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where do i stand legally?, by covertshadowops on Nov 25, 2013 12:46:49 GMT 1, i just thought i would ask this question... i wont name the person but i kinda think i have had either a bad experience or legally i am in the right.
i agreed a price to buy a piece of art with a private individual seller, i bank transferred 2/3rds of the total amount straight away.
1 month has passed and i was just about to transfer the last 1/3 and then goto pick up the piece straight after when the seller has informed me that he doesnt want to sell the piece and wants to refund my money.
(the delay in paying the final third was due to the amount. ie. we are talking of a sale close to ยฃ50k.)
i just thought i would ask this question... i wont name the person but i kinda think i have had either a bad experience or legally i am in the right.
i agreed a price to buy a piece of art with a private individual seller, i bank transferred 2/3rds of the total amount straight away.
1 month has passed and i was just about to transfer the last 1/3 and then goto pick up the piece straight after when the seller has informed me that he doesnt want to sell the piece and wants to refund my money.
(the delay in paying the final third was due to the amount. ie. we are talking of a sale close to ยฃ50k.)
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Quinnster
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January 2006
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where do i stand legally?, by Quinnster on Nov 25, 2013 12:59:53 GMT 1, As long as you get the refund nothing illegal.
As long as you get the refund nothing illegal.
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Forbidden Love
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September 2011
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where do i stand legally?, by Forbidden Love on Nov 25, 2013 13:00:41 GMT 1, well I think he is fine to back out at any point until you have the item in hand. its not great but you have stated you missed the date that you agreed to make final payment which should be enough for him to back out of the deal.
to be honest I dont think you can force a seller to sell something until you have parted with the cash and you have the item in hand unless there is a written contract : /
but im no expert.
well I think he is fine to back out at any point until you have the item in hand. its not great but you have stated you missed the date that you agreed to make final payment which should be enough for him to back out of the deal.
to be honest I dont think you can force a seller to sell something until you have parted with the cash and you have the item in hand unless there is a written contract : /
but im no expert.
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maxf
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October 2012
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where do i stand legally?, by maxf on Nov 25, 2013 13:11:24 GMT 1, Not being funny, but you're buying a ยฃ50k piece of art, so I'd spend the ยฃ250 or so on an hour of decent legal advice rather than ask on a forum.
Sounds harsh I know, but you really want proper advice you can rely on - I'm assuming no lawyer on here will provide advice anyway, opening themselves up to PI problems.
Not being funny, but you're buying a ยฃ50k piece of art, so I'd spend the ยฃ250 or so on an hour of decent legal advice rather than ask on a forum.
Sounds harsh I know, but you really want proper advice you can rely on - I'm assuming no lawyer on here will provide advice anyway, opening themselves up to PI problems.
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dotdot
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December 2006
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where do i stand legally?, by dotdot on Nov 25, 2013 13:12:55 GMT 1, difficult one, cso.
the agreement on orig price - was it verbal or via email ?
you still want the piece , right ? (couldn't quite make that out from your wording..).
it's difficult to argue on "when" the contract became binding.
you agreed the price and the process , right ? (including 2/3 then 1/3 , right ?)
if that was then agreed , seller may have an issue.
pez might be able to advise but don't think he's a knowitall , alas.
difficult one, cso.
the agreement on orig price - was it verbal or via email ?
you still want the piece , right ? (couldn't quite make that out from your wording..).
it's difficult to argue on "when" the contract became binding.
you agreed the price and the process , right ? (including 2/3 then 1/3 , right ?)
if that was then agreed , seller may have an issue.
pez might be able to advise but don't think he's a knowitall , alas.
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johnnyh
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March 2011
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where do i stand legally?, by johnnyh on Nov 25, 2013 13:23:27 GMT 1, If I were you I would just make sure I got my money back and quick.
The legalities etc are very complex as to which , what and where etc. could string out for ages you could lose plus expense and all this while he/she has your 30k.
If you did not win the case to get the piece could take ages to get your money back and you might not even get it. He could say he has spent it and pay you back at 50 quid a month.
Get your money quick as possible no good will come of it other wise he has piece plus 30k you have nothing at the moment. There can only be one loser here and it's you I'm afraid regardless of the rights and wrongs.
There will be another piece make sure you get your cash back asap
If I were you I would just make sure I got my money back and quick.
The legalities etc are very complex as to which , what and where etc. could string out for ages you could lose plus expense and all this while he/she has your 30k.
If you did not win the case to get the piece could take ages to get your money back and you might not even get it. He could say he has spent it and pay you back at 50 quid a month.
Get your money quick as possible no good will come of it other wise he has piece plus 30k you have nothing at the moment. There can only be one loser here and it's you I'm afraid regardless of the rights and wrongs.
There will be another piece make sure you get your cash back asap
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Deleted
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January 1970
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where do i stand legally?, by Deleted on Nov 25, 2013 14:26:32 GMT 1, as long as you get your money back its all good, deals fall through all the time, its a shame, but at least you'll get your monies back 
forget legal advice ect it won't get you anywhere and is waste of time and money.
as long as you get your money back its all good, deals fall through all the time, its a shame, but at least you'll get your monies back forget legal advice ect it won't get you anywhere and is waste of time and money. |
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vinzc
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March 2013
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where do i stand legally?, by vinzc on Nov 25, 2013 14:49:23 GMT 1, I'm no attorney, but in dealing with many legal matters as it pertains to money owed/due...I agree w the above. I think it is most prudent to get the money back ASAP.
I'm no attorney, but in dealing with many legal matters as it pertains to money owed/due...I agree w the above. I think it is most prudent to get the money back ASAP.
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Deleted
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January 1970
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where do i stand legally?, by Deleted on Nov 25, 2013 14:52:55 GMT 1, I'm no attorney, but in dealing with many legal matters as it pertains to money owed/due...I agree w the above. I think it is most prudent to get the money back ASAP.
Getting your money back is the priority.
I'm no attorney, but in dealing with many legal matters as it pertains to money owed/due...I agree w the above. I think it is most prudent to get the money back ASAP. Would agree with this. Get the money back, and then look into the legal aspect. I doubt if you've got a case, and if you did try and pursue it you'd face large costs without a guarantee on the outcome; plus plenty of time would elapse before any resolution. Getting your money back is the priority. |
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kbfrombk
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October 2013
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where do i stand legally?, by kbfrombk on Nov 25, 2013 15:08:58 GMT 1, You've (conveniently?) left out several important details of your agreement/contract.
In writing/verbal?
Promise to pay by date?
Other terms?
As said above, drop the painful attorney money for some suitable advice for your specific location/jurisdiction.
Sounds though that if you did indeed exceed your agreed upon timeline, your original agreement is void and open to amendment. Which is to say that both parties are to be restored to whole FIRST, and Then a new, modified deal is struck. AKA not saying he keeps your money until a new deal is figured, etc. Just be polite and cordial and accommodate the speediest return of your money however you can.
You've (conveniently?) left out several important details of your agreement/contract.
In writing/verbal?
Promise to pay by date?
Other terms?
As said above, drop the painful attorney money for some suitable advice for your specific location/jurisdiction.
Sounds though that if you did indeed exceed your agreed upon timeline, your original agreement is void and open to amendment. Which is to say that both parties are to be restored to whole FIRST, and Then a new, modified deal is struck. AKA not saying he keeps your money until a new deal is figured, etc. Just be polite and cordial and accommodate the speediest return of your money however you can.
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eschiff
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January 2010
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where do i stand legally?, by eschiff on Nov 25, 2013 15:12:16 GMT 1, if money has exchanged hands that's where the law judges a sale to have taken place. Legally speaking that piece is yours once a deposit it put down on it. Now whether you want to fight this in court, costing quite a bit of money, is another story but legally it's breach of contract for him to back out once he's accepted your money, whether the contract was verbal or written actually.
if money has exchanged hands that's where the law judges a sale to have taken place. Legally speaking that piece is yours once a deposit it put down on it. Now whether you want to fight this in court, costing quite a bit of money, is another story but legally it's breach of contract for him to back out once he's accepted your money, whether the contract was verbal or written actually.
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johnnyh
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March 2011
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where do i stand legally?, by johnnyh on Nov 25, 2013 15:43:21 GMT 1, if money has exchanged hands that's where the law judges a sale to have taken place. Legally speaking that piece is yours once a deposit it put down on it. Now whether you want to fight this in court, costing quite a bit of money, is another story but legally it's breach of contract for him to back out once he's accepted your money, whether the contract was verbal or written actually.
Then becomes a long drawn out affair to get cash back never mind the canvas.
so get out now. Get your cash nice as pie. Pain, tough etc etc does not matter who is correct talk about that when you have your cash. There are so many ways you could lose out here. He/she has already not done the agreed deal so why trust them
if money has exchanged hands that's where the law judges a sale to have taken place. Legally speaking that piece is yours once a deposit it put down on it. Now whether you want to fight this in court, costing quite a bit of money, is another story but legally it's breach of contract for him to back out once he's accepted your money, whether the contract was verbal or written actually. But he agreed if he did not pay the last installment on time he would forfeit his deposit................not necessarily true but the guy with the. 30k and the canvas could say this. Not suggesting he would but he could especially if a legal threat Then becomes a long drawn out affair to get cash back never mind the canvas. so get out now. Get your cash nice as pie. Pain, tough etc etc does not matter who is correct talk about that when you have your cash. There are so many ways you could lose out here. He/she has already not done the agreed deal so why trust them |
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kbfrombk
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October 2013
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where do i stand legally?, by kbfrombk on Nov 25, 2013 15:44:12 GMT 1, if money has exchanged hands that's where the law judges a sale to have taken place. Legally speaking that piece is yours once a deposit it put down on it. Now whether you want to fight this in court, costing quite a bit of money, is another story but legally it's breach of contract for him to back out once he's accepted your money, whether the contract was verbal or written actually.
if money has exchanged hands that's where the law judges a sale to have taken place. Legally speaking that piece is yours once a deposit it put down on it. Now whether you want to fight this in court, costing quite a bit of money, is another story but legally it's breach of contract for him to back out once he's accepted your money, whether the contract was verbal or written actually. I'd say the contract was voided once he missed the agreed upon deadline for final payment, but of course everyone's a lawyer online! |
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maxf
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October 2012
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where do i stand legally?, by maxf on Nov 25, 2013 15:47:24 GMT 1, It doesn't read to me that he missed any deadline. The payments could well have been in instalments as part of the sale.
Seriously - get some legal advice if you don't want to just get your money back, or can't. There is some rather questionable advice being posted here.
It doesn't read to me that he missed any deadline. The payments could well have been in instalments as part of the sale.
Seriously - get some legal advice if you don't want to just get your money back, or can't. There is some rather questionable advice being posted here.
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eschiff
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January 2010
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where do i stand legally?, by eschiff on Nov 25, 2013 15:49:04 GMT 1, ah, sorry, missed that part. If there was a stipulation in the contract that it needed to be paid by a certain date that may void the contract (unless there was just a penalty provision...ie pay 15% more if payment is missed).
ah, sorry, missed that part. If there was a stipulation in the contract that it needed to be paid by a certain date that may void the contract (unless there was just a penalty provision...ie pay 15% more if payment is missed).
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kbfrombk
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October 2013
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where do i stand legally?, by kbfrombk on Nov 25, 2013 15:49:06 GMT 1, (the delay in paying the final third was due to the amount. ie. we are talking of a sale close to ยฃ50k.)
(the delay in paying the final third was due to the amount. ie. we are talking of a sale close to ยฃ50k.) I don't know max, the word "DELAY" kind of stands out to me. |
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maxf
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October 2012
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where do i stand legally?, by maxf on Nov 25, 2013 15:50:27 GMT 1, I can read 
Anyway, I suspect this thread is just an attempt to get the attention of the seller, rather than get any meaningful advice.
I can read Anyway, I suspect this thread is just an attempt to get the attention of the seller, rather than get any meaningful advice. |
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Deleted
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January 1970
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where do i stand legally?, by Deleted on Nov 25, 2013 15:51:32 GMT 1, Get your money back then go around there and shit in his kettle.
Get your money back then go around there and shit in his kettle.
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kbfrombk
Junior Member
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October 2013
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where do i stand legally?, by kbfrombk on Nov 25, 2013 15:53:53 GMT 1, Well then it backfired because from the sound of the responses garnered by the information supplied, if I were the seller (who by now has a higher $ offer on his desk) I would be kicking back laughing my a$$ off!
There is such a thing as bad publicity!
Well then it backfired because from the sound of the responses garnered by the information supplied, if I were the seller (who by now has a higher $ offer on his desk) I would be kicking back laughing my a$$ off!
There is such a thing as bad publicity!
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maxf
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October 2012
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where do i stand legally?, by maxf on Nov 25, 2013 15:54:59 GMT 1, Absolutely.
Absolutely.
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johnnyh
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March 2011
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where do i stand legally?, by johnnyh on Nov 25, 2013 16:01:47 GMT 1, ah, sorry, missed that part. If there was a stipulation in the contract that it needed to be paid by a certain date that may void the contract (unless there was just a penalty provision...ie pay 15% more if payment is missed).
thats why I suggest just get your money back and walk away. Tough and all that but otherwise no quick solution if the canvas owner wants to be a pain regardless of who is right and wrong.
ah, sorry, missed that part. If there was a stipulation in the contract that it needed to be paid by a certain date that may void the contract (unless there was just a penalty provision...ie pay 15% more if payment is missed). Sorry mate not saying there wร s just using it as an example of what someone could say was said if there is no formal contract. thats why I suggest just get your money back and walk away. Tough and all that but otherwise no quick solution if the canvas owner wants to be a pain regardless of who is right and wrong. |
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kimpsons
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where do i stand legally?, by kimpsons on Nov 25, 2013 16:32:45 GMT 1, looks like no flipping then of this piece from you at a massive profit after lowballing the seller.
seems the seller might be wise..... to your ways..
looks like no flipping then of this piece from you at a massive profit after lowballing the seller.
seems the seller might be wise..... to your ways..
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kbfrombk
Junior Member
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October 2013
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where do i stand legally?, by kbfrombk on Nov 25, 2013 16:33:58 GMT 1, yikes
yikes
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mutatis
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July 2013
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where do i stand legally?, by mutatis on Nov 25, 2013 16:34:28 GMT 1, Two options: (1) The seller has offered you your money back, so why not take it and mark it down as an unfortunate experience? (2) If you want more than your money back you should consult a lawyer, and as you are no doubt aware, to receive full advice you will be asked for a lot more information than provided here. Whilst forum members will always try to be helpful to their fellow members  , to advise when the facts required to ascertain whether there is a binding contract between you and the seller can only be guessed at from the info provided, does not serve you well. Whatever you choose to do - good luck!
Two options: (1) The seller has offered you your money back, so why not take it and mark it down as an unfortunate experience? (2) If you want more than your money back you should consult a lawyer, and as you are no doubt aware, to receive full advice you will be asked for a lot more information than provided here. Whilst forum members will always try to be helpful to their fellow members , to advise when the facts required to ascertain whether there is a binding contract between you and the seller can only be guessed at from the info provided, does not serve you well. Whatever you choose to do - good luck! |
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Chrisp
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July 2011
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where do i stand legally?, by Chrisp on Nov 25, 2013 16:52:26 GMT 1, 15 odd different answers, good luck!
15 odd different answers, good luck!
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where do i stand legally?, by covertshadowops on Nov 25, 2013 17:45:00 GMT 1, Thanks to everyone's advice and comments. Yes I understand no one is a lawyer and I am not gonna get legal advice here but basically agreed by email the deal. Terms were as I got 2/3rds immediately the final third would be soon, as fast as possible etc. the seller expressed a payment date if I could but I was only a few days out. There was no actual terms / dates set in stone. Pulling close to ยฃ50k out the sofa is not an every experience for most.
The seller is a collector, I guess I thought a gentlemans deal was kinda binding. I feel pissed off yes, gutted yes. There was no low ballin. And the piece would never be sold by me after I got it.
Maybe certain auction results have altered his state of mind for sure. But my lesson learnt is pay up in 1 go and get it in your hands ASAP.
The seller will refund me my money, that's not an issue. Even offering compensation of 1%.
It's just the principal of a known person with a nice collection going back on his word on a deal.
Thanks to everyone's advice and comments. Yes I understand no one is a lawyer and I am not gonna get legal advice here but basically agreed by email the deal. Terms were as I got 2/3rds immediately the final third would be soon, as fast as possible etc. the seller expressed a payment date if I could but I was only a few days out. There was no actual terms / dates set in stone. Pulling close to ยฃ50k out the sofa is not an every experience for most.
The seller is a collector, I guess I thought a gentlemans deal was kinda binding. I feel pissed off yes, gutted yes. There was no low ballin. And the piece would never be sold by me after I got it.
Maybe certain auction results have altered his state of mind for sure. But my lesson learnt is pay up in 1 go and get it in your hands ASAP.
The seller will refund me my money, that's not an issue. Even offering compensation of 1%.
It's just the principal of a known person with a nice collection going back on his word on a deal.
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kbfrombk
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October 2013
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where do i stand legally?, by kbfrombk on Nov 25, 2013 17:52:32 GMT 1, I guess that's the risk taken by both a gentlemen's deal, and the payment plan route.
Never any telling to what degree someone is willing to stick to the "gentlemen's code", if at all, nor what they believe it to be. Perhaps he believes and was offended when you took it on to show up (even only a few days) late with the remaining funds. 2 sides to every story!
And the payment plan route of course leaves time as a crucial variable and if there's nothing else for sure, it's that time can kill all deals.
I guess that's the risk taken by both a gentlemen's deal, and the payment plan route.
Never any telling to what degree someone is willing to stick to the "gentlemen's code", if at all, nor what they believe it to be. Perhaps he believes and was offended when you took it on to show up (even only a few days) late with the remaining funds. 2 sides to every story!
And the payment plan route of course leaves time as a crucial variable and if there's nothing else for sure, it's that time can kill all deals.
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Dungle
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June 2011
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where do i stand legally?, by Dungle on Nov 25, 2013 17:54:41 GMT 1, perhaps he believes the gentlemans agreement was broken by not paying by a certain date.
I guess you just have to put it down as a bad experience, but certainly don't believe there to be any legal recourse.
perhaps he believes the gentlemans agreement was broken by not paying by a certain date.
I guess you just have to put it down as a bad experience, but certainly don't believe there to be any legal recourse.
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curiousgeorge
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March 2007
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where do i stand legally?, by curiousgeorge on Nov 25, 2013 17:57:16 GMT 1, Thanks to everyone's advice and comments. Yes I understand no one is a lawyer and I am not gonna get legal advice here but basically agreed by email the deal. Terms were as I got 2/3rds immediately the final third would be soon, as fast as possible etc. the seller expressed a payment date if I could but I was only a few days out. There was no actual terms / dates set in stone. Pulling close to ยฃ50k out the sofa is not an every experience for most. The seller is a collector, I guess I thought a gentlemans deal was kinda binding. I feel pissed off yes, gutted yes. There was no low ballin. And the piece would never be sold by me after I got it. Maybe certain auction results have altered his state of mind for sure. But my lesson learnt is pay up in 1 go and get it in your hands ASAP. The seller will refund me my money, that's not an issue. Even offering compensation of 1%. It's just the principal of a known person with a nice collection going back on his word on a deal.
Nothing is final till it's in hand
Might not be much comfort but personally speaking (and possibly for a few members) having a 50k deal go sour is a 'good' problem to have.I hope things change and something else turns up for you, in time you may look back and think things happen for a reason
Thanks to everyone's advice and comments. Yes I understand no one is a lawyer and I am not gonna get legal advice here but basically agreed by email the deal. Terms were as I got 2/3rds immediately the final third would be soon, as fast as possible etc. the seller expressed a payment date if I could but I was only a few days out. There was no actual terms / dates set in stone. Pulling close to ยฃ50k out the sofa is not an every experience for most. The seller is a collector, I guess I thought a gentlemans deal was kinda binding. I feel pissed off yes, gutted yes. There was no low ballin. And the piece would never be sold by me after I got it. Maybe certain auction results have altered his state of mind for sure. But my lesson learnt is pay up in 1 go and get it in your hands ASAP. The seller will refund me my money, that's not an issue. Even offering compensation of 1%. It's just the principal of a known person with a nice collection going back on his word on a deal. Feel for you in a way mate Nothing is final till it's in hand Might not be much comfort but personally speaking (and possibly for a few members) having a 50k deal go sour is a 'good' problem to have.I hope things change and something else turns up for you, in time you may look back and think things happen for a reason |
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Deleted
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January 1970
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where do i stand legally?, by Deleted on Nov 25, 2013 20:21:42 GMT 1, hope you manage to bag something even better with the money. good luck.
hope you manage to bag something even better with the money. good luck.
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, to advise when the facts required to ascertain whether there is a binding contract between you and the seller can only be guessed at from the info provided, does not serve you well. Whatever you choose to do - good luck!
