LJCal
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December 2019
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 12:00:36 GMT 1, So, let me see if I've got this right. Some shady wealthy people (they're all shady), we'll call them The Syndicate, select an unknown artist, largely because there'll be limited work already out there, so they can control the flow and prices of the available works; and also an emerging artist will be more likely to be willing to go along with a get-rich-quick scheme. Plus, if they select artists with a simple style, who create work with (all due respect) the look of an escaped mental patient, the work itself has no complex skill or artistic talent behind it, etc, so it will be less likely to have real appeal to the average person; that will mean there's less chance it will be desirable to a wider (and real) market on its own merit. The market for the artist's work will be 99% reliant on The Syndicate. They then put works into auction and create a series of ridiculously high prices, that make it look like the work of this artist is taking off (but perhaps not even finalising the sales and payments on these high hammer results). All auction results for the chosen artist have to be high now. Behind the auction scenes, in private sales, The Syndicate start offering works to collectors, relying largely on hype and FOMO, offering them at prices below what works are selling for at auction. New buyers and collectors think they're getting a good deal because they're getting (apparently) desirable works for a good price, perhaps even buying from source, and the auction results suggest prices for this artist are only going up and up, happy days, so they buy; perhaps with an agreement not to sell for 2 years (so The Syndicate can control the supply and price of available works, and don't have to artificially inflate the price of works they don't own at auction) At some point, The Syndicate pulls the plug on the scheme, walking away with the money from all the new collectors (investors). With The Syndicate not there to artificially prop up prices, auction results plummet, the market for the artist drops, and the new collectors are left with works that will never sell for a profit now, meaning they've lost money. The Syndicate moves on to another unknown artist, and repeat. Is that how it goes?
So, let me see if I've got this right. Some shady wealthy people (they're all shady), we'll call them The Syndicate, select an unknown artist, largely because there'll be limited work already out there, so they can control the flow and prices of the available works; and also an emerging artist will be more likely to be willing to go along with a get-rich-quick scheme. Plus, if they select artists with a simple style, who create work with (all due respect) the look of an escaped mental patient, the work itself has no complex skill or artistic talent behind it, etc, so it will be less likely to have real appeal to the average person; that will mean there's less chance it will be desirable to a wider (and real) market on its own merit. The market for the artist's work will be 99% reliant on The Syndicate. They then put works into auction and create a series of ridiculously high prices, that make it look like the work of this artist is taking off (but perhaps not even finalising the sales and payments on these high hammer results). All auction results for the chosen artist have to be high now. Behind the auction scenes, in private sales, The Syndicate start offering works to collectors, relying largely on hype and FOMO, offering them at prices below what works are selling for at auction. New buyers and collectors think they're getting a good deal because they're getting (apparently) desirable works for a good price, perhaps even buying from source, and the auction results suggest prices for this artist are only going up and up, happy days, so they buy; perhaps with an agreement not to sell for 2 years (so The Syndicate can control the supply and price of available works, and don't have to artificially inflate the price of works they don't own at auction) At some point, The Syndicate pulls the plug on the scheme, walking away with the money from all the new collectors (investors). With The Syndicate not there to artificially prop up prices, auction results plummet, the market for the artist drops, and the new collectors are left with works that will never sell for a profit now, meaning they've lost money. The Syndicate moves on to another unknown artist, and repeat. Is that how it goes? Spot on. The sales pitch goes a little something like, oh I have access to this really hot emerging artist (I can buy from his/her studio at primary prices), their large canvases are like £20-30k but selling for £200k at auction. Can’t get any right now but I’ll let you know when I get access. Few weeks later call back collector, oh you’re in luck, studio has given me access to 4-5 canvases, but you need to move quickly, oh and you can’t resell for 2-5 years. After 2-5 years you’ve got a door stop as thousands of canvases been sold auction prices are no longer being supported by the scammers and everyone wants out. That’s basically it. |
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LJCal
Junior Member
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December 2019
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 12:08:15 GMT 1, Just one of several investment pump and dumps which have been massive frauds. Willem, McCormick, Babaar, Ismail to name a few (some of these are still in the pump but ass will fall out soon). Collectors have lost millions between them, I know some individuals who have lost tens to hundreds of thousands and been left with worthless doorstops. We all know the galleries involved and I'm quite happy to call this out as criminal because I know what's gone on, seriously people should go to jail for this shit. In the background there's some seriously rich fucking scum bags involved, total shits with billions whose names begin with N. Personally I fucked some of these clowns when they were still in the pump phase of one of their many schemes, and made them buy their worthless doorstops back off me at auction 1 month later, for twice the price plus pay a fuck tonne of auction fees, cost them at least hundred grand plus. Felt great TBH but in realty they've schemed tens of millions doing this shit, so drop in the ocean (some of the backers have made billions over decades of doing this crooked shit). But guys serious lesson, do not give auction results too much weight especially with emerging artists, people on here obsess over auction results and treat them as gospel. I know all the shit that goes on, from shill schemes like this, to buyers bidding up works with sock puppet accounts and then defaulting (will still show as a sale). Conversely bad results don't tell the full story either, most sales go on in private and an artists private sale market can at times behave very differently to their auction sales (in fact it's this reason these schemes exist). But it comes back to the age old lesson if it's too good to be true it probably is. Likelihood is if you're getting offered works at 25% below (crazily inflated) auction prices from an artist that's come from nowhere, with a 2 year no resale you're being scammed. If you have the balls and contacts at the auction houses you can always stick it to the thieves by wiping your ass with their no resale agreement and selling it in next auction, likelihood is that if they're invested they'll have to buy it for way more money to keep the ponzy scheme alive, not without risks this. Best advice is avoid and buy artists with proper track records through established reputable galleries, if you want emerging buy cheap and ideally direct from studio. You 100% right on this, gallery like madox, Waterhouse & Dodd etc and few auctions house are in all of this. you can big in auction to 200k and never paid and nothing will happened… those scammer ask you to signed 2/3 year not reselling contract and in this time is when they making the money, when you time is coming to sale the price is worth 80% lest than what I bought.
Just one of several investment pump and dumps which have been massive frauds. Willem, McCormick, Babaar, Ismail to name a few (some of these are still in the pump but ass will fall out soon). Collectors have lost millions between them, I know some individuals who have lost tens to hundreds of thousands and been left with worthless doorstops. We all know the galleries involved and I'm quite happy to call this out as criminal because I know what's gone on, seriously people should go to jail for this shit. In the background there's some seriously rich fucking scum bags involved, total shits with billions whose names begin with N. Personally I fucked some of these clowns when they were still in the pump phase of one of their many schemes, and made them buy their worthless doorstops back off me at auction 1 month later, for twice the price plus pay a fuck tonne of auction fees, cost them at least hundred grand plus. Felt great TBH but in realty they've schemed tens of millions doing this shit, so drop in the ocean (some of the backers have made billions over decades of doing this crooked shit). But guys serious lesson, do not give auction results too much weight especially with emerging artists, people on here obsess over auction results and treat them as gospel. I know all the shit that goes on, from shill schemes like this, to buyers bidding up works with sock puppet accounts and then defaulting (will still show as a sale). Conversely bad results don't tell the full story either, most sales go on in private and an artists private sale market can at times behave very differently to their auction sales (in fact it's this reason these schemes exist). But it comes back to the age old lesson if it's too good to be true it probably is. Likelihood is if you're getting offered works at 25% below (crazily inflated) auction prices from an artist that's come from nowhere, with a 2 year no resale you're being scammed. If you have the balls and contacts at the auction houses you can always stick it to the thieves by wiping your ass with their no resale agreement and selling it in next auction, likelihood is that if they're invested they'll have to buy it for way more money to keep the ponzy scheme alive, not without risks this. Best advice is avoid and buy artists with proper track records through established reputable galleries, if you want emerging buy cheap and ideally direct from studio. You 100% right on this, gallery like madox, Waterhouse & Dodd etc and few auctions house are in all of this. you can big in auction to 200k and never paid and nothing will happened… those scammer ask you to signed 2/3 year not reselling contract and in this time is when they making the money, when you time is coming to sale the price is worth 80% lest than what I bought. I’m not naming names of galleries but if people have some spare time, take a look at an artist called Raghav Babaar, he only just did his masters a year ago and his works are going for $500k at auction. Look at who is behind him and follow the bread crumbs and names will start popping up, galleries and individuals. Do the same with some of the other artists, and you’ll start seeing links. Basically there’s lots of data publicly that if you start to put together starts telling a big part of the story. |
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by Terry Fuckwitt on Apr 20, 2024 12:09:48 GMT 1, I must be very naive, as I had no idea this went on with small lesser known artists on this sort of scale.
I don't understand how or where they begin the manipulation and hype though. Is it through forums like this?
To get the artworks into Christies or Sothebys in the first place can't be easy, without having solid evidence of high secondary market sales
I must be very naive, as I had no idea this went on with small lesser known artists on this sort of scale.
I don't understand how or where they begin the manipulation and hype though. Is it through forums like this?
To get the artworks into Christies or Sothebys in the first place can't be easy, without having solid evidence of high secondary market sales
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LJCal
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,979
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December 2019
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 12:16:58 GMT 1, I'm just super interested by the mechanics of this. So talking hard data, I've plotted all the auction results on Artsy since he first appeared in May 2022 until today. There's 51 results with prices - three of these were brought in (Nov 2022, Mar 2023 and Mar 2024) and in total there were US$4,859,655 of sales with fees. A few of these were less than 20k aside from the recent one, including in Mar 2023 and two in Dec 2023. So what's the play here? Are all $5m in sales by the syndicate or only a bunch of them? And are they just selling to themselves, unless third parties jump in (so the only loss is auction fees)? Are the low results where the syndicate decided to let market forces set price / they weren't sales initiated by them? I know eg the Warhol market is controlled by effectively 5 players who have a syndicate to ensure his prices meet a certain threshold (including buying in underperforming works), but just intrigued how a pump and dump works with emerging ones. 
I'm just super interested by the mechanics of this. So talking hard data, I've plotted all the auction results on Artsy since he first appeared in May 2022 until today. There's 51 results with prices - three of these were brought in (Nov 2022, Mar 2023 and Mar 2024) and in total there were US$4,859,655 of sales with fees. A few of these were less than 20k aside from the recent one, including in Mar 2023 and two in Dec 2023. So what's the play here? Are all $5m in sales by the syndicate or only a bunch of them? And are they just selling to themselves, unless third parties jump in (so the only loss is auction fees)? Are the low results where the syndicate decided to let market forces set price / they weren't sales initiated by them? I know eg the Warhol market is controlled by effectively 5 players who have a syndicate to ensure his prices meet a certain threshold (including buying in underperforming works), but just intrigued how a pump and dump works with emerging ones. What goes on with larger blue chip artists is not quite the same, yes there are whales or major primary galleries who will support their works at auction but it’s not a big criminal conspiracy, it’s more like a big company doing share buy backs. I’m not saying certain big collectors don’t seek to manipulate but it’s much harder given the supply is all over the place and the size of the market is much bigger. If an artist has been in the game decades, hit big career mile stones and has seen a few ups and down it’s safer to assume it’s not a pump and dump, most pump and dumps have a 2-3 year timeline and then it’s curtains for the artist’s market |
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LJCal
Junior Member
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December 2019
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 12:23:03 GMT 1, I must be very naive, as I had no idea this went on with small lesser known artists on this sort of scale. I don't understand how or where they begin the manipulation and hype though. Is it through forums like this? To get the artworks into Christies or Sothebys in the first place can't be easy, without having solid evidence of high secondary market sales
I must be very naive, as I had no idea this went on with small lesser known artists on this sort of scale. I don't understand how or where they begin the manipulation and hype though. Is it through forums like this? To get the artworks into Christies or Sothebys in the first place can't be easy, without having solid evidence of high secondary market sales Through boiler room investment galleries with large mailing lists of wealthy collectors. If you’re a whale who puts millions through the auction houses a year getting them to test out an emerging artist at an online sale is relatively easy. For example, hey young auction house associate here is a really nice Richter work on paper, a Gormley sculpture, oh and I’ve just bought into this really interesting young artist, can you you try him/her at an emerging sale at low estimate? Me and my buddies have been buying into them. |
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by Terry Fuckwitt on Apr 20, 2024 12:34:47 GMT 1, I must be very naive, as I had no idea this went on with small lesser known artists on this sort of scale. I don't understand how or where they begin the manipulation and hype though. Is it through forums like this? To get the artworks into Christies or Sothebys in the first place can't be easy, without having solid evidence of high secondary market sales Through boiler room investment galleries with large mailing lists of wealthy collectors. If you’re a whole who puts millions through the auction houses a year getting them to test out an emerging artist at an online sale is relatively easy. For example, hey young associate here is a really nice Richter work on paper, a Gormley sculpture, oh and I’ve just bought into this really interesting young artist, can you you try him/her at an emerging sale at low estimate? Me and my buddies have been buying into them.
So there we go kids... Always remember buy art you like and not what Maddox likes
I must be very naive, as I had no idea this went on with small lesser known artists on this sort of scale. I don't understand how or where they begin the manipulation and hype though. Is it through forums like this? To get the artworks into Christies or Sothebys in the first place can't be easy, without having solid evidence of high secondary market sales Through boiler room investment galleries with large mailing lists of wealthy collectors. If you’re a whole who puts millions through the auction houses a year getting them to test out an emerging artist at an online sale is relatively easy. For example, hey young associate here is a really nice Richter work on paper, a Gormley sculpture, oh and I’ve just bought into this really interesting young artist, can you you try him/her at an emerging sale at low estimate? Me and my buddies have been buying into them. I see, all makes sense. So there we go kids... Always remember buy art you like and not what Maddox likes |
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kjg
Junior Member
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December 2014
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by kjg on Apr 20, 2024 12:43:08 GMT 1, Now I am really curious about the amount of members on here that bought Willlem’s artworks.
Now I am really curious about the amount of members on here that bought Willlem’s artworks.
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drip
Junior Member
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February 2015
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by drip on Apr 20, 2024 12:53:32 GMT 1, Well you're allowed to actually like Albert Willem, and to buy his work. The problem only arises if you, a) bought solely for investment, or, b) you ended up overpaying because The Syndicate had inflated prices when you bought.
I have no doubt that all the artists boosted by this shadowy scheme have genuine fans.
Well you're allowed to actually like Albert Willem, and to buy his work. The problem only arises if you, a) bought solely for investment, or, b) you ended up overpaying because The Syndicate had inflated prices when you bought.
I have no doubt that all the artists boosted by this shadowy scheme have genuine fans.
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drip
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,419
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February 2015
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by drip on Apr 20, 2024 13:13:09 GMT 1, You 100% right on this, gallery like madox, Waterhouse & Dodd etc and few auctions house are in all of this. you can big in auction to 200k and never paid and nothing will happened… those scammer ask you to signed 2/3 year not reselling contract and in this time is when they making the money, when you time is coming to sale the price is worth 80% lest than what I bought. I’m not naming names of galleries but if people have some spare time, take a look at an artist called Raghav Babaar, he only just did his masters a year ago and his works are going for $500k at auction. Look at who is behind him and follow the bread crumbs and names will start popping up, galleries and individuals. Do the same with some of the other artists, and you’ll start seeing links. Basically there’s lots of data publicly that if you start to put together starts telling a big part of the story.
You 100% right on this, gallery like madox, Waterhouse & Dodd etc and few auctions house are in all of this. you can big in auction to 200k and never paid and nothing will happened… those scammer ask you to signed 2/3 year not reselling contract and in this time is when they making the money, when you time is coming to sale the price is worth 80% lest than what I bought. I’m not naming names of galleries but if people have some spare time, take a look at an artist called Raghav Babaar, he only just did his masters a year ago and his works are going for $500k at auction. Look at who is behind him and follow the bread crumbs and names will start popping up, galleries and individuals. Do the same with some of the other artists, and you’ll start seeing links. Basically there’s lots of data publicly that if you start to put together starts telling a big part of the story. Man, I haven't seen an estimate that wrong since those conservatory fitters did that quote for the HS2 line. |
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by Acme Thunderer on Apr 20, 2024 13:41:44 GMT 1, I’m not naming names of galleries but if people have some spare time, take a look at an artist called Raghav Babaar, he only just did his masters a year ago and his works are going for $500k at auction. Look at who is behind him and follow the bread crumbs and names will start popping up, galleries and individuals. Do the same with some of the other artists, and you’ll start seeing links. Basically there’s lots of data publicly that if you start to put together starts telling a big part of the story. Man, I haven't seen an estimate that wrong since those conservatory fitters did that quote for the HS2 line.
I’m not naming names of galleries but if people have some spare time, take a look at an artist called Raghav Babaar, he only just did his masters a year ago and his works are going for $500k at auction. Look at who is behind him and follow the bread crumbs and names will start popping up, galleries and individuals. Do the same with some of the other artists, and you’ll start seeing links. Basically there’s lots of data publicly that if you start to put together starts telling a big part of the story. Man, I haven't seen an estimate that wrong since those conservatory fitters did that quote for the HS2 line. How cute that they must be sharing the same web designer.
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by Icecream Man on Apr 20, 2024 13:45:27 GMT 1, Now I am really curious about the amount of members on here that bought Willlem’s artworks.
Now I am really curious about the amount of members on here that bought Willlem’s artworks. I purchased directly from Albert in 2021. €250. |
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LJCal
Junior Member
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December 2019
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 13:56:08 GMT 1, Man, I haven't seen an estimate that wrong since those conservatory fitters did that quote for the HS2 line. How cute that they must be sharing the same web designer.
Man, I haven't seen an estimate that wrong since those conservatory fitters did that quote for the HS2 line. How cute that they must be sharing the same web designer.
It gets more interesting if you start looking at who is behind some of the galleries representing these people. Guys named for fraud and money laundering in the panama papers, members of the family sent to jail for fraud, but still billionaires. |
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LJCal
Junior Member
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December 2019
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 13:57:31 GMT 1, Well you're allowed to actually like Albert Willem, and to buy his work. The problem only arises if you, a) bought solely for investment, or, b) you ended up overpaying because The Syndicate had inflated prices when you bought. I have no doubt that all the artists boosted by this shadowy scheme have genuine fans.
Well you're allowed to actually like Albert Willem, and to buy his work. The problem only arises if you, a) bought solely for investment, or, b) you ended up overpaying because The Syndicate had inflated prices when you bought. I have no doubt that all the artists boosted by this shadowy scheme have genuine fans. Yeah a few of the artists are still decent and if their career followed a different path may have had a long term market and career. |
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LJCal
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,979
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December 2019
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 13:58:46 GMT 1, Now I am really curious about the amount of members on here that bought Willlem’s artworks. I purchased directly from Albert in 2021. €250.
Now I am really curious about the amount of members on here that bought Willlem’s artworks. I purchased directly from Albert in 2021. €250. Which still exceeds its intrinsic value. Another important concept to keep in mind. |
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RoboJ
Artist
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July 2015
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by RoboJ on Apr 20, 2024 14:15:12 GMT 1, I bought a piece directly from Albert when we spotted his work on instagram. Love his wit and humour. I had to sell when the prices shot up as the money could really help. However I still love his work and would buy again if I could afford it.
I bought a piece directly from Albert when we spotted his work on instagram. Love his wit and humour. I had to sell when the prices shot up as the money could really help. However I still love his work and would buy again if I could afford it.
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LJCal
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,979
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December 2019
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 14:40:19 GMT 1, I'm just super interested by the mechanics of this. So talking hard data, I've plotted all the auction results on Artsy since he first appeared in May 2022 until today. There's 51 results with prices - three of these were brought in (Nov 2022, Mar 2023 and Mar 2024) and in total there were US$4,859,655 of sales with fees. A few of these were less than 20k aside from the recent one, including in Mar 2023 and two in Dec 2023. So what's the play here? Are all $5m in sales by the syndicate or only a bunch of them? And are they just selling to themselves, unless third parties jump in (so the only loss is auction fees)? Are the low results where the syndicate decided to let market forces set price / they weren't sales initiated by them? I know eg the Warhol market is controlled by effectively 5 players who have a syndicate to ensure his prices meet a certain threshold (including buying in underperforming works), but just intrigued how a pump and dump works with emerging ones. I guess the idea is to sell and buy a fee works at auction for inflated prices ie 150k. The works are your own or your friends so you're only down auction fees and taxes. You hope that the trend will catch up. Prices are so high, I've heard Gagosian will represent him. At the same time you sell 30-40 works for a bargain 50k apiece. After a while everyone sees no show or gallery rep is gonna happen and prices dive.
I'm just super interested by the mechanics of this. So talking hard data, I've plotted all the auction results on Artsy since he first appeared in May 2022 until today. There's 51 results with prices - three of these were brought in (Nov 2022, Mar 2023 and Mar 2024) and in total there were US$4,859,655 of sales with fees. A few of these were less than 20k aside from the recent one, including in Mar 2023 and two in Dec 2023. So what's the play here? Are all $5m in sales by the syndicate or only a bunch of them? And are they just selling to themselves, unless third parties jump in (so the only loss is auction fees)? Are the low results where the syndicate decided to let market forces set price / they weren't sales initiated by them? I know eg the Warhol market is controlled by effectively 5 players who have a syndicate to ensure his prices meet a certain threshold (including buying in underperforming works), but just intrigued how a pump and dump works with emerging ones. I guess the idea is to sell and buy a fee works at auction for inflated prices ie 150k. The works are your own or your friends so you're only down auction fees and taxes. You hope that the trend will catch up. Prices are so high, I've heard Gagosian will represent him. At the same time you sell 30-40 works for a bargain 50k apiece. After a while everyone sees no show or gallery rep is gonna happen and prices dive. Basically yes, but multiply that number sold by 10x - 50x. Do the maths, say a thousand sold at £40,000 each (pay the artist say a few grand each), that's about £37m gross profit. Say you put £4 million of sales over 20-30 lots at auction over 3-4 year period, so £100-250k a lot. That's about £1 million in premiums, call it £2 million with all costs to be generous. Basically £35m to split between the financiers and galleries/dealers pumping and selling work. Tens of millions can be made on each artist for the galleries and the people funding it. |
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kfroms
Junior Member
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October 2011
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by kfroms on Apr 20, 2024 14:51:14 GMT 1, I can’t deny Schadenfreude for everyone who gets burnt by buying “hot” art to flip it.
5 digits or more for these Albert Willem paintings? Seriously? How gullible can one be?
Anyway, it will happen again. :-)
I can’t deny Schadenfreude for everyone who gets burnt by buying “hot” art to flip it.
5 digits or more for these Albert Willem paintings? Seriously? How gullible can one be?
Anyway, it will happen again. :-)
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LJCal
Junior Member
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December 2019
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 14:54:43 GMT 1, I can’t deny Schadenfreude for everyone who gets burnt by buying “hot” art to flip it. 5 digits or more for these Albert Willem paintings? Seriously? How gullible can one be? Anyway, it will happen again. :-)
I can’t deny Schadenfreude for everyone who gets burnt by buying “hot” art to flip it. 5 digits or more for these Albert Willem paintings? Seriously? How gullible can one be? Anyway, it will happen again. :-) It's a variation of a scam that's been running for hundreds of years, basically a variation of the ponzy scheme but in these instances not even the collectors/investors who get in early get paid out. |
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kfroms
Junior Member
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October 2011
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by kfroms on Apr 20, 2024 14:58:03 GMT 1, I know.
And it will happen again - greed is such a such a good tool make people stop thinking.
I know.
And it will happen again - greed is such a such a good tool make people stop thinking.
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Wanchope
Junior Member
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February 2020
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by Wanchope on Apr 20, 2024 18:31:26 GMT 1, Now I am really curious about the amount of members on here that bought Willlem’s artworks.
Now I am really curious about the amount of members on here that bought Willlem’s artworks. I certainly tried to in 2021 through this forum but it was £500 and I thought it was fun and humorous. I never received it due to the courier losing it, but that’s life. Tried a few other forum members who suddenly wanted to hold onto which I don’t blame them as they were literally worth £20k upwards within a week or two of them being £500!!! Go figure |
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LJCal
Junior Member
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December 2019
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 18:45:01 GMT 1, Now I am really curious about the amount of members on here that bought Willlem’s artworks. I certainly tried to in 2021 through this forum but it was £500 and I thought it was fun and humorous. I never received it due to the courier losing it, but that’s life. Tried a few other forum members who suddenly wanted to hold onto which I don’t blame them as they were literally worth £20k upwards within a week or two of them being £500!!! Go figure
Now I am really curious about the amount of members on here that bought Willlem’s artworks. I certainly tried to in 2021 through this forum but it was £500 and I thought it was fun and humorous. I never received it due to the courier losing it, but that’s life. Tried a few other forum members who suddenly wanted to hold onto which I don’t blame them as they were literally worth £20k upwards within a week or two of them being £500!!! Go figure My advice to those people now, is to call Sotebys, Christie's, Phillips Monday and beg to get a slot in the next available at auction (may have to wait a while), set it at no reserve and hope to fuck whoever buys it actually pays. |
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Dice
Junior Member
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October 2011
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by Dice on Apr 20, 2024 18:58:27 GMT 1, One thing that would help surely would be auction websites showing a work as unsold if the buyer didn’t pay. Shouldn’t be able to get away with pretending it sold.
One thing that would help surely would be auction websites showing a work as unsold if the buyer didn’t pay. Shouldn’t be able to get away with pretending it sold.
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orchid
Junior Member
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May 2018
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by orchid on Apr 20, 2024 18:59:41 GMT 1, This is why people are buying back into blue chip or established artists with a record
This is why people are buying back into blue chip or established artists with a record
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Harveyn
Full Member
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July 2007
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by Harveyn on Apr 20, 2024 19:29:00 GMT 1, Art for many is just a commodity and the market is manipulated by not just this type of shenanigans. For instance top end galleries placing works in institutions so their artists profile is improved and they can command higher prices. Another form of manipulation just a little more subtle.
Art for many is just a commodity and the market is manipulated by not just this type of shenanigans. For instance top end galleries placing works in institutions so their artists profile is improved and they can command higher prices. Another form of manipulation just a little more subtle.
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LJCal
Junior Member
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December 2019
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 19:31:32 GMT 1, One thing that would help surely would be auction websites showing a work as unsold if the buyer didn’t pay. Shouldn’t be able to get away with pretending it sold.
One thing that would help surely would be auction websites showing a work as unsold if the buyer didn’t pay. Shouldn’t be able to get away with pretending it sold. I fully agree but they’re in no rush to do this, it would effect their sell through rate, and % of sales over high/mid estimate. Whilst the idea that the art market is wholly unregulated is a popular misunderstanding, certainly the way auction houses operate is well below the legal and moral standards of many other markets. Sothebys and Christie’s were already prosecuted for price fixing (their fees still look remarkably similar even following prosecution) however there is probably many other shady business practises that would come to light with a little more oversight. |
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Wanchope
Junior Member
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February 2020
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by Wanchope on Apr 20, 2024 22:43:17 GMT 1, One thing that would help surely would be auction websites showing a work as unsold if the buyer didn’t pay. Shouldn’t be able to get away with pretending it sold. I fully agree but they’re in no rush to do this, it would effect their sell through rate, and % of sales over high/mid estimate. Whilst the idea that the art market is wholly unregulated is a popular misunderstanding, certainly the way auction houses operate is well below the legal and moral standards of many other markets. Sothebys and Christie’s were already prosecuted for price fixing (their fees still look remarkably similar even following prosecution) however there is probably many other shady business practises that would come to light with a little more oversight.
One thing that would help surely would be auction websites showing a work as unsold if the buyer didn’t pay. Shouldn’t be able to get away with pretending it sold. I fully agree but they’re in no rush to do this, it would effect their sell through rate, and % of sales over high/mid estimate. Whilst the idea that the art market is wholly unregulated is a popular misunderstanding, certainly the way auction houses operate is well below the legal and moral standards of many other markets. Sothebys and Christie’s were already prosecuted for price fixing (their fees still look remarkably similar even following prosecution) however there is probably many other shady business practises that would come to light with a little more oversight. I guess when you sell a property, it should hit Land Registry within 6 months and you can see the price paid. Basically it gets logged and I’m stunned that the same isn’t done in the art world. When you think they are the price of a small flat all the way up to huge mansions and yet art is not being publicly recorded and divulged. Every year I learn another truth regarding auction houses. To know all of this goes on in the top tiers pisses me off & when you think of the BP %’s they charge!!! Anyway rant over, for now ……….🤣 |
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sevrin
New Member
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February 2022
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by sevrin on Apr 21, 2024 0:12:26 GMT 1, I fully agree but they’re in no rush to do this, it would effect their sell through rate, and % of sales over high/mid estimate. Whilst the idea that the art market is wholly unregulated is a popular misunderstanding, certainly the way auction houses operate is well below the legal and moral standards of many other markets. Sothebys and Christie’s were already prosecuted for price fixing (their fees still look remarkably similar even following prosecution) however there is probably many other shady business practises that would come to light with a little more oversight. I guess when you sell a property, it should hit Land Registry within 6 months and you can see the price paid. Basically it gets logged and I’m stunned that the same isn’t done in the art world. When you think they are the price of a small flat all the way up to huge mansions and yet art is not being publicly recorded and divulged. Every year I learn another truth regarding auction houses. To know all of this goes on in the top tiers pisses me off & when you think of the BP %’s they charge!!! Anyway rant over, for now ……….🤣 
I fully agree but they’re in no rush to do this, it would effect their sell through rate, and % of sales over high/mid estimate. Whilst the idea that the art market is wholly unregulated is a popular misunderstanding, certainly the way auction houses operate is well below the legal and moral standards of many other markets. Sothebys and Christie’s were already prosecuted for price fixing (their fees still look remarkably similar even following prosecution) however there is probably many other shady business practises that would come to light with a little more oversight. I guess when you sell a property, it should hit Land Registry within 6 months and you can see the price paid. Basically it gets logged and I’m stunned that the same isn’t done in the art world. When you think they are the price of a small flat all the way up to huge mansions and yet art is not being publicly recorded and divulged. Every year I learn another truth regarding auction houses. To know all of this goes on in the top tiers pisses me off & when you think of the BP %’s they charge!!! Anyway rant over, for now ……….🤣 Appreciate your ranting...have a great sunday....... |
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LJCal
Junior Member
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December 2019
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by LJCal on Apr 21, 2024 2:10:15 GMT 1, I fully agree but they’re in no rush to do this, it would effect their sell through rate, and % of sales over high/mid estimate. Whilst the idea that the art market is wholly unregulated is a popular misunderstanding, certainly the way auction houses operate is well below the legal and moral standards of many other markets. Sothebys and Christie’s were already prosecuted for price fixing (their fees still look remarkably similar even following prosecution) however there is probably many other shady business practises that would come to light with a little more oversight. I guess when you sell a property, it should hit Land Registry within 6 months and you can see the price paid. Basically it gets logged and I’m stunned that the same isn’t done in the art world. When you think they are the price of a small flat all the way up to huge mansions and yet art is not being publicly recorded and divulged. Every year I learn another truth regarding auction houses. To know all of this goes on in the top tiers pisses me off & when you think of the BP %’s they charge!!! Anyway rant over, for now ……….🤣
I fully agree but they’re in no rush to do this, it would effect their sell through rate, and % of sales over high/mid estimate. Whilst the idea that the art market is wholly unregulated is a popular misunderstanding, certainly the way auction houses operate is well below the legal and moral standards of many other markets. Sothebys and Christie’s were already prosecuted for price fixing (their fees still look remarkably similar even following prosecution) however there is probably many other shady business practises that would come to light with a little more oversight. I guess when you sell a property, it should hit Land Registry within 6 months and you can see the price paid. Basically it gets logged and I’m stunned that the same isn’t done in the art world. When you think they are the price of a small flat all the way up to huge mansions and yet art is not being publicly recorded and divulged. Every year I learn another truth regarding auction houses. To know all of this goes on in the top tiers pisses me off & when you think of the BP %’s they charge!!! Anyway rant over, for now ……….🤣 I think given the global nature of art, the fact that it’s portable and that anyone can crate a new work of art at any given time make it tough. They could introduce a public register of sales for works over a certain threshold sold by auction houses and art market participants, requiring them to register the terms of each sales alongside the buyer/seller details, it would be by no means comprehensive but would make frauds like this much more difficult. It would also however kill the market, billions would move out of the art market if this happened, anonymity and discretion are what makes art attractive. I expect what would happen is that most galleries and auction houses would setup in like Dubai and operate from there and places that introduced such a register would lose huge volumes of sales. |
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klaus69
New Member
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June 2020
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Albert Willem 🇧🇪 New Paintings • Art For Sale & Wanted, by klaus69 on Apr 21, 2024 9:11:44 GMT 1, Just one of several investment pump and dumps which have been massive frauds. Willem, McCormick, Babaar, Ismail to name a few (some of these are still in the pump but ass will fall out soon).
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Just one of several investment pump and dumps which have been massive frauds. Willem, McCormick, Babaar, Ismail to name a few (some of these are still in the pump but ass will fall out soon). Here is the last auction result of Ismail. Someone paid a lot of money for this not so long ago: www.phillips.com/detail/isshaq-ismail/UK010324/130![]() |
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