burgerman
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 195
๐๐ป 224
September 2015
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by burgerman on Dec 26, 2015 9:31:07 GMT 1, You have devalued the print by at least 250 pounds just in one post met in my eyes.
You have devalued the print by at least 250 pounds just in one post met in my eyes.
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tab1
Full Member
๐จ๏ธ 8,519
๐๐ป 3,679
September 2011
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by tab1 on Dec 26, 2015 10:24:27 GMT 1, You have devalued the print by at least 250 pounds just in one post met in my eyes.
Whats the price now then ?
You have devalued the print by at least 250 pounds just in one post met in my eyes. Whats the price now then ? |
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Geezer Mate
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,365
๐๐ป 1,606
November 2015
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by Geezer Mate on Dec 26, 2015 10:50:44 GMT 1, Can I have a photocopy for ยฃ1 please
Can I have a photocopy for ยฃ1 please
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Ruggs
Full Member
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January 2008
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by Ruggs on Dec 26, 2015 10:54:54 GMT 1, I know mikehapsey is a great guy to deal with and I 100% believe his VLH is a back door is what he says it is but I have to say met has posted some interesting and valuable information for any perspective buyer to be aware of. Not just this print but any you may have issues about. His comments are worthy of consideration before you commit to any Banksy purchase.
I know mikehapsey is a great guy to deal with and I 100% believe his VLH is a back door is what he says it is but I have to say met has posted some interesting and valuable information for any perspective buyer to be aware of. Not just this print but any you may have issues about. His comments are worthy of consideration before you commit to any Banksy purchase.
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craigf
Full Member
๐จ๏ธ 8,557
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May 2007
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by craigf on Dec 26, 2015 11:37:12 GMT 1, There are a lot fewer VLH backdoors out there, but they were still being printed in Brum at that pointWhat is the source of your information?
There are a lot fewer VLH backdoors out there, but they were still being printed in Brum at that pointWhat is the source of your information? The source is having been around at the time and speaking to the printers, is that good enough? |
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iamzero
Full Member
๐จ๏ธ 9,190
๐๐ป 8,545
May 2011
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by iamzero on Dec 26, 2015 11:49:28 GMT 1, I reckon Met has addressed valid points. Love that VLH though.
I reckon Met has addressed valid points. Love that VLH though.
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chads007
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 3,696
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December 2012
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by chads007 on Dec 26, 2015 11:56:57 GMT 1, His points are valid info to anyone new to these. As always, comes down to the individual to weigh up the information provided and make a decision whether or not to purchase and enjoy or not for what they are.
His points are valid info to anyone new to these. As always, comes down to the individual to weigh up the information provided and make a decision whether or not to purchase and enjoy or not for what they are.
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Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by Deleted on Dec 26, 2015 12:18:21 GMT 1, Another piece of worthless illegal illegitimate stolen tat not worth the paper it's printed on. Sadly, only ever sold on this board, a forum dedicated to the artist the work is stolen from. Odd hey, you'd think people would be against this sort of shameless & manipulative use of the forums members.
Merry Xmas !
Another piece of worthless illegal illegitimate stolen tat not worth the paper it's printed on. Sadly, only ever sold on this board, a forum dedicated to the artist the work is stolen from. Odd hey, you'd think people would be against this sort of shameless & manipulative use of the forums members.
Merry Xmas !
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mikehaspey
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,227
๐๐ป 845
July 2013
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by mikehaspey on Dec 26, 2015 12:52:30 GMT 1, As always the old backdoor debate... I bought it from a reputable and well known forum member for a lot more than it has now sold for.
Don't want to get started, it's all been said many times before on other threads.
It's now sold anyway so thanks for all interest and all comments. Some good / valid points but these things do exist in the market and not only on this forum - I've seen them sold by at least 2 UK galleries...
Merry Christmas.
As always the old backdoor debate... I bought it from a reputable and well known forum member for a lot more than it has now sold for.
Don't want to get started, it's all been said many times before on other threads.
It's now sold anyway so thanks for all interest and all comments. Some good / valid points but these things do exist in the market and not only on this forum - I've seen them sold by at least 2 UK galleries...
Merry Christmas.
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met
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,796
๐๐ป 6,762
June 2009
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by met on Dec 29, 2015 0:39:35 GMT 1, What is the source of your information? The source is having been around at the time and speaking to the printers, is that good enough?
Thank you for the confirmation, craigf.
If this is correct, then I believe there was no linear chronological division between (i) outsourcing and (ii) printing work being brought in-house.
Pictures On Walls was aware of the issue of backdoor prints quite early on โ probably by 2005. These were discussed on the old eBay.co.uk Banksy forum, around the time other concerns were arising (like the eBayer churning out all the knockoff Greenpeace Save or Delete posters, stickers and stamps, most of which are now being sold as genuine).
I was visiting POW's premises on one occasion (either Scrutton Street or Willow Street) when they were redoing a couple of I Fought the Law screenprints because of a mixup with an order. My recollection or impression was that other Banksy prints from around 2004-2007 were also produced in-house.
So rather than there being one cut-off point, it may be that outsourcing or printing in-house depended on the specific Banksy print, and that the decision taken was based on factors like:
(a) the technical difficulty of the relevant image (e.g. getting right a desired overspray effect);
(b) POW's printing schedule at various times and how busy it was with other printing work; and/or
(c) the availability of a capable in-house printer, like around the period Eine left.
What is the source of your information? The source is having been around at the time and speaking to the printers, is that good enough? Thank you for the confirmation, craigf. If this is correct, then I believe there was no linear chronological division between (i) outsourcing and (ii) printing work being brought in-house. Pictures On Walls was aware of the issue of backdoor prints quite early on โ probably by 2005. These were discussed on the old eBay.co.uk Banksy forum, around the time other concerns were arising (like the eBayer churning out all the knockoff Greenpeace Save or Delete posters, stickers and stamps, most of which are now being sold as genuine). I was visiting POW's premises on one occasion (either Scrutton Street or Willow Street) when they were redoing a couple of I Fought the Law screenprints because of a mixup with an order. My recollection or impression was that other Banksy prints from around 2004-2007 were also produced in-house. So rather than there being one cut-off point, it may be that outsourcing or printing in-house depended on the specific Banksy print, and that the decision taken was based on factors like: (a) the technical difficulty of the relevant image (e.g. getting right a desired overspray effect); (b) POW's printing schedule at various times and how busy it was with other printing work; and/or (c) the availability of a capable in-house printer, like around the period Eine left. |
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met
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,796
๐๐ป 6,762
June 2009
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by met on Dec 29, 2015 2:23:31 GMT 1, What are you on about? A sale thread for a supposed backdoor print is 1precisely the right place to get into the risks of buying a backdoor print. These risks are significant and, for the benefit of newcomers, they should be emphasised in any thread in which the subject of backdoor prints arises. The thing I find shameful is 2 people like you trying to quash legitimate discussion on the very threads where it's most relevant, most likely to be seen by potential buyers, and therefore of greatest benefit to potential buyers. It happens here far too often โ 3 attempts to brush real issues under the carpet to prioritise the financial interests of one's forum buddies (who are almost inevitably sellers) over the interests of less knowledgeable and less experienced forum members (the unfortunate collectors most likely to get shafted). If docean or other members 4 have concerns about the genuineness of this print, then they should not be forced to search around elsewhere on this vast message board for some other thread (among close to 100,000 existing threads) covering backdoor prints generally. A sales thread is def not the right place to discuss what a backdoor print is. 2 You have a problem with me, than please discuss in PM also, no idea what your problem is with people like me? (What does that even mean?). 3 I wasn't brushing anything under the carpet, i even told docean it was a great question and he should ask Mike about the print. 4 He didn't, he was asking what a backdoor print was. I think it is a bit silly to quote yourself, but you explanation on what backdoor prints are is quiet good, got to give you that. Why don't you write a separate thread with that information in it. So people can find that info in one place and don't need to search 100.000 threads. And to finish off some simple copy-past rules and guidelines for your reading pleasure : Posting and Sales Threads: 7. Forum Members should explore the forum and familiarise themselves with the wealth of information available to them and how it is structured. When creating new posts or threads members should do their best to place them in the correct Board or Thread. In order to maintain this structure and accessibility, Forum Staff reserve the right to move your Thread or Post to a more appropriate area if needed. - I don't think he searched the forum before asking the question, otherwise he would know what a backdoor print was.8. Threads should remain on topic, if you wish to start a separate discussion then please raise another thread. Similarly, members should not make posts with the intention of provoking or aggravating other members or inciting members to cause issue or distress on the forum. - The topic is selling a print, there are many topics about what backdoor prints are themselves. 11. In Sales Threads; please respect the Original Posterโs valuation. Whilst you may believe you have a valid opinion on what a sensible market value is, another memberโs For Sale Thread is not the place to debate the matter. If you have a differing view you should refer to the Price Check section and debate the matter there. - I told him that it was a great question, but there has been written many topics on backdoor prints already.I hope the new year will be without all the ranting and judging beforehand and i would like to take the time to wish you a Merry Xmas met
(And i think Mike needs a new proper sale thread, sorry for that.)
Your detailed response is appreciated and I'll reply in kind, referring to the points as you've helpfully numbered them above.
Apologies in advance for the wall of text. I recognise it's not very reader-friendly, and will break it down into two parts to make my replies a little more manageable.
PART I
1 A sales thread is def not the right place to discuss what a backdoor print is.
Here, you are blurring the distinction between different types of sale threads. They are not all the same, and it's foolish or dishonest to treat them as if they are.
Selling legitimate art is one thing; such work is non-contentious and there's less risk of forum members getting defrauded or misled.
However, the sale of a supposed backdoor print โ as with the sale of a street piece โ is an altogether different beast. In this case, there's a duty to also post clear reminders of what a genuine backdoor print really is, along with associated risks (no Pest Control COA; the considerable chances of ending up with a counterfeit) and ethical issues (the fact that if actually genuine, a backdoor print will, by definition, be stolen property). These warnings are justified to such an extent that they should be repeated in any thread in which backdoor prints are discussed.
Threads must not be viewed as if the membership of this forum were static. There is a constant influx of new members, with less knowledge and experience than both you and me. What's obvious to us after many years (e.g. how to carry out searches, especially for older threads), won't be obvious to someone with just 20 or 30 posts under their belt. After close to a decade here, even I still find manoeuvring around the forum and finding what I'm looking for to be perplexing at times.
2 You have a problem with me, than please discuss in PM also, no idea what your problem is with people like me? (What does that even mean?).
Private message? The fact a post may have been responding to you doesn't mean it was drafted for your sole benefit. My comments regarding public issues are deliberately public โ openness on such matters being in the highest interest of the forum. The idea is to allow the posts to be read by all members at all times.
[As an aside, I also never delete any of my posts. This is one of the rules I set for myself based on principle. What I put down in writing is therefore thought through beforehand, with an idea of permanence in mind. It means taking additional steps to ensure that:
(i) reasonable efforts are made to verify the accuracy of factual statements;
(ii) opinions expressed (critical ones in particular) are considered and fair; and
(iii) no post is likely to be a source of shame or embarrassment to me or people I care about, whether at the time of writing or in the near or distant future.]
I'm puzzled by the confusion you've expressed because my comment is clear and fully explained in the rest of that sentence. This includes why I believe the posts by you which I quoted (and other posts of a similar nature) are harmful.
3 I wasn't brushing anything under the carpet, i even told docean it was a great question and he should ask Mike about the print.
From my perspective, you were indeed trying to brush the issue under the carpet.
Whether it's scam artists, corporate corruption, political shenanigans or any other sleaze, they each work best if other people are left in the dark and isolated. So when trying to keep a lid on a situation and avoid the glare of public scrutiny, a very predictable tactic is to employ the familiar routine of, "Let's discuss this in private, rather than bother everyone else here with minor details we've all heard before."
It's an effective way of stopping people from communicating with each other and sharing information, which serves to hinder transparency. The added bonus for perpetrators is that they keep their true motives hidden, while at the same time maintaining a posture of helpfulness and appearing to be cooperative.
This is the reason the Fourth and Fifth Estates are so important. They bring the shรญt into the open and shine a huge spotlight on it. Where would we be if people were prevented from asking awkward questions and demanding that responses be made public? How effective would Zola have been if he'd written J'Accuse...! in a private letter to Fรฉlix Faure rather than as an open letter in L'Aurore?
Forgive the regurgitation, but here's a wonderful quote which our American friends first and foremost may recognise:
Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants; electric light the most efficient policeman.
โ Louis Brandeis
This reply was a long-winded way of saying I believe you're either kidding yourself or being disingenuous. But I'm fine with the two of us agreeing to disagree on the point.
4 He didn't, he was asking what a backdoor print was.
docean also had concerns about genuineness. Your reading of his posts is overly selective. And it wouldn't surprise me if other forum members had concerns about genuineness as well.
Even if the query had been restricted to what a backdoor print is, for the reasons explained in my reply to your point 1, the issue is serious enough to merit being addressed in each and every thread (sale thread or otherwise) in which the subject of backdoor prints arises.
[PART II to follow.]
What are you on about? A sale thread for a supposed backdoor print is 1precisely the right place to get into the risks of buying a backdoor print. These risks are significant and, for the benefit of newcomers, they should be emphasised in any thread in which the subject of backdoor prints arises. The thing I find shameful is 2 people like you trying to quash legitimate discussion on the very threads where it's most relevant, most likely to be seen by potential buyers, and therefore of greatest benefit to potential buyers. It happens here far too often โ 3 attempts to brush real issues under the carpet to prioritise the financial interests of one's forum buddies (who are almost inevitably sellers) over the interests of less knowledgeable and less experienced forum members (the unfortunate collectors most likely to get shafted). If docean or other members 4 have concerns about the genuineness of this print, then they should not be forced to search around elsewhere on this vast message board for some other thread (among close to 100,000 existing threads) covering backdoor prints generally. A sales thread is def not the right place to discuss what a backdoor print is. 2 You have a problem with me, than please discuss in PM also, no idea what your problem is with people like me? (What does that even mean?). 3 I wasn't brushing anything under the carpet, i even told docean it was a great question and he should ask Mike about the print. 4 He didn't, he was asking what a backdoor print was. I think it is a bit silly to quote yourself, but you explanation on what backdoor prints are is quiet good, got to give you that. Why don't you write a separate thread with that information in it. So people can find that info in one place and don't need to search 100.000 threads. And to finish off some simple copy-past rules and guidelines for your reading pleasure : Posting and Sales Threads: 7. Forum Members should explore the forum and familiarise themselves with the wealth of information available to them and how it is structured. When creating new posts or threads members should do their best to place them in the correct Board or Thread. In order to maintain this structure and accessibility, Forum Staff reserve the right to move your Thread or Post to a more appropriate area if needed. - I don't think he searched the forum before asking the question, otherwise he would know what a backdoor print was.8. Threads should remain on topic, if you wish to start a separate discussion then please raise another thread. Similarly, members should not make posts with the intention of provoking or aggravating other members or inciting members to cause issue or distress on the forum. - The topic is selling a print, there are many topics about what backdoor prints are themselves. 11. In Sales Threads; please respect the Original Posterโs valuation. Whilst you may believe you have a valid opinion on what a sensible market value is, another memberโs For Sale Thread is not the place to debate the matter. If you have a differing view you should refer to the Price Check section and debate the matter there. - I told him that it was a great question, but there has been written many topics on backdoor prints already.I hope the new year will be without all the ranting and judging beforehand and i would like to take the time to wish you a Merry Xmas met
(And i think Mike needs a new proper sale thread, sorry for that.)
Your detailed response is appreciated and I'll reply in kind, referring to the points as you've helpfully numbered them above. Apologies in advance for the wall of text. I recognise it's not very reader-friendly, and will break it down into two parts to make my replies a little more manageable. PART I1 A sales thread is def not the right place to discuss what a backdoor print is.Here, you are blurring the distinction between different types of sale threads. They are not all the same, and it's foolish or dishonest to treat them as if they are. Selling legitimate art is one thing; such work is non-contentious and there's less risk of forum members getting defrauded or misled. However, the sale of a supposed backdoor print โ as with the sale of a street piece โ is an altogether different beast. In this case, there's a duty to also post clear reminders of what a genuine backdoor print really is, along with associated risks (no Pest Control COA; the considerable chances of ending up with a counterfeit) and ethical issues (the fact that if actually genuine, a backdoor print will, by definition, be stolen property). These warnings are justified to such an extent that they should be repeated in any thread in which backdoor prints are discussed. Threads must not be viewed as if the membership of this forum were static. There is a constant influx of new members, with less knowledge and experience than both you and me. What's obvious to us after many years (e.g. how to carry out searches, especially for older threads), won't be obvious to someone with just 20 or 30 posts under their belt. After close to a decade here, even I still find manoeuvring around the forum and finding what I'm looking for to be perplexing at times. 2 You have a problem with me, than please discuss in PM also, no idea what your problem is with people like me? (What does that even mean?).Private message? The fact a post may have been responding to you doesn't mean it was drafted for your sole benefit. My comments regarding public issues are deliberately public โ openness on such matters being in the highest interest of the forum. The idea is to allow the posts to be read by all members at all times. [As an aside, I also never delete any of my posts. This is one of the rules I set for myself based on principle. What I put down in writing is therefore thought through beforehand, with an idea of permanence in mind. It means taking additional steps to ensure that:
(i) reasonable efforts are made to verify the accuracy of factual statements;
(ii) opinions expressed (critical ones in particular) are considered and fair; and
(iii) no post is likely to be a source of shame or embarrassment to me or people I care about, whether at the time of writing or in the near or distant future.]I'm puzzled by the confusion you've expressed because my comment is clear and fully explained in the rest of that sentence. This includes why I believe the posts by you which I quoted (and other posts of a similar nature) are harmful. 3 I wasn't brushing anything under the carpet, i even told docean it was a great question and he should ask Mike about the print.From my perspective, you were indeed trying to brush the issue under the carpet. Whether it's scam artists, corporate corruption, political shenanigans or any other sleaze, they each work best if other people are left in the dark and isolated. So when trying to keep a lid on a situation and avoid the glare of public scrutiny, a very predictable tactic is to employ the familiar routine of, "Let's discuss this in private, rather than bother everyone else here with minor details we've all heard before." It's an effective way of stopping people from communicating with each other and sharing information, which serves to hinder transparency. The added bonus for perpetrators is that they keep their true motives hidden, while at the same time maintaining a posture of helpfulness and appearing to be cooperative. This is the reason the Fourth and Fifth Estates are so important. They bring the shรญt into the open and shine a huge spotlight on it. Where would we be if people were prevented from asking awkward questions and demanding that responses be made public? How effective would Zola have been if he'd written J'Accuse...! in a private letter to Fรฉlix Faure rather than as an open letter in L'Aurore? Forgive the regurgitation, but here's a wonderful quote which our American friends first and foremost may recognise: Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants; electric light the most efficient policeman. โ Louis BrandeisThis reply was a long-winded way of saying I believe you're either kidding yourself or being disingenuous. But I'm fine with the two of us agreeing to disagree on the point. 4 He didn't, he was asking what a backdoor print was.docean also had concerns about genuineness. Your reading of his posts is overly selective. And it wouldn't surprise me if other forum members had concerns about genuineness as well. Even if the query had been restricted to what a backdoor print is, for the reasons explained in my reply to your point 1, the issue is serious enough to merit being addressed in each and every thread (sale thread or otherwise) in which the subject of backdoor prints arises. [PART II to follow.] |
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met
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,796
๐๐ป 6,762
June 2009
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by met on Dec 29, 2015 3:38:15 GMT 1, What are you on about? A sale thread for a supposed backdoor print is 1precisely the right place to get into the risks of buying a backdoor print. These risks are significant and, for the benefit of newcomers, they should be emphasised in any thread in which the subject of backdoor prints arises. The thing I find shameful is 2 people like you trying to quash legitimate discussion on the very threads where it's most relevant, most likely to be seen by potential buyers, and therefore of greatest benefit to potential buyers. It happens here far too often โ 3 attempts to brush real issues under the carpet to prioritise the financial interests of one's forum buddies (who are almost inevitably sellers) over the interests of less knowledgeable and less experienced forum members (the unfortunate collectors most likely to get shafted). If docean or other members 4 have concerns about the genuineness of this print, then they should not be forced to search around elsewhere on this vast message board for some other thread (among close to 100,000 existing threads) covering backdoor prints generally. A sales thread is def not the right place to discuss what a backdoor print is. 2 You have a problem with me, than please discuss in PM also, no idea what your problem is with people like me? (What does that even mean?). 3 I wasn't brushing anything under the carpet, i even told docean it was a great question and he should ask Mike about the print. 4 He didn't, he was asking what a backdoor print was. I think it is a bit silly to quote yourself, but you explanation on what backdoor prints are is quiet good, got to give you that. Why don't you write a separate thread with that information in it. So people can find that info in one place and don't need to search 100.000 threads. And to finish off some simple copy-past rules and guidelines for your reading pleasure : Posting and Sales Threads: 7. Forum Members should explore the forum and familiarise themselves with the wealth of information available to them and how it is structured. When creating new posts or threads members should do their best to place them in the correct Board or Thread. In order to maintain this structure and accessibility, Forum Staff reserve the right to move your Thread or Post to a more appropriate area if needed. - I don't think he searched the forum before asking the question, otherwise he would know what a backdoor print was.8. Threads should remain on topic, if you wish to start a separate discussion then please raise another thread. Similarly, members should not make posts with the intention of provoking or aggravating other members or inciting members to cause issue or distress on the forum. - The topic is selling a print, there are many topics about what backdoor prints are themselves. 11. In Sales Threads; please respect the Original Posterโs valuation. Whilst you may believe you have a valid opinion on what a sensible market value is, another memberโs For Sale Thread is not the place to debate the matter. If you have a differing view you should refer to the Price Check section and debate the matter there. - I told him that it was a great question, but there has been written many topics on backdoor prints already.I hope the new year will be without all the ranting and judging beforehand and i would like to take the time to wish you a Merry Xmas met
(And i think Mike needs a new proper sale thread, sorry for that.)
After addressing your points 1 to 4 in PART I, there follows my reply to the second half of your response regarding the three forum rules and guidelines you cited, along with what I've come to conclude from our exchange thus far.
PART II
7. - I don't think he searched the forum before asking the question, otherwise he would know what a backdoor print was.
You are misunderstanding the primary purpose of rule / guideline 7, which relates to the structure of the forum. Separately, I have no issue with any member asking the different questions docean did (especially on the subject of backdoor prints, for the reasons already mentioned in my reply to your point 1). Full responses to those questions would benefit not only him, but other members who may also be unfamiliar with the subject.
[As a secondary general remark (alluded to as well in my reply to your point 1), I believe new members deserve to be treated with patience and given some slack when it comes to forum guidelines.]
8. - The topic is selling a print, there are many topics about what backdoor prints are themselves.
The topic is the sale of a backdoor print. A discussion about backdoor prints more broadly, the counterfeits existing on the market, and the provenance of the supposed backdoor print being sold, is on topic. It is all part of the same discussion.
I'll repeat an earlier observation for emphasis: This is a case of "legitimate discussion on the very threads where it's most relevant, most likely to be seen by potential buyers, and therefore of greatest benefit to potential buyers."
Attempts to artificially separate elements of that conversation are not only unhelpful, but damaging. They are damaging to everyone on this forum, with the exception of the individual seller, i.e. the person who's trying to offload either a counterfeit print or a stolen print.
11. - I told him that it was a great question, but there has been written many topics on backdoor prints already.
Rule / guideline 11 is not applicable here, and your reference to it is a non sequitur. There weren't any comments about price; the seller didn't even list one.
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I hope the new year will be without all the ranting and judging beforehand and i would like to take the time to wish you a Merry Xmas met
There has been no "judging beforehand"; my comments were simply based on what you wrote. Although it's a minor point, I found your reference to "ranting" unfortunate. It felt like a dismissive, distraction tactic and an attempt to, once again, brush real issues under the carpet or to otherwise gloss over or ignore them.
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Stepping back and trying to summarise the situation, I think what we have here (besides different values or moral codes) is just conflicting priorities:
1. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that your priority is the protection of the financial interests of your friend, Mike Haspey / mikehaspey .
2. The priority for me is trying to help inform other members who may know less about backdoor prints and associated risks and issues. The ultimate aim is preventing people from getting shafted. Or, if they choose to get shafted regardless, to make sure their eyes are open and to check they've got condoms.
What are you on about? A sale thread for a supposed backdoor print is 1precisely the right place to get into the risks of buying a backdoor print. These risks are significant and, for the benefit of newcomers, they should be emphasised in any thread in which the subject of backdoor prints arises. The thing I find shameful is 2 people like you trying to quash legitimate discussion on the very threads where it's most relevant, most likely to be seen by potential buyers, and therefore of greatest benefit to potential buyers. It happens here far too often โ 3 attempts to brush real issues under the carpet to prioritise the financial interests of one's forum buddies (who are almost inevitably sellers) over the interests of less knowledgeable and less experienced forum members (the unfortunate collectors most likely to get shafted). If docean or other members 4 have concerns about the genuineness of this print, then they should not be forced to search around elsewhere on this vast message board for some other thread (among close to 100,000 existing threads) covering backdoor prints generally. A sales thread is def not the right place to discuss what a backdoor print is. 2 You have a problem with me, than please discuss in PM also, no idea what your problem is with people like me? (What does that even mean?). 3 I wasn't brushing anything under the carpet, i even told docean it was a great question and he should ask Mike about the print. 4 He didn't, he was asking what a backdoor print was. I think it is a bit silly to quote yourself, but you explanation on what backdoor prints are is quiet good, got to give you that. Why don't you write a separate thread with that information in it. So people can find that info in one place and don't need to search 100.000 threads. And to finish off some simple copy-past rules and guidelines for your reading pleasure : Posting and Sales Threads: 7. Forum Members should explore the forum and familiarise themselves with the wealth of information available to them and how it is structured. When creating new posts or threads members should do their best to place them in the correct Board or Thread. In order to maintain this structure and accessibility, Forum Staff reserve the right to move your Thread or Post to a more appropriate area if needed. - I don't think he searched the forum before asking the question, otherwise he would know what a backdoor print was.8. Threads should remain on topic, if you wish to start a separate discussion then please raise another thread. Similarly, members should not make posts with the intention of provoking or aggravating other members or inciting members to cause issue or distress on the forum. - The topic is selling a print, there are many topics about what backdoor prints are themselves. 11. In Sales Threads; please respect the Original Posterโs valuation. Whilst you may believe you have a valid opinion on what a sensible market value is, another memberโs For Sale Thread is not the place to debate the matter. If you have a differing view you should refer to the Price Check section and debate the matter there. - I told him that it was a great question, but there has been written many topics on backdoor prints already.I hope the new year will be without all the ranting and judging beforehand and i would like to take the time to wish you a Merry Xmas met
(And i think Mike needs a new proper sale thread, sorry for that.)
After addressing your points 1 to 4 in PART I, there follows my reply to the second half of your response regarding the three forum rules and guidelines you cited, along with what I've come to conclude from our exchange thus far. PART II7. - I don't think he searched the forum before asking the question, otherwise he would know what a backdoor print was.You are misunderstanding the primary purpose of rule / guideline 7, which relates to the structure of the forum. Separately, I have no issue with any member asking the different questions docean did (especially on the subject of backdoor prints, for the reasons already mentioned in my reply to your point 1). Full responses to those questions would benefit not only him, but other members who may also be unfamiliar with the subject. [As a secondary general remark (alluded to as well in my reply to your point 1), I believe new members deserve to be treated with patience and given some slack when it comes to forum guidelines.] 8. - The topic is selling a print, there are many topics about what backdoor prints are themselves. The topic is the sale of a backdoor print. A discussion about backdoor prints more broadly, the counterfeits existing on the market, and the provenance of the supposed backdoor print being sold, is on topic. It is all part of the same discussion. I'll repeat an earlier observation for emphasis: This is a case of "legitimate discussion on the very threads where it's most relevant, most likely to be seen by potential buyers, and therefore of greatest benefit to potential buyers."Attempts to artificially separate elements of that conversation are not only unhelpful, but damaging. They are damaging to everyone on this forum, with the exception of the individual seller, i.e. the person who's trying to offload either a counterfeit print or a stolen print. 11. - I told him that it was a great question, but there has been written many topics on backdoor prints already.Rule / guideline 11 is not applicable here, and your reference to it is a non sequitur. There weren't any comments about price; the seller didn't even list one. ---------- I hope the new year will be without all the ranting and judging beforehand and i would like to take the time to wish you a Merry Xmas met There has been no "judging beforehand"; my comments were simply based on what you wrote. Although it's a minor point, I found your reference to "ranting" unfortunate. It felt like a dismissive, distraction tactic and an attempt to, once again, brush real issues under the carpet or to otherwise gloss over or ignore them. ---------- Stepping back and trying to summarise the situation, I think what we have here (besides different values or moral codes) is just conflicting priorities: 1. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that your priority is the protection of the financial interests of your friend, Mike Haspey / mikehaspey . 2. The priority for me is trying to help inform other members who may know less about backdoor prints and associated risks and issues. The ultimate aim is preventing people from getting shafted. Or, if they choose to get shafted regardless, to make sure their eyes are open and to check they've got condoms. |
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dotdot
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 3,658
๐๐ป 1,030
December 2006
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by dotdot on Dec 29, 2015 23:55:49 GMT 1, Interesting thread , thanks for lots of interesting info....
Back door ... Yeah I know about them , probably not enough , who would want to know first hand eh ?
As nu said , not worth the paper , I tend to agree.
As for debate , yes , it has to be had ...
Interesting thread , thanks for lots of interesting info....
Back door ... Yeah I know about them , probably not enough , who would want to know first hand eh ?
As nu said , not worth the paper , I tend to agree.
As for debate , yes , it has to be had ...
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met
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,796
๐๐ป 6,762
June 2009
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by met on Dec 30, 2015 22:06:47 GMT 1, I know mikehapsey is a great guy to deal with and I 100% believe his VLH is a back door is what he says it is but I have to say met has posted some interesting and valuable information for any perspective buyer to be aware of. Not just this print but any you may have issues about. His comments are worthy of consideration before you commit to any Banksy purchase.
Many thanks for the input, Ruggs.
As I myself have no information about the provenance, I'm at a disadvantage with this particular print. Would you mind clarifying the basis on which you're 100% confident the item was an actual backdoor print?
Notwithstanding a lack of specific details, we can still assume that one of two possibilities was correct:
1. The seller sold the print believing it to be genuine.
Or
2. The seller sold the print in reckless disregard to its authenticity, believing it was (or suspecting it could be) counterfeit.
The new owner of the print will have taken the first possibility on trust when making their purchase. But both possibilities only relate to the seller's state of mind, i.e. what he thought he was selling. That is clearly different to the question of whether the print was actually genuine.
What the seller has confirmed in this thread is having purchased the item from another forum member. He himself wasn't therefore in a position to know with 100% certainty if it was real, because he was relying on the assurances of somebody else. They, in turn, were relying on the word of whomever they bought the print from. And so on, if the chain of ownership continued further.
As a result, even if the seller had good intent, it seems a leap of faith was required on his part โ faith in the honesty of each and every one of the previous owners of the print, including those he may have never met. Unless there exists concrete evidence of genuineness, the reality is that it could easily have been a case of the blind leading the blind leading the blind. Or, worse, a counterfeiter leading the blind leading the blind.
I know mikehapsey is a great guy to deal with and I 100% believe his VLH is a back door is what he says it is but I have to say met has posted some interesting and valuable information for any perspective buyer to be aware of. Not just this print but any you may have issues about. His comments are worthy of consideration before you commit to any Banksy purchase. Many thanks for the input, Ruggs. As I myself have no information about the provenance, I'm at a disadvantage with this particular print. Would you mind clarifying the basis on which you're 100% confident the item was an actual backdoor print? Notwithstanding a lack of specific details, we can still assume that one of two possibilities was correct: 1. The seller sold the print believing it to be genuine. Or2. The seller sold the print in reckless disregard to its authenticity, believing it was (or suspecting it could be) counterfeit. The new owner of the print will have taken the first possibility on trust when making their purchase. But both possibilities only relate to the seller's state of mind, i.e. what he thought he was selling. That is clearly different to the question of whether the print was actually genuine. What the seller has confirmed in this thread is having purchased the item from another forum member. He himself wasn't therefore in a position to know with 100% certainty if it was real, because he was relying on the assurances of somebody else. They, in turn, were relying on the word of whomever they bought the print from. And so on, if the chain of ownership continued further. As a result, even if the seller had good intent, it seems a leap of faith was required on his part โ faith in the honesty of each and every one of the previous owners of the print, including those he may have never met. Unless there exists concrete evidence of genuineness, the reality is that it could easily have been a case of the blind leading the blind leading the blind. Or, worse, a counterfeiter leading the blind leading the blind. |
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china man
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 367
๐๐ป 130
September 2011
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by china man on Mar 16, 2016 21:47:11 GMT 1, imgur.com/qToUCyL Hi, I've been handed an opportunity that I can't turn down, so to top up my next purchase the Very Little Helps has to go. It's framed by mister frameman and has c.o.a in hand. This is a stunning print and I know the last two sold for 12k so this is the lowest I am looking for? No time wasters please. On my iPhone so if address up top don't work please send your email address and pictures will follow. Thanks.
imgur.com/qToUCyL Hi, I've been handed an opportunity that I can't turn down, so to top up my next purchase the Very Little Helps has to go. It's framed by mister frameman and has c.o.a in hand. This is a stunning print and I know the last two sold for 12k so this is the lowest I am looking for? No time wasters please. On my iPhone so if address up top don't work please send your email address and pictures will follow. Thanks.
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duggyfresh
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,368
๐๐ป 1,043
February 2013
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by duggyfresh on Mar 16, 2016 21:56:14 GMT 1, lovely, nice frame job too!
lovely, nice frame job too!
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china man
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 367
๐๐ป 130
September 2011
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by china man on Mar 19, 2016 19:03:31 GMT 1, Now sold people, thanks all.
Now sold people, thanks all.
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guest8888
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 201
๐๐ป 124
March 2014
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by guest8888 on Aug 25, 2016 22:53:56 GMT 1, I am considering selling some of the following prints to free up some cash for a big purchase. I have quite a few refs on the forum if need be.
PM if you are interested in the prints and I will get back to when I get the chance. All banksys are mint, stored flat and never framed. All come with COA's registered in my name.
Banksy - Gangsta Rat AP Yellow - Mint condition - Offers around SOLD
Banksy - Very Little Helps - Mint - SOLD
Banksy - CND Soldiers Unsigned - ยฃ4400
I will try and get some pics added over the weekend. Based in Surrey, UK
I am considering selling some of the following prints to free up some cash for a big purchase. I have quite a few refs on the forum if need be.
PM if you are interested in the prints and I will get back to when I get the chance. All banksys are mint, stored flat and never framed. All come with COA's registered in my name.
Banksy - Gangsta Rat AP Yellow - Mint condition - Offers around SOLD
Banksy - Very Little Helps - Mint - SOLD
Banksy - CND Soldiers Unsigned - ยฃ4400
I will try and get some pics added over the weekend. Based in Surrey, UK
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by Fish in the Sea on Aug 25, 2016 23:52:20 GMT 1, Good seller to deal with
Good seller to deal with
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securityman
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 356
๐๐ป 86
August 2008
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by securityman on Aug 26, 2016 2:09:26 GMT 1, UK based?
UK based?
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guest8888
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 201
๐๐ป 124
March 2014
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by guest8888 on Aug 26, 2016 8:34:24 GMT 1, Yes, Surrey.
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Ruggs
Full Member
๐จ๏ธ 8,963
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January 2008
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by Ruggs on Aug 26, 2016 8:56:10 GMT 1, Four lovely prints there, especially the GR. GLWTS!
Four lovely prints there, especially the GR. GLWTS!
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andyroo0312
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,174
๐๐ป 1,675
July 2011
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by andyroo0312 on Aug 26, 2016 10:05:07 GMT 1, I miss Surrey. Wot a t**t i am for moving from Surrey to Sydney. Both start with a S but one is s**t and the other is not. Glwys mate..
I miss Surrey. Wot a t**t i am for moving from Surrey to Sydney. Both start with a S but one is s**t and the other is not. Glwys mate.. |
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agu
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 317
๐๐ป 332
February 2016
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by agu on Aug 26, 2016 10:33:59 GMT 1, I miss Surrey. Wot a t**t i am for moving from Surrey to Sydney. Both start with a S but one is s**t and the other is not. Glwys mate.. 
I miss Surrey. Wot a t**t i am for moving from Surrey to Sydney. Both start with a S but one is s**t and the other is not. Glwys mate.. I live in Surrey and have a friend from Sydney visiting. Happy try and help if it get art into the hands of a loved one. I also have a load of poster tubes |
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Balboa
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 976
๐๐ป 1,409
November 2007
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by Balboa on Aug 26, 2016 11:35:12 GMT 1, I miss Surrey. Wot a t**t i am for moving from Surrey to Sydney. Both start with a S but one is s**t and the other is not. Glwys mate..
I miss Surrey. Wot a t**t i am for moving from Surrey to Sydney. Both start with a S but one is s**t and the other is not. Glwys mate.. It could be worse, you could have moved to Stoke. |
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tartarus
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,628
๐๐ป 2,169
February 2013
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by tartarus on Aug 26, 2016 11:52:33 GMT 1, I miss Surrey. Wot a t**t i am for moving from Surrey to Sydney. Both start with a S but one is s**t and the other is not. Glwys mate.. It could be worse, you could have moved to Stoke.
I miss Surrey. Wot a t**t i am for moving from Surrey to Sydney. Both start with a S but one is s**t and the other is not. Glwys mate.. It could be worse, you could have moved to Stoke. or Slough. |
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by John The Badgers on Aug 26, 2016 11:56:06 GMT 1, A bit harsh, Stoke born and bread.
A bit harsh, Stoke born and bread.
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andyroo0312
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,174
๐๐ป 1,675
July 2011
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by andyroo0312 on Aug 26, 2016 13:35:13 GMT 1, A bit harsh, Stoke born and bread. 
A bit harsh, Stoke born and bread. Yeah fair play. I had some nice times in Stoke. I would of been pissed off if someone said Slough. |
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andyroo0312
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,174
๐๐ป 1,675
July 2011
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by andyroo0312 on Aug 26, 2016 13:43:54 GMT 1, I miss Surrey. Wot a t**t i am for moving from Surrey to Sydney. Both start with a S but one is s**t and the other is not. Glwys mate.. I live in Surrey and have a friend from Sydney visiting. Happy try and help if it get art into the hands of a loved one. I also have a load of poster tubes
Now i am feeling home sick...
I miss Surrey. Wot a t**t i am for moving from Surrey to Sydney. Both start with a S but one is s**t and the other is not. Glwys mate.. I live in Surrey and have a friend from Sydney visiting. Happy try and help if it get art into the hands of a loved one. I also have a load of poster tubes My mum will be in Guildford next week and then Haslemere. I used to live in both beautiful towns so if you have any Banksys or Harland Millers you would like to pass on drop me a line.. Actually now i am single maybe you could but a lovely English Rose in one of those tubes?? oh hang on thats what i am supposed to do, but reverse Sorry forgive the language but i have just returned from pool comp and i kicked arse which involves drinking after winning. But i do love a English/Welsh/Scottish/Northern Irish rose very much.. Now i am feeling home sick... |
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agu
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 317
๐๐ป 332
February 2016
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Banksy "Very Little Helps" Print, by agu on Aug 26, 2016 14:32:15 GMT 1, I could send my wife, she is most definitely an english rose...not sure she would fit in the tube, will try tonight and let you know
I could send my wife, she is most definitely an english rose...not sure she would fit in the tube, will try tonight and let you know |
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