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Flipping Question, by discoduster on Jul 4, 2007 23:46:37 GMT 1, personally i like my art on the walls so i can appreciate it everyday, but u can't diss ppl for keeping it in portfolio's if thats what they llike, thats what they like. recently i saw an amazing banksy collection, i mean woth serious amounts of $$$ and he kept it all in drawers in pristine condition and this guy wasn't about to sell any of it
That's just weird/odd/wrong.
Kinda like buying a Ferrahi and keeping it locked in the garage 24hrs a day 
personally i like my art on the walls so i can appreciate it everyday, but u can't diss ppl for keeping it in portfolio's if thats what they llike, thats what they like. recently i saw an amazing banksy collection, i mean woth serious amounts of $$$ and he kept it all in drawers in pristine condition and this guy wasn't about to sell any of it That's just weird/odd/wrong. Kinda like buying a Ferrahi and keeping it locked in the garage 24hrs a day |
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Flipping Question, by jboy on Jul 4, 2007 23:47:39 GMT 1, The only time I recall having issue with something I saw you selling was with the Copyright Exhibit piece that you bought, only to have your roommate say they didn't like it (I believe that was the story). Anyway, that seemed like a perfect time to just sell the piece back for cost, but instead (again, this is if I recall this correctly), you inflated the price and rejected offers for cost even though you'd only had it for a week or so. Ah, here it is banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?board=ebaychat&action=display&thread=1180141169&page=1Anyway, that right there I would consider a flip. If you own something for several months or years and need to finance another piece or decide to go another direction with your collecting, that's not. Added: I did notice that you ended up selling it on ebay for near cost as a buy it now, so good show on that 
I sold it at what i paid for it in the end anyway (inc ebay fees etc) and both parties were happy. Infact i believe someone posted a picture of it in the gallery on here which i was happy about - i am glad someone else is enjoying it now. It was a shame i could not keep it (which was due to my housemate thinking it looked weird - thats a good sense of the word), so what was the point in keeping it if it was going to be under my bed or in the corner.
As i say, im happy someone else is getting enjoyment from it, i bought a new d*face with the money i got back and now im very happy as well, so it all worked out selling it at cost anyway.
The only time I recall having issue with something I saw you selling was with the Copyright Exhibit piece that you bought, only to have your roommate say they didn't like it (I believe that was the story). Anyway, that seemed like a perfect time to just sell the piece back for cost, but instead (again, this is if I recall this correctly), you inflated the price and rejected offers for cost even though you'd only had it for a week or so. Ah, here it is banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?board=ebaychat&action=display&thread=1180141169&page=1Anyway, that right there I would consider a flip. If you own something for several months or years and need to finance another piece or decide to go another direction with your collecting, that's not. Added: I did notice that you ended up selling it on ebay for near cost as a buy it now, so good show on that I sold it at what i paid for it in the end anyway (inc ebay fees etc) and both parties were happy. Infact i believe someone posted a picture of it in the gallery on here which i was happy about - i am glad someone else is enjoying it now. It was a shame i could not keep it (which was due to my housemate thinking it looked weird - thats a good sense of the word), so what was the point in keeping it if it was going to be under my bed or in the corner. As i say, im happy someone else is getting enjoyment from it, i bought a new d*face with the money i got back and now im very happy as well, so it all worked out selling it at cost anyway. |
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Flipping Question, by jboy on Jul 4, 2007 23:49:58 GMT 1, personally i like my art on the walls so i can appreciate it everyday, but u can't diss ppl for keeping it in portfolio's if thats what they llike, thats what they like. recently i saw an amazing banksy collection, i mean woth serious amounts of $$$ and he kept it all in drawers in pristine condition and this guy wasn't about to sell any of it That's just weird/odd/wrong. Kinda like buying a Ferrahi and keeping it locked in the garage 24hrs a day
Jesus, whats a Ferrahi, is that a cross betwen a ferrari and a lamborghini. Nice!
personally i like my art on the walls so i can appreciate it everyday, but u can't diss ppl for keeping it in portfolio's if thats what they llike, thats what they like. recently i saw an amazing banksy collection, i mean woth serious amounts of $$$ and he kept it all in drawers in pristine condition and this guy wasn't about to sell any of it That's just weird/odd/wrong. Kinda like buying a Ferrahi and keeping it locked in the garage 24hrs a day Jesus, whats a Ferrahi, is that a cross betwen a ferrari and a lamborghini. Nice! |
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Flipping Question, by alderevans2007 on Jul 4, 2007 23:59:04 GMT 1, The whole 'art game' is to do with money. I can't think of any other reason of releasing a print with a limited supply other than to bump up the prices.
I took an interest in banksy street art years ago and it gave me a great buzz. Later down the line, I am now fascinated by the art market and how bits of paper can take on so much value. I guess it is a shame that these have become mixed up.
With every good thing there will be people capitalizsing on it.
The whole 'art game' is to do with money. I can't think of any other reason of releasing a print with a limited supply other than to bump up the prices.
I took an interest in banksy street art years ago and it gave me a great buzz. Later down the line, I am now fascinated by the art market and how bits of paper can take on so much value. I guess it is a shame that these have become mixed up.
With every good thing there will be people capitalizsing on it.
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Flipping Question, by jboy on Jul 5, 2007 0:04:27 GMT 1, As some quite rightly said who i met on this board recently. I there was a run of 600, you will find they will sell slowly. Look at the faile bunny on POW which is a massive edition - slowly going down or the pure evil print 'pandas rock'. I have this print and its wicked - but theres loads of them and they are slowly going down.
If the pandas rock or that edition of the faile were an edition of 75 for instance, it would be a different story. They would sell out within an hour.
Something to ponder on tonight before i drift off to sleep tonight.
J
As some quite rightly said who i met on this board recently. I there was a run of 600, you will find they will sell slowly. Look at the faile bunny on POW which is a massive edition - slowly going down or the pure evil print 'pandas rock'. I have this print and its wicked - but theres loads of them and they are slowly going down.
If the pandas rock or that edition of the faile were an edition of 75 for instance, it would be a different story. They would sell out within an hour.
Something to ponder on tonight before i drift off to sleep tonight.
J
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Flipping Question, by finsburyparkranger on Jul 5, 2007 0:54:42 GMT 1, Flipping will always happen. If the rewards are sufficiently large according to someones circumstances people will always be tempted. Personally i think we need to move on from this debate and ask ourselves how can we make flipping less anti social. Thats why I think we should promote the idea of the 'flipper tax'. A minimum charity donation of 10% guaranteed by ebay for all art flipped, with higher donations expected for charity prints. A flipped print being one bought to resell regardless of time period or within three months of sale regardless of reasons for resale. At the end of the day that solution will ensure more common good is achieved through flipping than if the print wasn't flipped at all, if that makes any sense.
Flipping will always happen. If the rewards are sufficiently large according to someones circumstances people will always be tempted. Personally i think we need to move on from this debate and ask ourselves how can we make flipping less anti social. Thats why I think we should promote the idea of the 'flipper tax'. A minimum charity donation of 10% guaranteed by ebay for all art flipped, with higher donations expected for charity prints. A flipped print being one bought to resell regardless of time period or within three months of sale regardless of reasons for resale. At the end of the day that solution will ensure more common good is achieved through flipping than if the print wasn't flipped at all, if that makes any sense.
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Curley
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,012
👍🏻 7
June 2006
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Flipping Question, by Curley on Jul 5, 2007 8:13:55 GMT 1, personally i like my art on the walls so i can appreciate it everyday, but u can't diss ppl for keeping it in portfolio's if thats what they llike, thats what they like. recently i saw an amazing banksy collection, i mean woth serious amounts of $$$ and he kept it all in drawers in pristine condition and this guy wasn't about to sell any of it
Have to agree there Carlito.
I am a collector and have a portfolio full of prints that if i had the wall space i would have on my walls. Yes the arse can fall out the market tomorrow and i will be left with some STILL very fabulous prints...
Discoduster :- How does that tar me and others on this forum with the same brush as a bagger ? 
personally i like my art on the walls so i can appreciate it everyday, but u can't diss ppl for keeping it in portfolio's if thats what they llike, thats what they like. recently i saw an amazing banksy collection, i mean woth serious amounts of $$$ and he kept it all in drawers in pristine condition and this guy wasn't about to sell any of it Have to agree there Carlito. I am a collector and have a portfolio full of prints that if i had the wall space i would have on my walls. Yes the arse can fall out the market tomorrow and i will be left with some STILL very fabulous prints... Discoduster :- How does that tar me and others on this forum with the same brush as a bagger ? |
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®at
Junior Member
🗨️ 1,273
👍🏻 146
October 2006
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Flipping Question, by ®at on Jul 5, 2007 9:32:51 GMT 1, Flipping will always happen. If the rewards are sufficiently large according to someones circumstances people will always be tempted. Personally i think we need to move on from this debate and ask ourselves how can we make flipping less anti social. Thats why I think we should promote the idea of the 'flipper tax'. A minimum charity donation of 10% guaranteed by ebay for all art flipped, with higher donations expected for charity prints. A flipped print being one bought to resell regardless of time period or within three months of sale regardless of reasons for resale. At the end of the day that solution will ensure more common good is achieved through flipping than if the print wasn't flipped at all, if that makes any sense.
There is one- its called income tax
Whether or not people declare it is their problem- not ebays.
Flipping will always happen. If the rewards are sufficiently large according to someones circumstances people will always be tempted. Personally i think we need to move on from this debate and ask ourselves how can we make flipping less anti social. Thats why I think we should promote the idea of the 'flipper tax'. A minimum charity donation of 10% guaranteed by ebay for all art flipped, with higher donations expected for charity prints. A flipped print being one bought to resell regardless of time period or within three months of sale regardless of reasons for resale. At the end of the day that solution will ensure more common good is achieved through flipping than if the print wasn't flipped at all, if that makes any sense. There is one- its called income tax Whether or not people declare it is their problem- not ebays. |
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Flipping Question, by slowmo on Jul 5, 2007 9:35:46 GMT 1, Portfolio keepers, one thing to consider before saying they are not true collectors, what about the ones that the people you co habitate with can't stand? You can get them and they don't have to look at it.
As for art being about the money because limited editions bump up prices. Thats not the true spirit of limited editions. It is a means for someone who could never afford to own an original image or work of art to get one at a cost that is acceptable. Limited means that the value of the original work is not detracted, over exposure of any image leads to indifference in how people view it.
Ebay changed the rules somewhat on this, but I like to think that this is still why people produce print runs, even if a percentage of people only see it as a means to make money.
Portfolio keepers, one thing to consider before saying they are not true collectors, what about the ones that the people you co habitate with can't stand? You can get them and they don't have to look at it.
As for art being about the money because limited editions bump up prices. Thats not the true spirit of limited editions. It is a means for someone who could never afford to own an original image or work of art to get one at a cost that is acceptable. Limited means that the value of the original work is not detracted, over exposure of any image leads to indifference in how people view it.
Ebay changed the rules somewhat on this, but I like to think that this is still why people produce print runs, even if a percentage of people only see it as a means to make money.
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Flipping Question, by mcnipper on Jul 5, 2007 9:56:18 GMT 1, Flipping will always happen. If the rewards are sufficiently large according to someones circumstances people will always be tempted. Personally i think we need to move on from this debate and ask ourselves how can we make flipping less anti social. Thats why I think we should promote the idea of the 'flipper tax'. A minimum charity donation of 10% guaranteed by ebay for all art flipped, with higher donations expected for charity prints. A flipped print being one bought to resell regardless of time period or within three months of sale regardless of reasons for resale. At the end of the day that solution will ensure more common good is achieved through flipping than if the print wasn't flipped at all, if that makes any sense. There is one- its called income tax Whether or not people declare it is their problem- not ebays.
Actually, it would fall under the capital gains tax regime not the income tax regime. Except for the fact that paintings / prints are actually wasting chattels so they are exempt from CGT. Unless of course you are deemed to be running a business, in which case any profits would be assessed as trading income.
Flipping will always happen. If the rewards are sufficiently large according to someones circumstances people will always be tempted. Personally i think we need to move on from this debate and ask ourselves how can we make flipping less anti social. Thats why I think we should promote the idea of the 'flipper tax'. A minimum charity donation of 10% guaranteed by ebay for all art flipped, with higher donations expected for charity prints. A flipped print being one bought to resell regardless of time period or within three months of sale regardless of reasons for resale. At the end of the day that solution will ensure more common good is achieved through flipping than if the print wasn't flipped at all, if that makes any sense. There is one- its called income tax Whether or not people declare it is their problem- not ebays. Actually, it would fall under the capital gains tax regime not the income tax regime. Except for the fact that paintings / prints are actually wasting chattels so they are exempt from CGT. Unless of course you are deemed to be running a business, in which case any profits would be assessed as trading income. |
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Flipping Question, by wezzley on Jul 5, 2007 10:13:10 GMT 1, "Except for the fact that paintings / prints are actually wasting chattels so they are exempt from CGT."
careful what u quote as a 'fact', a wasting chattel is something with a life of less than 50 years like a racehorse... a print is not a wasting chattel & is subject to the usual cgt rules...
"Except for the fact that paintings / prints are actually wasting chattels so they are exempt from CGT."
careful what u quote as a 'fact', a wasting chattel is something with a life of less than 50 years like a racehorse... a print is not a wasting chattel & is subject to the usual cgt rules...
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Flipping Question, by birdboxsniper on Jul 5, 2007 10:16:38 GMT 1, mcnipper: "Actually, it would fall under the capital gains tax regime not the income tax regime. Except for the fact that paintings / prints are actually wasting chattels so they are exempt from CGT. Unless of course you are deemed to be running a business, in which case any profits would be assessed as trading income."
ARE YOU SURE PAINTINGS AND PRINTS ARE CLASSED AS WASTING CHATTELS? i thought that was just for mechanical things (things that wear out) such as cars and watches?
mcnipper: "Actually, it would fall under the capital gains tax regime not the income tax regime. Except for the fact that paintings / prints are actually wasting chattels so they are exempt from CGT. Unless of course you are deemed to be running a business, in which case any profits would be assessed as trading income."
ARE YOU SURE PAINTINGS AND PRINTS ARE CLASSED AS WASTING CHATTELS? i thought that was just for mechanical things (things that wear out) such as cars and watches?
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Flipping Question, by insite on Jul 5, 2007 10:37:16 GMT 1, "Except for the fact that paintings / prints are actually wasting chattels so they are exempt from CGT."
A few years ago Mark Thomas did a piece on one of his T.V. shows about CGT and art. Art is liable but there's a tax dodge where you can leave art to "the nation" but leave it in the possession of your descendants thereby incurring 0% CGT. As the art is then owned by "the nation" any member of the public can ask to see it and the "owner" has to give reasonable access. If I remember right he took a couple of coachs of people to view some stuff at Douglas Hurds place. Somewhere there's a published list of all the art covered under this scheme but I can't remember what it's called or anything, maybe someone else knows a bit more about it.
Sorry strayed off topic but I thought it might be of interest.
"Except for the fact that paintings / prints are actually wasting chattels so they are exempt from CGT."
A few years ago Mark Thomas did a piece on one of his T.V. shows about CGT and art. Art is liable but there's a tax dodge where you can leave art to "the nation" but leave it in the possession of your descendants thereby incurring 0% CGT. As the art is then owned by "the nation" any member of the public can ask to see it and the "owner" has to give reasonable access. If I remember right he took a couple of coachs of people to view some stuff at Douglas Hurds place. Somewhere there's a published list of all the art covered under this scheme but I can't remember what it's called or anything, maybe someone else knows a bit more about it.
Sorry strayed off topic but I thought it might be of interest.
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Flipping Question, by corblimeylimey on Jul 5, 2007 10:56:23 GMT 1, CGT only kicks in over £9000 so that's not really going to cause most on here a problem, bearing in mind that's £9000 profit and you get that every year (and the allowance keeps going up)
CGT only kicks in over £9000 so that's not really going to cause most on here a problem, bearing in mind that's £9000 profit and you get that every year (and the allowance keeps going up)
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Montubu7
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,196
👍🏻 5
November 2006
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Flipping Question, by Montubu7 on Jul 5, 2007 10:57:50 GMT 1, Interesting, love mt & have them all on dvd somewhere from back in the day, will have to dig them out as dont remember seeing that one
Interesting, love mt & have them all on dvd somewhere from back in the day, will have to dig them out as dont remember seeing that one
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Flipping Question, by a4mnt on Jul 5, 2007 11:35:36 GMT 1, JBoy - I assume you're not an estate agent in London, if you think the cheapest flat is £270k? I know you can find cheaper than that.
JBoy - I assume you're not an estate agent in London, if you think the cheapest flat is £270k? I know you can find cheaper than that. |
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Flipping Question, by finsburyparkranger on Jul 5, 2007 12:26:13 GMT 1, There is one- its called income tax Whether or not people declare it is their problem- not ebays. Actually, it would fall under the capital gains tax regime not the income tax regime. Except for the fact that paintings / prints are actually wasting chattels so they are exempt from CGT. Unless of course you are deemed to be running a business, in which case any profits would be assessed as trading income.
There's loads of ways of getting out of paying tax. How many flipped pieces of art does someone pay tax on? Sod all. My point is a a charity pledge guaranteed to ebay for a minimum of 10% at least means the anti social nature of flipping is traded off to some good somewhere else. Bit like a carbon tax. As a community we should promote the idea that all obviously flipped art should guarantee a charity donation. If we as a community generally adopted this concept, even if the black sheep didn't, it would be quite an achievement and a move in the right direction, no?
There is one- its called income tax Whether or not people declare it is their problem- not ebays. Actually, it would fall under the capital gains tax regime not the income tax regime. Except for the fact that paintings / prints are actually wasting chattels so they are exempt from CGT. Unless of course you are deemed to be running a business, in which case any profits would be assessed as trading income. There's loads of ways of getting out of paying tax. How many flipped pieces of art does someone pay tax on? Sod all. My point is a a charity pledge guaranteed to ebay for a minimum of 10% at least means the anti social nature of flipping is traded off to some good somewhere else. Bit like a carbon tax. As a community we should promote the idea that all obviously flipped art should guarantee a charity donation. If we as a community generally adopted this concept, even if the black sheep didn't, it would be quite an achievement and a move in the right direction, no? |
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pezlow
Junior Member
🗨️ 5,388
👍🏻 254
January 2007
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Flipping Question, by pezlow on Jul 5, 2007 12:28:45 GMT 1, Someone posted something like this on Kid Robot which made me laugh:
I am pretty sure my greengrocer is a flipper. He buys far more fruit and vegetables then he would ever need at a low cost and then sells them on for way more than he bought them for. I'm not even sure he likes fruit and vegetables
Someone posted something like this on Kid Robot which made me laugh:
I am pretty sure my greengrocer is a flipper. He buys far more fruit and vegetables then he would ever need at a low cost and then sells them on for way more than he bought them for. I'm not even sure he likes fruit and vegetables
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Flipping Question, by finsburyparkranger on Jul 5, 2007 12:30:02 GMT 1, Someone posted something like this on Kid Robot which made me laugh: I am pretty sure my greengrocer is a flipper. He buys far more fruit and vegetables then he would ever need at a low cost and then sells them on for way more than he bought them for. I'm not even sure he likes fruit and vegetables
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Someone posted something like this on Kid Robot which made me laugh: I am pretty sure my greengrocer is a flipper. He buys far more fruit and vegetables then he would ever need at a low cost and then sells them on for way more than he bought them for. I'm not even sure he likes fruit and vegetables ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Flipping Question, by a4mnt on Jul 5, 2007 12:41:07 GMT 1, Is there a choice on ebay of which charity you donate your percentage to?
There are only certain charities I would want the money to go to.
Is there a choice on ebay of which charity you donate your percentage to?
There are only certain charities I would want the money to go to.
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Flipping Question, by dave313perry on Jul 5, 2007 12:47:15 GMT 1, If your the seller you get to choose when you list the item, you have to sign up to some company, cant remember the name, but the buyer has no say
Dave
If your the seller you get to choose when you list the item, you have to sign up to some company, cant remember the name, but the buyer has no say
Dave
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Montubu7
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,196
👍🏻 5
November 2006
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Flipping Question, by Montubu7 on Jul 5, 2007 12:49:14 GMT 1, Missionfish, nice little earner for them, read the small print...
Missionfish, nice little earner for them, read the small print...
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Flipping Question, by dave313perry on Jul 5, 2007 16:21:42 GMT 1, I know they are onto a right winner! i bypasses them and just sold stuff direct when i was raising money for my friends bike ride accross mexico. although there are advantages of the charity, it was too much hassle!!!
I know they are onto a right winner! i bypasses them and just sold stuff direct when i was raising money for my friends bike ride accross mexico. although there are advantages of the charity, it was too much hassle!!!
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Flipping Question, by curiousgeorge on Jul 5, 2007 16:34:08 GMT 1, Some people could do with reminding how useful flipping and the secondary market is to us ALL!!!
I'm certain this board would not have half the members it does, if everyone bought at cost
As the song goes "Money makes the world go round the....."
Or was it "Don't hate the playa, hate the game"
Some people could do with reminding how useful flipping and the secondary market is to us ALL!!!
I'm certain this board would not have half the members it does, if everyone bought at cost
As the song goes "Money makes the world go round the....."
Or was it "Don't hate the playa, hate the game"
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Flipping Question, by jboy on Jul 5, 2007 23:54:52 GMT 1, Well so far it seems there is a bit of a mixed reaction to people who are called flippers - some think they are ok others hate them. As Pezlow said earlier with the green grocer quote - you would not go a have a go at your local greengrocer for selling veg for more than what he paid for it, when the guy obviously does not really like the sprouts.
Interesting - thats the best quote i have probably ever read on here.
J
Well so far it seems there is a bit of a mixed reaction to people who are called flippers - some think they are ok others hate them. As Pezlow said earlier with the green grocer quote - you would not go a have a go at your local greengrocer for selling veg for more than what he paid for it, when the guy obviously does not really like the sprouts.
Interesting - thats the best quote i have probably ever read on here.
J
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Flipping Question, by corblimeylimey on Jul 6, 2007 10:12:01 GMT 1, I've said this before, but while talking about greengrocers, here we go again...
A bagger is like someone who takes the last pint of milk in a supermarket just as you were reaching out for it then says to you "I don't want this milk, in fact I'm a vegan, but I'll sell it to you for £10, there's nowhere else open, so if you don't want dry cornflakes tomorrow morning hand over the money" ;D
I've said this before, but while talking about greengrocers, here we go again...
A bagger is like someone who takes the last pint of milk in a supermarket just as you were reaching out for it then says to you "I don't want this milk, in fact I'm a vegan, but I'll sell it to you for £10, there's nowhere else open, so if you don't want dry cornflakes tomorrow morning hand over the money" ;D
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ogrgel
New Member
🗨️ 502
👍🏻 20
December 2006
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Flipping Question, by ogrgel on Jul 6, 2007 10:13:49 GMT 1, I've said this before, but while talking about greengrocers, here we go again... A bagger is like someone who takes the last pint of milk in a supermarket just as you were reaching out for it then says to you "I don't want this milk, in fact I'm a vegan, but I'll sell it to you for £10, there's nowhere else open, so if you don't want dry cornflakes tomorrow morning hand over the money" ;D
or you can have a toast 
I've said this before, but while talking about greengrocers, here we go again... A bagger is like someone who takes the last pint of milk in a supermarket just as you were reaching out for it then says to you "I don't want this milk, in fact I'm a vegan, but I'll sell it to you for £10, there's nowhere else open, so if you don't want dry cornflakes tomorrow morning hand over the money" ;D or you can have a toast |
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Flipping Question, by corblimeylimey on Jul 6, 2007 10:15:19 GMT 1, I've said this before, but while talking about greengrocers, here we go again... A bagger is like someone who takes the last pint of milk in a supermarket just as you were reaching out for it then says to you "I don't want this milk, in fact I'm a vegan, but I'll sell it to you for £10, there's nowhere else open, so if you don't want dry cornflakes tomorrow morning hand over the money" ;D or you can have a toast
Of course, no one has to buy prints, but if it's something you really want.
I've said this before, but while talking about greengrocers, here we go again... A bagger is like someone who takes the last pint of milk in a supermarket just as you were reaching out for it then says to you "I don't want this milk, in fact I'm a vegan, but I'll sell it to you for £10, there's nowhere else open, so if you don't want dry cornflakes tomorrow morning hand over the money" ;D or you can have a toast Of course, no one has to buy prints, but if it's something you really want. |
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ogrgel
New Member
🗨️ 502
👍🏻 20
December 2006
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Flipping Question, by ogrgel on Jul 6, 2007 10:17:39 GMT 1, or you can have a toast Of course, no one has to buy prints, but if it's something you really want.
that's what it is .. WANT not NEED ..
or you can have a toast Of course, no one has to buy prints, but if it's something you really want. that's what it is .. WANT not NEED .. |
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