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11
Junior Member
Posts โข 4,810
Likes โข 6,711
February 2011
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Christies Prints & Multiples Auction now on..., by 11 on Sept 19, 2013 14:19:39 GMT 1, Hammer
4k - Rude Copper
4.2k - Happy Choppers
3.5k - VLH
4.5k - Donuts
7k - NBG
10k - CYW Turquoise
Hammer
4k - Rude Copper
4.2k - Happy Choppers
3.5k - VLH
4.5k - Donuts
7k - NBG
10k - CYW Turquoise
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daveart
New Member
Posts โข 940
Likes โข 879
February 2008
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Christies Prints & Multiples Auction now on..., by daveart on Sept 19, 2013 15:10:05 GMT 1, surprised to see an unsigned happy chopper selling higher than the rude coppper.
surprised to see an unsigned happy chopper selling higher than the rude coppper.
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anbesivam1
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,493
Likes โข 820
February 2012
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Christies Prints & Multiples Auction now on..., by anbesivam1 on Sept 19, 2013 15:28:35 GMT 1, WTF NBG selling for ยฃ8750...If this isn't price/market manipulation I don't know what is...
WTF NBG selling for ยฃ8750...If this isn't price/market manipulation I don't know what is...
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lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
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Christies Prints & Multiples Auction now on..., by lee3 on Sept 19, 2013 16:14:49 GMT 1, WTF NBG selling for ยฃ8750...If this isn't price/market manipulation I don't know what is...
Manipulation in what sense? Do you believe that someone is sitting on 10 or more of those and just paying whatever it takes at auction in the hopes that they can set price for the next buyer that comes along? I tend to take a print auction at face but perhaps I'm naรฏve. I've been watching for years though and these print auctions tend to be dealers just outbidding one another for their own stock. I suppose I can appreciate someone suggesting that buyer pool is manipulation in itself but I don't see it that way.
There is no doubt those prices were high but it is London. What I found of interest were 3 Warhol electric chairs which all sold where they've been trading for the past 15 years (less than $8k) and a pair of Mao's that traded for half of what they've been trading for recently ($30k each). To me that is all the evidence one needs to argue that volume plays such a critical role for the edition market in that Warhol has over 100k signed prints out there so easy to source any day of the week. Whereas Banksy has what 5k, maybe 7500 signed prints in sum? Imo, that is one of the primary reasons for comparatively high prices on signed works.
I don't have any rational whatsoever for the unsigned markets but clearly overall volume for the signed markets can not be overstated in pricing terms.
WTF NBG selling for ยฃ8750...If this isn't price/market manipulation I don't know what is... Manipulation in what sense? Do you believe that someone is sitting on 10 or more of those and just paying whatever it takes at auction in the hopes that they can set price for the next buyer that comes along? I tend to take a print auction at face but perhaps I'm naรฏve. I've been watching for years though and these print auctions tend to be dealers just outbidding one another for their own stock. I suppose I can appreciate someone suggesting that buyer pool is manipulation in itself but I don't see it that way. There is no doubt those prices were high but it is London. What I found of interest were 3 Warhol electric chairs which all sold where they've been trading for the past 15 years (less than $8k) and a pair of Mao's that traded for half of what they've been trading for recently ($30k each). To me that is all the evidence one needs to argue that volume plays such a critical role for the edition market in that Warhol has over 100k signed prints out there so easy to source any day of the week. Whereas Banksy has what 5k, maybe 7500 signed prints in sum? Imo, that is one of the primary reasons for comparatively high prices on signed works. I don't have any rational whatsoever for the unsigned markets but clearly overall volume for the signed markets can not be overstated in pricing terms. |
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Winter
Junior Member
Posts โข 7,139
Likes โข 4,444
March 2007
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Christies Prints & Multiples Auction now on..., by Winter on Sept 19, 2013 16:17:43 GMT 1, CYW seems to do well at auction
CYW seems to do well at auction
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anbesivam1
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,493
Likes โข 820
February 2012
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Christies Prints & Multiples Auction now on..., by anbesivam1 on Sept 19, 2013 16:59:42 GMT 1, WTF NBG selling for ยฃ8750...If this isn't price/market manipulation I don't know what is... Manipulation in what sense? Do you believe that someone is sitting on 10 or more of those and just paying whatever it takes at auction in the hopes that they can set price for the next buyer that comes along? I tend to take a print auction at face but perhaps I'm naรฏve. I've been watching for years though and these print auctions tend to be dealers just outbidding one another for their own stock. I suppose I can appreciate someone suggesting that buyer pool is manipulation in itself but I don't see it that way. There is no doubt those prices were high but it is London. What I found of interest were 3 Warhol electric chairs which all sold where they've been trading for the past 15 years (less than $8k) and a pair of Mao's that traded for half of what they've been trading for recently ($30k each). To me that is all the evidence one needs to argue that volume plays such a critical role for the edition market in that Warhol has over 100k signed prints out there so easy to source any day of the week. Whereas Banksy has what 5k, maybe 7500 signed prints in sum? Imo, that is one of the primary reasons for comparatively high prices on signed works. I don't have any rational whatsoever for the unsigned markets but clearly overall volume for the signed markets can not be overstated in pricing terms.
Hey mate, I have based my assessment on that fact that any buyer of this print is:
a) usually someone who knows something about Banksy
b) will thus know that he can walk into any gallery that deals in secondary Banksy's and buy it for less than ยฃ8,750.
c) so who, knowing this fact, will pay above the market rate...basically a gallery/dealer with Banksy stock.
It is a practice that is not unknown in the art world...
WTF NBG selling for ยฃ8750...If this isn't price/market manipulation I don't know what is... Manipulation in what sense? Do you believe that someone is sitting on 10 or more of those and just paying whatever it takes at auction in the hopes that they can set price for the next buyer that comes along? I tend to take a print auction at face but perhaps I'm naรฏve. I've been watching for years though and these print auctions tend to be dealers just outbidding one another for their own stock. I suppose I can appreciate someone suggesting that buyer pool is manipulation in itself but I don't see it that way. There is no doubt those prices were high but it is London. What I found of interest were 3 Warhol electric chairs which all sold where they've been trading for the past 15 years (less than $8k) and a pair of Mao's that traded for half of what they've been trading for recently ($30k each). To me that is all the evidence one needs to argue that volume plays such a critical role for the edition market in that Warhol has over 100k signed prints out there so easy to source any day of the week. Whereas Banksy has what 5k, maybe 7500 signed prints in sum? Imo, that is one of the primary reasons for comparatively high prices on signed works. I don't have any rational whatsoever for the unsigned markets but clearly overall volume for the signed markets can not be overstated in pricing terms. Hey mate, I have based my assessment on that fact that any buyer of this print is: a) usually someone who knows something about Banksy b) will thus know that he can walk into any gallery that deals in secondary Banksy's and buy it for less than ยฃ8,750. c) so who, knowing this fact, will pay above the market rate...basically a gallery/dealer with Banksy stock. It is a practice that is not unknown in the art world... |
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lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
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Christies Prints & Multiples Auction now on..., by lee3 on Sept 19, 2013 17:34:05 GMT 1, >>>so who, knowing this fact, will pay above the market rate...basically a gallery/dealer with Banksy stock.
<<<
Not to be argumentative but I have met countless people at auctions over the years who will only buy at the primary houses (Sotheby's and Christie's). I can't count how many times I've sat next to buyers that are far wealthier than I could ever hope to be who have told me they never buy from a dealer. That buyer simply wants the peace of mind that comes from being able to point a provenance finger to the big houses should anything go wrong. IOW, they are happy to overpay for something to establish that provenance. It happens more often than most realize I think.
>>>so who, knowing this fact, will pay above the market rate...basically a gallery/dealer with Banksy stock.
<<<
Not to be argumentative but I have met countless people at auctions over the years who will only buy at the primary houses (Sotheby's and Christie's). I can't count how many times I've sat next to buyers that are far wealthier than I could ever hope to be who have told me they never buy from a dealer. That buyer simply wants the peace of mind that comes from being able to point a provenance finger to the big houses should anything go wrong. IOW, they are happy to overpay for something to establish that provenance. It happens more often than most realize I think.
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anbesivam1
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,493
Likes โข 820
February 2012
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Christies Prints & Multiples Auction now on..., by anbesivam1 on Sept 19, 2013 17:35:43 GMT 1, >>>so who, knowing this fact, will pay above the market rate...basically a gallery/dealer with Banksy stock. <<< Not to be argumentative but I have met countless people at auctions over the years who will only buy at the primary houses (Sotheby's and Christie's). I can't count how many times I've sat near buyers that are far wealthier than I could ever hope to be who have told me they never buy from a dealer. That buyer simply wants the peace of mind that comes from being able to point a provenance finger to the big houses should anything go wrong. IOW, they are happy to overpay for something to establish that provenance. It happens more often than most realize I think.
>>>so who, knowing this fact, will pay above the market rate...basically a gallery/dealer with Banksy stock. <<< Not to be argumentative but I have met countless people at auctions over the years who will only buy at the primary houses (Sotheby's and Christie's). I can't count how many times I've sat near buyers that are far wealthier than I could ever hope to be who have told me they never buy from a dealer. That buyer simply wants the peace of mind that comes from being able to point a provenance finger to the big houses should anything go wrong. IOW, they are happy to overpay for something to establish that provenance. It happens more often than most realize I think. Granted...that does happen...but on a grey NBG's?? |
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lee3
New Member
Posts โข 832
Likes โข 1,289
November 2009
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Christies Prints & Multiples Auction now on..., by lee3 on Sept 19, 2013 17:41:20 GMT 1, >>>Granted...that does happen...but on a grey NBG's??<<<
That's my point, the argument works both ways. You are suggesting this is not in their league so why bother. Likewise, I am suggesting this is a low cost item in the grand scheme so why bother? Believe, me I understand the manipulation argument and have seen it many times over but it is more obvious to me when it occurs with originals and dealers that are sitting on an enormous supply of one artist. There are what, 500 NBG's out there and *I suspect* most of them are in private hands at this point as opposed to any one dealer sitting on 30 of those images. I could just as well be wrong and really not picking a fight but I tend to take the print auctions at face and rationalize 5 or 10 grand here and there above market as someone very wealthy who doesn't care be it dealer or collector. That's merely why I'm asking is that truly manipulation as I don't see it that way.
>>>Granted...that does happen...but on a grey NBG's??<<<
That's my point, the argument works both ways. You are suggesting this is not in their league so why bother. Likewise, I am suggesting this is a low cost item in the grand scheme so why bother? Believe, me I understand the manipulation argument and have seen it many times over but it is more obvious to me when it occurs with originals and dealers that are sitting on an enormous supply of one artist. There are what, 500 NBG's out there and *I suspect* most of them are in private hands at this point as opposed to any one dealer sitting on 30 of those images. I could just as well be wrong and really not picking a fight but I tend to take the print auctions at face and rationalize 5 or 10 grand here and there above market as someone very wealthy who doesn't care be it dealer or collector. That's merely why I'm asking is that truly manipulation as I don't see it that way.
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dotdot
Junior Member
Posts โข 3,645
Likes โข 1,025
December 2006
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Christies Prints & Multiples Auction now on..., by dotdot on Sept 19, 2013 17:51:13 GMT 1, Fwiw I'm meeting more and more people who do not buy anything from ebay.
If you were to only buy one banksy , for some they'd rather make it an event in public and in an auction.
Auction houses love making something of an event , while for many it's run of the mill.
Who here has been to one.. Just one ?
Fwiw I'm meeting more and more people who do not buy anything from ebay.
If you were to only buy one banksy , for some they'd rather make it an event in public and in an auction.
Auction houses love making something of an event , while for many it's run of the mill.
Who here has been to one.. Just one ?
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philw
New Member
Posts โข 168
Likes โข 49
March 2013
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Christies Prints & Multiples Auction now on..., by philw on Sept 20, 2013 5:41:13 GMT 1, Is pricing at auction for bankys always this rediculous?
So many of these can be ha so much cheaper
Is pricing at auction for bankys always this rediculous?
So many of these can be ha so much cheaper
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daveart
New Member
Posts โข 940
Likes โข 879
February 2008
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Christies Prints & Multiples Auction now on..., by daveart on Sept 20, 2013 14:00:26 GMT 1, Banksy prints can be had much cheaper if you are willing to spend hours reading forums / risking things on Ebay / risking bad shipping once a deal is done -- etc. etc.. I agree that there is minipulation of prices.. i also agree that there are people willing to over pay a bit for the security of knowing it is not a fake and will not be damaged in transit. impossible to know for this particular item - so speaking of crazy over bidding . check out the Invader Tile Kit on artnet auction. this person may in fact be crazy.
Banksy prints can be had much cheaper if you are willing to spend hours reading forums / risking things on Ebay / risking bad shipping once a deal is done -- etc. etc.. I agree that there is minipulation of prices.. i also agree that there are people willing to over pay a bit for the security of knowing it is not a fake and will not be damaged in transit. impossible to know for this particular item - so speaking of crazy over bidding . check out the Invader Tile Kit on artnet auction. this person may in fact be crazy.
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philw
New Member
Posts โข 168
Likes โข 49
March 2013
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Christies Prints & Multiples Auction now on..., by philw on Sept 20, 2013 15:42:33 GMT 1, One funny note; one of the only "expensive" pieces of art I had purchased and showed up damaged beyond repair was bought at auction : /
One funny note; one of the only "expensive" pieces of art I had purchased and showed up damaged beyond repair was bought at auction : /
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maxf
New Member
Posts โข 470
Likes โข 331
October 2012
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Christies Prints & Multiples Auction now on..., by maxf on Sept 20, 2013 16:27:44 GMT 1, Is ยฃ4k for a Rude Copper not cheap? Or am I miles off on pricing?
Is ยฃ4k for a Rude Copper not cheap? Or am I miles off on pricing?
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ABC
Artist
Junior Member
Posts โข 5,533
Likes โข 1,923
August 2006
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Christies Prints & Multiples Auction now on..., by ABC on Sept 22, 2013 21:20:41 GMT 1, Some nice Joan Miro's there.
Some nice Joan Miro's there.
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