I'd just like to qualify neutral's comment by saying that POW don't hold a complete record of all prints they've sold. For example, I don't believe that the LA versions of the Banksy's appear on the database and prints sold at the Ghetto and other shows won't do so either.

In those cases (and for prints from other printers/galleries), a receipt and proper background story is going to be your best provenance. In addition, you'll obviously need to look at the print itself and ultimately whether you trust the seller. If it's ebay - check feedback, other items they've sold and simply correspond with them. Where a print has been sold a number of times, you'll need proof in respect of each sale. POW only ever keep details of the original buyer. Sometimes you just have to go with your gut feeling.

Obviously, both this place and the Ebay forums are good places to consult. If buying on Ebay, do make sure you check the Ebay forum. The guys on there usually track sales and are very knowledgeable on prints and dodgy sellers.

In case of the prints you're currently looking for, both the Mics and the UK version of Grannies should be registered with POW.

Mate, I've accused Banksy of shill bidding his own prints in a sorded attempt to increase his market value in 'The great bansky ebay con trick' thread. I also accused POW and LAZ of being in on the game and most other people that flog his work on ebay.

I'm still here. I think I'm a living example of freedom of speach on this forum. Oh and I still have a respect point left.....

*gulp*

Must admit didn't realise there was an ebay banksy forum, I'll have a look on there too. But forums like this are a good place for debate and differing views, hope it stays like that

Hungrig - thanks for clarifying that POW does have buyers' info for the LA Banksy's. It's good to know the information made it back across the Atlantic.

Like you (and many others), I too think the Banksy ebay forum and banksy.info compliment each other very well. Moreover, in terms of questions of print provenance, I completely agree that the most knowledgeable bods post on the ebay forum (as I alluded to in my previous post). And, the names you've listed certainly are very much the ones to consult for an opinion. I would therefore agree that it's a shame that many of these individuals do not or cannot post on this forum.

However, I've generally refrained from getting involved in discussions about particular members being banned or threads deleted and don't plan on changing that now. And that's not because I'm concerned about being censored or banned by the moderators or even losing any respect points, it's because I don't know enough about the facts and therefore don't feel I'm in a position to comment. Furthermore, while I agree with the general sentiment of your very eloquent post, I don't think that it's the best way to achieve your stated aims.

I will however make two more general comments -

Firstly, I'm all for openly debating issues. As I posted recently, I think that having strong opinions and expressing them is a good thing. Disagreement can be extremely healthy - indeed necessary. Libetarian's will argue that the right to freedom of speech is absolute (and I can completely understand that position), though IMO certain situations do call for a degree of censorship. This being the case, you're naturally reliant upon those with the power to censor to do so wisely. All I'll say on that is - I think it's great that Silky and AB are moderating this forum.

Secondly, I just wanted to pick up on your point about there being a fair amount of sarcasm on the ebay forum. It's certainly true that there's a lot of banter on the ebay forum and most of it is light-hearted fun. Unfortunately, I'm not so sure that it's all sarcastic or acerbic wit. While this forum may be jokingly called the "darkside", I actually think it's the ebay forum that has the tendency to become a little dark.

Ultimately, whether it comes to provenance, banksy more generally or anything else for that matter, my advice to the newcomers is take your information from as many sources as you can and make up your own mind.

Zippy - the reason you may be confused is that I'm not sticking up for anyone. What I've suggested, and I'll say it again, is that people read as much information as they can about whatever issue it is they're interested in and then make up their own minds.

This thread was originally about provenance, which is why I've been focusing on that predominantly. My views are and will remain, that aside from POW/LAZ and Mr B himself, the Ebay forum is the best place to confirm the legitimacy of a given print. I don't doubt for a second that certain ebay forum members can give you a near certain opinion on most works. There is obviously the wider debate about the value of such provenance if you ever come to sell the work, but that's a separate matter.

In respect of the second issue which this thread has now gravitated towards, I don't feel there's any need for me take sides or align myself with a particular camp. I'm well aware of what has been posted on both forums regarding the activities of certain members and know how I currently feel about things. But as I've stated previously, I don't feel that I have sufficient factual information to comment on particular incidents and therefore don't think it's fair for me to do so. Moreover, I really don't think that the approach that has been taken on this thread is the best way of resolving the situation.

Agree wholeheartedly. Please please PLEASE... can we all just get along as best as we can?

However, I would like to state this: I do believe that there has been, of late, a gross misconception that this forum does not tolerate ANY discussions/debates/discourse whatsoever. "Oh, I have just stated my opinion, now I risk getting banned". C'mon, I'm sure we can all see that that's grossly extreme and honestly quite preposterous. Quite on the contrary, there is plenty of room for discussions/debates/discourse... but the method of delivery is the real issue here - and I speak not as a mod, but an active and observant member, which I have spent a huge majority of my membership on this forum as. There's a huge difference between formulating an argument with impartiality, respect, and tact... versus one laced with abrasive and potentially offensive/strong/extreme (whether intended or not) language and/or images. There has been quite many 'deep' discussions in the past that have gone completely unmoderated... quite simply because there was no need for any moderation whatsoever. People were civil, and even if they disagreed, they agreed to disagree peacefully and respectfully. I'd like to bring nuart up as a random example: He's never appeared to lose his cool, and I've personally had quite a few constructive discussions/debates with him about various subjects. No issues whatsoever, and the discussions carried on for several pages with no moderation needed at all! That's the way it should be. WE HAVE THE CAPACITY TO DO THIS. So please... let's make it happen. Also, please, let's stop the "this forum vs. that forum" quip - each 'side' has its strengths, so let's just complement each other as best as we can. It's all about Banksy, remember?

As for censorship/banning, you've gotta admit that there's occasionally a need for that, although I do agree that it should be exercised only as a last resort. For instance, if a person came on here, took part in an argument, got personal and used racial/sexist/derogatory/homophobic/etc. language (which has happened before), something has to be done. And that person's posts have no reason to remain on here either... I'm sure you'd all agree with me on that.

BTW: I am NOT referring to the specific MonkeyPuzzle/Policeaware incident - As I never saw any of the posts in question, I am grossly misinformed about that episode. And since I believe that a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing, I will not take an uneducated stance. I'm just addressing the general "We can't make any discussions here or we'll be banned" vibe that seems to be going around... which is really quite unnecessary and just plain wrong.

Whatever has happened in the past is in the past. Please... let's just try to (cliché alert!!) build a better tomorrow (I warned ya!). As I've said in a recent post... let's just play nice, dammit!! The world has enough conflict as it is already!

Now... back to our regularly scheduled thread topic, which is about PROVENANCE!

I am a newbie here who does not know anybody here or in another forum. But, if I am not crazy, there was a quite long, very polite, not-offending message from Hungrig yesterday in this subject.

Is there any explanation somewhere from the person who erased this mesage why this message was erased?

Silky, you know me, and I've avoided getting into this playground spat between forums, but really. The post from Hungrig was a really sensible and valid post. He managed to convey in one post what will now take a hundred to get through.. The post was undoubtably positive to the memebrs on here as it pointed out that the ebay group should be consulted on any dubious Banksy's etc. Most members on here buy exclusively through ebay.. and without a doubt, there are members on the ebay forum who are able to provide info that this board cannot.

To be honest, I don't care who is banned from a persons private forum, it's not my labour of love. But to delete threads and content that is clearly helpful to it's members on a based on your personal issues with members really cannot be justified.

The members post the content to this board as a "public" service to fellow members. It's not personal and not aimed at you. Hunrigs post was to the members.

You really need to have a think and discuss things through before you delete things. A lot of new members are not aware of the ebay banksy board and would benefit from using it as a reference source in conjection with this one.

Can we please get this back to being an open and "public" forum before it turns silly. You needn't take things so personally, people perceive this as a "public" forum, if that changes, and it seems to have started. Then the place will just become a mundane chat board.

Peace and love.

Silky please don't take this the wrong way but I get the feeling you take any discussion as to how the site is run very personally. I appreciate you've put a lot of hard work into it and can understand you wishing to protect it. But sometimes a discussion is good, if anything just for clearing the air. Just deleting a thread is merely sweeping issues people have under the carpet. A web site is only as good as it's members so sometimes you have to let people have their say. In the long run, the site will reap the rewards.

A suggestion:

Might it be a good idea to have a prescribed set of forum rules (normally set as a sticky)?
It's a very commonplace practice on forums so as to avoid specifically "situations".

If the rules are clearly defined as to what is acceptable and unacceptable content as set out by the forum owner, no users can be under any misconceptions as to the possible reactions to what they post.

If the forums are getting large and active, it might be a good idea to add SEVERAL moderators to assist with general admin. Of course these moderators are chosen at the discretion of the forum owner and I imagine would need to have their own code of practice.

Perhaps spreading the load to 5 or 6 moderators could lift the workload a little and serve to spread the administrative responsibilities to a broader section of viewpoints and spread the flak bursts over a wider area.

Have seen this exact type of forum growing pains several times before on other large boards.

And it has to be said, people in general know who is who, who to trust and who not to. Can I make the request that the entire respect system is removed. Looking back over any issues the respect system seems more or less at the root of most problems

Not sure it is (but I'll go with your suggestion, I'm not bothered if it's here or not)

Maybe the thing here is the fact it's Silky's forum and he's trying to run it the way he wants to.

It must be annoying for him with everyone coming in and thinking they know better, and lots of hot air about this or that and this should or shouldn't happen, when all he wants is for us to get on with the issues that this forum is meant to be about, Banksy and associated art.

We can disagree with each other and have useful discussion, but more along the lines of art work etc rather than how the site is run, it might be an idyllic view but seems to be working as this forum does better than most in members ability to "play nice"

all of my posts sticking up for this forum and silky got deleted.

Ya see! ;D I cant get much fairer than that now can I ;D