar 27, 2019 22:13:27 GMT 1, That buyers premium is a racket. 25% regardless whether the art sells for 2.5K or 250K is money for old rope. The auction hose does not work a hundred times harder to sell something for 250K than it does for 2.5K.
Lets see if some forum mod deletes this.
That buyers premium is a racket. 25% regardless whether the art sells for 2.5K or 250K is money for old rope. The auction hose does not work a hundred times harder to sell something for 250K than it does for 2.5K.
Lets see if some forum mod deletes this.
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moron
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,711
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September 2017
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by moron on Mar 27, 2019 22:31:57 GMT 1, My calculation is this........... Sale price ยฃ64'000 +25% buyers premium ยฃ16'000 = ยฃ80'000. Vat of 20% on ยฃ16'000 = ยฃ3200 Total ยฃ83'200 = close enough and the seller pays tax on their profit. Or maybe not.
My calculation is this........... Sale price ยฃ64'000 +25% buyers premium ยฃ16'000 = ยฃ80'000. Vat of 20% on ยฃ16'000 = ยฃ3200 Total ยฃ83'200 = close enough and the seller pays tax on their profit. Or maybe not.
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