chevyav53
Junior Member
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August 2017
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Share your favorite Black/Minority Artist , by chevyav53 on Jun 6, 2020 18:23:48 GMT 1, Thanks, that's a great poster to make it clear.
Do you think that highlighting Black Artists could be seen in the same light or is it negative to highlight black artists like everyone is doing on Instagram now? It's tough to know what actions are a consequence of white privilege or white influence, what's genuine, and what is the correct thing to do. Someone will always get offended. I imagine that the person who originally created this had positive intentions to highlight previously underrepresented artists. But at the same time, highlighting based on race could also reinforce Otherness.
Thanks, that's a great poster to make it clear.
Do you think that highlighting Black Artists could be seen in the same light or is it negative to highlight black artists like everyone is doing on Instagram now? It's tough to know what actions are a consequence of white privilege or white influence, what's genuine, and what is the correct thing to do. Someone will always get offended. I imagine that the person who originally created this had positive intentions to highlight previously underrepresented artists. But at the same time, highlighting based on race could also reinforce Otherness.
Not highlighting racial inequality including under representation in all aspects of life including art reinforces the problem of systemic racism. |
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wrigs
New Member
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July 2017
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Share your favorite Black/Minority Artist , by wrigs on Jun 6, 2020 18:59:11 GMT 1,
Thanks for the tip 😁
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met
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,797
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June 2009
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Share your favorite Black/Minority Artist , by met on Jun 6, 2020 20:42:30 GMT 1, Viewing artists through the narrow prism of identity politics; judging and classifying and segregating them according to immutable characteristics like race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation... There, in my view, lies the path to regression. The path leading away from progress. Away from the dream King had for his four little children. It is worth asking ourselves if we would ever utter out loud, without embarrassment, a statement along the lines of, "[x] is a very good black artist." And in their presence, query whether we'd say to them (at least as a compliment), "You are my favourite black artist."If the answers are no, then perhaps the actual premise of this thread should be reconsidered, notwithstanding any underlying good intentions. Sorry, as a mixed race person, i feel that identity should not be marginalized , diluted, or overlooked. Go pound sand
Since I'm trying to avoid multiple discussions in parallel, forgive me for just quoting your post, cest.
Had to Google the expression "Go pound sand" to find out what it meant. So there are educational benefits to this forum. What this emphasises is the fact none of us ever ceases to be a student. Nor should we.
No substantive issue with your opinion; it seems reasonable enough to me.
[By way of aside, I do however believe this opinion is undermined when you qualify it by reference to your background. Arguments are sound and persuasive. Or they are not. The identity of a holder (along with their ethnicity, sex, sexual orientation, etc.) is irrelevant to the strength of their arguments.
It so happens I'm a hybrid myself (as no doubt will be the case with many others here). But that isn't something to be raised by me to bolster my views. Because it simply isn't germane. What a reader or listener should say is, "Yes, that point was well-made" or "No, that point was unconvincing; it was poorly thought-through". One truly hopes they will avoid a comment like, "Yes, well-said, for a mixed-race person."
Logic and reasoning are simply not race issues. So any implication that they can be is unhelpful. It's a corruption that hinders rational debate instead of promoting it.]
Regarding this opinion, fair enough if people may want to celebrate their identities. The two of us don't disagree here.
Indeed, people can also celebrate their sub-identities. And their sub-sub-identities. The categories, the boxes, the pigeonholes — all of these can be subdivided and broken down continuously, until we finally get to each unique person on earth. Dr. King was mentioned in my previous post. And this is precisely what he was referring to when (in Washington, D.C. on 28 August 1963) he shared his hopes for the future, including this one:
I have a dream my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today!
King was certainly not marginalising, diluting, or overlooking identity. On the contrary, he was taking that notion to its righteous conclusion. That people be judged as individuals. And of course judged equally, according to the same standards.
__________
Now, when it comes to artists who've earned their stripes in the art world, on what bases should their work be assessed?
Moreover, according to what criteria would the artists themselves wish and expect their work to be appraised?
A number of possible criteria come to my mind — like talent, technical skill, innovativeness. But the segregation of these professionals according to their race is an approach that feels backward.
__________
I'll pose my earlier question once again.
Take a specific example. In the presence of, say, Jean-Michel Basquait, would it ever have entered the mind of anyone here to tell him, "Sir, you are a very good black / mixed-race artist."?
Members who have informed themselves, including by watching interview footage of Basquiat, know what kind of response this would have elicited from him. The artist heavily resented being patronised, and being judged by standards different to those of his peers, for reason of his skin colour alone. It was a rather benign yet thoroughly offensive racism. "He's done well, that young (black) man. Good for him."
__________
A few more examples, purely for emphasis. Query how many of us would be comfortable saying (or even witnessing another person say) the following:
- "Mr deGrasse-Tyson, you are an excellent black astrophysicist."
- "Mr Freeman, great performance in The Shawshank Redemption! It may interest you to know that you're my favourite black actor."
- [When alive] "Mr Cochran, your oratory skills are most impressive. In fact, congratulations, because you are Number 1 on the list I've compiled of capable black attorneys."
I do take issue with comments of this nature and their underlying mindset. Because they frankly seem racist to me. More importantly (at least when well-intentioned), I believe they risk being counterproductive — i.e. ultimately harmful to the causes they are presumably meant to support.
Nonetheless, I'm also well aware that opinions on these matters vary greatly.
The fact other people may hold positions different to my own doesn't offend me in the slightest. Nor do I consider this a reason to respond to them in a manner that isn't conducive to open dialogue. In an already highly-polarised society, the ongoing and courteous exchange of competing viewpoints is far more important to me than trading insults or petty point-scoring.
Viewing artists through the narrow prism of identity politics; judging and classifying and segregating them according to immutable characteristics like race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation... There, in my view, lies the path to regression. The path leading away from progress. Away from the dream King had for his four little children. It is worth asking ourselves if we would ever utter out loud, without embarrassment, a statement along the lines of, "[x] is a very good black artist." And in their presence, query whether we'd say to them (at least as a compliment), "You are my favourite black artist."If the answers are no, then perhaps the actual premise of this thread should be reconsidered, notwithstanding any underlying good intentions. Sorry, as a mixed race person, i feel that identity should not be marginalized , diluted, or overlooked. Go pound sand Since I'm trying to avoid multiple discussions in parallel, forgive me for just quoting your post, cest. Had to Google the expression "Go pound sand" to find out what it meant. So there are educational benefits to this forum. What this emphasises is the fact none of us ever ceases to be a student. Nor should we. No substantive issue with your opinion; it seems reasonable enough to me. [By way of aside, I do however believe this opinion is undermined when you qualify it by reference to your background. Arguments are sound and persuasive. Or they are not. The identity of a holder (along with their ethnicity, sex, sexual orientation, etc.) is irrelevant to the strength of their arguments. It so happens I'm a hybrid myself (as no doubt will be the case with many others here). But that isn't something to be raised by me to bolster my views. Because it simply isn't germane. What a reader or listener should say is, "Yes, that point was well-made" or "No, that point was unconvincing; it was poorly thought-through". One truly hopes they will avoid a comment like, "Yes, well-said, for a mixed-race person." Logic and reasoning are simply not race issues. So any implication that they can be is unhelpful. It's a corruption that hinders rational debate instead of promoting it.]Regarding this opinion, fair enough if people may want to celebrate their identities. The two of us don't disagree here. Indeed, people can also celebrate their sub-identities. And their sub-sub-identities. The categories, the boxes, the pigeonholes — all of these can be subdivided and broken down continuously, until we finally get to each unique person on earth. Dr. King was mentioned in my previous post. And this is precisely what he was referring to when (in Washington, D.C. on 28 August 1963) he shared his hopes for the future, including this one: I have a dream my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today!King was certainly not marginalising, diluting, or overlooking identity. On the contrary, he was taking that notion to its righteous conclusion. That people be judged as individuals. And of course judged equally, according to the same standards. __________ Now, when it comes to artists who've earned their stripes in the art world, on what bases should their work be assessed? Moreover, according to what criteria would the artists themselves wish and expect their work to be appraised? A number of possible criteria come to my mind — like talent, technical skill, innovativeness. But the segregation of these professionals according to their race is an approach that feels backward. __________ I'll po se my earlier question once again. Take a specific example. In the presence of, say, Jean-Michel Basquait, would it ever have entered the mind of anyone here to tell him, "Sir, you are a very good black / mixed-race artist."? Members who have informed themselves, including by watching interview footage of Bas quiat, know what kind of response this would have elicited from him. The artist heavily resented being patronised, and being judged by standards different to those of his peers, for reason of his skin colour alone. It was a rather benign yet thoroughly offensive racism. "He's done well, that young (black) man. Good for him."__________ A few more examples, purely for emphasis. Query how many of us would be comfortable saying (or even witnessing another person say) the following: - "Mr deGrasse-Tyson, you are an excellent black astrophysicist."- "Mr Freeman, great performance in The Shawshank Redemption! It may interest you to know that you're my favourite black actor." - [When alive] "Mr Cochran, your oratory skills are most impressive. In fact, congratulations, because you are Number 1 on the list I've compiled of capable black attorneys." I do take issue with comments of this nature and their underlying mindset. Because they frankly seem racist to me. More importantly (at least when well-intentioned), I believe they risk being counterproductive — i.e. ultimately harmful to the causes they are presumably meant to support. Nonetheless, I'm also well aware that opinions on these matters vary greatly. The fact other people may hold positions different to my own doesn't offend me in the slightest. Nor do I consider this a reason to respond to them in a manner that isn't conducive to open dialogue. In an already highly-polarised society, the ongoing and courteous exchange of competing viewpoints is far more important to me than trading insults or petty point-scoring. |
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Pipes
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,438
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January 2012
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Share your favorite Black/Minority Artist , by Pipes on Jun 6, 2020 20:51:55 GMT 1, Shantell’s comments as McCann and Microsoft seem to attempt benefit from her.
http://instagram.com/p/CBGn0IXA9Q9
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dotdot
Junior Member
🗨️ 3,660
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December 2006
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Share your favorite Black/Minority Artist , by dotdot on Jun 6, 2020 21:08:15 GMT 1, let's back the Van up a bit.
to those who think debate is good thing
let's back the Van up a bit.
to those who think debate is good thing
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Dive Jedi
Junior Member
🗨️ 6,194
👍🏻 9,453
October 2015
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Share your favorite Black/Minority Artist , by Dive Jedi on Jun 6, 2020 22:04:27 GMT 1, Sorry, as a mixed race person, i feel that identity should not be marginalized , diluted, or overlooked. Go pound sand Since I'm trying to avoid multiple discussions in parallel, forgive me for just quoting your post, cest . Had to Google the expression "Go pound sand" to find out what it meant. So there are educational benefits to this forum. What this emphasises is the fact none of us ever ceases to be a student. Nor should we. No substantive issue with your opinion; it seems reasonable enough to me. [By way of aside, I do however believe this opinion is undermined when you qualify it by reference to your background. Arguments are sound and persuasive. Or they are not. The identity of a holder (along with their ethnicity, sex, sexual orientation, etc.) is irrelevant to the strength of their arguments. It so happens I'm a hybrid myself (as no doubt will be the case with many others here). But that isn't something to be raised by me to bolster my views. Because it simply isn't germane. What a reader or listener should say is, "Yes, that point was well-made" or "No, that point was unconvincing; it was poorly thought-through". One truly hopes they will avoid a comment like, "Yes, well-said, for a mixed-race person." Logic and reasoning are simply not race issues. So any implication that they can be is unhelpful. It's a corruption that hinders rational debate instead of promoting it.]Regarding this opinion, fair enough if people may want to celebrate their identities. The two of us don't disagree here. Indeed, people can also celebrate their sub-identities. And their sub-sub-identities. The categories, the boxes, the pigeonholes — all of these can be subdivided and broken down continuously, until we finally get to each unique person on earth. Dr. King was mentioned in my previous post. And this is precisely what he was referring to when (in Washington, D.C. on 28 August 1963) he shared his hopes for the future, including this one: I have a dream my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today!King was certainly not marginalising, diluting, or overlooking identity. On the contrary, he was taking that notion to its righteous conclusion. That people be judged as individuals. And of course judged equally, according to the same standards. __________ Now, when it comes to artists who've earned their stripes in the art world, on what bases should their work be assessed? Moreover, according to what criteria would the artists themselves wish and expect their work to be appraised? A number of possible criteria come to my mind — like talent, technical skill, innovativeness. But the segregation of these professionals according to their race is an approach that feels backward. __________ I'll po se my earlier question once again. Take a specific example. In the presence of, say, Jean-Michel Basquait, would it ever have entered the mind of anyone here to tell him, "Sir, you are a very good black / mixed-race artist."? Members who have informed themselves, including by watching interview footage of Bas quiat, know what kind of response this would have elicited from him. The artist heavily resented being patronised, and being judged by standards different to those of his peers, for reason of his skin colour alone. It was a rather benign yet thoroughly offensive racism. "He's done well, that young (black) man. Good for him."__________ A few more examples, purely for emphasis. Query how many of us would be comfortable saying (or even witnessing another person say) the following: - "Mr deGrasse-Tyson, you are an excellent black astrophysicist."- "Mr Freeman, great performance in The Shawshank Redemption! It may interest you to know that you're my favourite black actor." - [When alive] "Mr Cochran, your oratory skills are most impressive. In fact, congratulations, because you are Number 1 on the list I've compiled of capable black attorneys." I do take issue with comments of this nature and their underlying mindset. Because they frankly seem racist to me. More importantly (at least when well-intentioned), I believe they risk being counterproductive — i.e. ultimately harmful to the causes they are presumably meant to support. Nonetheless, I'm also well aware that opinions on these matters vary greatly. The fact other people may hold positions different to my own doesn't offend me in the slightest. Nor do I consider this a reason to respond to them in a manner that isn't conducive to open dialogue. In an already highly-polarised society, the ongoing and courteous exchange of competing viewpoints is far more important to me than trading insults or petty point-scoring.
It's so great to meet you.
You are my favourite black artist.
And my third favourite German painter.
Not to mention my second most favourite woman artist!
Can we do a selfie? Oh, wait. Let's do 3!
I always get annoyed when CNN is talking about black votes etc.
That's really unimaginable in Netherlands / Europe.
Ah well, I have been "called out" as a racist by a couple of members here,
so I'll go pound sand....
Sorry, as a mixed race person, i feel that identity should not be marginalized , diluted, or overlooked. Go pound sand Since I'm trying to avoid multiple discussions in parallel, forgive me for just quoting your post, cest . Had to Google the expression "Go pound sand" to find out what it meant. So there are educational benefits to this forum. What this emphasises is the fact none of us ever ceases to be a student. Nor should we. No substantive issue with your opinion; it seems reasonable enough to me. [By way of aside, I do however believe this opinion is undermined when you qualify it by reference to your background. Arguments are sound and persuasive. Or they are not. The identity of a holder (along with their ethnicity, sex, sexual orientation, etc.) is irrelevant to the strength of their arguments. It so happens I'm a hybrid myself (as no doubt will be the case with many others here). But that isn't something to be raised by me to bolster my views. Because it simply isn't germane. What a reader or listener should say is, "Yes, that point was well-made" or "No, that point was unconvincing; it was poorly thought-through". One truly hopes they will avoid a comment like, "Yes, well-said, for a mixed-race person." Logic and reasoning are simply not race issues. So any implication that they can be is unhelpful. It's a corruption that hinders rational debate instead of promoting it.]Regarding this opinion, fair enough if people may want to celebrate their identities. The two of us don't disagree here. Indeed, people can also celebrate their sub-identities. And their sub-sub-identities. The categories, the boxes, the pigeonholes — all of these can be subdivided and broken down continuously, until we finally get to each unique person on earth. Dr. King was mentioned in my previous post. And this is precisely what he was referring to when (in Washington, D.C. on 28 August 1963) he shared his hopes for the future, including this one: I have a dream my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today!King was certainly not marginalising, diluting, or overlooking identity. On the contrary, he was taking that notion to its righteous conclusion. That people be judged as individuals. And of course judged equally, according to the same standards. __________ Now, when it comes to artists who've earned their stripes in the art world, on what bases should their work be assessed? Moreover, according to what criteria would the artists themselves wish and expect their work to be appraised? A number of possible criteria come to my mind — like talent, technical skill, innovativeness. But the segregation of these professionals according to their race is an approach that feels backward. __________ I'll po se my earlier question once again. Take a specific example. In the presence of, say, Jean-Michel Basquait, would it ever have entered the mind of anyone here to tell him, "Sir, you are a very good black / mixed-race artist."? Members who have informed themselves, including by watching interview footage of Bas quiat, know what kind of response this would have elicited from him. The artist heavily resented being patronised, and being judged by standards different to those of his peers, for reason of his skin colour alone. It was a rather benign yet thoroughly offensive racism. "He's done well, that young (black) man. Good for him."__________ A few more examples, purely for emphasis. Query how many of us would be comfortable saying (or even witnessing another person say) the following: - "Mr deGrasse-Tyson, you are an excellent black astrophysicist."- "Mr Freeman, great performance in The Shawshank Redemption! It may interest you to know that you're my favourite black actor." - [When alive] "Mr Cochran, your oratory skills are most impressive. In fact, congratulations, because you are Number 1 on the list I've compiled of capable black attorneys." I do take issue with comments of this nature and their underlying mindset. Because they frankly seem racist to me. More importantly (at least when well-intentioned), I believe they risk being counterproductive — i.e. ultimately harmful to the causes they are presumably meant to support. Nonetheless, I'm also well aware that opinions on these matters vary greatly. The fact other people may hold positions different to my own doesn't offend me in the slightest. Nor do I consider this a reason to respond to them in a manner that isn't conducive to open dialogue. In an already highly-polarised society, the ongoing and courteous exchange of competing viewpoints is far more important to me than trading insults or petty point-scoring. Not to mention this could get really complicated : It's so great to meet you. You are my favourite black artist. And my third favourite German painter. Not to mention my second most favourite woman artist! Can we do a selfie? Oh, wait. Let's do 3! I always get annoyed when CNN is talking about black votes etc. That's really unimaginable in Netherlands / Europe. Ah well, I have been "called out" as a racist by a couple of members here, so I'll go pound sand.... |
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tab1
Full Member
🗨️ 8,519
👍🏻 3,679
September 2011
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Share your favorite Black/Minority Artist , by tab1 on Jun 6, 2020 22:11:02 GMT 1, Since I'm trying to avoid multiple discussions in parallel, forgive me for just quoting your post, cest . Had to Google the expression "Go pound sand" to find out what it meant. So there are educational benefits to this forum. What this emphasises is the fact none of us ever ceases to be a student. Nor should we. No substantive issue with your opinion; it seems reasonable enough to me. [By way of aside, I do however believe this opinion is undermined when you qualify it by reference to your background. Arguments are sound and persuasive. Or they are not. The identity of a holder (along with their ethnicity, sex, sexual orientation, etc.) is irrelevant to the strength of their arguments. It so happens I'm a hybrid myself (as no doubt will be the case with many others here). But that isn't something to be raised by me to bolster my views. Because it simply isn't germane. What a reader or listener should say is, "Yes, that point was well-made" or "No, that point was unconvincing; it was poorly thought-through". One truly hopes they will avoid a comment like, "Yes, well-said, for a mixed-race person." Logic and reasoning are simply not race issues. So any implication that they can be is unhelpful. It's a corruption that hinders rational debate instead of promoting it.]Regarding this opinion, fair enough if people may want to celebrate their identities. The two of us don't disagree here. Indeed, people can also celebrate their sub-identities. And their sub-sub-identities. The categories, the boxes, the pigeonholes — all of these can be subdivided and broken down continuously, until we finally get to each unique person on earth. Dr. King was mentioned in my previous post. And this is precisely what he was referring to when (in Washington, D.C. on 28 August 1963) he shared his hopes for the future, including this one: I have a dream my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today!King was certainly not marginalising, diluting, or overlooking identity. On the contrary, he was taking that notion to its righteous conclusion. That people be judged as individuals. And of course judged equally, according to the same standards. __________ Now, when it comes to artists who've earned their stripes in the art world, on what bases should their work be assessed? Moreover, according to what criteria would the artists themselves wish and expect their work to be appraised? A number of possible criteria come to my mind — like talent, technical skill, innovativeness. But the segregation of these professionals according to their race is an approach that feels backward. __________ I'll po se my earlier question once again. Take a specific example. In the presence of, say, Jean-Michel Basquait, would it ever have entered the mind of anyone here to tell him, "Sir, you are a very good black / mixed-race artist."? Members who have informed themselves, including by watching interview footage of Bas quiat, know what kind of response this would have elicited from him. The artist heavily resented being patronised, and being judged by standards different to those of his peers, for reason of his skin colour alone. It was a rather benign yet thoroughly offensive racism. "He's done well, that young (black) man. Good for him."__________ A few more examples, purely for emphasis. Query how many of us would be comfortable saying (or even witnessing another person say) the following: - "Mr deGrasse-Tyson, you are an excellent black astrophysicist."- "Mr Freeman, great performance in The Shawshank Redemption! It may interest you to know that you're my favourite black actor." - [When alive] "Mr Cochran, your oratory skills are most impressive. In fact, congratulations, because you are Number 1 on the list I've compiled of capable black attorneys." I do take issue with comments of this nature and their underlying mindset. Because they frankly seem racist to me. More importantly (at least when well-intentioned), I believe they risk being counterproductive — i.e. ultimately harmful to the causes they are presumably meant to support. Nonetheless, I'm also well aware that opinions on these matters vary greatly. The fact other people may hold positions different to my own doesn't offend me in the slightest. Nor do I consider this a reason to respond to them in a manner that isn't conducive to open dialogue. In an already highly-polarised society, the ongoing and courteous exchange of competing viewpoints is far more important to me than trading insults or petty point-scoring. Not to mention this could get really complicated : It's so great to meet you. You are my favourite black artist. And my third favourite German painter. Not to mention my second most favourite woman artist! Can we do a selfie? Oh, wait. Let's do 3! I always get annoyed when CNN is talking about black votes etc. That's really unimaginable in Netherlands / Europe. Ah well, I have been "called out" as a racist by a couple of members here, so I'll go pound sand....
im sure it was not racist but homophobic?😉
Since I'm trying to avoid multiple discussions in parallel, forgive me for just quoting your post, cest . Had to Google the expression "Go pound sand" to find out what it meant. So there are educational benefits to this forum. What this emphasises is the fact none of us ever ceases to be a student. Nor should we. No substantive issue with your opinion; it seems reasonable enough to me. [By way of aside, I do however believe this opinion is undermined when you qualify it by reference to your background. Arguments are sound and persuasive. Or they are not. The identity of a holder (along with their ethnicity, sex, sexual orientation, etc.) is irrelevant to the strength of their arguments. It so happens I'm a hybrid myself (as no doubt will be the case with many others here). But that isn't something to be raised by me to bolster my views. Because it simply isn't germane. What a reader or listener should say is, "Yes, that point was well-made" or "No, that point was unconvincing; it was poorly thought-through". One truly hopes they will avoid a comment like, "Yes, well-said, for a mixed-race person." Logic and reasoning are simply not race issues. So any implication that they can be is unhelpful. It's a corruption that hinders rational debate instead of promoting it.]Regarding this opinion, fair enough if people may want to celebrate their identities. The two of us don't disagree here. Indeed, people can also celebrate their sub-identities. And their sub-sub-identities. The categories, the boxes, the pigeonholes — all of these can be subdivided and broken down continuously, until we finally get to each unique person on earth. Dr. King was mentioned in my previous post. And this is precisely what he was referring to when (in Washington, D.C. on 28 August 1963) he shared his hopes for the future, including this one: I have a dream my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today!King was certainly not marginalising, diluting, or overlooking identity. On the contrary, he was taking that notion to its righteous conclusion. That people be judged as individuals. And of course judged equally, according to the same standards. __________ Now, when it comes to artists who've earned their stripes in the art world, on what bases should their work be assessed? Moreover, according to what criteria would the artists themselves wish and expect their work to be appraised? A number of possible criteria come to my mind — like talent, technical skill, innovativeness. But the segregation of these professionals according to their race is an approach that feels backward. __________ I'll po se my earlier question once again. Take a specific example. In the presence of, say, Jean-Michel Basquait, would it ever have entered the mind of anyone here to tell him, "Sir, you are a very good black / mixed-race artist."? Members who have informed themselves, including by watching interview footage of Bas quiat, know what kind of response this would have elicited from him. The artist heavily resented being patronised, and being judged by standards different to those of his peers, for reason of his skin colour alone. It was a rather benign yet thoroughly offensive racism. "He's done well, that young (black) man. Good for him."__________ A few more examples, purely for emphasis. Query how many of us would be comfortable saying (or even witnessing another person say) the following: - "Mr deGrasse-Tyson, you are an excellent black astrophysicist."- "Mr Freeman, great performance in The Shawshank Redemption! It may interest you to know that you're my favourite black actor." - [When alive] "Mr Cochran, your oratory skills are most impressive. In fact, congratulations, because you are Number 1 on the list I've compiled of capable black attorneys." I do take issue with comments of this nature and their underlying mindset. Because they frankly seem racist to me. More importantly (at least when well-intentioned), I believe they risk being counterproductive — i.e. ultimately harmful to the causes they are presumably meant to support. Nonetheless, I'm also well aware that opinions on these matters vary greatly. The fact other people may hold positions different to my own doesn't offend me in the slightest. Nor do I consider this a reason to respond to them in a manner that isn't conducive to open dialogue. In an already highly-polarised society, the ongoing and courteous exchange of competing viewpoints is far more important to me than trading insults or petty point-scoring. Not to mention this could get really complicated : It's so great to meet you. You are my favourite black artist. And my third favourite German painter. Not to mention my second most favourite woman artist! Can we do a selfie? Oh, wait. Let's do 3! I always get annoyed when CNN is talking about black votes etc. That's really unimaginable in Netherlands / Europe. Ah well, I have been "called out" as a racist by a couple of members here, so I'll go pound sand.... im sure it was not racist but homophobic?😉 |
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chevyav53
Junior Member
🗨️ 1,356
👍🏻 1,134
August 2017
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Share your favorite Black/Minority Artist , by chevyav53 on Jun 6, 2020 23:37:14 GMT 1, Maybe reminding you of some of the issues in jolly ol England might help. A bit of reality from your own...... but I still don’t think it will help some on you.
“The journey towards understanding structural racism still requires people of colour to prioritise white feelings. Even if they can hear you, they’re not really listening. It’s like something happens to the words as they leave our mouths and reach their ears. The words hit a barrier of denial and they don’t get any further.
“That’s the emotional disconnect. It’s not really surprising, because they’ve never known what it means to embrace a person of colour as a true equal, with thoughts and feelings that are as valid as their own. Watching [the documentary] The Color of Fear by Lee Mun Wah, I saw people of colour break down in tears as they struggled to convince a defiant white man that his words were enforcing and perpetuating a white racist standard on them. All the while he stared obliviously, completely confused by this pain, at best trivialising it, at worst ridiculing it.
Try to read the full article and try to understand.......
For years, racism has been defined by the violence of far-right extremists, but a more insidious kind of prejudice can be found where many least expect it – at the heart of respectable society
www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/30/why-im-no-longer-talking-to-white-people-about-race
Maybe reminding you of some of the issues in jolly ol England might help. A bit of reality from your own...... but I still don’t think it will help some on you. “The journey towards understanding structural racism still requires people of colour to prioritise white feelings. Even if they can hear you, they’re not really listening. It’s like something happens to the words as they leave our mouths and reach their ears. The words hit a barrier of denial and they don’t get any further. “That’s the emotional disconnect. It’s not really surprising, because they’ve never known what it means to embrace a person of colour as a true equal, with thoughts and feelings that are as valid as their own. Watching [the documentary] The Color of Fear by Lee Mun Wah, I saw people of colour break down in tears as they struggled to convince a defiant white man that his words were enforcing and perpetuating a white racist standard on them. All the while he stared obliviously, completely confused by this pain, at best trivialising it, at worst ridiculing it. Try to read the full article and try to understand....... For years, racism has been defined by the violence of far-right extremists, but a more insidious kind of prejudice can be found where many least expect it – at the heart of respectable society www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/30/why-im-no-longer-talking-to-white-people-about-race |
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Share your favorite Black/Minority Artist , by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 10:33:35 GMT 1, Saying, 'It's bad to highlight your favourite artists of colour! We should see all people equally!' only works if you think that's what we already do. We should treat everyone equally, yes, but we don't. The world, including the art world, isn't a meritocracy. It favours white voices and white view points. Euan Roberts spoke on Instagram this week about how very few galleries represent black artists. If it's hard to find representation it's hard to be visible.
Celebrating artists of colour doesn't create separation. It does the opposite. It brings them into a conversation that often excludes them. The more you consciously bring under-represented people into the conversation the more inclusive it becomes. If it happens enough, everyone is eventually just naturally part of the same conversation. You don't get there by pretending that everyone who deserves to be in the conversation is already in it.
Saying, 'It's bad to highlight your favourite artists of colour! We should see all people equally!' only works if you think that's what we already do. We should treat everyone equally, yes, but we don't. The world, including the art world, isn't a meritocracy. It favours white voices and white view points. Euan Roberts spoke on Instagram this week about how very few galleries represent black artists. If it's hard to find representation it's hard to be visible.
Celebrating artists of colour doesn't create separation. It does the opposite. It brings them into a conversation that often excludes them. The more you consciously bring under-represented people into the conversation the more inclusive it becomes. If it happens enough, everyone is eventually just naturally part of the same conversation. You don't get there by pretending that everyone who deserves to be in the conversation is already in it.
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tally
New Member
🗨️ 226
👍🏻 226
February 2015
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Share your favorite Black/Minority Artist , by tally on Jun 7, 2020 10:43:09 GMT 1, Saying, 'It's bad to highlight your favourite artists of colour! We should see all people equally!' only works if you think that's what we already do. We should treat everyone equally, yes, but we don't. The world, including the art world, isn't a meritocracy. It favours white voices and white view points. Euan Roberts spoke on Instagram this week about how very few galleries represent black artists. If it's hard to find representation it's hard to be visible. Celebrating artists of colour doesn't create separation. It does the opposite. It brings them into a conversation that often excludes them. The more you consciously bring under-represented people into the conversation the more inclusive it becomes. If it happens enough, everyone is eventually just naturally part of the same conversation. You don't get there by pretending that everyone who deserves to be in the conversation is already in it.
This is so perfect, thank you for such a measured and sophisticated statement.
Saying, 'It's bad to highlight your favourite artists of colour! We should see all people equally!' only works if you think that's what we already do. We should treat everyone equally, yes, but we don't. The world, including the art world, isn't a meritocracy. It favours white voices and white view points. Euan Roberts spoke on Instagram this week about how very few galleries represent black artists. If it's hard to find representation it's hard to be visible. Celebrating artists of colour doesn't create separation. It does the opposite. It brings them into a conversation that often excludes them. The more you consciously bring under-represented people into the conversation the more inclusive it becomes. If it happens enough, everyone is eventually just naturally part of the same conversation. You don't get there by pretending that everyone who deserves to be in the conversation is already in it. This is so perfect, thank you for such a measured and sophisticated statement. |
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esfer
New Member
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👍🏻 303
November 2019
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Share your favorite Black/Minority Artist , by esfer on Jun 7, 2020 12:50:39 GMT 1, Viewing artists through the narrow prism of identity politics; judging and classifying and segregating them according to immutable characteristics like race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation... There, in my view, lies the path to regression. The path leading away from progress. Away from the dream King had for his four little children. It is worth asking ourselves if we would ever utter out loud, without embarrassment, a statement along the lines of, "[x] is a very good black artist." And in their presence, query whether we'd say to them (at least as a compliment), "You are my favourite black artist."If the answers are no, then perhaps the actual premise of this thread should be reconsidered, notwithstanding any underlying good intentions. I think I agree, but I have a question. What are your views on the Black Lives Matter slogan? Prior to this week, I wasn't even aware that of the history behind All Lives Matter and thought it was a positive slogan which was inclusive of all people, rather than singling out a particular race. Given that white supremacists have apparently adopted All Lives Matter for themselves, it seems to have polluted those three words. If society did not view the statement negatively, would you prefer that statement over Black Lives Matter?
I think the point of the slogan "Black Lives Matter" is being missed.
The point being that White lives have always mattered.
Absolutely, All lives do matter.
However those trying to change the slogan from "Black Lives" to "All Lives" are only seeking to dilute the potency of the BLM movement, and to point the focus away from the constant and unceasing racism and violence directed towards black people, by the Police, throughout the United States.
Viewing artists through the narrow prism of identity politics; judging and classifying and segregating them according to immutable characteristics like race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation... There, in my view, lies the path to regression. The path leading away from progress. Away from the dream King had for his four little children. It is worth asking ourselves if we would ever utter out loud, without embarrassment, a statement along the lines of, "[x] is a very good black artist." And in their presence, query whether we'd say to them (at least as a compliment), "You are my favourite black artist."If the answers are no, then perhaps the actual premise of this thread should be reconsidered, notwithstanding any underlying good intentions. I think I agree, but I have a question. What are your views on the Black Lives Matter slogan? Prior to this week, I wasn't even aware that of the history behind All Lives Matter and thought it was a positive slogan which was inclusive of all people, rather than singling out a particular race. Given that white supremacists have apparently adopted All Lives Matter for themselves, it seems to have polluted those three words. If society did not view the statement negatively, would you prefer that statement over Black Lives Matter? I think the point of the slogan "Black Lives Matter" is being missed. The point being that White lives have always mattered. Absolutely, All lives do matter. However those trying to change the slogan from "Black Lives" to "All Lives" are only seeking to dilute the potency of the BLM movement, and to point the focus away from the constant and unceasing racism and violence directed towards black people, by the Police, throughout the United States. |
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Dive Jedi
Junior Member
🗨️ 6,194
👍🏻 9,453
October 2015
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Share your favorite Black/Minority Artist , by Dive Jedi on Jun 7, 2020 13:06:15 GMT 1, You watch this video of brilliant comedian Patrice O'Neal (who died way to young) :
Just the first 7 minutes basicly says it all. True as f#ck.
And brilliant to adress this and still be super funny.
You watch this video of brilliant comedian Patrice O'Neal (who died way to young) :
Just the first 7 minutes basicly says it all. True as f#ck.
And brilliant to adress this and still be super funny.
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tab1
Full Member
🗨️ 8,519
👍🏻 3,679
September 2011
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Share your favorite Black/Minority Artist , by tab1 on Jun 7, 2020 13:25:57 GMT 1, I think I agree, but I have a question. What are your views on the Black Lives Matter slogan? Prior to this week, I wasn't even aware that of the history behind All Lives Matter and thought it was a positive slogan which was inclusive of all people, rather than singling out a particular race. Given that white supremacists have apparently adopted All Lives Matter for themselves, it seems to have polluted those three words. If society did not view the statement negatively, would you prefer that statement over Black Lives Matter? I think the point of the slogan "Black Lives Matter" is being missed. The point is that White lives have always mattered.
A group of babies in a room , one is autistic , To the general viewer all look the same and no problems are noted , the parents will want to fit in and not stand out as a stigma is presented around the condition , groups are set up to raise awareness as this particular group needs help to break stigmas and to progress ,all the babies require the same love, attention and Support .
Blm, everyone is an ideal world is born equal ,white groups suffer from police brutality And some of the inequalities the blm groups Present but not on a scale to the previous groups and the scale of underlying bias And everyday negative impacts on lives are unmet by other groups hence highlighting the inequalities and a specific group to highlight , they are not segregating race but raising awareness , what is misconstrued is some of the individuals using these groups not for the original cause but being associated with the core value of the cause with their criminal behaviour .
I regular watch U.K. policing programmes , which there are many on uk tv , when viewing a Drunk white person he or she May push and swear constantly at an officer and on average given 3-4 warnings before an arrest , a person of colour in a drunk state presents the same conduct and they are usually arrested at once without any further warnings ?
Why the disparities in policing? Underlying bias towards race , unknowingly some people’s mindsets are preset to negativity towards race
I think I agree, but I have a question. What are your views on the Black Lives Matter slogan? Prior to this week, I wasn't even aware that of the history behind All Lives Matter and thought it was a positive slogan which was inclusive of all people, rather than singling out a particular race. Given that white supremacists have apparently adopted All Lives Matter for themselves, it seems to have polluted those three words. If society did not view the statement negatively, would you prefer that statement over Black Lives Matter? I think the point of the slogan "Black Lives Matter" is being missed. The point is that White lives have always mattered. A group of babies in a room , one is autistic , To the general viewer all look the same and no problems are noted , the parents will want to fit in and not stand out as a stigma is presented around the condition , groups are set up to raise awareness as this particular group needs help to break stigmas and to progress ,all the babies require the same love, attention and Support . Blm, everyone is an ideal world is born equal ,white groups suffer from police brutality And some of the inequalities the blm groups Present but not on a scale to the previous groups and the scale of underlying bias And everyday negative impacts on lives are unmet by other groups hence highlighting the inequalities and a specific group to highlight , they are not segregating race but raising awareness , what is misconstrued is some of the individuals using these groups not for the original cause but being associated with the core value of the cause with their criminal behaviour . I regular watch U.K. policing programmes , which there are many on uk tv , when viewing a Drunk white person he or she May push and swear constantly at an officer and on average given 3-4 warnings before an arrest , a person of colour in a drunk state presents the same conduct and they are usually arrested at once without any further warnings ? Why the disparities in policing? Underlying bias towards race , unknowingly some people’s mindsets are preset to negativity towards race |
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