Gunny
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,605
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July 2012
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by Gunny on Dec 14, 2017 10:36:28 GMT 1, This is a far greater piece than the watchtowers, its big at 60cm and with the big rope this is a very impressive piece indeed
This is a far greater piece than the watchtowers, its big at 60cm and with the big rope this is a very impressive piece indeed
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Morfx
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,873
๐๐ป 3,100
May 2013
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by Morfx on Dec 14, 2017 10:39:13 GMT 1, If i won, and I could afford it it would stay on my wall... Great piece
If i won, and I could afford it it would stay on my wall... Great piece
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aumi
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 340
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November 2014
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by aumi on Dec 14, 2017 10:40:02 GMT 1, Buy what you love
Buy what you love
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p4ryd
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 107
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July 2015
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by p4ryd on Dec 14, 2017 10:45:11 GMT 1, When putting your name down did you know it was going to cost 40k? If you did then you probably already had intentions of buying? Do you already own a house? Whether you do or don't, wouldn't you have used the 40K to buy a(nother) house already. I would compare this to buying a car. If you can afford it and want it, buy it to enjoy it and don't think about cost/depreciation. then again I don't have ยฃ40 to blow let alone 40k.
When putting your name down did you know it was going to cost 40k? If you did then you probably already had intentions of buying? Do you already own a house? Whether you do or don't, wouldn't you have used the 40K to buy a(nother) house already. I would compare this to buying a car. If you can afford it and want it, buy it to enjoy it and don't think about cost/depreciation. then again I don't have ยฃ40 to blow let alone 40k.
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Fake
Artist
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,376
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July 2008
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by Fake on Dec 14, 2017 10:51:25 GMT 1, You can buy a house for 40K where you live?
You can buy a house for 40K where you live?
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nottheway
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 68
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January 2013
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by nottheway on Dec 14, 2017 10:55:59 GMT 1, 40k house in Bethlehem? at least 80k easy tho...
40k house in Bethlehem? at least 80k easy tho...
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skAcid
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 862
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October 2017
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by skAcid on Dec 14, 2017 10:56:48 GMT 1, Rich mans toy
Rich mans toy
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bone
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 416
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September 2013
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by bone on Dec 14, 2017 11:07:11 GMT 1, Iโm interested if you are not , Pm me
Iโm interested if you are not , Pm me
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by Coach on Dec 14, 2017 11:07:54 GMT 1, Fascinating decision. Thank you for sharing this. My natural instinct would be to say 'no' unless you line up a buyer before putting the money down, take a hefty deposit from them, have a written contract outlining payment terms and the handling of the Pest Control COA, and get a handsome commission given the hassle/risk involved.ย It's gotta be worth it. I look at something like this as a trap. It beckons you in 'look, a rare Banksy, oh buy me' but then, after the glow wears off, several months or years later, you have a pricey item with a very small market. This is niche, very niche and, as a result, will be harder to move and will appreciate slower(or depreciate faster as the case may be) than items with more broad-based appeal(for example, a 'Girl with Balloon' that will easily hang above the sofa). Look at the past history of the Watchtowers from 2007. Does that make you more or less confident? To me, the Banksy print/edition market is a massively overinflated bubble and bubbles pop, making a big mess for everyone caught in 'em.ย Further, I was taught, and have learned hard lessons, that you never buy atypical works.ย EVER.ย Like special edition artist books, the atypical work tends to be a sucker bet.ย This current piece combines both of these and, IMO, rather loudly yells 'pass'.
Well thought out post. I only take exception to the comment - never ever buy atypical art. I suppose it depends what your motivation for buying art is - investment or not. Here I appreciate that you are responding to a direct question from the op about investment, so rest assured this is not a dig. The vast majority of the art that I have collected over 3 decades could early be described as atypical. I love my collection all the more for it. I know a few collectors who bought Banksy canvases for a couple of hundred quid, at a time that they could be decsribed as atypical too. All that having been said, I appreciate that we are talking about ยฃ48k here. Different kettle of fish.
Fascinating decision. Thank you for sharing this. My natural instinct would be to say 'no' unless you line up a buyer before putting the money down, take a hefty deposit from them, have a written contract outlining payment terms and the handling of the Pest Control COA, and get a handsome commission given the hassle/risk involved.ย It's gotta be worth it. I look at something like this as a trap. It beckons you in 'look, a rare Banksy, oh buy me' but then, after the glow wears off, several months or years later, you have a pricey item with a very small market. This is niche, very niche and, as a result, will be harder to move and will appreciate slower(or depreciate faster as the case may be) than items with more broad-based appeal(for example, a 'Girl with Balloon' that will easily hang above the sofa). Look at the past history of the Watchtowers from 2007. Does that make you more or less confident? To me, the Banksy print/edition market is a massively overinflated bubble and bubbles pop, making a big mess for everyone caught in 'em.ย Further, I was taught, and have learned hard lessons, that you never buy atypical works.ย EVER.ย Like special edition artist books, the atypical work tends to be a sucker bet.ย This current piece combines both of these and, IMO, rather loudly yells 'pass'. Well thought out post. I only take exception to the comment - never ever buy atypical art. I suppose it depends what your motivation for buying art is - investment or not. Here I appreciate that you are responding to a direct question from the op about investment, so rest assured this is not a dig. The vast majority of the art that I have collected over 3 decades could early be described as atypical. I love my collection all the more for it. I know a few collectors who bought Banksy canvases for a couple of hundred quid, at a time that they could be decsribed as atypical too. All that having been said, I appreciate that we are talking about ยฃ48k here. Different kettle of fish.
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by Jeezuz Jones Snr on Dec 14, 2017 11:09:20 GMT 1, Wow.. 40k for that? ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ต
Wow.. 40k for that? ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ต
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Fake
Artist
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,376
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July 2008
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by Fake on Dec 14, 2017 11:17:23 GMT 1, Well, the Dumbo prints in an edition of 25 where 35K at source... and this is 40K at source.
If they ship from the UK and you live in the EU there will be no extra taxes for you to pay.
This is a sculpture and very political Banksy! I bet that this piece will be hitting records in auction in a few years.
Well, the Dumbo prints in an edition of 25 where 35K at source... and this is 40K at source.
If they ship from the UK and you live in the EU there will be no extra taxes for you to pay.
This is a sculpture and very political Banksy! I bet that this piece will be hitting records in auction in a few years.
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Chris JL
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,766
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March 2017
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by Chris JL on Dec 14, 2017 11:17:25 GMT 1, If itโs not too much of a stretch for you, go for it. If you donโt want to keep it, in a year time it will almost surely make it worthwhile for you at one of the big auction houses: as others have said, Banksy sculptures are a real rarity.
If itโs not too much of a stretch for you, go for it. If you donโt want to keep it, in a year time it will almost surely make it worthwhile for you at one of the big auction houses: as others have said, Banksy sculptures are a real rarity.
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bjoern
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,293
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September 2014
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by bjoern on Dec 14, 2017 11:18:35 GMT 1, When putting your name down did you know it was going to cost 40k? If you did then you probably already had intentions of buying? Do you already own a house? Whether you do or don't, wouldn't you have used the 40K to buy a(nother) house already. I would compare this to buying a car. If you can afford it and want it, buy it to enjoy it and don't think about cost/depreciation. then again I don't have ยฃ40 to blow let alone 40k. I also signed about for the list in early october and there was no Price mentioned at all.
When putting your name down did you know it was going to cost 40k? If you did then you probably already had intentions of buying? Do you already own a house? Whether you do or don't, wouldn't you have used the 40K to buy a(nother) house already. I would compare this to buying a car. If you can afford it and want it, buy it to enjoy it and don't think about cost/depreciation. then again I don't have ยฃ40 to blow let alone 40k. I also signed about for the list in early october and there was no Price mentioned at all.
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mose
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 410
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May 2017
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by mose on Dec 14, 2017 11:23:36 GMT 1, Fascinating decision. Thank you for sharing this. My natural instinct would be to say 'no' unless you line up a buyer before putting the money down, take a hefty deposit from them, have a written contract outlining payment terms and the handling of the Pest Control COA, and get a handsome commission given the hassle/risk involved. It's gotta be worth it. I look at something like this as a trap. It beckons you in 'look, a rare Banksy, oh buy me' but then, after the glow wears off, several months or years later, you have a pricey item with a very small market. This is niche, very niche and, as a result, will be harder to move and will appreciate slower(or depreciate faster as the case may be) than items with more broad-based appeal(for example, a 'Girl with Balloon' that will easily hang above the sofa). Look at the past history of the Watchtowers from 2007. Does that make you more or less confident? To me, the Banksy print/edition market is a massively overinflated bubble and bubbles pop, making a big mess for everyone caught in 'em. Further, I was taught, and have learned hard lessons, that you never buy atypical works. EVER. Like special edition artist books, the atypical work tends to be a sucker bet. This current piece combines both of these and, IMO, rather loudly yells 'pass'. Well thought out post. I only take exception to the comment - never ever buy atypical art. I suppose it depends what your motivation for buying art is - investment or not. Here I appreciate that you are responding to a direct question from the op about investment, so rest assured this is not a dig. The vast majority of the art that I have collected over 3 decades could early be described as atypical. I love my collection all the more for it. I know a few collectors who bought Banksy canvases for a couple of hundred quid, at a time that they could be decsribed as atypical too. All that having been said, I appreciate that we are talking about ยฃ48k here. Different kettle of fish. I can see what your saying. And, please let me clarify. When I say 'atypical', I mean for the artist. Don't buy paintings from a sculptor(see Koons, Jeff, Fischer, Urs and many more). Don't buy ceramics from a painter. Unless the artist you collect is Sterling Ruby, who has no lane, going out-of-lane is a no-no investment wise. And even then, the market has its preferences for certain types of work.
Banksy, though he has done many, is not primarily known as a sculptor. His market is driven by flat-things-you-can-hang-on-walls. So, a sculpture like this will always be, market-wise, a secondary, tertiary, whatever-the-word-that-means-fourth-level-is work.
40k + VAT/shipping for a fourth-level work?
Me, personally, if I was advising someone I'd say 'sure thing' only if that person was a multi-millionaire who already had prime Banksy works and they were just looking to go really deep. Then, the price wouldn't be a concern and the lesser nature of the piece wouldn't be either. Or, as stated earlier, if I already had a contracted buyer lined up/locked down with COA concerns already worked out, with a good % commission, and was just passing it along.
Edit: Thanks to google, I now know that fourth-level is 'quaternary'.
Fascinating decision. Thank you for sharing this. My natural instinct would be to say 'no' unless you line up a buyer before putting the money down, take a hefty deposit from them, have a written contract outlining payment terms and the handling of the Pest Control COA, and get a handsome commission given the hassle/risk involved. It's gotta be worth it. I look at something like this as a trap. It beckons you in 'look, a rare Banksy, oh buy me' but then, after the glow wears off, several months or years later, you have a pricey item with a very small market. This is niche, very niche and, as a result, will be harder to move and will appreciate slower(or depreciate faster as the case may be) than items with more broad-based appeal(for example, a 'Girl with Balloon' that will easily hang above the sofa). Look at the past history of the Watchtowers from 2007. Does that make you more or less confident? To me, the Banksy print/edition market is a massively overinflated bubble and bubbles pop, making a big mess for everyone caught in 'em. Further, I was taught, and have learned hard lessons, that you never buy atypical works. EVER. Like special edition artist books, the atypical work tends to be a sucker bet. This current piece combines both of these and, IMO, rather loudly yells 'pass'. Well thought out post. I only take exception to the comment - never ever buy atypical art. I suppose it depends what your motivation for buying art is - investment or not. Here I appreciate that you are responding to a direct question from the op about investment, so rest assured this is not a dig. The vast majority of the art that I have collected over 3 decades could early be described as atypical. I love my collection all the more for it. I know a few collectors who bought Banksy canvases for a couple of hundred quid, at a time that they could be decsribed as atypical too. All that having been said, I appreciate that we are talking about ยฃ48k here. Different kettle of fish. I can see what your saying. And, please let me clarify. When I say 'atypical', I mean for the artist. Don't buy paintings from a sculptor(see Koons, Jeff, Fischer, Urs and many more). Don't buy ceramics from a painter. Unless the artist you collect is Sterling Ruby, who has no lane, going out-of-lane is a no-no investment wise. And even then, the market has its preferences for certain types of work. Banksy, though he has done many, is not primarily known as a sculptor. His market is driven by flat-things-you-can-hang-on-walls. So, a sculpture like this will always be, market-wise, a secondary, tertiary, whatever-the-word-that-means-fourth-level-is work. 40k + VAT/shipping for a fourth-level work? Me, personally, if I was advising someone I'd say 'sure thing' only if that person was a multi-millionaire who already had prime Banksy works and they were just looking to go really deep. Then, the price wouldn't be a concern and the lesser nature of the piece wouldn't be either. Or, as stated earlier, if I already had a contracted buyer lined up/locked down with COA concerns already worked out, with a good % commission, and was just passing it along. Edit: Thanks to google, I now know that fourth-level is 'quaternary'.
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Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 11:35:03 GMT 1, I got offered one.
Really tough decision,
Though donโt think I can find the money which makes it easier though no less painful
I got offered one.
Really tough decision,
Though donโt think I can find the money which makes it easier though no less painful
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Matt
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,357
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September 2014
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by Matt on Dec 14, 2017 11:36:18 GMT 1, I think mose you make a very strong point.
This sculpture works nicely in situ on the hotel wall. However as a standalone piece it is somewhat marmite, and within Banksy's work it is a total oddity.
So as stated unless you are a huge collector, I would not pay 40K for it unless you are abolsutely in love with the piece itself.
Even if you were hard set on paying 40K for a Banksy work, there are many other options to consider, making the opportunity cost of this piece not worth it for a small collector.
In any case, cool position to be in, and certainly a short term cash opportunity if you want to seize it
I think mose you make a very strong point. This sculpture works nicely in situ on the hotel wall. However as a standalone piece it is somewhat marmite, and within Banksy's work it is a total oddity. So as stated unless you are a huge collector, I would not pay 40K for it unless you are abolsutely in love with the piece itself. Even if you were hard set on paying 40K for a Banksy work, there are many other options to consider, making the opportunity cost of this piece not worth it for a small collector. In any case, cool position to be in, and certainly a short term cash opportunity if you want to seize it
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nex
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,573
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February 2009
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by nex on Dec 14, 2017 11:38:31 GMT 1, Anyone who got one of these and would consider exchanging for a Nola drop me a line
Anyone who got one of these and would consider exchanging for a Nola drop me a line
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love
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,649
๐๐ป 391
October 2009
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by love on Dec 14, 2017 11:49:41 GMT 1, I would buy it in an second, a shame I didnโt get the mail.
I would buy it in an second, a shame I didnโt get the mail.
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by Happy Shopper on Dec 14, 2017 11:50:51 GMT 1, That's a very expensive edition! I'd buy it if I had that kind of money though. I'm sure there will be high roller collectors willing to pay more in the future to have something so "edgy" hanging in their home.
That's a very expensive edition! I'd buy it if I had that kind of money though. I'm sure there will be high roller collectors willing to pay more in the future to have something so "edgy" hanging in their home.
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eschiff
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,064
๐๐ป 1,000
January 2010
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by eschiff on Dec 14, 2017 11:51:39 GMT 1, mose while I agree that Banksy isn't a sculpture I would argue this isn't outside his lane, unless you're limiting 'his lane' solely to the medium. I think it's very much in his wheelhouse in terms of his political, religious and socio-economic messaging.
I think this piece is much stronger, in terms of message, then most of his prints (what does CYW really say to people?) and while it may be 'marmite', for those of us who believe religion is one of man's most evil creations it speaks quite loudly. I think for Banksy, the subversiveness of this piece is up there with the best of them. I think the Watchtower pieces you alluded to haven't done as well for a couple reason - one, i think many of them were collaborations right? (i could be wrong) and 2 - aside from being much smaller I don't think they carried the same message.
I like the idea that people will be taken aback by the piece - I don't have concerns about the Banksy market, buying anything from primary is a bit of a deal even if prices don't continue increasing exponentially like they have. It's just a liquidity issue, and whether or not I can move everything around in the tight timelines they've given.
mose while I agree that Banksy isn't a sculpture I would argue this isn't outside his lane, unless you're limiting 'his lane' solely to the medium. I think it's very much in his wheelhouse in terms of his political, religious and socio-economic messaging. I think this piece is much stronger, in terms of message, then most of his prints (what does CYW really say to people?) and while it may be 'marmite', for those of us who believe religion is one of man's most evil creations it speaks quite loudly. I think for Banksy, the subversiveness of this piece is up there with the best of them. I think the Watchtower pieces you alluded to haven't done as well for a couple reason - one, i think many of them were collaborations right? (i could be wrong) and 2 - aside from being much smaller I don't think they carried the same message. I like the idea that people will be taken aback by the piece - I don't have concerns about the Banksy market, buying anything from primary is a bit of a deal even if prices don't continue increasing exponentially like they have. It's just a liquidity issue, and whether or not I can move everything around in the tight timelines they've given.
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by Jeezuz Jones Snr on Dec 14, 2017 11:54:36 GMT 1, What's banksys saying 'i can't believe you morons are buying this shit'? It's not even a bronze or similar.. the Jesus is plastic fixed to stained wood! Email back offering 200 pounds ๐ And thank me later..
What's banksys saying 'i can't believe you morons are buying this shit'? It's not even a bronze or similar.. the Jesus is plastic fixed to stained wood! Email back offering 200 pounds ๐ And thank me later..
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Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
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January 1970
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by Deleted on Dec 14, 2017 12:05:18 GMT 1, Without seeing your financial situation, asking for advice is a bit silly.
For a start, Do you have savings that could cover this, is finding ยฃ40k possible, what impact would buying this have on your standard of living, would you need to take out a loan at wonga, can you sell other assets to fund this, would you ever spend this amount on another artist or is the Banksy factor swaying you??? etc, etc.
All of these questions and many more variables would have to be put in the equation before giving a sensible response. This is important because you should only invest what you can afford to lose.
Without seeing your financial situation, asking for advice is a bit silly.
For a start, Do you have savings that could cover this, is finding ยฃ40k possible, what impact would buying this have on your standard of living, would you need to take out a loan at wonga, can you sell other assets to fund this, would you ever spend this amount on another artist or is the Banksy factor swaying you??? etc, etc.
All of these questions and many more variables would have to be put in the equation before giving a sensible response. This is important because you should only invest what you can afford to lose.
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bonusb
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 41
๐๐ป 43
May 2014
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by bonusb on Dec 14, 2017 12:09:26 GMT 1, If you do, get 'em to write gift and a nominal value on the customs form. Works on eBay ๐
If you do, get 'em to write gift and a nominal value on the customs form. Works on eBay ๐
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Unica
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,076
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November 2013
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by Unica on Dec 14, 2017 12:12:22 GMT 1, Tricky decision, maybe look at it like whatโs a better investment unsigned GWB, NOLA or grappling hook? All similarly priced.
Tricky decision, maybe look at it like whatโs a better investment unsigned GWB, NOLA or grappling hook? All similarly priced.
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eschiff
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,064
๐๐ป 1,000
January 2010
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by eschiff on Dec 14, 2017 12:23:12 GMT 1, Tricky decision, maybe look at it like whatโs a better investment unsigned Girl With Balloon, NOLA or grappling hook? All similarly priced. That's a good point. But this is coming from primary so theoretically the cheapest it will ever be.
Tricky decision, maybe look at it like whatโs a better investment unsigned Girl With Balloon, NOLA or grappling hook? All similarly priced. That's a good point. But this is coming from primary so theoretically the cheapest it will ever be.
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Dice
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,234
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October 2011
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by Dice on Dec 14, 2017 12:51:52 GMT 1, If itโs not too much of a stretch for you, go for it. If you donโt want to keep it, in a year time it will almost surely make it worthwhile for you at one of the big auction houses: as others have said, Banksy sculptures are a real rarity.
Although the watchtower sculptures traditionally do very poorly at auction...
If itโs not too much of a stretch for you, go for it. If you donโt want to keep it, in a year time it will almost surely make it worthwhile for you at one of the big auction houses: as others have said, Banksy sculptures are a real rarity. Although the watchtower sculptures traditionally do very poorly at auction...
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by Gentle Mental on Dec 14, 2017 12:52:10 GMT 1, Draft an agreement Find close family friends Each pitch in an affordable amount - say 5k Pay for item with consolidated funds
Hang it at home bask in its artistic glory for an amazing year
Off to the auction house - reserved at 120k
Split as per signed agreement
Win win win win ?
Draft an agreement Find close family friends Each pitch in an affordable amount - say 5k Pay for item with consolidated funds
Hang it at home bask in its artistic glory for an amazing year
Off to the auction house - reserved at 120k
Split as per signed agreement
Win win win win ?
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moron
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,711
๐๐ป 1,051
September 2017
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by moron on Dec 14, 2017 13:41:03 GMT 1, The price makes no difference. It's all about the secondary market with anything Banksy. Does a secondary market exist for this crucifix dada bling bling symbolist sculture. Yes it does for Banksy sculpture as has been proven with his other sculptures that came up for auction.
Does the fact that this sculpture has religious Christian connotations and reference put off some investors who avoid religious art. I'm sure it will but there again there is a healthy market for Hitler memorabilia. So it all does come down to making a profit and having a market for anything no matter the subject matter as long as there are rich weirdos out there who collect this stuff.
Just take a look at Phillips auction results for modern sculpture, they sold a string of light bulbs for three million dollars. So i'm sure one of these Banksy hooks will be sold in an auction in the near future for a hundred K.
It's all about who you know and being on the inside with these mega rich investors or being an outsider with a certain amount of money and buying into some after estate junk sold by a gallery in an expensive part of London, LA or NY etc etc etc.
If you have 40K kicking about that you can afford to move into something else, there are a few options. I can't see this piece losing money even if it doesn't turn a profit.
Muurrke will no doubt do a review on this piece sometime in the next few moments.
The price makes no difference. It's all about the secondary market with anything Banksy. Does a secondary market exist for this crucifix dada bling bling symbolist sculture. Yes it does for Banksy sculpture as has been proven with his other sculptures that came up for auction.
Does the fact that this sculpture has religious Christian connotations and reference put off some investors who avoid religious art. I'm sure it will but there again there is a healthy market for Hitler memorabilia. So it all does come down to making a profit and having a market for anything no matter the subject matter as long as there are rich weirdos out there who collect this stuff.
Just take a look at Phillips auction results for modern sculpture, they sold a string of light bulbs for three million dollars. So i'm sure one of these Banksy hooks will be sold in an auction in the near future for a hundred K.
It's all about who you know and being on the inside with these mega rich investors or being an outsider with a certain amount of money and buying into some after estate junk sold by a gallery in an expensive part of London, LA or NY etc etc etc.
If you have 40K kicking about that you can afford to move into something else, there are a few options. I can't see this piece losing money even if it doesn't turn a profit.
Muurrke will no doubt do a review on this piece sometime in the next few moments.
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rosac
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,894
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July 2015
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by rosac on Dec 14, 2017 14:09:46 GMT 1, have you bought it yet
have you bought it yet
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stelio
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 391
๐๐ป 555
May 2014
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Banksy Grappling Hook, by stelio on Dec 14, 2017 14:33:47 GMT 1, No VAT here in the states if someone needs a proxy... save some money.
No VAT here in the states if someone needs a proxy... save some money.
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