dmandpenfold
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,466
Likes โข 10
December 2006
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by dmandpenfold on Jul 15, 2008 21:31:34 GMT 1, dont be bloody daft, michelangelo did cherubs in the 15th century, doesn't mean nobody else can.... If anything by your statement micallef's over done it by doing too many...Collateral Damage, God i Want to be Bad, Judgement Day, Preparation for Paradise, the Campaigners 1, The Worshipper, i don't think your image of Campaigners 2 really counts as a cherub any way, he's got hooves and horns.
eelus cherubs were on the street in Nov 2006, nearly a year before Micallef's LA show but that doesnt matter, the cherub pieces by both artists are equally valid, they're somewhat different in style, sophistication and message, I like them all..
Neither eelus or micallef have copied each other, jumped on some cherub bandwagon, or missed a boat; micallef has explored the theme in numerous pieces over recent years and eelus is offering up one of his earlier readily recognisable classic street images as a print...at last..simple as that
dont be bloody daft, michelangelo did cherubs in the 15th century, doesn't mean nobody else can.... If anything by your statement micallef's over done it by doing too many...Collateral Damage, God i Want to be Bad, Judgement Day, Preparation for Paradise, the Campaigners 1, The Worshipper, i don't think your image of Campaigners 2 really counts as a cherub any way, he's got hooves and horns.
eelus cherubs were on the street in Nov 2006, nearly a year before Micallef's LA show but that doesnt matter, the cherub pieces by both artists are equally valid, they're somewhat different in style, sophistication and message, I like them all..
Neither eelus or micallef have copied each other, jumped on some cherub bandwagon, or missed a boat; micallef has explored the theme in numerous pieces over recent years and eelus is offering up one of his earlier readily recognisable classic street images as a print...at last..simple as that
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by grantb on Jul 15, 2008 22:01:12 GMT 1, yer he got that spot on ^ i agree on neither micallef and eelus are the same style.
yer he got that spot on ^ i agree on neither micallef and eelus are the same style.
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by Happy Shopper on Jul 15, 2008 22:08:19 GMT 1, Just ordered Cherub and Tiffany. Great images. His best so far. I'm surprised he released them together though, but perhaps there's a reason? Strike while the iron's hot. Wish I had a canvas though !!!
Just ordered Cherub and Tiffany. Great images. His best so far. I'm surprised he released them together though, but perhaps there's a reason? Strike while the iron's hot. Wish I had a canvas though !!!
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dslug
New Member
Posts โข 616
Likes โข 2
September 2007
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by dslug on Jul 15, 2008 23:35:43 GMT 1, Eelus is currently in Dublin for the stella dore show,I will be taking some shots of his street work tomorrow night and posting them in the stella dore/eine Dublin thread but here is a quick taster taken on a mobile (tomorrow will be on a better camera)
Eelus is currently in Dublin for the stella dore show,I will be taking some shots of his street work tomorrow night and posting them in the stella dore/eine Dublin thread but here is a quick taster taken on a mobile (tomorrow will be on a better camera)
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ruat caelum
New Member
Posts โข 110
Likes โข 0
June 2007
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by ruat caelum on Jul 15, 2008 23:51:11 GMT 1, dont be bloody daft, michelangelo did cherubs in the 15th century, doesn't mean nobody else can.... If anything by your statement micallef's over done it by doing too many...Collateral Damage, God i Want to be Bad, Judgement Day, Preparation for Paradise, the Campaigners 1, The Worshipper, i don't think your image of Campaigners 2 really counts as a cherub any way, he's got hooves and horns. eelus cherubs were on the street in Nov 2006, nearly a year before Micallef's LA show but that doesnt matter, the cherub pieces by both artists are equally valid, they're somewhat different in style, sophistication and message, I like them all.. Neither eelus or micallef have copied each other, jumped on some cherub bandwagon, or missed a boat; micallef has explored the theme in numerous pieces over recent years and eelus is offering up one of his earlier readily recognisable classic street images as a print...at last..simple as that
I shall try not to be bloody daft, dmandpenfold. I am grateful for your sound advice.
As you say, Micallef has explored this theme in numerous pieces over the last few years, at least since 2005. He has taken the use of cherub, angel, demon and devil imagery about as far as it can go for the time being without crossing over into complete parody.
Given the above, I remain of the view that the release by Eelus now of 'Cheeky Cherub' is just too late. As already mentioned, the relevance and strength of the piece is diminished (if not lost) by the prevalence of Micallef's work covering a similar subject matter.
I would be making the same comments about Micallef if he suddenly released Star Wars-themed material. This would be the case even if Micallef had been creating (but not releasing) Star Wars imagery since he was 16. Of course, the fact that Eelus has done it, doesn't mean "nobody else can". However, it does expose anyone else who tries to accusations that it's been done by others, it's been seen, and it would have been preferable just to move on to something new. The boat already left the harbour.
dont be bloody daft, michelangelo did cherubs in the 15th century, doesn't mean nobody else can.... If anything by your statement micallef's over done it by doing too many...Collateral Damage, God i Want to be Bad, Judgement Day, Preparation for Paradise, the Campaigners 1, The Worshipper, i don't think your image of Campaigners 2 really counts as a cherub any way, he's got hooves and horns. eelus cherubs were on the street in Nov 2006, nearly a year before Micallef's LA show but that doesnt matter, the cherub pieces by both artists are equally valid, they're somewhat different in style, sophistication and message, I like them all.. Neither eelus or micallef have copied each other, jumped on some cherub bandwagon, or missed a boat; micallef has explored the theme in numerous pieces over recent years and eelus is offering up one of his earlier readily recognisable classic street images as a print...at last..simple as that I shall try not to be bloody daft, dmandpenfold. I am grateful for your sound advice. As you say, Micallef has explored this theme in numerous pieces over the last few years, at least since 2005. He has taken the use of cherub, angel, demon and devil imagery about as far as it can go for the time being without crossing over into complete parody. Given the above, I remain of the view that the release by Eelus now of ' Cheeky Cherub' is just too late. As already mentioned, the relevance and strength of the piece is diminished (if not lost) by the prevalence of Micallef's work covering a similar subject matter. I would be making the same comments about Micallef if he suddenly released Star Wars-themed material. This would be the case even if Micallef had been creating (but not releasing) Star Wars imagery since he was 16. Of course, the fact that Eelus has done it, doesn't mean "nobody else can". However, it does expose anyone else who tries to accusations that it's been done by others, it's been seen, and it would have been preferable just to move on to something new. The boat already left the harbour.
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by paulypaul on Jul 16, 2008 0:01:22 GMT 1, GENTLEMEN!!! Wot is occuring??? Is this a discussion about the artistic merits of a piece and analysis of recent developments within an artist'sportfolio...!
Sorry, lads, not once was price or flippability mentioned so , please, move along and take your high falluting (sic?) ponciness elsewhere...!
Geezus! Next thing you know and they'll ALL be doin' it...
GENTLEMEN!!! Wot is occuring??? Is this a discussion about the artistic merits of a piece and analysis of recent developments within an artist'sportfolio...!
Sorry, lads, not once was price or flippability mentioned so , please, move along and take your high falluting (sic?) ponciness elsewhere...!
Geezus! Next thing you know and they'll ALL be doin' it...
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by grantb on Jul 16, 2008 1:23:42 GMT 1, that image new image? Where was that gathered from?
that image new image? Where was that gathered from?
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Heavyconsumer
Junior Member
Posts โข 4,974
Likes โข 5
February 2008
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by Heavyconsumer on Jul 16, 2008 2:09:34 GMT 1, dont be bloody daft, michelangelo did cherubs in the 15th century, doesn't mean nobody else can.... If anything by your statement micallef's over done it by doing too many...Collateral Damage, God i Want to be Bad, Judgement Day, Preparation for Paradise, the Campaigners 1, The Worshipper, i don't think your image of Campaigners 2 really counts as a cherub any way, he's got hooves and horns. eelus cherubs were on the street in Nov 2006, nearly a year before Micallef's LA show but that doesnt matter, the cherub pieces by both artists are equally valid, they're somewhat different in style, sophistication and message, I like them all.. Neither eelus or micallef have copied each other, jumped on some cherub bandwagon, or missed a boat; micallef has explored the theme in numerous pieces over recent years and eelus is offering up one of his earlier readily recognisable classic street images as a print...at last..simple as that I shall try not to be bloody daft, dmandpenfold. I am grateful for your sound advice. As you say, Micallef has explored this theme in numerous pieces over the last few years, at least since 2005. He has taken the use of cherub, angel, demon and devil imagery about as far as it can go for the time being without crossing over into complete parody. Given the above, I remain of the view that the release by Eelus now of ' Cheeky Cherub' is just too late. As already mentioned, the relevance and strength of the piece is diminished (if not lost) by the prevalence of Micallef's work covering a similar subject matter. I would be making the same comments about Micallef if he suddenly released Star Wars-themed material. This would be the case even if Micallef had been creating (but not releasing) Star Wars imagery since he was 16. Of course, the fact that Eelus has done it, doesn't mean "nobody else can". However, it does expose anyone else who tries to accusations that it's been done by others, it's been seen, and it would have been preferable just to move on to something new. The boat already left the harbour.
Interesting debate chaps. May I butt in by asking, can the boat ever have left the harbour, so long as an artist is being true to his/her own inspirations/development of style/pleasure/other needs? Yes, by taking on or continuing with a theme, recently tackled by one of their peers, they are opening themselves to more direct comparison with that peer, but so long as they are being true to themsleves and producing/releasing what they feel is of merit, then what else matters? After all, as PP points out, you're discussing the merits of the work, rather than it's success as a product!
dont be bloody daft, michelangelo did cherubs in the 15th century, doesn't mean nobody else can.... If anything by your statement micallef's over done it by doing too many...Collateral Damage, God i Want to be Bad, Judgement Day, Preparation for Paradise, the Campaigners 1, The Worshipper, i don't think your image of Campaigners 2 really counts as a cherub any way, he's got hooves and horns. eelus cherubs were on the street in Nov 2006, nearly a year before Micallef's LA show but that doesnt matter, the cherub pieces by both artists are equally valid, they're somewhat different in style, sophistication and message, I like them all.. Neither eelus or micallef have copied each other, jumped on some cherub bandwagon, or missed a boat; micallef has explored the theme in numerous pieces over recent years and eelus is offering up one of his earlier readily recognisable classic street images as a print...at last..simple as that I shall try not to be bloody daft, dmandpenfold. I am grateful for your sound advice. As you say, Micallef has explored this theme in numerous pieces over the last few years, at least since 2005. He has taken the use of cherub, angel, demon and devil imagery about as far as it can go for the time being without crossing over into complete parody. Given the above, I remain of the view that the release by Eelus now of ' Cheeky Cherub' is just too late. As already mentioned, the relevance and strength of the piece is diminished (if not lost) by the prevalence of Micallef's work covering a similar subject matter. I would be making the same comments about Micallef if he suddenly released Star Wars-themed material. This would be the case even if Micallef had been creating (but not releasing) Star Wars imagery since he was 16. Of course, the fact that Eelus has done it, doesn't mean "nobody else can". However, it does expose anyone else who tries to accusations that it's been done by others, it's been seen, and it would have been preferable just to move on to something new. The boat already left the harbour. Interesting debate chaps. May I butt in by asking, can the boat ever have left the harbour, so long as an artist is being true to his/her own inspirations/development of style/pleasure/other needs? Yes, by taking on or continuing with a theme, recently tackled by one of their peers, they are opening themselves to more direct comparison with that peer, but so long as they are being true to themsleves and producing/releasing what they feel is of merit, then what else matters? After all, as PP points out, you're discussing the merits of the work, rather than it's success as a product!
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Heavyconsumer
Junior Member
Posts โข 4,974
Likes โข 5
February 2008
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by Heavyconsumer on Jul 16, 2008 2:10:40 GMT 1, What I meant to say was, how much do you reckon punters will pay for these in November? Should I buy one? ;D
What I meant to say was, how much do you reckon punters will pay for these in November? Should I buy one? ;D
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ruat caelum
New Member
Posts โข 110
Likes โข 0
June 2007
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by ruat caelum on Jul 16, 2008 4:16:28 GMT 1, I shall try not to be bloody daft, dmandpenfold. I am grateful for your sound advice. As you say, Micallef has explored this theme in numerous pieces over the last few years, at least since 2005. He has taken the use of cherub, angel, demon and devil imagery about as far as it can go for the time being without crossing over into complete parody. Given the above, I remain of the view that the release by Eelus now of ' Cheeky Cherub' is just too late. As already mentioned, the relevance and strength of the piece is diminished (if not lost) by the prevalence of Micallef's work covering a similar subject matter. I would be making the same comments about Micallef if he suddenly released Star Wars-themed material. This would be the case even if Micallef had been creating (but not releasing) Star Wars imagery since he was 16. Of course, the fact that Eelus has done it, doesn't mean "nobody else can". However, it does expose anyone else who tries to accusations that it's been done by others, it's been seen, and it would have been preferable just to move on to something new. The boat already left the harbour. Interesting debate chaps. May I butt in by asking, can the boat ever have left the harbour, so long as an artist is being true to his/her own inspirations/development of style/pleasure/other needs? Yes of course, by taking on or continuing with a theme, recently tackled by one of their peers, they are opening themselves to more direct comparison with that peer (maybe more beneficial or less so, depending on which of which 2 artists is in question), but so long as they are being true to themsleves and producing/releasing what they feel is of merit, then what else matters? After all, as PP points out, you're discussing the merits of the work, rather than it's success as a product!
If an artist is happy living in a vacuum or a bubble, completely disregarding the views of the public and focussing solely on "being true" to him or herself, then you have a point. Nothing else may matter.
However, I have yet to meet such an artist. Those I know want their work to be seen and appreciated, usually by as many people as possible. If they wish to be relevant as artists, they therefore need to be conscious of and take into consideration what other artists have already done or are currently doing.
I suspect that most artists also aspire either to do something which hasn't been done before, or to take an existing style/concept/theme/subject matter to a new level or direction. If not, then they probably at least wish to be seen to be doing so.
Here's a concrete but exaggerated example:
It's 2008 and I've been living on a deserted island for 20 years, without access to computers, television, newspapers, or other media sources. I decide to become a conceptual artist and I come up with something great.
My idea is to stick a big shark or some livestock in tanks filled with formaldehyde. I will then call this art. I'm very excited about and proud of this idea (which I came up with on my own, without any external influences). It will annoy a lot of people but, more importantly, challenge their perceptions of what constitutes art.
I don't have the resources and materials to create this work on my beloved desert island, so I travel back to my former home of London. Once there, I discover email and PCs, hear Nirvana for the first time, find out the Berlin Wall has come down and the USSR is no longer. I then pick up an art book and start reading about the YBA movement. Shit. My heart suddenly sinks and I feel slightly sick to my stomach.
Do I carry on with my shark in formaldehyde idea?
The answer is no. Not if I want to look in the mirror and still call myself an artist. Not if I want my work to be relevant to other people. It was my idea also, but much of its merit lay in its novelty. I missed the boat. The best thing I can do now is work on different idea.
I shall try not to be bloody daft, dmandpenfold. I am grateful for your sound advice. As you say, Micallef has explored this theme in numerous pieces over the last few years, at least since 2005. He has taken the use of cherub, angel, demon and devil imagery about as far as it can go for the time being without crossing over into complete parody. Given the above, I remain of the view that the release by Eelus now of ' Cheeky Cherub' is just too late. As already mentioned, the relevance and strength of the piece is diminished (if not lost) by the prevalence of Micallef's work covering a similar subject matter. I would be making the same comments about Micallef if he suddenly released Star Wars-themed material. This would be the case even if Micallef had been creating (but not releasing) Star Wars imagery since he was 16. Of course, the fact that Eelus has done it, doesn't mean "nobody else can". However, it does expose anyone else who tries to accusations that it's been done by others, it's been seen, and it would have been preferable just to move on to something new. The boat already left the harbour. Interesting debate chaps. May I butt in by asking, can the boat ever have left the harbour, so long as an artist is being true to his/her own inspirations/development of style/pleasure/other needs? Yes of course, by taking on or continuing with a theme, recently tackled by one of their peers, they are opening themselves to more direct comparison with that peer (maybe more beneficial or less so, depending on which of which 2 artists is in question), but so long as they are being true to themsleves and producing/releasing what they feel is of merit, then what else matters? After all, as PP points out, you're discussing the merits of the work, rather than it's success as a product! If an artist is happy living in a vacuum or a bubble, completely disregarding the views of the public and focussing solely on "being true" to him or herself, then you have a point. Nothing else may matter. However, I have yet to meet such an artist. Those I know want their work to be seen and appreciated, usually by as many people as possible. If they wish to be relevant as artists, they therefore need to be conscious of and take into consideration what other artists have already done or are currently doing. I suspect that most artists also aspire either to do something which hasn't been done before, or to take an existing style/concept/theme/subject matter to a new level or direction. If not, then they probably at least wish to be seen to be doing so. Here's a concrete but exaggerated example: It's 2008 and I've been living on a deserted island for 20 years, without access to computers, television, newspapers, or other media sources. I decide to become a conceptual artist and I come up with something great. My idea is to stick a big shark or some livestock in tanks filled with formaldehyde. I will then call this art. I'm very excited about and proud of this idea (which I came up with on my own, without any external influences). It will annoy a lot of people but, more importantly, challenge their perceptions of what constitutes art. I don't have the resources and materials to create this work on my beloved desert island, so I travel back to my former home of London. Once there, I discover email and PCs, hear Nirvana for the first time, find out the Berlin Wall has come down and the USSR is no longer. I then pick up an art book and start reading about the YBA movement. Sh it. My heart suddenly sinks and I feel slightly sick to my stomach. Do I carry on with my shark in formaldehyde idea? The answer is no. Not if I want to look in the mirror and still call myself an artist. Not if I want my work to be relevant to other people. It was my idea also, but much of its merit lay in its novelty. I missed the boat. The best thing I can do now is work on different idea.
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by paulypaul on Jul 16, 2008 7:17:29 GMT 1, That's an interesting point. What I do is take the original idea (it means SOOOO much...) and expand/change/modify the original concept using the new influences (Nirvana, internet, 2 girls/one cup) and allow those new experiences to inform the work.
If we wend our way back far enought, through Eelus and Micallef it could be argued that the original 'thought' for pieces like this was 'Golf Sale'. the cherub is manifestation of the selfless but ultimately futile nature of 'goodness and selfless-ness', as exemplified by the orignal 'real life' indivdual in Tianamen Sq...
I once saw a wonderful piece in the Museum of Modern Art in Brisbane which was a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy.....etc. With it was another piece where a person was shown an image and asked to draw it. Someone else then drew the copy and someone else drew the copy etc etc etc.
Are they the same thing??? Yes (copy of a copy)? No (different machinery/comment?
Hmmm....
That's an interesting point. What I do is take the original idea (it means SOOOO much...) and expand/change/modify the original concept using the new influences (Nirvana, internet, 2 girls/one cup) and allow those new experiences to inform the work.
If we wend our way back far enought, through Eelus and Micallef it could be argued that the original 'thought' for pieces like this was 'Golf Sale'. the cherub is manifestation of the selfless but ultimately futile nature of 'goodness and selfless-ness', as exemplified by the orignal 'real life' indivdual in Tianamen Sq...
I once saw a wonderful piece in the Museum of Modern Art in Brisbane which was a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy.....etc. With it was another piece where a person was shown an image and asked to draw it. Someone else then drew the copy and someone else drew the copy etc etc etc.
Are they the same thing??? Yes (copy of a copy)? No (different machinery/comment?
Hmmm....
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Heavyconsumer
Junior Member
Posts โข 4,974
Likes โข 5
February 2008
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by Heavyconsumer on Jul 16, 2008 7:21:41 GMT 1, RC, while I see your point, I can't help but feel you may be mixing 2 issues, which in my perhaps simplistic, romantic and naive view, should be kept seperate in theory. Artistic integrity and market forces appear to be more interlinked in your post than in the purists' reality imo. Unless you're saying that because someone else has attempted the same subject, it invalidates one's own creativity, which also doesn't seem 100% plausible to me (as a non-artist). After all, my shark and yours may end up looking distinctly different, even if, at first glance they appear pretty similar.
An artist recently commented in writing to me, that he felt that pandering to the market was/is, in effect a betrayal of his art. He went on to say that this attitude led him to feel more satisfied with his product and more appreciative when people bought his work, because they were really buying HIS art - his expression. It made sense to me at the time of reading and gained further respect from me. Admitedly, that artist is not a wealthy man, but he's still young and hopefully has a long time to keep doing what he loves!!!
RC, while I see your point, I can't help but feel you may be mixing 2 issues, which in my perhaps simplistic, romantic and naive view, should be kept seperate in theory. Artistic integrity and market forces appear to be more interlinked in your post than in the purists' reality imo. Unless you're saying that because someone else has attempted the same subject, it invalidates one's own creativity, which also doesn't seem 100% plausible to me (as a non-artist). After all, my shark and yours may end up looking distinctly different, even if, at first glance they appear pretty similar. An artist recently commented in writing to me, that he felt that pandering to the market was/is, in effect a betrayal of his art. He went on to say that this attitude led him to feel more satisfied with his product and more appreciative when people bought his work, because they were really buying HIS art - his expression. It made sense to me at the time of reading and gained further respect from me. Admitedly, that artist is not a wealthy man, but he's still young and hopefully has a long time to keep doing what he loves!!!
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ruat caelum
New Member
Posts โข 110
Likes โข 0
June 2007
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by ruat caelum on Jul 16, 2008 8:10:18 GMT 1, RC, while I see your point, I can't help but feel you may be mixing 2 issues, which in my perhaps simplistic, romantic and naive view, should be kept seperate in theory. Artistic integrity and market forces appear to be more interlinked in your post than in the purists' reality imo. Unless you're saying that because someone else has attempted the same subject, it invalidates one's own creativity, which also doesn't seem 100% plausible to me (as a non-artist). After all, my shark and yours may end up looking distinctly different, even if, at first glance they appear pretty similar. An artist recently commented in writing to me, that he felt that pandering to the market was/is, in effect a betrayal of his art. He went on to say that this attitude led him to feel more satisfied with his product and more appreciative when people bought his work, because they were really buying HIS art - his expression. It made sense to me at the time of reading and gained further respect from me. Admitedly, that artist is not a wealthy man, but he's still young and hopefully has a long time to keep doing what he loves!!!
Duly noted, heavyconsumer, although I should stress that my comments were made without consideration to market forces (at least not in the commercial/financial sense).
My focus was on artistic integrity (the artist's perspective) but also on artistic relevance and importance (the viewing public's perspective, which some may also describe as a "market force" even when there is no money involved).
As referred to in your post above, my argument would be that, if someone else has explored the same subject, it does indeed cancel out (to a greater or lesser extent) the significance of your own creativity unless you have been able to take that subject to a new level or in significantly different direction.
This is how I would judge myself if I were an artist. It is also why I tend to be quite vocal in my criticism of artwork that I consider to be derivative, even if it does demonstrate a certain technical skill.
RC, while I see your point, I can't help but feel you may be mixing 2 issues, which in my perhaps simplistic, romantic and naive view, should be kept seperate in theory. Artistic integrity and market forces appear to be more interlinked in your post than in the purists' reality imo. Unless you're saying that because someone else has attempted the same subject, it invalidates one's own creativity, which also doesn't seem 100% plausible to me (as a non-artist). After all, my shark and yours may end up looking distinctly different, even if, at first glance they appear pretty similar. An artist recently commented in writing to me, that he felt that pandering to the market was/is, in effect a betrayal of his art. He went on to say that this attitude led him to feel more satisfied with his product and more appreciative when people bought his work, because they were really buying HIS art - his expression. It made sense to me at the time of reading and gained further respect from me. Admitedly, that artist is not a wealthy man, but he's still young and hopefully has a long time to keep doing what he loves!!! Duly noted, heavyconsumer, although I should stress that my comments were made without consideration to market forces (at least not in the commercial/financial sense). My focus was on artistic integrity (the artist's perspective) but also on artistic relevance and importance (the viewing public's perspective, which some may also describe as a "market force" even when there is no money involved). As referred to in your post above, my argument would be that, if someone else has explored the same subject, it does indeed cancel out (to a greater or lesser extent) the significance of your own creativity unless you have been able to take that subject to a new level or in significantly different direction. This is how I would judge myself if I were an artist. It is also why I tend to be quite vocal in my criticism of artwork that I consider to be derivative, even if it does demonstrate a certain technical skill.
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ruat caelum
New Member
Posts โข 110
Likes โข 0
June 2007
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by ruat caelum on Jul 16, 2008 8:34:35 GMT 1, That's an interesting point. What I do is take the original idea (it means SOOOO much...) and expand/change/modify the original concept using the new influences (Nirvana, internet, 2 girls/one cup) and allow those new experiences to inform the work. If we wend our way back far enought, through Eelus and Micallef it could be argued that the original 'thought' for pieces like this was 'Golf Sale'. the cherub is manifestation of the selfless but ultimately futile nature of 'goodness and selfless-ness', as exemplified by the orignal 'real life' indivdual in Tianamen Sq... I once saw a wonderful piece in the Museum of Modern Art in Brisbane which was a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy.....etc. With it was another piece where a person was shown an image and asked to draw it. Someone else then drew the copy and someone else drew the copy etc etc etc. Are they the same thing??? Yes (copy of a copy)? No (different machinery/comment? Hmmm....
I want to hear more about the manner in which your original concepts have been modified through the influence of '2 girls 1 cup'.
That's an interesting point. What I do is take the original idea (it means SOOOO much...) and expand/change/modify the original concept using the new influences (Nirvana, internet, 2 girls/one cup) and allow those new experiences to inform the work. If we wend our way back far enought, through Eelus and Micallef it could be argued that the original 'thought' for pieces like this was 'Golf Sale'. the cherub is manifestation of the selfless but ultimately futile nature of 'goodness and selfless-ness', as exemplified by the orignal 'real life' indivdual in Tianamen Sq... I once saw a wonderful piece in the Museum of Modern Art in Brisbane which was a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy.....etc. With it was another piece where a person was shown an image and asked to draw it. Someone else then drew the copy and someone else drew the copy etc etc etc. Are they the same thing??? Yes (copy of a copy)? No (different machinery/comment? Hmmm.... I want to hear more about the manner in which your original concepts have been modified through the influence of ' 2 girls 1 cup'.
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by Happy Shopper on Jul 16, 2008 11:50:08 GMT 1, my argument would be that, if someone else has explored the same subject, it does indeed cancel out (to a greater or lesser extent) the significance of your own creativity unless you have been able to take that subject to a new level or in significantly different direction.
That 2 people have the same idea means nothing to anybodies creativity.
That Banksy did Beggars and Rats doesn't alter the creativity of Blek doing them too. Or the other way around. C215 paints beggars as well. All done for the right reasons, and all good.
my argument would be that, if someone else has explored the same subject, it does indeed cancel out (to a greater or lesser extent) the significance of your own creativity unless you have been able to take that subject to a new level or in significantly different direction. That 2 people have the same idea means nothing to anybodies creativity. That Banksy did Beggars and Rats doesn't alter the creativity of Blek doing them too. Or the other way around. C215 paints beggars as well. All done for the right reasons, and all good.
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by Happy Shopper on Jul 16, 2008 11:52:01 GMT 1, The line is drawn where, for example, one artist does fucked up banknotes, and other artists just do the same only differently. That's just boring.
The line is drawn where, for example, one artist does fucked up banknotes, and other artists just do the same only differently. That's just boring.
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daveart
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February 2008
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by daveart on Jul 16, 2008 12:53:21 GMT 1, one problem with the shark example is people have been putting animals, insects, human parts,etc in bottles of goo for a long long time. i am sure many scientists have arrangements of critters in their labs the look at as 'art' or pleasing displays of their collections. Hirst simply 'copied' that on a bit scale and called it 'art' ... each to their own ... but there really are not that many 'new' ideas in the world.
one problem with the shark example is people have been putting animals, insects, human parts,etc in bottles of goo for a long long time. i am sure many scientists have arrangements of critters in their labs the look at as 'art' or pleasing displays of their collections. Hirst simply 'copied' that on a bit scale and called it 'art' ... each to their own ... but there really are not that many 'new' ideas in the world.
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ruat caelum
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June 2007
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by ruat caelum on Jul 16, 2008 15:12:22 GMT 1, one problem with the shark example is people have been putting animals, insects, human parts,etc in bottles of goo for a long long time. i am sure many scientists have arrangements of critters in their labs the look at as 'art' or pleasing displays of their collections. Hirst simply 'copied' that on a bit scale and called it 'art' ... each to their own ... but there really are not that many 'new' ideas in the world.
The crucial point with the shark piece was less the creation of something new than the recontextualision of an object (in this case, a dead shark) as "art". That was Hirst's main artistic intent, and it is this, combined with the scale of the pieces, which made his formaldehyde work interesting.
[So that the original argument does not lose its focus, I am intentionally not discussing here the accusations of plagiarism against Hirst (which, on the whole, I consider valid), including the fact that the Stuckists had hung a shark in a Shoreditch shop window two years before 'The Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living' was first exhibited at the Saatchi Gallery.]
Although a different medium is used with the works in formaldehyde, it is the same or a similar concept to Hirst's medicine cabinet pieces, Richard Prince's recontextualisation of images from magazine advertisements and, going further back, Marcel Duchamp's 'Fountain'.
one problem with the shark example is people have been putting animals, insects, human parts,etc in bottles of goo for a long long time. i am sure many scientists have arrangements of critters in their labs the look at as 'art' or pleasing displays of their collections. Hirst simply 'copied' that on a bit scale and called it 'art' ... each to their own ... but there really are not that many 'new' ideas in the world. The crucial point with the shark piece was less the creation of something new than the recontextualision of an object (in this case, a dead shark) as "art". That was Hirst's main artistic intent, and it is this, combined with the scale of the pieces, which made his formaldehyde work interesting. [So that the original argument does not lose its focus, I am intentionally not discussing here the accusations of plagiarism against Hirst (which, on the whole, I consider valid), including the fact that the Stuckists had hung a shark in a Shoreditch shop window two years before ' The Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living' was first exhibited at the Saatchi Gallery.] Although a different medium is used with the works in formaldehyde, it is the same or a similar concept to Hirst's medicine cabinet pieces, Richard Prince's recontextualisation of images from magazine advertisements and, going further back, Marcel Duchamp's ' Fountain'.
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ruat caelum
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June 2007
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by ruat caelum on Jul 16, 2008 15:32:15 GMT 1, my argument would be that, if someone else has explored the same subject, it does indeed cancel out (to a greater or lesser extent) the significance of your own creativity unless you have been able to take that subject to a new level or in significantly different direction. That 2 people have the same idea means nothing to anybodies creativity. That Banksy did Beggars and Rats doesn't alter the creativity of Blek doing them too. Or the other way around. C215 paints beggars as well. All done for the right reasons, and all good.
When you say "All done for the right reasons", what exactly do you mean, and how do you know what those reasons are?
Let's take your argument and push it a bit further, using the subject matter of beggars as an example:
If it was not just Blek, Banksy and C215 using beggars in their work, but 20 other contemporary street artists doing the same, would the argument still hold? Even if it could be determined that all the work was done "for the right reasons", would you still claim that the significance of each artist's creativity had not been lessened?
my argument would be that, if someone else has explored the same subject, it does indeed cancel out (to a greater or lesser extent) the significance of your own creativity unless you have been able to take that subject to a new level or in significantly different direction. That 2 people have the same idea means nothing to anybodies creativity. That Banksy did Beggars and Rats doesn't alter the creativity of Blek doing them too. Or the other way around. C215 paints beggars as well. All done for the right reasons, and all good. When you say "All done for the right reasons", what exactly do you mean, and how do you know what those reasons are? Let's take your argument and push it a bit further, using the subject matter of beggars as an example: If it was not just Blek, Banksy and C215 using beggars in their work, but 20 other contemporary street artists doing the same, would the argument still hold? Even if it could be determined that all the work was done "for the right reasons", would you still claim that the significance of each artist's creativity had not been lessened?
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by Happy Shopper on Jul 16, 2008 20:40:45 GMT 1, When you say "All done for the right reasons", what exactly do you mean, and how do you know what those reasons are? Let's take your argument and push it a bit further, using the subject matter of beggars as an example: If it was not just Blek, Banksy and C215 using beggars in their work, but 20 other contemporary street artists doing the same, would the argument still hold? Even if it could be determined that all the work was done "for the right reasons", would you still claim that the significance of each artist's creativity had not been lessened?
"The right reason" is doing it with artistic integrity.
Quantity of Beggars as subjects doesn't matter, it's the thought each took. An artists credibility shouldn't be defined my a single piece of work any way.
There are universal subjects, like poverty that artists will always draw on. Another is subverting "good" things to be "bad". So angels doing rude things, and countless Mickey Mouse's shagging Minny !!!
So there's good ideas, bad ideas, and sometimes just plain obvious ideas that everybody tries once.
Of course, ripping other artists off is another matter... punishable by forum death!
When you say "All done for the right reasons", what exactly do you mean, and how do you know what those reasons are? Let's take your argument and push it a bit further, using the subject matter of beggars as an example: If it was not just Blek, Banksy and C215 using beggars in their work, but 20 other contemporary street artists doing the same, would the argument still hold? Even if it could be determined that all the work was done "for the right reasons", would you still claim that the significance of each artist's creativity had not been lessened? "The right reason" is doing it with artistic integrity. Quantity of Beggars as subjects doesn't matter, it's the thought each took. An artists credibility shouldn't be defined my a single piece of work any way. There are universal subjects, like poverty that artists will always draw on. Another is subverting "good" things to be "bad". So angels doing rude things, and countless Mickey Mouse's shagging Minny !!! So there's good ideas, bad ideas, and sometimes just plain obvious ideas that everybody tries once. Of course, ripping other artists off is another matter... punishable by forum death!
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Grubster
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August 2008
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by Grubster on Aug 28, 2008 6:46:53 GMT 1, I have followed his work now for the past year and like his recent work, a lot. Especially the stuff from the can's festival (cheeky cherub and tiffany for breakfast). great detail in his stenciling and unique style.
Does any1 have any other thoughts on his work and or what he's doing as of recent, street or gallery?
peace
signedandnumberedstudios.com
I have followed his work now for the past year and like his recent work, a lot. Especially the stuff from the can's festival (cheeky cherub and tiffany for breakfast). great detail in his stenciling and unique style. Does any1 have any other thoughts on his work and or what he's doing as of recent, street or gallery? peace signedandnumberedstudios.com
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Heavyconsumer
Junior Member
Posts โข 4,974
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February 2008
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by Heavyconsumer on Aug 28, 2008 7:46:45 GMT 1, can't wait to see Raivenhaired as a print (if it ever happens). It would definitly be the 1st Eelus print I'f be interested in buying. I think some of his other work is ammusing or interesting, but not enough to want to own it. I know he has a lot of avid fans on here though. I do also have a lot of respect for him keeping pricing sensible, even after selling out of so many editions. If he were the greedy type, he could get away with asking for a bit more imo. Good on him!
can't wait to see Raivenhaired as a print (if it ever happens). It would definitly be the 1st Eelus print I'f be interested in buying. I think some of his other work is ammusing or interesting, but not enough to want to own it. I know he has a lot of avid fans on here though. I do also have a lot of respect for him keeping pricing sensible, even after selling out of so many editions. If he were the greedy type, he could get away with asking for a bit more imo. Good on him!
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mcster
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October 2007
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by mcster on Aug 28, 2008 7:52:20 GMT 1, I think he's cool, especially now he's moved away from all the Star Wars stuff. Much as it was amusing at first, I was worried he'd be a one trick pony, which now he clearly is not...
I think he's cool, especially now he's moved away from all the Star Wars stuff. Much as it was amusing at first, I was worried he'd be a one trick pony, which now he clearly is not...
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robinbanks
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October 2007
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by robinbanks on Aug 28, 2008 7:58:00 GMT 1, I really like the new direction his work is going in. The old Star Wars stuff did nothing for me at all - in fact it reminded me of some of the tatty joke t-shirts you get down the market. His new stuff has much more atmosphere - it engages you a lot more and in my opinion can be classed as proper 'art'.
I really like the new direction his work is going in. The old Star Wars stuff did nothing for me at all - in fact it reminded me of some of the tatty joke t-shirts you get down the market. His new stuff has much more atmosphere - it engages you a lot more and in my opinion can be classed as proper 'art'.
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mcster
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October 2007
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by mcster on Aug 28, 2008 8:01:27 GMT 1, I really like the new direction his work is going in. The old Star Wars stuff did nothing for me at all - in fact it reminded me of some of the tatty joke t-shirts you get down the market. His new stuff has much more atmosphere - it engages you a lot more and in my opinion can be classed as proper 'art'.
Totally agree - Eelus was one of the artists I used to see as a second rate Banksy rip off, but I stand corrected. What with seeing Pobel's piece on another thread, I am standing corrected a lot today ! ;D
I really like the new direction his work is going in. The old Star Wars stuff did nothing for me at all - in fact it reminded me of some of the tatty joke t-shirts you get down the market. His new stuff has much more atmosphere - it engages you a lot more and in my opinion can be classed as proper 'art'. Totally agree - Eelus was one of the artists I used to see as a second rate Banksy rip off, but I stand corrected. What with seeing Pobel's piece on another thread, I am standing corrected a lot today ! ;D
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lostplotter
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December 2007
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by lostplotter on Aug 28, 2008 8:42:52 GMT 1, I think he is a talented guy, and I can only see the quality of his work going upwards. Really looking forward to Ravenhaired as a print...as has been said already.... if it ever happens.....
I think he is a talented guy, and I can only see the quality of his work going upwards. Really looking forward to Ravenhaired as a print...as has been said already.... if it ever happens.....
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Ruggs
Full Member
Posts โข 8,958
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January 2008
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by Ruggs on Aug 28, 2008 8:43:17 GMT 1, I'm liking his newer stuff. I've recently purchased the Tiffany for Breakfast print and it's a very nice print. The colourways are fantastic. The Cheeky Cherub also looks great. I'm a bit surprised they're still available. I think his day will come!
I'm liking his newer stuff. I've recently purchased the Tiffany for Breakfast print and it's a very nice print. The colourways are fantastic. The Cheeky Cherub also looks great. I'm a bit surprised they're still available. I think his day will come!
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by Deleted on Aug 28, 2008 8:46:24 GMT 1, Agree! he's gettin better and better! tiffany for breakfast is great, ravenhaird can be a classic!
Agree! he's gettin better and better! tiffany for breakfast is great, ravenhaird can be a classic!
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by snakes on Aug 28, 2008 8:50:32 GMT 1, He is very good - the only downside with his new direction is that there are not enough colour-ways to choose from?
He is very good - the only downside with his new direction is that there are not enough colour-ways to choose from?
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Eelus ๐ฌ๐ง Print Release News โข Art For Sale, by griffermans on Aug 28, 2008 8:52:26 GMT 1, I like his new work, but his originals price has now gone out of reach.
I like his new work, but his originals price has now gone out of reach.
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