dynamixx
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August 2006
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by dynamixx on Mar 25, 2009 3:25:12 GMT 1, I'm afraid you're very wrong. before the Abstract Expressionists hit their strides, the US was considered backward when compared to the European artistic centers, especially Paris. I don't understand why you've said he is very wrong.
US art didn't start to get good from Pollock onwards, dig a little deeper. American Modernism flourished in the first few decades of the 20th C, New York was home to a whole host of pioneering artists and painters, virtually on a par with Europe.
American modern art found its feet decades before Abstract Expressionism. Before that, some truly pioneering art came out of the US. Georgia O'Keeffe, Charles Sheeler, Charles Demuth, the Stieglitz circle in general, I could go on, so I will. The Harlem Renaissance and Aaron Douglas, who gave us some truly breathtaking and groundbreaking images before AE. It's not just me who rates the significant place in art history of each of these artists.
Even if the conventional narrative says France was the epicentre of modern art in the early 20th century, to hear the American side of things referred to as backwards is ridiculous. In fact I'd be interested if you could point me towards who exactly is considering it such?
I'm afraid you're very wrong. before the Abstract Expressionists hit their strides, the US was considered backward when compared to the European artistic centers, especially Paris. I don't understand why you've said he is very wrong. US art didn't start to get good from Pollock onwards, dig a little deeper. American Modernism flourished in the first few decades of the 20th C, New York was home to a whole host of pioneering artists and painters, virtually on a par with Europe. American modern art found its feet decades before Abstract Expressionism. Before that, some truly pioneering art came out of the US. Georgia O'Keeffe, Charles Sheeler, Charles Demuth, the Stieglitz circle in general, I could go on, so I will. The Harlem Renaissance and Aaron Douglas, who gave us some truly breathtaking and groundbreaking images before AE. It's not just me who rates the significant place in art history of each of these artists. Even if the conventional narrative says France was the epicentre of modern art in the early 20th century, to hear the American side of things referred to as backwards is ridiculous. In fact I'd be interested if you could point me towards who exactly is considering it such? |
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lee3
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November 2009
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by lee3 on Mar 25, 2009 3:40:34 GMT 1, >>>I wonder if the seller has any early Pollocks?<<<<
These are more affordable than one might believe. Early in Pollock's career as I'm sure many here are aware he was heavily consumed and overcome by Picasso. His early stuff (late 30s and early 40s) is just dominated with Picasso influences and like an idiot I stand by and watch these pieces come and go at auction. These works on paper come up at auction once a year or so and are very detailed and intricate works in magnificent condition measuring roughly 8x10 inches will run $25-50k. They are certainly atypical as they have nothing to do with the drip paintings yet they are still mesmerizing (at least to me). There were a pair of these offered last September at what I believed were teaser rates (as similar compositions had sold in that range 3 or 4 years prior) and yet they happened to sell at the low end of the estimate range and there i was kicking myself for having not submitted an absentee bid. Given the weakness of the art market since then, it's not out of the imagination to believe you could get a nice work on paper for $20k and while that is outrageous to most people, it is affordable by his standards. Unlike most atypical work for A list artists, I find these quite compelling.
>>>I wonder if the seller has any early Pollocks?<<<<
These are more affordable than one might believe. Early in Pollock's career as I'm sure many here are aware he was heavily consumed and overcome by Picasso. His early stuff (late 30s and early 40s) is just dominated with Picasso influences and like an idiot I stand by and watch these pieces come and go at auction. These works on paper come up at auction once a year or so and are very detailed and intricate works in magnificent condition measuring roughly 8x10 inches will run $25-50k. They are certainly atypical as they have nothing to do with the drip paintings yet they are still mesmerizing (at least to me). There were a pair of these offered last September at what I believed were teaser rates (as similar compositions had sold in that range 3 or 4 years prior) and yet they happened to sell at the low end of the estimate range and there i was kicking myself for having not submitted an absentee bid. Given the weakness of the art market since then, it's not out of the imagination to believe you could get a nice work on paper for $20k and while that is outrageous to most people, it is affordable by his standards. Unlike most atypical work for A list artists, I find these quite compelling.
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by Gentle Mental on Mar 25, 2009 3:56:08 GMT 1, Time will give us better perspective. We're all in the moment, and we can only judge without the benefit of hindsight.
Factor in the world we're living in, and the grounds that have been broken - i have a sinking suspicion that Banksy is already bigger artist than Basquiat.
He's just not as important. Yet.
Time will give us better perspective. We're all in the moment, and we can only judge without the benefit of hindsight.
Factor in the world we're living in, and the grounds that have been broken - i have a sinking suspicion that Banksy is already bigger artist than Basquiat.
He's just not as important. Yet.
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by mose on Mar 25, 2009 5:29:04 GMT 1, Even if the conventional narrative says France was the epicentre of modern art in the early 20th century, to hear the American side of things referred to as backwards is ridiculous. In fact I'd be interested if you could point me towards who exactly is considering it such?
sure. read any textbook on Pollock, any textbook on Abstract Expressionism as a movement, watch any documentary on Pollock and the New York establishment, etc., etc.
Two quick quotes, via "Abstract Expressionism" by Joan M. Marter:
"Abstract Expressionism has traditionally been seen as America's first art of international significance."
"According to virtually every history of these artists(the abstract expressionists), American artistic culture was mostly in a backward state at that time."
now, it must be noted she goes on to argue the opposite.
Given 15 minutes, I could probably fill the post with 100's of similar quotes from a variety of art texts, all pointing to the backward state of American art prior to the Abstract Expressionists, how they moved the cultural epicenter from Paris to New York, how 1930's America was an artistic wasteland, how provincial American art had been prior to the New York crew, etc. etc.
It is not ridiculous, it is the generally accepted narrative.
Even if the conventional narrative says France was the epicentre of modern art in the early 20th century, to hear the American side of things referred to as backwards is ridiculous. In fact I'd be interested if you could point me towards who exactly is considering it such? sure. read any textbook on Pollock, any textbook on Abstract Expressionism as a movement, watch any documentary on Pollock and the New York establishment, etc., etc. Two quick quotes, via "Abstract Expressionism" by Joan M. Marter: "Abstract Expressionism has traditionally been seen as America's first art of international significance." "According to virtually every history of these artists(the abstract expressionists), American artistic culture was mostly in a backward state at that time." now, it must be noted she goes on to argue the opposite. Given 15 minutes, I could probably fill the post with 100's of similar quotes from a variety of art texts, all pointing to the backward state of American art prior to the Abstract Expressionists, how they moved the cultural epicenter from Paris to New York, how 1930's America was an artistic wasteland, how provincial American art had been prior to the New York crew, etc. etc. It is not ridiculous, it is the generally accepted narrative. |
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by wiz on Mar 25, 2009 9:45:34 GMT 1, Cheers Lee  .
Cheers Lee . |
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by thegreatarchitect on Mar 25, 2009 14:34:05 GMT 1, I am going to take this in a different direction. talent and such aside. can an anonymous person ever reach lasting international fame? You can see vidoeos of the other modern artists creating, representing, explaining, etc their work. sure part of Banksy's fame came from the mystery but at some point that has to turn against him. i am personally amazed people will spend such vast sums of money on banksy's work when you really have no idea about the creator. i love banksy's work .. dont get me wrong but i dont know if it has the lasting power and value of other artists that have organized their work differently. going to fly way out on a limb with this one.. but not sure how many milli vanilli fans there were at one point.. i know there were a LOT fewer when the truth came out. what if half of these banksy's were created by different people? what if there isnt an individual 'banksy' pumping out ideas but there are many collaborators. it doesnt mean the work isnt really cool.. but certainly impacts the lasting power and value in my mind. i would sure want to know those answers before dropping 50k on an original banksy. in other words - people on here want air tight provenance from the printer.. but you dont have the slightest clue of the provenance of the creator. This has to impact things over time.
You make a valid point The enigma the surrounds Banksy could hide somewhere in there more than one person. I've often thought that without a face it could later effect the value and merit of the work.
I am going to take this in a different direction. talent and such aside. can an anonymous person ever reach lasting international fame? You can see vidoeos of the other modern artists creating, representing, explaining, etc their work. sure part of Banksy's fame came from the mystery but at some point that has to turn against him. i am personally amazed people will spend such vast sums of money on banksy's work when you really have no idea about the creator. i love banksy's work .. dont get me wrong but i dont know if it has the lasting power and value of other artists that have organized their work differently. going to fly way out on a limb with this one.. but not sure how many milli vanilli fans there were at one point.. i know there were a LOT fewer when the truth came out. what if half of these banksy's were created by different people? what if there isnt an individual 'banksy' pumping out ideas but there are many collaborators. it doesnt mean the work isnt really cool.. but certainly impacts the lasting power and value in my mind. i would sure want to know those answers before dropping 50k on an original banksy. in other words - people on here want air tight provenance from the printer.. but you dont have the slightest clue of the provenance of the creator. This has to impact things over time. You make a valid point The enigma the surrounds Banksy could hide somewhere in there more than one person. I've often thought that without a face it could later effect the value and merit of the work. |
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by thegreatarchitect on Mar 25, 2009 15:00:57 GMT 1, No sputnikeye,The American expressionist movement would never have happened if it wasn't for many of the great European artists flocking their after WWII. America was regarded as a backward nation when it came to art at the time I'm afraid you're very wrong.
You say that but you give no evidence in support of your responce
America before the arrival of the Great European Artists had an art that stretched no further than the dark ages. skirting round the darts in St Sebastian they came up with little more than a couple punting on the river, landscapes Victorian in concept where the focus of attention was on a young girl holding an umbrella. Name me one America artist from that period ?
My point was that under MC Cathy European intellectuals(namely the artists that fled there) were terrorized and accused along with others of being responsible for the modernist conspiracy and that it was a communist plot. But when the CIA hijacked the abstract expressionistic movement during the cold war for the purpose of opposing Eastern Bloc Communism they held up Pollock as their golden child, and no mention was made of the European influence.
No sputnikeye,The American expressionist movement would never have happened if it wasn't for many of the great European artists flocking their after WWII. America was regarded as a backward nation when it came to art at the time I'm afraid you're very wrong. You say that but you give no evidence in support of your responce America before the arrival of the Great European Artists had an art that stretched no further than the dark ages. skirting round the darts in St Sebastian they came up with little more than a couple punting on the river, landscapes Victorian in concept where the focus of attention was on a young girl holding an umbrella. Name me one America artist from that period ? My point was that under MC Cathy European intellectuals(namely the artists that fled there) were terrorized and accused along with others of being responsible for the modernist conspiracy and that it was a communist plot. But when the CIA hijacked the abstract expressionistic movement during the cold war for the purpose of opposing Eastern Bloc Communism they held up Pollock as their golden child, and no mention was made of the European influence. |
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by thegreatarchitect on Mar 25, 2009 15:06:56 GMT 1, I'm afraid you're very wrong. lol ;D
Lazurus along with Basquiat is dead geez
I'm afraid you're very wrong. lol ;D Lazurus along with Basquiat is dead geez |
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dynamixx
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by dynamixx on Mar 25, 2009 16:24:40 GMT 1, Even if the conventional narrative says France was the epicentre of modern art in the early 20th century, to hear the American side of things referred to as backwards is ridiculous. In fact I'd be interested if you could point me towards who exactly is considering it such? sure. read any textbook on Pollock, any textbook on Abstract Expressionism as a movement, watch any documentary on Pollock and the New York establishment, etc., etc. Two quick quotes, via "Abstract Expressionism" by Joan M. Marter: "Abstract Expressionism has traditionally been seen as America's first art of international significance." "According to virtually every history of these artists(the abstract expressionists), American artistic culture was mostly in a backward state at that time." now, it must be noted she goes on to argue the opposite. Given 15 minutes, I could probably fill the post with 100's of similar quotes from a variety of art texts, all pointing to the backward state of American art prior to the Abstract Expressionists, how they moved the cultural epicenter from Paris to New York, how 1930's America was an artistic wasteland, how provincial American art had been prior to the New York crew, etc. etc. It is not ridiculous, it is the generally accepted narrative.
You did sort of skip over and edit out the first part of my post there, wonder if you read it? Hint:the bit you didn't quote was the important part.
I'd love to have a debate with any writer blinkered enough to describe American Modernism as backwards. I'd only need images in my supporting case, words would be rendered too easy.
1000 supporting opinions with vested financial and academic interests doesn't make for absolute truth. Too many lazy art historians skip over the pre-abstract expressionist US movements, because the idea that America was creating incredibly progressive modern abstraction way before Pollock doesn't fit in with their simplistic and cosy timeline. And would only play down AE's radicalism, and we can't be having that, risking the top end pricing of the accepted big guns, or worse still having a less prolific artist pushed into the limelight (what would get sold then?).
Question everything you read.
Even if the conventional narrative says France was the epicentre of modern art in the early 20th century, to hear the American side of things referred to as backwards is ridiculous. In fact I'd be interested if you could point me towards who exactly is considering it such? sure. read any textbook on Pollock, any textbook on Abstract Expressionism as a movement, watch any documentary on Pollock and the New York establishment, etc., etc. Two quick quotes, via "Abstract Expressionism" by Joan M. Marter: "Abstract Expressionism has traditionally been seen as America's first art of international significance." "According to virtually every history of these artists(the abstract expressionists), American artistic culture was mostly in a backward state at that time." now, it must be noted she goes on to argue the opposite. Given 15 minutes, I could probably fill the post with 100's of similar quotes from a variety of art texts, all pointing to the backward state of American art prior to the Abstract Expressionists, how they moved the cultural epicenter from Paris to New York, how 1930's America was an artistic wasteland, how provincial American art had been prior to the New York crew, etc. etc. It is not ridiculous, it is the generally accepted narrative. You did sort of skip over and edit out the first part of my post there, wonder if you read it? Hint:the bit you didn't quote was the important part. I'd love to have a debate with any writer blinkered enough to describe American Modernism as backwards. I'd only need images in my supporting case, words would be rendered too easy. 1000 supporting opinions with vested financial and academic interests doesn't make for absolute truth. Too many lazy art historians skip over the pre-abstract expressionist US movements, because the idea that America was creating incredibly progressive modern abstraction way before Pollock doesn't fit in with their simplistic and cosy timeline. And would only play down AE's radicalism, and we can't be having that, risking the top end pricing of the accepted big guns, or worse still having a less prolific artist pushed into the limelight (what would get sold then?). Question everything you read. |
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Francis
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by Francis on Mar 25, 2009 19:03:41 GMT 1, I can't believe no one has brought up the conspiracy theory that Basquiat faked his own death to artificially affect his legacy and prices.
Alternatively, Banksy will forever have fresh ideas and works because "he" is always coming up with new ideas from a collective of members.
I can't believe no one has brought up the conspiracy theory that Basquiat faked his own death to artificially affect his legacy and prices.
Alternatively, Banksy will forever have fresh ideas and works because "he" is always coming up with new ideas from a collective of members.
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jamesreeve5
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September 2012
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by jamesreeve5 on Mar 25, 2009 19:38:21 GMT 1, You did sort of skip over and edit out the first part of my post there, wonder if you read it? Hint:the bit you didn't quote was the important part. I'd love to have a debate with any writer blinkered enough to describe American Modernism as backwards. I'd only need images in my supporting case, words would be rendered too easy. 1000 supporting opinions with vested financial and academic interests doesn't make for absolute truth. Too many lazy art historians skip over the pre-abstract expressionist US movements, because the idea that America was creating incredibly progressive modern abstraction way before Pollock doesn't fit in with their simplistic and cosy timeline. And would only play down AE's radicalism, and we can't be having that, risking the top end pricing of the accepted big guns, or worse still having a less prolific artist pushed into the limelight (what would get sold then?). Question everything you read.
I don't think they are lazy, nor is their some conspiracy against them. We as humans tend to want to organize things in a comprehensible way, and by agreeing that within the MAIN TIMELINE of art history in this world, it is easiest to say that the epicenter of art moved from Paris to New York because of the Abstract expressionist movement.
Now I am not meaning to overlook Hopper, O'Keefe, or any of the Ashcan School etc etc, but most of those artists are not studied, appreciated, or exhibited on a global level. Instead, the majority of their major works are housed in American museums, the majority of their collectors are American patrons, and the people that tend to study them are American scholars. Now they certainly aren't a "backwards little bunch" like someone on here described earlier, because they are no more backwards then what was coming out of England at the time because Paris was putting out artists that were better than anyone else.
If anyone should be mad at being "overlooked" by art historians it should be Germany, whose artists were often as innovative as their Parisian counterparts.
You did sort of skip over and edit out the first part of my post there, wonder if you read it? Hint:the bit you didn't quote was the important part. I'd love to have a debate with any writer blinkered enough to describe American Modernism as backwards. I'd only need images in my supporting case, words would be rendered too easy. 1000 supporting opinions with vested financial and academic interests doesn't make for absolute truth. Too many lazy art historians skip over the pre-abstract expressionist US movements, because the idea that America was creating incredibly progressive modern abstraction way before Pollock doesn't fit in with their simplistic and cosy timeline. And would only play down AE's radicalism, and we can't be having that, risking the top end pricing of the accepted big guns, or worse still having a less prolific artist pushed into the limelight (what would get sold then?). Question everything you read. I don't think they are lazy, nor is their some conspiracy against them. We as humans tend to want to organize things in a comprehensible way, and by agreeing that within the MAIN TIMELINE of art history in this world, it is easiest to say that the epicenter of art moved from Paris to New York because of the Abstract expressionist movement. Now I am not meaning to overlook Hopper, O'Keefe, or any of the Ashcan School etc etc, but most of those artists are not studied, appreciated, or exhibited on a global level. Instead, the majority of their major works are housed in American museums, the majority of their collectors are American patrons, and the people that tend to study them are American scholars. Now they certainly aren't a "backwards little bunch" like someone on here described earlier, because they are no more backwards then what was coming out of England at the time because Paris was putting out artists that were better than anyone else. If anyone should be mad at being "overlooked" by art historians it should be Germany, whose artists were often as innovative as their Parisian counterparts. |
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by thegreatarchitect on Mar 26, 2009 12:09:47 GMT 1, Hopper and O'Keeffe may have been regarded as pioneers of American modernism but both were heavily influence by European art. Hooper said this about his work after visiting Paris several times during the early 1900s Although he took typical American subject matter, the French impressionists clearly influenced his composition and focus on light and O'Keeffe's exposure to the European avant garde thought Stieglitz a photographer and importer of European art again clearly show the European impact on her early work too. I still maintain that Without the exposure and impact of European art America was undoubtedly retarded having no clear concepts of their own
Hopper and O'Keeffe may have been regarded as pioneers of American modernism but both were heavily influence by European art. Hooper said this about his work after visiting Paris several times during the early 1900s Although he took typical American subject matter, the French impressionists clearly influenced his composition and focus on light and O'Keeffe's exposure to the European avant garde thought Stieglitz a photographer and importer of European art again clearly show the European impact on her early work too. I still maintain that Without the exposure and impact of European art America was undoubtedly retarded having no clear concepts of their own
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by thegreatarchitect on Mar 26, 2009 12:26:52 GMT 1, I can't believe no one has brought up the conspiracy theory that Basquiat faked his own death to artificially affect his legacy and prices. Alternatively, Banksy will forever have fresh ideas and works because "he" is always coming up with new ideas from a collective of members.[/quote Never heard that Basquiat faked his own death, could you explain more?]
I can't believe no one has brought up the conspiracy theory that Basquiat faked his own death to artificially affect his legacy and prices. Alternatively, Banksy will forever have fresh ideas and works because "he" is always coming up with new ideas from a collective of members.[/quote Never heard that Basquiat faked his own death, could you explain more?] |
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sfdoddsy
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August 2008
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by sfdoddsy on Mar 26, 2009 12:41:49 GMT 1, I think the immediate post-war European artists like Dubuffet and the Cobra collective (Karel Appel, Asger Jorn etc) were a bigger inspiration than the pre-war chaps like Ernst.
Dubuffet and especially the Cobra artists emphasized spontaneity and painting without thinking as a reaction to the formalism of much pre-war art.
I love Appel's quote:
"my tube is like a rocket, which describes its own space"
If you look at their immediate post-war work, there isn't a massive leap to the drip paintings and thence back and forwards inspiring each other.
I think the immediate post-war European artists like Dubuffet and the Cobra collective (Karel Appel, Asger Jorn etc) were a bigger inspiration than the pre-war chaps like Ernst.
Dubuffet and especially the Cobra artists emphasized spontaneity and painting without thinking as a reaction to the formalism of much pre-war art.
I love Appel's quote:
"my tube is like a rocket, which describes its own space"
If you look at their immediate post-war work, there isn't a massive leap to the drip paintings and thence back and forwards inspiring each other.
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dynamixx
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August 2006
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by dynamixx on Mar 26, 2009 12:58:43 GMT 1, Hopper and O'Keeffe may have been regarded as pioneers of American modernism but both were heavily influence by European art. Hooper said this about his work after visiting Paris several times during the early 1900s Although he took typical American subject matter, the French impressionists clearly influenced his composition and focus on light
I'm going to bite.
When it comes to light, Hopper was in a league of his own, the French impressionists are irrelevant, unless you're using them to illustrate how different and progressive he was? Honestly, just take a look at a Hopper painting, and compare it to say a Monet (the leading light of French Impressionism is as good a place to start as any), and explain how Hopper's composition was influenced by this in any way? They're absolutely worlds apart. I'll even give you a clue why you're wrong, think size of brush strokes.
And Hopper's just one example of progressive American modernism.
I'm biting my tongue here.
No-one's questioning that Europe had a big influence on many American modernists. It's what they did with that inspiration that made it progressive, different and original.
You have a very Euro-centric view of art my friend. Look further afield and you might be suprised by the originality, strength and frankly sheer brilliance of art produced thousands of miles from Paris in the first few decades of the 20th century.
Hopper and O'Keeffe may have been regarded as pioneers of American modernism but both were heavily influence by European art. Hooper said this about his work after visiting Paris several times during the early 1900s Although he took typical American subject matter, the French impressionists clearly influenced his composition and focus on light I'm going to bite. When it comes to light, Hopper was in a league of his own, the French impressionists are irrelevant, unless you're using them to illustrate how different and progressive he was? Honestly, just take a look at a Hopper painting, and compare it to say a Monet (the leading light of French Impressionism is as good a place to start as any), and explain how Hopper's composition was influenced by this in any way? They're absolutely worlds apart. I'll even give you a clue why you're wrong, think size of brush strokes. And Hopper's just one example of progressive American modernism. I'm biting my tongue here. No-one's questioning that Europe had a big influence on many American modernists. It's what they did with that inspiration that made it progressive, different and original. You have a very Euro-centric view of art my friend. Look further afield and you might be suprised by the originality, strength and frankly sheer brilliance of art produced thousands of miles from Paris in the first few decades of the 20th century. |
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by thegreatarchitect on Mar 26, 2009 18:18:09 GMT 1, Hopper and O'Keeffe may have been regarded as pioneers of American modernism but both were heavily influence by European art. Hooper said this about his work after visiting Paris several times during the early 1900s Although he took typical American subject matter, the French impressionists clearly influenced his composition and focus on light I'm going to bite. When it comes to light, Hopper was in a league of his own, the French impressionists are irrelevant, unless you're using them to illustrate how different and progressive he was? Honestly, just take a look at a Hopper painting, and compare it to say a Monet (the leading light of French Impressionism is as good a place to start as any), and explain how Hopper's composition was influenced by this in any way? They're absolutely worlds apart. I'll even give you a clue why you're wrong, think size of brush strokes. And Hopper's just one example of progressive American modernism. I'm biting my tongue here. No-one's questioning that Europe had a big influence on many American modernists. It's what they did with that inspiration that made it progressive, different and original. You have a very Euro-centric view of art my friend. Look further afield and you might be suprised by the originality, strength and frankly sheer brilliance of art produced thousands of miles from Paris in the first few decades of the 20th century.
My original point was That under the McCarthy Witch hunts of the 50s many European artists were terrorized and accused of a communist conspiracy designed to corrupt, subvert and undermine ''American Democracy'' but then there's the U turn by the CIA and this new art so heavily influenced by so many European artists becomes their brainchild, a symbol of the all American dream no further mention is made of the European input. Have you ever heard of Hollywood DADA? it comes much later than the Zurich version
Hopper and O'Keeffe may have been regarded as pioneers of American modernism but both were heavily influence by European art. Hooper said this about his work after visiting Paris several times during the early 1900s Although he took typical American subject matter, the French impressionists clearly influenced his composition and focus on light I'm going to bite. When it comes to light, Hopper was in a league of his own, the French impressionists are irrelevant, unless you're using them to illustrate how different and progressive he was? Honestly, just take a look at a Hopper painting, and compare it to say a Monet (the leading light of French Impressionism is as good a place to start as any), and explain how Hopper's composition was influenced by this in any way? They're absolutely worlds apart. I'll even give you a clue why you're wrong, think size of brush strokes. And Hopper's just one example of progressive American modernism. I'm biting my tongue here. No-one's questioning that Europe had a big influence on many American modernists. It's what they did with that inspiration that made it progressive, different and original. You have a very Euro-centric view of art my friend. Look further afield and you might be suprised by the originality, strength and frankly sheer brilliance of art produced thousands of miles from Paris in the first few decades of the 20th century. My original point was That under the McCarthy Witch hunts of the 50s many European artists were terrorized and accused of a communist conspiracy designed to corrupt, subvert and undermine ''American Democracy'' but then there's the U turn by the CIA and this new art so heavily influenced by so many European artists becomes their brainchild, a symbol of the all American dream no further mention is made of the European input. Have you ever heard of Hollywood DADA? it comes much later than the Zurich version |
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by thegreatarchitect on Mar 26, 2009 18:31:58 GMT 1, I think the immediate post-war European artists like Dubuffet and the Cobra collective (Karel Appel, Asger Jorn etc) were a bigger inspiration than the pre-war chaps like Ernst. Dubuffet and especially the Cobra artists emphasized spontaneity and painting without thinking as a reaction to the formalism of much pre-war art. I love Appel's quote: "my tube is like a rocket, which describes its own space" If you look at their immediate post-war work, there isn't a massive leap to the drip paintings and thence back and forwards inspiring each other.
Appeal Quote 1947
Art is the process of transforming the objectivity of a given object into a subjectively internally given one. it leaves the object in limbo where the Adult (Freudian) can see it as Representative of either the objective external world or of the subjective internal world. Adults force an intelligibility on to the object that it does not have because they cannot tolerate the fact that there is no such thing as an unequivocally objective world unlike the child the adult cannot embrace the truth.
Artists like Dubuffet and Appel did indeed have a massive influence on Empire building politics of American democracy
I think the immediate post-war European artists like Dubuffet and the Cobra collective (Karel Appel, Asger Jorn etc) were a bigger inspiration than the pre-war chaps like Ernst. Dubuffet and especially the Cobra artists emphasized spontaneity and painting without thinking as a reaction to the formalism of much pre-war art. I love Appel's quote: "my tube is like a rocket, which describes its own space" If you look at their immediate post-war work, there isn't a massive leap to the drip paintings and thence back and forwards inspiring each other. Appeal Quote 1947 Art is the process of transforming the objectivity of a given object into a subjectively internally given one. it leaves the object in limbo where the Adult (Freudian) can see it as Representative of either the objective external world or of the subjective internal world. Adults force an intelligibility on to the object that it does not have because they cannot tolerate the fact that there is no such thing as an unequivocally objective world unlike the child the adult cannot embrace the truth. Artists like Dubuffet and Appel did indeed have a massive influence on Empire building politics of American democracy |
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jamesreeve5
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September 2012
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by jamesreeve5 on Mar 26, 2009 20:55:04 GMT 1, My original point was That under the McCarthy Witch hunts of the 50s many European artists were terrorized and accused of a communist conspiracy designed to corrupt, subvert and undermine ''American Democracy'' but then there's the U turn by the CIA and this new art so heavily influenced by so many European artists becomes their brainchild, a symbol of the all American dream no further mention is made of the European input. Have you ever heard of Hollywood DADA? it comes much later than the Zurich version
er... you have a bit of a skewed view here architect... to say that just because something was started somewhere, like Dadaism in Zurich, doesn't mean that the best and brightest of it can't happen somewhere else. Marcel Duchamp might be French by birth, but he was a New Yorker at heart. Richard Hamilton might have given us the first taste of Pop art, but Andy Warhol defines the genre...
Their is too much black and white in your timeline and not enough gray. To say that an artist is ripping off somebody else just because they happen to find their work influential is a bit harsh (even misguided), everything is foundational towards something else, and we build on what came before us.
But if this is your thinking, then I have some Blek le Rat prints I'd gladly trade you evenly print for pint for some Banksys if you have them. just give me a PM.
My original point was That under the McCarthy Witch hunts of the 50s many European artists were terrorized and accused of a communist conspiracy designed to corrupt, subvert and undermine ''American Democracy'' but then there's the U turn by the CIA and this new art so heavily influenced by so many European artists becomes their brainchild, a symbol of the all American dream no further mention is made of the European input. Have you ever heard of Hollywood DADA? it comes much later than the Zurich version er... you have a bit of a skewed view here architect... to say that just because something was started somewhere, like Dadaism in Zurich, doesn't mean that the best and brightest of it can't happen somewhere else. Marcel Duchamp might be French by birth, but he was a New Yorker at heart. Richard Hamilton might have given us the first taste of Pop art, but Andy Warhol defines the genre... Their is too much black and white in your timeline and not enough gray. To say that an artist is ripping off somebody else just because they happen to find their work influential is a bit harsh (even misguided), everything is foundational towards something else, and we build on what came before us. But if this is your thinking, then I have some Blek le Rat prints I'd gladly trade you evenly print for pint for some Banksys if you have them. just give me a PM. |
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by thegreatarchitect on Mar 27, 2009 11:48:42 GMT 1, You make a fair point James and it would be foolish of me to say that the Americans have not dominated the latter half of the 20th century with monumental artworks equal to that of any European art, but it was through European art that America got its foot in the door . George Segal was a secondary figure until he was accorded cutting edge status by the French. Arman's discarded accumulations of consumer wastage was a direct ''BORROW''from the Nouveaux Realists, and i could go on giving countless references right the back to the Mayflowers departure from Europe in 1620
You make a fair point James and it would be foolish of me to say that the Americans have not dominated the latter half of the 20th century with monumental artworks equal to that of any European art, but it was through European art that America got its foot in the door . George Segal was a secondary figure until he was accorded cutting edge status by the French. Arman's discarded accumulations of consumer wastage was a direct ''BORROW''from the Nouveaux Realists, and i could go on giving countless references right the back to the Mayflowers departure from Europe in 1620
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gbh
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May 2006
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weeble
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April 2007
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by weeble on Apr 23, 2009 11:36:14 GMT 1, very nice!  what price do you reckon?
very nice! what price do you reckon? |
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by Gentle Mental on Apr 23, 2009 11:49:23 GMT 1, it's only 611,850 yen. and it's sold out. a bargain in my books.
makes a signed banksy or a hirst look ridiculously overpriced.
it's only 611,850 yen. and it's sold out. a bargain in my books.
makes a signed banksy or a hirst look ridiculously overpriced.
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by thegreatarchitect on Apr 23, 2009 13:43:05 GMT 1, completely underrated artist IMO although there is a lot of bad examples of his work At his best he is unsurpassed
completely underrated artist IMO although there is a lot of bad examples of his work At his best he is unsurpassed
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daveart
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 940
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February 2008
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by daveart on Apr 23, 2009 14:06:36 GMT 1, (i had posted some of this before)
After Basquiat's death his estate - controlled by his father - issued two sets of prints based on paintings Basquiat had held in his personal collection. so these are signed by his father as representative of the Basquiat estate.
The first edition was of four prints and the second edition a few years later was also comprised of four prints.
here is a link to see all eight. not recommending this source for purchase.. they just have a nice page that shows all eight in one spot.
www.hamiltonselway.com/basquiat/
These were available for around $10,000 a few years back and into the $30,000 range during the big run up of the last few years. I have seen them now and again lately in the below $15,000.
There is currently a set of four for sale on ebay.
(i had posted some of this before) After Basquiat's death his estate - controlled by his father - issued two sets of prints based on paintings Basquiat had held in his personal collection. so these are signed by his father as representative of the Basquiat estate. The first edition was of four prints and the second edition a few years later was also comprised of four prints. here is a link to see all eight. not recommending this source for purchase.. they just have a nice page that shows all eight in one spot. www.hamiltonselway.com/basquiat/These were available for around $10,000 a few years back and into the $30,000 range during the big run up of the last few years. I have seen them now and again lately in the below $15,000. There is currently a set of four for sale on ebay. |
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lobster
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 575
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December 2008
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by lobster on Aug 16, 2009 18:54:36 GMT 1, Looking for prints from the "After Jean Michel Basquiat" series or possibly "Back of the Neck".
Happy to pay cash / collect London / M25 / Home counties.
Many thanks indeed
nick325583@btinternet.com
Looking for prints from the "After Jean Michel Basquiat" series or possibly "Back of the Neck".
Happy to pay cash / collect London / M25 / Home counties.
Many thanks indeed
nick325583@btinternet.com
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Inoperable
Art Gallery
New Member
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January 2010
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by Inoperable on Jan 22, 2010 16:29:52 GMT 1, I believe this question will soon be answered. A big art institution plans to open a show under the working title of "From Basquiat to Banksy"
Not to say that art institutions decide what is and what isnt but still interesting...
I believe this question will soon be answered. A big art institution plans to open a show under the working title of "From Basquiat to Banksy"
Not to say that art institutions decide what is and what isnt but still interesting...
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Collection 1
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,766
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April 2009
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by Collection 1 on Jun 13, 2011 16:49:42 GMT 1, hello, I have for sale a Jean-Michel Basquiat signed book ed.1000
Kรผsnacht/Zurich, Edition Gallery Bruno Bischofberger, 1985, 1985. Kรผsnacht/Zurich, Edition Gallery Bruno Bischofberger, 1985. Red cloth-covered boards (hardcover) with illustrated dustjacket (in protective mylar), 30 x 26,7 cms., unpag. (28) pp. with color plates + one fold-out. From an edition of 1000 numbered and signed (in ink) copies by Basquiat.
looking for 1880 gbp ono.
Also looking for part (Banksy) trade/Cash
hello, I have for sale a Jean-Michel Basquiat signed book ed.1000 Kรผsnacht/Zurich, Edition Gallery Bruno Bischofberger, 1985, 1985. Kรผsnacht/Zurich, Edition Gallery Bruno Bischofberger, 1985. Red cloth-covered boards (hardcover) with illustrated dustjacket (in protective mylar), 30 x 26,7 cms., unpag. (28) pp. with color plates + one fold-out. From an edition of 1000 numbered and signed (in ink) copies by Basquiat. looking for 1880 gbp ono. Also looking for part (Banksy) trade/Cash |
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rinaceirde
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 613
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April 2010
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by rinaceirde on Jun 13, 2011 17:00:24 GMT 1, Very nice not something you come across everyday.
Very nice not something you come across everyday.
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Jean-Michel Basquiat ๐บ๐ธ Brooklyn, New York โข Graffiti Art , by bazzj04 on Jun 13, 2011 17:03:04 GMT 1, WOOOZER
WOOOZER
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what price do you reckon?
