Pistol
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by Pistol on Feb 9, 2019 21:09:22 GMT 1, Can never get my head round a print signed by someone other than the artist.
Can never get my head round a print signed by someone other than the artist.
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kalm
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by kalm on Feb 9, 2019 21:12:50 GMT 1, Who would spend $35k on an estate print? No one is ever buying this...maybe look around for new casinos being built and ask them??? Dunno
Who would spend $35k on an estate print? No one is ever buying this...maybe look around for new casinos being built and ask them??? Dunno |
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 21:14:27 GMT 1, I would have bought the fragile print! Thatโs mega and signed by the estate.
I would have bought the fragile print! Thatโs mega and signed by the estate.
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nik2000
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by nik2000 on Feb 10, 2019 1:10:05 GMT 1, not entirely related, but did Basquiat ever release/sign any prints himself? or is it only these recent releases available.
not entirely related, but did Basquiat ever release/sign any prints himself? or is it only these recent releases available.
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Inknart
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by Inknart on Feb 10, 2019 1:59:18 GMT 1, I would have bought the fragile print! Thatโs mega and signed by the estate.
I would have bought the fragile print! Thatโs mega and signed by the estate. I will admit they're impressive, but why? Why would you want something the artist had no say in and no collaboration of at all? These are pure money grabs by an estate, with no more merit than a skate deck from a creative standpoint from the same estate Sure, the prints are top notch, but they haven't been touched or even given the blessing from the actual artist of the work. It's like buying something they could have despised. They would be very nice pieces of memorabilia for a reasonable price, but demanding 50k plus for something like this just seems absurd to me. I would rather buy a signed book for 3500 where the artist himself touched. |
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jp
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by jp on Feb 10, 2019 4:32:54 GMT 1, I would have bought the fragile print! Thatโs mega and signed by the estate. I will admit they're impressive, but why? Why would you want something the artist had no say in and no collaboration of at all? These are pure money grabs by an estate, with no more merit than a skate deck from a creative standpoint from the same estate Sure, the prints are top notch, but they haven't been touched or even given the blessing from the actual artist of the work. It's like buying something they could have despised. They would be very nice pieces of memorabilia for a reasonable price, but demanding 50k plus for something like this just seems absurd to me. I would rather buy a signed book for 3500 where the artist himself touched.
I did own the signed book that contained this drawing and a bunch of others that I think are better. I sold it last year, but took hi-res photos of each page before I sold it so I can flip through it virtually if I want to revisit the work.
I would have bought the fragile print! Thatโs mega and signed by the estate. I will admit they're impressive, but why? Why would you want something the artist had no say in and no collaboration of at all? These are pure money grabs by an estate, with no more merit than a skate deck from a creative standpoint from the same estate Sure, the prints are top notch, but they haven't been touched or even given the blessing from the actual artist of the work. It's like buying something they could have despised. They would be very nice pieces of memorabilia for a reasonable price, but demanding 50k plus for something like this just seems absurd to me. I would rather buy a signed book for 3500 where the artist himself touched. Money is why. The first set of 4 prints released posthumously was in 2001. That set sells for upwards of 250k now. Despite all your protests above (which I agree with by the way), there is obviously a lucrative market for these prints. So yeah, money. I did own the signed book that contained this drawing and a bunch of others that I think are better. I sold it last year, but took hi-res photos of each page before I sold it so I can flip through it virtually if I want to revisit the work. |
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Pistol
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by Pistol on Feb 10, 2019 9:34:22 GMT 1, Can never get my head round a print signed by someone other than the artist.
Can never get my head round a print signed by someone other than the artist.
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blerd
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by blerd on Feb 10, 2019 10:35:05 GMT 1, I do understand as 99% of the population can't afford an OG, the market for an authorised limited estate signed prints makes sense. Having said that greed definitely plays a part.
Some of these living Artist limited releases are greedy too.
I do understand as 99% of the population can't afford an OG, the market for an authorised limited estate signed prints makes sense. Having said that greed definitely plays a part.
Some of these living Artist limited releases are greedy too.
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Poster Bob
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by Poster Bob on Feb 10, 2019 14:56:00 GMT 1, Exactly. Talk all the shi*t you want boys, these Basquiat posters are bank. I agree that they have no historical value whatsoever but uninformed buyers want them. Make some money and let the twit buyer deal with it when the market crashes.
I will admit they're impressive, but why? Why would you want something the artist had no say in and no collaboration of at all? These are pure money grabs by an estate, with no more merit than a skate deck from a creative standpoint from the same estate ย Sure, the prints are top notch, but they haven't been touched or even given the blessing from the actual artist of the work. It's like buying something they could have despised. They would be very nice pieces of memorabilia for a reasonable price, but demanding 50k plus for something like this just seems absurd to me. I would rather buy a signed book for 3500 where the artist himself touched. ย Money is why. The first set of 4 prints released posthumously was in 2001. That set sells for upwards of 250k now. Despite all your protests above (which I agree with by the way), there is obviously a lucrative market for these prints. So yeah, money. I did own the signed book that contained this drawing and a bunch of others that I think are better. I sold it last year, but took hi-res photos of each page before I sold it so I can flip through it virtually if I want to revisit the work.
Exactly. Talk all the shi*t you want boys, these Basquiat posters are bank. I agree that they have no historical value whatsoever but uninformed buyers want them. Make some money and let the twit buyer deal with it when the market crashes. I will admit they're impressive, but why? Why would you want something the artist had no say in and no collaboration of at all? These are pure money grabs by an estate, with no more merit than a skate deck from a creative standpoint from the same estate ย Sure, the prints are top notch, but they haven't been touched or even given the blessing from the actual artist of the work. It's like buying something they could have despised. They would be very nice pieces of memorabilia for a reasonable price, but demanding 50k plus for something like this just seems absurd to me. I would rather buy a signed book for 3500 where the artist himself touched. ย Money is why. The first set of 4 prints released posthumously was in 2001. That set sells for upwards of 250k now. Despite all your protests above (which I agree with by the way), there is obviously a lucrative market for these prints. So yeah, money. I did own the signed book that contained this drawing and a bunch of others that I think are better. I sold it last year, but took hi-res photos of each page before I sold it so I can flip through it virtually if I want to revisit the work. |
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rodgro
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by rodgro on Feb 11, 2019 17:22:37 GMT 1, Hmmm, so Iโm guessing the people who wouldnโt buy an unsigned print by a dead artists estate would follow the same logic and wouldnโt consider buying an unsigned print by a living artist either, correct? Or is it just that this buyer is asking 20K more than he/she paid for it? This logic doesnโt seem to apply for some artists, one in particular. Not sure why people feel the need to do this to SOME sale threads but others doing literally exactly the same thing it seems to be fine. Anyway, best of luck with the sale.
Hmmm, so Iโm guessing the people who wouldnโt buy an unsigned print by a dead artists estate would follow the same logic and wouldnโt consider buying an unsigned print by a living artist either, correct? Or is it just that this buyer is asking 20K more than he/she paid for it? This logic doesnโt seem to apply for some artists, one in particular. Not sure why people feel the need to do this to SOME sale threads but others doing literally exactly the same thing it seems to be fine. Anyway, best of luck with the sale.
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by Happy Shopper on Feb 11, 2019 17:29:15 GMT 1, Hmmm, so Iโm guessing the people who wouldnโt buy an unsigned print by a dead artists estate would follow the same logic and wouldnโt consider buying an unsigned print by a living artist either, correct? Or is it just that this buyer is asking 20K more than he/she paid for it? This logic doesnโt seem to apply for some artists, one in particular. Not sure why people feel the need to do this to SOME sale threads but others doing literally exactly the same thing it seems to be fine. Anyway, best of luck with the sale.
Unsigned prints by a living artist are still approved by the artist. For image choice, quality, etc. So I'd still consider them to be a work made by the artist themselves.
Hmmm, so Iโm guessing the people who wouldnโt buy an unsigned print by a dead artists estate would follow the same logic and wouldnโt consider buying an unsigned print by a living artist either, correct? Or is it just that this buyer is asking 20K more than he/she paid for it? This logic doesnโt seem to apply for some artists, one in particular. Not sure why people feel the need to do this to SOME sale threads but others doing literally exactly the same thing it seems to be fine. Anyway, best of luck with the sale. Unsigned prints by a living artist are still approved by the artist. For image choice, quality, etc. So I'd still consider them to be a work made by the artist themselves. |
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by Happy Shopper on Feb 11, 2019 17:45:04 GMT 1, What I don't understand about these prints is that they sell out so fast and for such big money, yet limited edition skateboards, bearbricks, etc aren't considered anything other than cheap merchandise, despite being so similar in there "authenticity" with the estate.
It reminds me more of bit coin than art. (They're worth the price anyone is willing to pay!)
What I don't understand about these prints is that they sell out so fast and for such big money, yet limited edition skateboards, bearbricks, etc aren't considered anything other than cheap merchandise, despite being so similar in there "authenticity" with the estate.
It reminds me more of bit coin than art. (They're worth the price anyone is willing to pay!)
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caruso
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by caruso on Feb 11, 2019 17:59:38 GMT 1, What I don't understand about these prints is that they sell out so fast and for such big money, yet limited edition skateboards, bearbricks, etc aren't considered anything other than cheap merchandise, despite being so similar in there "authenticity" with the estate. It reminds me more of bit coin than art. (They're worth the price anyone is willing to pay!)
What I don't understand about these prints is that they sell out so fast and for such big money, yet limited edition skateboards, bearbricks, etc aren't considered anything other than cheap merchandise, despite being so similar in there "authenticity" with the estate. It reminds me more of bit coin than art. (They're worth the price anyone is willing to pay!) I agree. |
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caruso
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by caruso on Feb 11, 2019 18:01:46 GMT 1, Hmmm, so Iโm guessing the people who wouldnโt buy an unsigned print by a dead artists estate would follow the same logic and wouldnโt consider buying an unsigned print by a living artist either, correct? Or is it just that this buyer is asking 20K more than he/she paid for it? This logic doesnโt seem to apply for some artists, one in particular. Not sure why people feel the need to do this to SOME sale threads but others doing literally exactly the same thing it seems to be fine. Anyway, best of luck with the sale. Unsigned prints by a living artist are still approved by the artist. For image choice, quality, etc. So I'd still consider them to be a work made by the artist themselves.
Hmmm, so Iโm guessing the people who wouldnโt buy an unsigned print by a dead artists estate would follow the same logic and wouldnโt consider buying an unsigned print by a living artist either, correct? Or is it just that this buyer is asking 20K more than he/she paid for it? This logic doesnโt seem to apply for some artists, one in particular. Not sure why people feel the need to do this to SOME sale threads but others doing literally exactly the same thing it seems to be fine. Anyway, best of luck with the sale. Unsigned prints by a living artist are still approved by the artist. For image choice, quality, etc. So I'd still consider them to be a work made by the artist themselves. But I disagree with that. I would never buy 'estate' anything. There are tons of scam stories out there, not just for art but also celebs, and I do not see an estate approved print as bearing the mark of the artist. Personal opinion only. |
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by Happy Shopper on Feb 11, 2019 18:20:47 GMT 1, Unsigned prints by a living artist are still approved by the artist. For image choice, quality, etc. So I'd still consider them to be a work made by the artist themselves. But I disagree with that. I would never buy 'estate' anything. There are tons of scam stories out there, not just for art but also celebs, and I do not see an estate approved print as bearing the mark of the artist. Personal opinion only.
That's what I meant. Unsigned prints by living artist: it's their art. By Dead artist: very grey area.
Unsigned prints by a living artist are still approved by the artist. For image choice, quality, etc. So I'd still consider them to be a work made by the artist themselves. But I disagree with that. I would never buy 'estate' anything. There are tons of scam stories out there, not just for art but also celebs, and I do not see an estate approved print as bearing the mark of the artist. Personal opinion only. That's what I meant. Unsigned prints by living artist: it's their art. By Dead artist: very grey area. |
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rodgro
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by rodgro on Feb 11, 2019 19:27:17 GMT 1, Hmmm, so Iโm guessing the people who wouldnโt buy an unsigned print by a dead artists estate would follow the same logic and wouldnโt consider buying an unsigned print by a living artist either, correct? Or is it just that this buyer is asking 20K more than he/she paid for it? This logic doesnโt seem to apply for some artists, one in particular. Not sure why people feel the need to do this to SOME sale threads but others doing literally exactly the same thing it seems to be fine. Anyway, best of luck with the sale. Unsigned prints by a living artist are still approved by the artist. For image choice, quality, etc. So I'd still consider them to be a work made by the artist themselves.
Makes sense, but I think there is a big assumption by some that the artistโs estate is doing something against their wishes, etc to validate the posts. I personally donโt think quality should be an issue for anyone with regard to these prints as they are being printed by arguably one of the finest print houses in existence. I just think itโs funny that some people think that buying an unsigned print by someone who canโt sign it as they have passed away, but yet itโs ok to buy a print by a living artist who chooses not to sign a print. I think itโs simply a matter of being able to convince ourselves of things when itโs convenient and not when itโs not.
Hmmm, so Iโm guessing the people who wouldnโt buy an unsigned print by a dead artists estate would follow the same logic and wouldnโt consider buying an unsigned print by a living artist either, correct? Or is it just that this buyer is asking 20K more than he/she paid for it? This logic doesnโt seem to apply for some artists, one in particular. Not sure why people feel the need to do this to SOME sale threads but others doing literally exactly the same thing it seems to be fine. Anyway, best of luck with the sale. Unsigned prints by a living artist are still approved by the artist. For image choice, quality, etc. So I'd still consider them to be a work made by the artist themselves. Makes sense, but I think there is a big assumption by some that the artistโs estate is doing something against their wishes, etc to validate the posts. I personally donโt think quality should be an issue for anyone with regard to these prints as they are being printed by arguably one of the finest print houses in existence. I just think itโs funny that some people think that buying an unsigned print by someone who canโt sign it as they have passed away, but yet itโs ok to buy a print by a living artist who chooses not to sign a print. I think itโs simply a matter of being able to convince ourselves of things when itโs convenient and not when itโs not. |
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Pattycakes
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by Pattycakes on Feb 12, 2019 22:00:16 GMT 1, not entirely related, but did Basquiat ever release/sign any prints himself? or is it only these recent releases available.
not entirely related, but did Basquiat ever release/sign any prints himself? or is it only these recent releases available. Yes he did a few, very few but some. Interestingly you can buy the single plates signed from the Leonardo suite for about the price of Grin Reaper. Go figure. |
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by bullysonzx10r on Feb 14, 2019 3:52:49 GMT 1, I had a chance to buy "Head" by the basquiat Estate in 2006 for $25K USD. I didn't have anywhere near the cash needed at the time.
The same Gallery has one available today for $100K USD.
I mean, I actually love that image, and I really enjoy the life and work of Basquiat, so while it wasn't "His vision" for the print, I'd still definitely display that piece proudly considering that his heart and soul went into painting that original image.
I had a chance to buy "Head" by the basquiat Estate in 2006 for $25K USD. I didn't have anywhere near the cash needed at the time.
The same Gallery has one available today for $100K USD.
I mean, I actually love that image, and I really enjoy the life and work of Basquiat, so while it wasn't "His vision" for the print, I'd still definitely display that piece proudly considering that his heart and soul went into painting that original image.
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by tommy the animator on Feb 15, 2019 23:38:26 GMT 1, Samo Gamo is a basquiat tribute series: 2 Drawings and 7 paintings symbolizing basquiats passing at the age 27. The series is in progress although some of the work has sold. anyone interested in whats availble at the moment msg me or email me at thecinematks@gmail.com Thanks
Samo Gamo 27x33 Framed (SOLD)
acrylic, color pencils and spray paint on board
Consumers 16x20 Framed or Unframed (Available)
acrylic, color pencils and spray paint on Unstretched canvas
Corporations 16x20 Framed or Unframed (Available)
acrylic, color pencils and spray paint on Unstretched canvas
Dino-Sour 9x12 Framed (Available)
acrylic, color pencils and crayons on paper
Young Kings 9x12 Framed (SOLD)
acrylic, color pencils and crayons on paper
Samo Gamo is a basquiat tribute series: 2 Drawings and 7 paintings symbolizing basquiats passing at the age 27. The series is in progress although some of the work has sold. anyone interested in whats availble at the moment msg me or email me at thecinematks@gmail.com Thanks
Samo Gamo 27x33 Framed (SOLD)
acrylic, color pencils and spray paint on board
Consumers 16x20 Framed or Unframed (Available)
acrylic, color pencils and spray paint on Unstretched canvas
Corporations 16x20 Framed or Unframed (Available)
acrylic, color pencils and spray paint on Unstretched canvas
Dino-Sour 9x12 Framed (Available)
acrylic, color pencils and crayons on paper
Young Kings 9x12 Framed (SOLD)
acrylic, color pencils and crayons on paper
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Fast Eddie
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by Fast Eddie on Feb 17, 2019 18:27:41 GMT 1, I thought some of you might be interested.
Rammellzee with cover by Basquiat. This is it:
www.discogs.com/Rammellzee-K-Rob-Beat-Bop/release/1190926
(for sale at 4,000EUR is not a bargain though)
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moron
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by moron on Feb 17, 2019 23:55:44 GMT 1, I like those. The words on the art are a clever take on todays society. I would be happy with any of those on my wall.
I like those. The words on the art are a clever take on todays society. I would be happy with any of those on my wall.
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Carl Cashman
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by Carl Cashman on Feb 18, 2019 4:15:27 GMT 1, Saw the original of that in NY
Saw the original of that in NY
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tab1
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by tab1 on Feb 18, 2019 10:59:39 GMT 1, When click on the link and look at stats for prices ยฃ66-1700 then a few internet links$1500
2nd repress can be had for ยฃ20!if you like the image
When click on the link and look at stats for prices ยฃ66-1700 then a few internet links$1500 2nd repress can be had for ยฃ20!if you like the image |
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by tommy the animator on Feb 18, 2019 13:49:00 GMT 1, I like those. The words on the art are a clever take on todays society. I would be happy with any of those on my wall.
I like those. The words on the art are a clever take on todays society. I would be happy with any of those on my wall. Thanks! much appreciated. |
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Fast Eddie
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by Fast Eddie on Feb 18, 2019 16:01:02 GMT 1, Saw the original of that in NY
All the iconography that he used, linking graffiti to the illuminations of medieval manuscripts by monks, the random math references... His mind was like his costumes...
Saw the original of that in NY At the MoMa or at the Red Bull exhibition? All the iconography that he used, linking graffiti to the illuminations of medieval manuscripts by monks, the random math references... His mind was like his costumes... |
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Carl Cashman
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by Carl Cashman on Feb 18, 2019 16:31:15 GMT 1,
Saw the original of that in NY At the MoMa or at the Red Bull exhibition? All the iconography that he used, linking graffiti to the illuminations of medieval manuscripts by monks, the random math references... His mind was like his costumes...
Red bull show... the guy was a generations ahead of everyone around him. The suits would look fresh af in any show now days.
Saw the original of that in NY At the MoMa or at the Red Bull exhibition? All the iconography that he used, linking graffiti to the illuminations of medieval manuscripts by monks, the random math references... His mind was like his costumes... Red bull show... the guy was a generations ahead of everyone around him. The suits would look fresh af in any show now days. |
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Fast Eddie
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by Fast Eddie on Feb 18, 2019 17:03:31 GMT 1, Still bummed I could not go last summer... Anyway, all true. A man who could see things nobody saw.
Still bummed I could not go last summer... Anyway, all true. A man who could see things nobody saw.
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tab1
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by tab1 on Feb 18, 2019 17:48:25 GMT 1, At the MoMa or at the Red Bull exhibition? All the iconography that he used, linking graffiti to the illuminations of medieval manuscripts by monks, the random math references... His mind was like his costumes... Red bull show... the guy was a generations ahead of everyone around him. The suits would look fresh af in any show now days.
The huge amounts of pablos escobars finest had his mind working overtime , many articles describe the cocaine parties he held which were not frowned upon then .
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.spin.com/2013/11/beat-bop-basquiat-k-rob-rammellzee-freak-freak%3famp=1
Many artists abstract minds and thoughts if you research were fuelled by drugs
At the MoMa or at the Red Bull exhibition? All the iconography that he used, linking graffiti to the illuminations of medieval manuscripts by monks, the random math references... His mind was like his costumes... Red bull show... the guy was a generations ahead of everyone around him. The suits would look fresh af in any show now days. The huge amounts of pablos escobars finest had his mind working overtime , many articles describe the cocaine parties he held which were not frowned upon then . www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.spin.com/2013/11/beat-bop-basquiat-k-rob-rammellzee-freak-freak%3famp=1Many artists abstract minds and thoughts if you research were fuelled by drugs |
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Fast Eddie
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by Fast Eddie on Feb 18, 2019 17:51:21 GMT 1, I think you get the causality wrong honestly. Intricate and obsessive minds seek self medication through drugs and also produce great art. But you should not necessarily attribute the art to the drugs.
I think you get the causality wrong honestly. Intricate and obsessive minds seek self medication through drugs and also produce great art. But you should not necessarily attribute the art to the drugs.
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tab1
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by tab1 on Feb 18, 2019 18:27:22 GMT 1, I think you get the causality wrong honestly. Intricate and obsessive minds seek self medication through drugs and also produce great art. But you should not necessarily attribute the art to the drugs.
Hence term fuel, they help exaggerate thought processes .
I am sure lack of sleep , a highly stimulated mind helps process those abstract vivid images hence drug free minds can't process, comprehend some of the work. Also explains the large amounts of work produced in all cases .
I think you get the causality wrong honestly. Intricate and obsessive minds seek self medication through drugs and also produce great art. But you should not necessarily attribute the art to the drugs. Hence term fuel, they help exaggerate thought processes . I am sure lack of sleep , a highly stimulated mind helps process those abstract vivid images hence drug free minds can't process, comprehend some of the work. Also explains the large amounts of work produced in all cases . |
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No one is ever buying this...maybe look around for new casinos being built and ask them??? Dunno
