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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 21:06:57 GMT 1, Is this Skeelo's first print? And a collab with Martha and Banksy as well!
Skeelo is about to blow up!
Is this Skeelo's first print? And a collab with Martha and Banksy as well!
Skeelo is about to blow up!
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 21:12:11 GMT 1, The amount of absolute s**t punted on here is phenomenal. Yet people seem to be more offended by a photo documenting a great show by a top photographer of street art over the years. Exploiting the market by selling 75 prints for 120 euros each. Do me a favour.
Sums it up perfectly
The amount of absolute s**t punted on here is phenomenal. Yet people seem to be more offended by a photo documenting a great show by a top photographer of street art over the years. Exploiting the market by selling 75 prints for 120 euros each. Do me a favour. Sums it up perfectly |
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randomname
Junior Member
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by randomname on Mar 26, 2015 21:15:28 GMT 1, Tristan, on the other hand, got a far better image out of the shoot in my opinion. But he doesn't have the history that Martha has, so no one is lining up to spend a couple hundred dollars on a print. Call me crazy, but I'm more interested in the art than who created it.  Honestly I think that with "ghetto for life", with a young boy good dressed, with spray paint in hand and a Butler makes more sense the photo with a sofa and a man sitting on it instead of this Tarzan.The dude on the sofa complete the scene and seems to say "doesn't matter my social status now, I come from the ghetto and I'm still on these streets ... these Streets are my house (look at the sofa), i'm ghetto for life!" This makes sense to me...not Tarzan.
Banksy's mural is about gentrification. For me, putting a black kid on a couch in front of it isn't telling us anything we didn't already know. From a technical standpoint, the shot is static and uninteresting in my opinion.
If you're looking for meaning in Tristan's shot, I would suggest it represents South Bronx residents rising above the gentrification of their neighborhoods and claiming the streets for their own. I think his shot is much more dynamic and has a better sense of visual hierarchy. It's more visually appealing to me.
For what it's worth, I think this would have made for a much better image by far. It would have captured the true nature of BOTI. Something neither of the other two shots succeeded at.
Tristan, on the other hand, got a far better image out of the shoot in my opinion. But he doesn't have the history that Martha has, so no one is lining up to spend a couple hundred dollars on a print. Call me crazy, but I'm more interested in the art than who created it. Honestly I think that with "ghetto for life", with a young boy good dressed, with spray paint in hand and a Butler makes more sense the photo with a sofa and a man sitting on it instead of this Tarzan.The dude on the sofa complete the scene and seems to say "doesn't matter my social status now, I come from the ghetto and I'm still on these streets ... these Streets are my house (look at the sofa), i'm ghetto for life!" This makes sense to me...not Tarzan. Banksy's mural is about gentrification. For me, putting a black kid on a couch in front of it isn't telling us anything we didn't already know. From a technical standpoint, the shot is static and uninteresting in my opinion. If you're looking for meaning in Tristan's shot, I would suggest it represents South Bronx residents rising above the gentrification of their neighborhoods and claiming the streets for their own. I think his shot is much more dynamic and has a better sense of visual hierarchy. It's more visually appealing to me. For what it's worth, I think this would have made for a much better image by far. It would have captured the true nature of BOTI. Something neither of the other two shots succeeded at. |
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.dappy
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by .dappy on Mar 26, 2015 21:37:01 GMT 1, ... I was thinking of releasing this as a photographic print? ... or even as a stencil piece  ...
... I was thinking of releasing this as a photographic print? ... or even as a stencil piece ... |
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Petrusino
Junior Member
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November 2011
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by Petrusino on Mar 26, 2015 21:37:36 GMT 1, "If you're looking for meaning in Tristan's shot, I would suggest it represents South Bronx residents rising above the gentrification of their neighborhoods and claiming the streets for their own."
"If you're looking for meaning in Tristan's shot, I would suggest it represents South Bronx residents rising above the gentrification of their neighborhoods and claiming the streets for their own." I think you're climbing up the mirrors...I hope at least you're convincing yourself |
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randomname
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by randomname on Mar 26, 2015 21:54:38 GMT 1, "If you're looking for meaning in Tristan's shot, I would suggest it represents South Bronx residents rising above the gentrification of their neighborhoods and claiming the streets for their own." I think you're climbing up the mirrors...I hope at least you're convincing yourself
That's very kind of you to say. But I can assure you I lack both the technical skill and testicular volume to pull this off.
"If you're looking for meaning in Tristan's shot, I would suggest it represents South Bronx residents rising above the gentrification of their neighborhoods and claiming the streets for their own." I think you're climbing up the mirrors...I hope at least you're convincing yourself That's very kind of you to say. But I can assure you I lack both the technical skill and testicular volume to pull this off. |
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Petrusino
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by Petrusino on Mar 26, 2015 22:18:21 GMT 1, I think you're climbing up the mirrors...I hope at least you're convincing yourself That's very kind of you to say. But I can assure you I lack both the technical skill and testicular volume to pull this off.
I think you're climbing up the mirrors...I hope at least you're convincing yourself That's very kind of you to say. But I can assure you I lack both the technical skill and testicular volume to pull this off. I'm noticing. I just do not understand why you're rushing headlong into a challenge lost from the start: to belittle the work of the greatest photographer/documentarist of street art of all time. Which introduced street art, urban style, hip hop style to the whole world long before the coming of the Internet. every street art lover, street artist, should be happy about this release, about the shoot of this legend on the work of another legend, sold for a figure accessible to any collector, especially on the "BANKSY forum" but sometimes this forum is a strange place. |
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randomname
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June 2013
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by randomname on Mar 26, 2015 22:35:34 GMT 1, That's very kind of you to say. But I can assure you I lack both the technical skill and testicular volume to pull this off. I'm noticing. I just do not understand why you're rushing headlong into a challenge lost from the start: to belittle the work of the greatest photographer/documentarist of street art of all time. Which introduced street art, urban style, hip hop style to the whole world long before the coming of the Internet. every street art lover, street artist, should be happy about this release, about the shoot of this legend on the work of another legend, sold for a figure accessible to any collector, especially on the "BANKSY forum" but sometimes this forum is a strange place.
Your English is certainly better than my Italian, but it could still use a little work. I did not belittle the artist or her work. On the contrary, I've been very complimentary of her and her body of work as a whole.
I simply said I do not like this particular image and explained why. You can agree with my opinion or not. But pretending I said something completely different than what I stated is what we call a straw man argument. Or in Italian, paglia argomento uomo. At least that's what the google tells me.
That's very kind of you to say. But I can assure you I lack both the technical skill and testicular volume to pull this off. I'm noticing. I just do not understand why you're rushing headlong into a challenge lost from the start: to belittle the work of the greatest photographer/documentarist of street art of all time. Which introduced street art, urban style, hip hop style to the whole world long before the coming of the Internet. every street art lover, street artist, should be happy about this release, about the shoot of this legend on the work of another legend, sold for a figure accessible to any collector, especially on the "BANKSY forum" but sometimes this forum is a strange place. Your English is certainly better than my Italian, but it could still use a little work. I did not belittle the artist or her work. On the contrary, I've been very complimentary of her and her body of work as a whole. I simply said I do not like this particular image and explained why. You can agree with my opinion or not. But pretending I said something completely different than what I stated is what we call a straw man argument. Or in Italian, paglia argomento uomo. At least that's what the google tells me. |
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Black Apple Art
Art Gallery
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September 2013
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by Black Apple Art on Mar 26, 2015 22:48:43 GMT 1, That's very kind of you to say. But I can assure you I lack both the technical skill and testicular volume to pull this off. I'm noticing. I just do not understand why you're rushing headlong into a challenge lost from the start: to belittle the work of the greatest photographer/documentarist of street art of all time. Which introduced street art, urban style, hip hop style to the whole world long before the coming of the Internet. every street art lover, street artist, should be happy about this release, about the shoot of this legend on the work of another legend, sold for a figure accessible to any collector, especially on the "BANKSY forum" but sometimes this forum is a strange place.
That's very kind of you to say. But I can assure you I lack both the technical skill and testicular volume to pull this off. I'm noticing. I just do not understand why you're rushing headlong into a challenge lost from the start: to belittle the work of the greatest photographer/documentarist of street art of all time. Which introduced street art, urban style, hip hop style to the whole world long before the coming of the Internet. every street art lover, street artist, should be happy about this release, about the shoot of this legend on the work of another legend, sold for a figure accessible to any collector, especially on the "BANKSY forum" but sometimes this forum is a strange place. Pet I think you are taking most of this in the wrong way. Not liking a piece is quite different than "belittling" the artist. Seems for the most part most are saying they like or don't like it and explaining their line of thinking behind their view. |
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Petrusino
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November 2011
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by Petrusino on Mar 26, 2015 23:08:49 GMT 1, I'm noticing. I just do not understand why you're rushing headlong into a challenge lost from the start: to belittle the work of the greatest photographer/documentarist of street art of all time. Which introduced street art, urban style, hip hop style to the whole world long before the coming of the Internet. every street art lover, street artist, should be happy about this release, about the shoot of this legend on the work of another legend, sold for a figure accessible to any collector, especially on the "BANKSY forum" but sometimes this forum is a strange place. Pet I think you are taking most of this in the wrong way. Not liking a piece is quite different than "belittling" the artist. Seems for the most part most are saying they like or don't like it and explaining their line of thinking behind their view.
I'm noticing. I just do not understand why you're rushing headlong into a challenge lost from the start: to belittle the work of the greatest photographer/documentarist of street art of all time. Which introduced street art, urban style, hip hop style to the whole world long before the coming of the Internet. every street art lover, street artist, should be happy about this release, about the shoot of this legend on the work of another legend, sold for a figure accessible to any collector, especially on the "BANKSY forum" but sometimes this forum is a strange place. Pet I think you are taking most of this in the wrong way. Not liking a piece is quite different than "belittling" the artist. Seems for the most part most are saying they like or don't like it and explaining their line of thinking behind their view. maybe you're right, but when I do not like the release of a famous artist I prefer not write anything and change thread, showing respect for the artist which I admire, to buyers, and to the integrity of the forum. Especially if the artist is a big artist. Especially if the edition is sold. |
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Petrusino
Junior Member
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November 2011
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by Petrusino on Mar 26, 2015 23:09:49 GMT 1, I'm noticing. I just do not understand why you're rushing headlong into a challenge lost from the start: to belittle the work of the greatest photographer/documentarist of street art of all time. Which introduced street art, urban style, hip hop style to the whole world long before the coming of the Internet. every street art lover, street artist, should be happy about this release, about the shoot of this legend on the work of another legend, sold for a figure accessible to any collector, especially on the "BANKSY forum" but sometimes this forum is a strange place. Your English is certainly better than my Italian, but it could still use a little work. I did not belittle the artist or her work. On the contrary, I've been very complimentary of her and her body of work as a whole. I simply said I do not like this particular image and explained why. You can agree with my opinion or not. But pretending I said something completely different than what I stated is what we call a straw man argument. Or in Italian, paglia argomento uomo. At least that's what the google tells me.
I'm noticing. I just do not understand why you're rushing headlong into a challenge lost from the start: to belittle the work of the greatest photographer/documentarist of street art of all time. Which introduced street art, urban style, hip hop style to the whole world long before the coming of the Internet. every street art lover, street artist, should be happy about this release, about the shoot of this legend on the work of another legend, sold for a figure accessible to any collector, especially on the "BANKSY forum" but sometimes this forum is a strange place. Your English is certainly better than my Italian, but it could still use a little work. I did not belittle the artist or her work. On the contrary, I've been very complimentary of her and her body of work as a whole. I simply said I do not like this particular image and explained why. You can agree with my opinion or not. But pretending I said something completely different than what I stated is what we call a straw man argument. Or in Italian, paglia argomento uomo. At least that's what the google tells me. My english sucks. My street art knowledge is way better. I try to improve my english on an international forum, but someone should improve his street art knowledge on a street art forum.... and certainly you are not the one who can teach a hystorical photographer of international fame, called "kodak girl" how to shoot a picture |
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randomname
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by randomname on Mar 26, 2015 23:21:15 GMT 1, Your English is certainly better than my Italian, but it could still use a little work. I did not belittle the artist or her work. On the contrary, I've been very complimentary of her and her body of work as a whole. I simply said I do not like this particular image and explained why. You can agree with my opinion or not. But pretending I said something completely different than what I stated is what we call a straw man argument. Or in Italian, paglia argomento uomo. At least that's what the google tells me. My english sucks. My street art knowledge is way better. I try to improve my english on an international forum, but someone should improve his street art knowledge on a street art forum.... and certainly you are not the one who can teach a hystorical photographer of international fame, called "kodak girl" how to shoot a picture
If it makes you feel any better, your English skills are lightyears ahead of your logic and reasoning.
Every artist puts out a dud from time to time. Just look at U2 over the past 10-20 years. I couldn't tell them the first thing about writing a good song. But I know when they've failed to do so.
When you argue a piece of work is good based solely on what an artist has done before, you might be suffering from fanboyism. A term I don't particularly like, but is sometimes appropriate.
Your English is certainly better than my Italian, but it could still use a little work. I did not belittle the artist or her work. On the contrary, I've been very complimentary of her and her body of work as a whole. I simply said I do not like this particular image and explained why. You can agree with my opinion or not. But pretending I said something completely different than what I stated is what we call a straw man argument. Or in Italian, paglia argomento uomo. At least that's what the google tells me. My english sucks. My street art knowledge is way better. I try to improve my english on an international forum, but someone should improve his street art knowledge on a street art forum.... and certainly you are not the one who can teach a hystorical photographer of international fame, called "kodak girl" how to shoot a picture If it makes you feel any better, your English skills are lightyears ahead of your logic and reasoning. Every artist puts out a dud from time to time. Just look at U2 over the past 10-20 years. I couldn't tell them the first thing about writing a good song. But I know when they've failed to do so. When you argue a piece of work is good based solely on what an artist has done before, you might be suffering from fanboyism. A term I don't particularly like, but is sometimes appropriate. |
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Petrusino
Junior Member
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November 2011
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by Petrusino on Mar 26, 2015 23:33:12 GMT 1, My english sucks. My street art knowledge is way better. I try to improve my english on an international forum, but someone should improve his street art knowledge on a street art forum.... and certainly you are not the one who can teach a hystorical photographer of international fame, called "kodak girl" how to shoot a picture If it makes you feel any better, your English skills are lightyears ahead of your logic and reasoning. Every artist puts out a dud from time to time. Just look at U2 over the past 10-20 years. I couldn't tell them the first thing about writing a good song. But I know when they've failed to do so. When you argue a piece of work is good based solely on what an artist has done before, you might be suffering from fanboyism. A term I don't particularly like, but is sometimes appropriate.
My english sucks. My street art knowledge is way better. I try to improve my english on an international forum, but someone should improve his street art knowledge on a street art forum.... and certainly you are not the one who can teach a hystorical photographer of international fame, called "kodak girl" how to shoot a picture If it makes you feel any better, your English skills are lightyears ahead of your logic and reasoning. Every artist puts out a dud from time to time. Just look at U2 over the past 10-20 years. I couldn't tell them the first thing about writing a good song. But I know when they've failed to do so. When you argue a piece of work is good based solely on what an artist has done before, you might be suffering from fanboyism. A term I don't particularly like, but is sometimes appropriate. The point is, I love this photo, and I bought it. you do not like it and you have not bought it. We are on a thread made by a person who like this pic. Then, at this point of the thread, am I a fanboy or are you an hater ?? Think. I go to sleep. |
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randomname
Junior Member
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June 2013
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by randomname on Mar 26, 2015 23:54:42 GMT 1, If it makes you feel any better, your English skills are lightyears ahead of your logic and reasoning. Every artist puts out a dud from time to time. Just look at U2 over the past 10-20 years. I couldn't tell them the first thing about writing a good song. But I know when they've failed to do so. When you argue a piece of work is good based solely on what an artist has done before, you might be suffering from fanboyism. A term I don't particularly like, but is sometimes appropriate. The point is, I love this photo, and I bought it. you do not like it and you have not bought it. We are on a thread made by a person who like this pic. Then, at this point of the thread, am I a fanboy or are you an hater ?? Think. I go to sleep.
I provided a reasoned response when asked why I don't like this photo. I was then met with irrational, antagonistic posts attacking my opinion. That is fanboyism.
Personally, I'm not interested in reading only opinions that reaffirm my own. That too is a sign of fanboy behavior. This site is not only a great resource for being exposed to new art, it's equally as valuable for being exposed to different opinions. That's how you learn and grow. It's a shame some members aren't mature enough to take advantage of that.
I love Martha's work on the whole. Disliking one image out of countless others doesn't make someone a hater. But if you have an irrational need to discredit any opinion that contradicts your own, by all means call me a hater.
If it makes you feel any better, your English skills are lightyears ahead of your logic and reasoning. Every artist puts out a dud from time to time. Just look at U2 over the past 10-20 years. I couldn't tell them the first thing about writing a good song. But I know when they've failed to do so. When you argue a piece of work is good based solely on what an artist has done before, you might be suffering from fanboyism. A term I don't particularly like, but is sometimes appropriate. The point is, I love this photo, and I bought it. you do not like it and you have not bought it. We are on a thread made by a person who like this pic. Then, at this point of the thread, am I a fanboy or are you an hater ?? Think. I go to sleep. I provided a reasoned response when asked why I don't like this photo. I was then met with irrational, antagonistic posts attacking my opinion. That is fanboyism. Personally, I'm not interested in reading only opinions that reaffirm my own. That too is a sign of fanboy behavior. This site is not only a great resource for being exposed to new art, it's equally as valuable for being exposed to different opinions. That's how you learn and grow. It's a shame some members aren't mature enough to take advantage of that. I love Martha's work on the whole. Disliking one image out of countless others doesn't make someone a hater. But if you have an irrational need to discredit any opinion that contradicts your own, by all means call me a hater. |
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Hairbland
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November 2010
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by Hairbland on Mar 27, 2015 0:09:16 GMT 1, Personally, I don't think the photography adds any creativity to the piece. It just feels like a shameless money grab to me. I can see buying a print of one of her early photographs when few people treated graffiti as legitimate art. But this feels like she's trying to cash in on someone else's work and popularity.
I think her reputation is as one who documents the streets. From her Subway Art book in the 70's to her Street Play book in the 80's (of which I have a signed photo #1 of I think 150). Her history is as a photo journalist, documenting and thus providing historical reference.
Looking at her history helps understand where she fits in. And under those circumstances documenting something from the October harvest known as BOTI makes sense.
I can see a finished Haring in NYC any time I want. Photos of him at work document history.
Personally, I don't think the photography adds any creativity to the piece. It just feels like a shameless money grab to me. I can see buying a print of one of her early photographs when few people treated graffiti as legitimate art. But this feels like she's trying to cash in on someone else's work and popularity. I think her reputation is as one who documents the streets. From her Subway Art book in the 70's to her Street Play book in the 80's (of which I have a signed photo #1 of I think 150). Her history is as a photo journalist, documenting and thus providing historical reference. Looking at her history helps understand where she fits in. And under those circumstances documenting something from the October harvest known as BOTI makes sense. I can see a finished Haring in NYC any time I want. Photos of him at work document history. |
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by graffuturism on Mar 27, 2015 0:32:05 GMT 1, Fast forward to now. Banksy is not seen as urban decay. Quite the opposite. He is more representative of gentrification. The mural she shot has been seen by millions. Everyone who would be interested in seeing it already has seen it over a year ago. It's not presenting anything new or interesting the way the vast majority of her work has throughout her career. So with this argument you are stating because Banksy is not urban decay but a representative of gentrification its not as interesting as early work and maybe she should just do what she did decades ago. Not a good argument for progression or dealing with current events but its a valid argument I guess. I dont ge the argument that because it happened a year ago its not a relavant work especially in photography where photos usually make there way out way after the fact. But OK. If she had been more engaged with BOTI as it was happening, I think she could have generated much more interesting work. If she had shot the local "entrepreneurs" charging hipsters to see Banksy's beaver, that would have been amazing. Or if she had captured the property manager knocking that ragger on his ass, it would have said something powerful about the street art scene. I am not sure any photographer would have been able to be fully engaged chasing murals each day for the perfect shot, especially an older photpgrapher with a busy schedule. I am sure she did what she could and shot when possible, which in your argument might not have been enough to capture a good picture, ok but again you are using hindsight with events that we all watched unfold as they were happening. How is anyone to be in the right place at the right time all the time. This print on its own is in no way interesting to me. It's staged after the fact and it's not really clear what she's trying to say, if anything. Putting a black kid on a discarded couch doesn't add anything creatively to Banksy's message. To me, it dumbs it down. Staged? Is there proof that this shot was staged By Martha or was there just a couch there and a kid of color that she seen an opportunity and shot it. Not saying its not staged but I have no proof either way. So for me, this photograph isn't a very good piece of art in and of itself. I think most people who like it only like it because Martha Cooper shot it. To me, that's like buying a Banksy print you don't really like just because Banksy did it. Which I would never do. Well when people build careers they sometimes get the benefit of the doubt and also the bonus effect that people collect their work even if its bad or good. Sometimes when you are a fan you like what you like even if another artist might do 1 shot better the history and career is the the artist doing it longer and before anyone else. But hey I am sure the perfect shot is on instagram somewhere and can be bought at a great deal, but if you buy what you like I guess that is a good route even if the photographer might not plan to make a career out of photos. Ive seen people buy art from artists who arent big names so its not out of the oridinary. I am always for anyone being supported for their art. The thing that bugs me about street art in general, and this forum in particular, is the hype. Some artists can do no wrong in the eyes of the herd and any dissenting options are met with righteous indignation. I think all artists and all art should be open praise or criticism on its own merits. But again, I can only speak for myself. I have to agree with you on this one, the Hype issue gets out of control on here and its good to have some opinions but its also great we have some members who can have valid arguments without it turning to ugly. I just thought your long response demanded a valid counter and I dont see you as a hater perse but I dont agree with most of your points.
Fast forward to now. Banksy is not seen as urban decay. Quite the opposite. He is more representative of gentrification. The mural she shot has been seen by millions. Everyone who would be interested in seeing it already has seen it over a year ago. It's not presenting anything new or interesting the way the vast majority of her work has throughout her career. So with this argument you are stating because Banksy is not urban decay but a representative of gentrification its not as interesting as early work and maybe she should just do what she did decades ago. Not a good argument for progression or dealing with current events but its a valid argument I guess. I dont ge the argument that because it happened a year ago its not a relavant work especially in photography where photos usually make there way out way after the fact. But OK. If she had been more engaged with BOTI as it was happening, I think she could have generated much more interesting work. If she had shot the local "entrepreneurs" charging hipsters to see Banksy's beaver, that would have been amazing. Or if she had captured the property manager knocking that ragger on his ass, it would have said something powerful about the street art scene. I am not sure any photographer would have been able to be fully engaged chasing murals each day for the perfect shot, especially an older photpgrapher with a busy schedule. I am sure she did what she could and shot when possible, which in your argument might not have been enough to capture a good picture, ok but again you are using hindsight with events that we all watched unfold as they were happening. How is anyone to be in the right place at the right time all the time. This print on its own is in no way interesting to me. It's staged after the fact and it's not really clear what she's trying to say, if anything. Putting a black kid on a discarded couch doesn't add anything creatively to Banksy's message. To me, it dumbs it down. Staged? Is there proof that this shot was staged By Martha or was there just a couch there and a kid of color that she seen an opportunity and shot it. Not saying its not staged but I have no proof either way. So for me, this photograph isn't a very good piece of art in and of itself. I think most people who like it only like it because Martha Cooper shot it. To me, that's like buying a Banksy print you don't really like just because Banksy did it. Which I would never do. Well when people build careers they sometimes get the benefit of the doubt and also the bonus effect that people collect their work even if its bad or good. Sometimes when you are a fan you like what you like even if another artist might do 1 shot better the history and career is the the artist doing it longer and before anyone else. But hey I am sure the perfect shot is on instagram somewhere and can be bought at a great deal, but if you buy what you like I guess that is a good route even if the photographer might not plan to make a career out of photos. Ive seen people buy art from artists who arent big names so its not out of the oridinary. I am always for anyone being supported for their art. The thing that bugs me about street art in general, and this forum in particular, is the hype. Some artists can do no wrong in the eyes of the herd and any dissenting options are met with righteous indignation. I think all artists and all art should be open praise or criticism on its own merits. But again, I can only speak for myself. I have to agree with you on this one, the Hype issue gets out of control on here and its good to have some opinions but its also great we have some members who can have valid arguments without it turning to ugly. I just thought your long response demanded a valid counter and I dont see you as a hater perse but I dont agree with most of your points. |
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 0:38:20 GMT 1, I just wish someone with her reputation and legacy wouldn't have to lower her standards by allowing a bunch of two-bit huckster gallerists gouge her supposed fans. I'm being sarcastic of course because the reason people bought this was the Banksy connection. It was also the reason the gallery doubled the price for "the last few."
Greed and opportunism. Pure and simple.
(And please, spare me the tiered price scheme schtick, K?)
I just wish someone with her reputation and legacy wouldn't have to lower her standards by allowing a bunch of two-bit huckster gallerists gouge her supposed fans. I'm being sarcastic of course because the reason people bought this was the Banksy connection. It was also the reason the gallery doubled the price for "the last few."
Greed and opportunism. Pure and simple.
(And please, spare me the tiered price scheme schtick, K?)
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curiousgeorge
Junior Member
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by curiousgeorge on Mar 27, 2015 0:39:53 GMT 1, Sticking a dead sofa on the sidewalk/pavement IS what happens in the ghetto
Some posters must remember this??
Sticking a dead sofa on the sidewalk/pavement IS what happens in the ghetto
Some posters must remember this??
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 1:24:48 GMT 1, I like the idea of anyone on this forum thinking they understand the plight of people living "in the ghetto."
Elvis, on the other hand, he knew.
I like the idea of anyone on this forum thinking they understand the plight of people living "in the ghetto."
Elvis, on the other hand, he knew.
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randomname
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,962
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June 2013
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by randomname on Mar 27, 2015 1:29:34 GMT 1, Personally, I don't think the photography adds any creativity to the piece. It just feels like a shameless money grab to me. I can see buying a print of one of her early photographs when few people treated graffiti as legitimate art. But this feels like she's trying to cash in on someone else's work and popularity. I think her reputation is as one who documents the streets. From her Subway Art book in the 70's to her Street Play book in the 80's (of which I have a signed photo #1 of I think 150). Her history is as a photo journalist, documenting and thus providing historical reference. Looking at her history helps understand where she fits in. And under those circumstances documenting something from the October harvest known as BOTI makes sense. I can see a finished Haring in NYC any time I want. Photos of him at work document history.
I'm aware. My point was that this is posed as opposed to documentation. That and this mural had already been documented by a thousand other people. As a result, it's far less interesting than the vast majority of her work to me.
Personally, I don't think the photography adds any creativity to the piece. It just feels like a shameless money grab to me. I can see buying a print of one of her early photographs when few people treated graffiti as legitimate art. But this feels like she's trying to cash in on someone else's work and popularity. I think her reputation is as one who documents the streets. From her Subway Art book in the 70's to her Street Play book in the 80's (of which I have a signed photo #1 of I think 150). Her history is as a photo journalist, documenting and thus providing historical reference. Looking at her history helps understand where she fits in. And under those circumstances documenting something from the October harvest known as BOTI makes sense. I can see a finished Haring in NYC any time I want. Photos of him at work document history. I'm aware. My point was that this is posed as opposed to documentation. That and this mural had already been documented by a thousand other people. As a result, it's far less interesting than the vast majority of her work to me. |
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curiousgeorge
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 5,833
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by curiousgeorge on Mar 27, 2015 1:47:37 GMT 1, I like the idea of anyone on this forum thinking they understand the plight of people living "in the ghetto." Elvis, on the other hand, he knew.
How would you even have a clue about the real backgrounds of members?
I like the idea of anyone on this forum thinking they understand the plight of people living "in the ghetto." Elvis, on the other hand, he knew. How would you even have a clue about the real backgrounds of members? |
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randomname
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,962
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June 2013
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by randomname on Mar 27, 2015 1:56:18 GMT 1, Fast forward to now. Banksy is not seen as urban decay. Quite the opposite. He is more representative of gentrification. The mural she shot has been seen by millions. Everyone who would be interested in seeing it already has seen it over a year ago. It's not presenting anything new or interesting the way the vast majority of her work has throughout her career. So with this argument you are stating because Banksy is not urban decay but a representative of gentrification its not as interesting as early work and maybe she should just do what she did decades ago. Not a good argument for progression or dealing with current events but its a valid argument I guess. I dont ge the argument that because it happened a year ago its not a relavant work especially in photography where photos usually make there way out way after the fact. But OK. If she had been more engaged with BOTI as it was happening, I think she could have generated much more interesting work. If she had shot the local "entrepreneurs" charging hipsters to see Banksy's beaver, that would have been amazing. Or if she had captured the property manager knocking that ragger on his ass, it would have said something powerful about the street art scene. I am not sure any photographer would have been able to be fully engaged chasing murals each day for the perfect shot, especially an older photpgrapher with a busy schedule. I am sure she did what she could and shot when possible, which in your argument might not have been enough to capture a good picture, ok but again you are using hindsight with events that we all watched unfold as they were happening. How is anyone to be in the right place at the right time all the time. This print on its own is in no way interesting to me. It's staged after the fact and it's not really clear what she's trying to say, if anything. Putting a black kid on a discarded couch doesn't add anything creatively to Banksy's message. To me, it dumbs it down. Staged? Is there proof that this shot was staged By Martha or was there just a couch there and a kid of color that she seen an opportunity and shot it. Not saying its not staged but I have no proof either way. So for me, this photograph isn't a very good piece of art in and of itself. I think most people who like it only like it because Martha Cooper shot it. To me, that's like buying a Banksy print you don't really like just because Banksy did it. Which I would never do. Well when people build careers they sometimes get the benefit of the doubt and also the bonus effect that people collect their work even if its bad or good. Sometimes when you are a fan you like what you like even if another artist might do 1 shot better the history and career is the the artist doing it longer and before anyone else. But hey I am sure the perfect shot is on instagram somewhere and can be bought at a great deal, but if you buy what you like I guess that is a good route even if the photographer might not plan to make a career out of photos. Ive seen people buy art from artists who arent big names so its not out of the oridinary. I am always for anyone being supported for their art. The thing that bugs me about street art in general, and this forum in particular, is the hype. Some artists can do no wrong in the eyes of the herd and any dissenting options are met with righteous indignation. I think all artists and all art should be open praise or criticism on its own merits. But again, I can only speak for myself. I have to agree with you on this one, the Hype issue gets out of control on here and its good to have some opinions but its also great we have some members who can have valid arguments without it turning to ugly. I just thought your long response demanded a valid counter and I dont see you as a hater perse but I dont agree with most of your points.
In order to keep this discussion somewhat coherent, I'll respond to your points by number rather than resorting to italics.
1) That wasn't my point at all. My point was that with most of her work, the vast majority of the world, including the established art word, saw graffiti as a plight and not as something to be celebrated. Because she treated graffiti as legitimate art, she was decades ahead of the rest of the art world and her work was truly groundbreaking. She presented graffiti to the world in a way no one had looked at it before. With Banksy, she's feeding what is now the established art world back to itself. Which is not as interesting to me.
2) I don't think she shot a very good image or captured the spirit of BOTI. I don't think it matters why she didn't get a good image. It only matters that she didn't.
3) My first reaction was that the kid looks posed. It looked as if they had dragged the couch into the shot to stage an image. This was reinforced when Ling posted the Instagram shot where a photographer said he helped stage the shot. Either they collaborated on the shot, or she jacked his setup. Either way, the shot is staged.
4) I'm not saying it's a bad thing to buy someone's art based solely on their history and reputation, it's just something I wouldn't do. Some of the art I buy is popular. Some of it is not. I'd probably lose most of what I paid if I ever decided to move it. If a photographer with even the most basic camera skills had captured this scene, I would buy a print. If Martha had shot it, it would be considered iconic of Banksy's residency.
5) I appreciate the response. I don't think you said anything I strongly disagree with. But I also don't think you said anything that really contradicts what I'm saying.
Fast forward to now. Banksy is not seen as urban decay. Quite the opposite. He is more representative of gentrification. The mural she shot has been seen by millions. Everyone who would be interested in seeing it already has seen it over a year ago. It's not presenting anything new or interesting the way the vast majority of her work has throughout her career. So with this argument you are stating because Banksy is not urban decay but a representative of gentrification its not as interesting as early work and maybe she should just do what she did decades ago. Not a good argument for progression or dealing with current events but its a valid argument I guess. I dont ge the argument that because it happened a year ago its not a relavant work especially in photography where photos usually make there way out way after the fact. But OK. If she had been more engaged with BOTI as it was happening, I think she could have generated much more interesting work. If she had shot the local "entrepreneurs" charging hipsters to see Banksy's beaver, that would have been amazing. Or if she had captured the property manager knocking that ragger on his ass, it would have said something powerful about the street art scene. I am not sure any photographer would have been able to be fully engaged chasing murals each day for the perfect shot, especially an older photpgrapher with a busy schedule. I am sure she did what she could and shot when possible, which in your argument might not have been enough to capture a good picture, ok but again you are using hindsight with events that we all watched unfold as they were happening. How is anyone to be in the right place at the right time all the time. This print on its own is in no way interesting to me. It's staged after the fact and it's not really clear what she's trying to say, if anything. Putting a black kid on a discarded couch doesn't add anything creatively to Banksy's message. To me, it dumbs it down. Staged? Is there proof that this shot was staged By Martha or was there just a couch there and a kid of color that she seen an opportunity and shot it. Not saying its not staged but I have no proof either way. So for me, this photograph isn't a very good piece of art in and of itself. I think most people who like it only like it because Martha Cooper shot it. To me, that's like buying a Banksy print you don't really like just because Banksy did it. Which I would never do. Well when people build careers they sometimes get the benefit of the doubt and also the bonus effect that people collect their work even if its bad or good. Sometimes when you are a fan you like what you like even if another artist might do 1 shot better the history and career is the the artist doing it longer and before anyone else. But hey I am sure the perfect shot is on instagram somewhere and can be bought at a great deal, but if you buy what you like I guess that is a good route even if the photographer might not plan to make a career out of photos. Ive seen people buy art from artists who arent big names so its not out of the oridinary. I am always for anyone being supported for their art. The thing that bugs me about street art in general, and this forum in particular, is the hype. Some artists can do no wrong in the eyes of the herd and any dissenting options are met with righteous indignation. I think all artists and all art should be open praise or criticism on its own merits. But again, I can only speak for myself. I have to agree with you on this one, the Hype issue gets out of control on here and its good to have some opinions but its also great we have some members who can have valid arguments without it turning to ugly. I just thought your long response demanded a valid counter and I dont see you as a hater perse but I dont agree with most of your points. In order to keep this discussion somewhat coherent, I'll respond to your points by number rather than resorting to italics. 1) That wasn't my point at all. My point was that with most of her work, the vast majority of the world, including the established art word, saw graffiti as a plight and not as something to be celebrated. Because she treated graffiti as legitimate art, she was decades ahead of the rest of the art world and her work was truly groundbreaking. She presented graffiti to the world in a way no one had looked at it before. With Banksy, she's feeding what is now the established art world back to itself. Which is not as interesting to me. 2) I don't think she shot a very good image or captured the spirit of BOTI. I don't think it matters why she didn't get a good image. It only matters that she didn't. 3) My first reaction was that the kid looks posed. It looked as if they had dragged the couch into the shot to stage an image. This was reinforced when Ling posted the Instagram shot where a photographer said he helped stage the shot. Either they collaborated on the shot, or she jacked his setup. Either way, the shot is staged. 4) I'm not saying it's a bad thing to buy someone's art based solely on their history and reputation, it's just something I wouldn't do. Some of the art I buy is popular. Some of it is not. I'd probably lose most of what I paid if I ever decided to move it. If a photographer with even the most basic camera skills had captured this scene, I would buy a print. If Martha had shot it, it would be considered iconic of Banksy's residency. 5) I appreciate the response. I don't think you said anything I strongly disagree with. But I also don't think you said anything that really contradicts what I'm saying. |
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 2:20:55 GMT 1, I like the idea of anyone on this forum thinking they understand the plight of people living "in the ghetto." Elvis, on the other hand, he knew. How would you even have a clue about the real backgrounds of members?
I like the idea of anyone on this forum thinking they understand the plight of people living "in the ghetto." Elvis, on the other hand, he knew. How would you even have a clue about the real backgrounds of members? Yes, I bet I do. The only thing "urban" about this place is it's slightly ironic title. |
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 2:23:34 GMT 1, Please, tell us all about how you escaped the cycle of racism and poverty to be the upper middle class forumite you are today. Tell us all how the urban art you pay thousands of quid on reminds you of your upbringing on the mean streets of wherever you're from. Please, I could use a laugh.
(This is open to all members!)
Please, tell us all about how you escaped the cycle of racism and poverty to be the upper middle class forumite you are today. Tell us all how the urban art you pay thousands of quid on reminds you of your upbringing on the mean streets of wherever you're from. Please, I could use a laugh.
(This is open to all members!) |
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curiousgeorge
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 5,833
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March 2007
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by curiousgeorge on Mar 27, 2015 2:35:06 GMT 1, Please, tell us all about how you escaped the cycle of racism and poverty to be the upper middle class forumite you are today. Tell us all how the urban art you pay thousands of quid on reminds you of your upbringing on the mean streets of wherever you're from. Please, I could use a laugh.
(This is open to all members!)
I'll bite
Personally sat yards away from pi55 ridden communal stairs with dirty needles in plain sight. Not everybody is defined by objects they may or may not own.
Please, tell us all about how you escaped the cycle of racism and poverty to be the upper middle class forumite you are today. Tell us all how the urban art you pay thousands of quid on reminds you of your upbringing on the mean streets of wherever you're from. Please, I could use a laugh.
(This is open to all members!) I'll bite Personally sat yards away from pi55 ridden communal stairs with dirty needles in plain sight. Not everybody is defined by objects they may or may not own. |
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A.R.T.
New Member
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July 2007
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by A.R.T. on Mar 27, 2015 3:21:59 GMT 1, Please, tell us all about how you escaped the cycle of racism and poverty to be the upper middle class forumite you are today. Tell us all how the urban art you pay thousands of quid on reminds you of your upbringing on the mean streets of wherever you're from. Please, I could use a laugh.
(This is open to all members!)
I'll bite on this ignorant statement. Growing up I was far from having a silver spoon in my mouth. I experienced poverty growing up and it was my motivation to do everything in my power to not continue that cycle. I still have family and friends that live in the "ghetto" and live in poverty. I am also a minority and I still experience racism to this day. For you to make a blanket statement like you did is offensive and outright absurd.
Please, tell us all about how you escaped the cycle of racism and poverty to be the upper middle class forumite you are today. Tell us all how the urban art you pay thousands of quid on reminds you of your upbringing on the mean streets of wherever you're from. Please, I could use a laugh.
(This is open to all members!) I'll bite on this ignorant statement. Growing up I was far from having a silver spoon in my mouth. I experienced poverty growing up and it was my motivation to do everything in my power to not continue that cycle. I still have family and friends that live in the "ghetto" and live in poverty. I am also a minority and I still experience racism to this day. For you to make a blanket statement like you did is offensive and outright absurd. |
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 4:04:44 GMT 1, Please, tell us all about how you escaped the cycle of racism and poverty to be the upper middle class forumite you are today. Tell us all how the urban art you pay thousands of quid on reminds you of your upbringing on the mean streets of wherever you're from. Please, I could use a laugh.
(This is open to all members!) I'll bite on this ignorant statement. Growing up I was far from having a silver spoon in my mouth. I experienced poverty growing up and it was my motivation to do everything in my power to not continue that cycle. I still have family and friends that live in the "ghetto" and live in poverty. I am also a minority and I still experience racism to this day. For you to make a blanket statement like you did is offensive and outright absurd. I am humbled by your story Spag. I should be outright banned for my offensive and outright absurd commentary. Hopefully one day I will escape this prejudicial prison I've trapped myself in. I can't help it, growing up I had a silver spoon in my mouth. I'm motivated to do everything in my power to not continue this cycle but it isn't easy because I still have friends and family that live in gated communities and live the high life. I am also a minority (being part of the 1%) and I still experience jealousy to this day.
Please, tell us all about how you escaped the cycle of racism and poverty to be the upper middle class forumite you are today. Tell us all how the urban art you pay thousands of quid on reminds you of your upbringing on the mean streets of wherever you're from. Please, I could use a laugh.
(This is open to all members!) I'll bite on this ignorant statement. Growing up I was far from having a silver spoon in my mouth. I experienced poverty growing up and it was my motivation to do everything in my power to not continue that cycle. I still have family and friends that live in the "ghetto" and live in poverty. I am also a minority and I still experience racism to this day. For you to make a blanket statement like you did is offensive and outright absurd. I am humbled by your story Spag. I should be outright banned for my offensive and outright absurd commentary. Hopefully one day I will escape this prejudicial prison I've trapped myself in. I can't help it, growing up I had a silver spoon in my mouth. I'm motivated to do everything in my power to not continue this cycle but it isn't easy because I still have friends and family that live in gated communities and live the high life. I am also a minority (being part of the 1%) and I still experience jealousy to this day.
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Lunch Special
Junior Member
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October 2010
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by Lunch Special on Mar 27, 2015 4:32:54 GMT 1, So this photo piece has nothing to do with the image of a what one would say is a homeless man in his living room with an original Banksy on his wall right?
Does it really matter where any of us, you or the trolls and gallery people grew up? all that really matters on the banksy.info forum is how many stars you have under your name 
Easy pass. As Banksy never posted this on banksy.co.uk
So this photo piece has nothing to do with the image of a what one would say is a homeless man in his living room with an original Banksy on his wall right? Does it really matter where any of us, you or the trolls and gallery people grew up? all that really matters on the banksy.info forum is how many stars you have under your name Easy pass. As Banksy never posted this on banksy.co.uk |
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 7:15:33 GMT 1, Sticking a dead sofa on the sidewalk/pavement IS what happens in the ghetto Some posters must remember this??
Sticking a dead sofa on the sidewalk/pavement IS what happens in the ghetto Some posters must remember this?? Martha's pre graf book "Street Play" and Helen Levitt's "In the street" street photography 1938-48 is a good starting point for anyone looking for context to this "ghetto" piece. |
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January 1970
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Martha Cooper ๐บ๐ธ Subway Art Book โข New York Graffiti , by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 7:18:29 GMT 1, You're correct, I am defending the artist not the image. Because so many in here have been attacking the artist for creating and selling the image, not the imagery itself. Personally, I like the image. I like that long after the street piece is gone, the image will remain, a nice reminder of a great month in NY from a photographer that helped open the world's eyes to street art. It's certainly not above criticism, and neither is Martha. But there's a lot of stupid running around in this thread. My comments, while quoting you, are less directed at you then at the people s**tting on her. That's one way of looking at it. Here's another. If you believe she didn't add anything creatively to the image, you might come to the conclusion its only artistic merit comes from the work Banksy created. And if you were to come to that conclusion, it might feel exploitive to sell an image where the only creative element was created by another artist. Whether or not you agree with that line of thinking, I think you should be able to see the validity in such an opinion. It doesn't take anything away from her as an artist or a person. Every artist makes mistakes and puts out some duds from time to time. This just happens to be a rare one from her in my opinion.
You're correct, I am defending the artist not the image. Because so many in here have been attacking the artist for creating and selling the image, not the imagery itself. Personally, I like the image. I like that long after the street piece is gone, the image will remain, a nice reminder of a great month in NY from a photographer that helped open the world's eyes to street art. It's certainly not above criticism, and neither is Martha. But there's a lot of stupid running around in this thread. My comments, while quoting you, are less directed at you then at the people s**tting on her. That's one way of looking at it. Here's another. If you believe she didn't add anything creatively to the image, you might come to the conclusion its only artistic merit comes from the work Banksy created. And if you were to come to that conclusion, it might feel exploitive to sell an image where the only creative element was created by another artist. Whether or not you agree with that line of thinking, I think you should be able to see the validity in such an opinion. It doesn't take anything away from her as an artist or a person. Every artist makes mistakes and puts out some duds from time to time. This just happens to be a rare one from her in my opinion. wouldn't worry about it too much. |
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