stvro22
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February 2013
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Artificially Created Markets. , by stvro22 on Jan 26, 2014 15:50:11 GMT 1, It just seems more now than ever on this forum there is a lot of stock put into whether a print or show sells out rather than the quality of the work. Where's the talk about the evolution of an artist's work? Do you think we all get too caught up in running with the pack sometimes instead of focusing on what makes an artist unique?
It just seems more now than ever on this forum there is a lot of stock put into whether a print or show sells out rather than the quality of the work. Where's the talk about the evolution of an artist's work? Do you think we all get too caught up in running with the pack sometimes instead of focusing on what makes an artist unique?
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Artificially Created Markets. , by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 17:37:11 GMT 1, Short answer : Yes
Long answer: The hype machine goes into overdrive on here all the time and this can create an artificial market. People who own certain prints always hype them up to artificially inflate the price. Sometimes just mass hysteria seems to take over and the price of a print we haven't actually seen get bumped up more and more (read the Os Gemeos thread as a perfect example).
There are truly great artists bringing out prints for ยฃ40 who are cheap because they haven't yet been hyped to death!
Short answer : Yes
Long answer: The hype machine goes into overdrive on here all the time and this can create an artificial market. People who own certain prints always hype them up to artificially inflate the price. Sometimes just mass hysteria seems to take over and the price of a print we haven't actually seen get bumped up more and more (read the Os Gemeos thread as a perfect example).
There are truly great artists bringing out prints for ยฃ40 who are cheap because they haven't yet been hyped to death!
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curiousgeorge
Junior Member
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March 2007
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Artificially Created Markets. , by curiousgeorge on Jan 26, 2014 18:02:35 GMT 1, I don't recall a time when people would discuss the merits of artists or the work they produce. I have however noticed the massive increase of the pump and dump of artists (in the name of a profit)
I don't recall a time when people would discuss the merits of artists or the work they produce. I have however noticed the massive increase of the pump and dump of artists (in the name of a profit)
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bitcoinbarry
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December 2013
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Artificially Created Markets. , by bitcoinbarry on Jan 26, 2014 18:17:47 GMT 1, One word. Stik.
One word. Stik.
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dundun
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February 2007
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Artificially Created Markets. , by dundun on Jan 26, 2014 18:33:01 GMT 1, This has been going on as far as I can remember. I don't think I've seen much discussion of the artistic merit of artists work other that to say that Shepard Fairey's hands suck, Banksy is putting out shite, TLP keep doing Lads, Phil Frost needs to paint something besides masks and bats, I could go on(Zevs, Parla, JR, Nick Walker).
I do remember a time back in 2004-2006 when people actually discussed the merit of the work(i.e.was Faile better without Aiko or with), but ever since the flipping boom it's seems like the major concern is flippability and future value.
This has been going on as far as I can remember. I don't think I've seen much discussion of the artistic merit of artists work other that to say that Shepard Fairey's hands suck, Banksy is putting out shite, TLP keep doing Lads, Phil Frost needs to paint something besides masks and bats, I could go on(Zevs, Parla, JR, Nick Walker).
I do remember a time back in 2004-2006 when people actually discussed the merit of the work(i.e.was Faile better without Aiko or with), but ever since the flipping boom it's seems like the major concern is flippability and future value.
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Manty
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Posts โข 956
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May 2013
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Artificially Created Markets. , by Manty on Jan 26, 2014 18:46:48 GMT 1, This has been going on as far as I can remember. I don't think I've seen much discussion of the artistic merit of artists work other that to say that Shepard Fairey's hands suck, Banksy is putting out s**te, TLP keep doing Lads, Phil Frost needs to paint something besides masks and bats, I could go on(Zevs, Parla, JR, Nick Walker). I do remember a time back in 2004-2006 when people actually discussed the merit of the work(i.e.was Faile better without Aiko or with), but ever since the flipping boom it's seems like the major concern is flippability and future value. faile were much better with Aiko
This has been going on as far as I can remember. I don't think I've seen much discussion of the artistic merit of artists work other that to say that Shepard Fairey's hands suck, Banksy is putting out s**te, TLP keep doing Lads, Phil Frost needs to paint something besides masks and bats, I could go on(Zevs, Parla, JR, Nick Walker). I do remember a time back in 2004-2006 when people actually discussed the merit of the work(i.e.was Faile better without Aiko or with), but ever since the flipping boom it's seems like the major concern is flippability and future value. faile were much better with Aiko
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saint
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September 2010
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Artificially Created Markets. , by saint on Jan 26, 2014 18:59:30 GMT 1, I think Aiko was much better with faile personally. Think faile do alright without her.
I think Aiko was much better with faile personally. Think faile do alright without her.
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Artificially Created Markets. , by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 19:49:21 GMT 1, There is a hell of a lot of hype and marketing that goes on by some so called galleries and dealers who are nothing more than glorified sales men and will sell anything that makes them a good profit.
I always prefer artists who make the images using their hands rather than some sort of photo shop manipulation.
People can fall for the slick marketing and advertorials in the press hyping up an artist who makes record prices at auction and not being aware that the record prices can be false and that some dealers use agents to bid up the prices in auction rooms to make out that someone paid a record price.
Some buy prints and art of the latest name to be trendy and in with the in crowd and others buy because they are advised that it's a good investment and the next big thing.
Dali churned out loads of ltd editions because it was an easy way of making money for him. He signed nearly everything put in front of him. Now today the Dali print market is a nightmare with some auction rooms refusing to sell some or selling for low prices because they don't know which are authentic and which are re prints from the plates which should have been destroyed but weren't.
I see nothing in Fairey, Koons or Brainwash that is any good but like Warhol who basically made Americanised versions of communist Russian propaganda posters. The art is not important, just the name.
There is a hell of a lot of hype and marketing that goes on by some so called galleries and dealers who are nothing more than glorified sales men and will sell anything that makes them a good profit.
I always prefer artists who make the images using their hands rather than some sort of photo shop manipulation.
People can fall for the slick marketing and advertorials in the press hyping up an artist who makes record prices at auction and not being aware that the record prices can be false and that some dealers use agents to bid up the prices in auction rooms to make out that someone paid a record price.
Some buy prints and art of the latest name to be trendy and in with the in crowd and others buy because they are advised that it's a good investment and the next big thing.
Dali churned out loads of ltd editions because it was an easy way of making money for him. He signed nearly everything put in front of him. Now today the Dali print market is a nightmare with some auction rooms refusing to sell some or selling for low prices because they don't know which are authentic and which are re prints from the plates which should have been destroyed but weren't.
I see nothing in Fairey, Koons or Brainwash that is any good but like Warhol who basically made Americanised versions of communist Russian propaganda posters. The art is not important, just the name.
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Artificially Created Markets. , by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 19:50:37 GMT 1, Short answer : Yes Long answer: The hype machine goes into overdrive on here all the time and this can create an artificial market. People who own certain prints always hype them up to artificially inflate the price. Sometimes just mass hysteria seems to take over and the price of a print we haven't actually seen get bumped up more and more (read the Os Gemeos thread as a perfect example). There are truly great artists bringing out prints for ยฃ40 who are cheap because they haven't yet been hyped to death! I don't think one can go wrong paying ยฃ40 for an Os Gemeos print. At least their art is original.
Short answer : Yes Long answer: The hype machine goes into overdrive on here all the time and this can create an artificial market. People who own certain prints always hype them up to artificially inflate the price. Sometimes just mass hysteria seems to take over and the price of a print we haven't actually seen get bumped up more and more (read the Os Gemeos thread as a perfect example). There are truly great artists bringing out prints for ยฃ40 who are cheap because they haven't yet been hyped to death! I don't think one can go wrong paying ยฃ40 for an Os Gemeos print. At least their art is original.
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dundun
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Posts โข 248
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February 2007
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Artificially Created Markets. , by dundun on Jan 26, 2014 21:39:54 GMT 1, There is a hell of a lot of hype and marketing that goes on by some so called galleries and dealers who are nothing more than glorified sales men and will sell anything that makes them a good profit. IMO it's already crossed the tipping point with artists like Retna pulling BS on his last release. This is only going to continue as quite a few artists are shunning galleries for direct to customer sales on websites. As soon as profit becomes the sole driver for a business, rather than focus on a good product, then the product suffers. Happened with Coke, Microbrewery beers than go into mass productions, and why it hasn't happened with a company like Apple because they value the experience of the customer(debate all you want Apple, but is still #1 on JD Power customer satisfaction...by a mile).
IMO this is having a major negative effect and why so many people are becoming jaded with this scene. It seems more and more you have to "know" someone, practice shady buying techniques, or have a huge bankroll just to be able to have the chance to purchase something. I know it's becoming an issue with me as I know I'll probably never be able to get another Banksy at cost.
As vogue as it is to bash galleries right now, IMO they act as a buffer between artists greed and shady selling practices. Debate all you want about how galleries have preferred customers, but that comes with hard work, creating a loyal customer base and working with artists who respect them. That's just part of the game and ALWAYS has been. People need to understand that galleries are a business too. I have issue with artists selling their work direct to public because there is no oversight. Retna won't suffer from what he pulled on his last release, but you can sure as hell bet if a gallery pulled questionable selling practices that they would be black listed by lots of people(ahem stik release at DG). So the artist/gallery/client relationship is absolutely necessary and will always be IMO.
There is a hell of a lot of hype and marketing that goes on by some so called galleries and dealers who are nothing more than glorified sales men and will sell anything that makes them a good profit. IMO it's already crossed the tipping point with artists like Retna pulling BS on his last release. This is only going to continue as quite a few artists are shunning galleries for direct to customer sales on websites. As soon as profit becomes the sole driver for a business, rather than focus on a good product, then the product suffers. Happened with Coke, Microbrewery beers than go into mass productions, and why it hasn't happened with a company like Apple because they value the experience of the customer(debate all you want Apple, but is still #1 on JD Power customer satisfaction...by a mile). IMO this is having a major negative effect and why so many people are becoming jaded with this scene. It seems more and more you have to "know" someone, practice shady buying techniques, or have a huge bankroll just to be able to have the chance to purchase something. I know it's becoming an issue with me as I know I'll probably never be able to get another Banksy at cost. As vogue as it is to bash galleries right now, IMO they act as a buffer between artists greed and shady selling practices. Debate all you want about how galleries have preferred customers, but that comes with hard work, creating a loyal customer base and working with artists who respect them. That's just part of the game and ALWAYS has been. People need to understand that galleries are a business too. I have issue with artists selling their work direct to public because there is no oversight. Retna won't suffer from what he pulled on his last release, but you can sure as hell bet if a gallery pulled questionable selling practices that they would be black listed by lots of people(ahem stik release at DG). So the artist/gallery/client relationship is absolutely necessary and will always be IMO.
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Artificially Created Markets. , by Jeezuz Jones Snr on Jan 26, 2014 22:11:29 GMT 1, Theres lots. Its all PR and spin and most of these guys have managers who look after pop stars, look at charming barkers prices!! . I think some arists build a fanbase over the years like Dolk for example, okay his prices have increased but I don't think he's been really hyped, It's just supply and demand for dolk.
Theres lots. Its all PR and spin and most of these guys have managers who look after pop stars, look at charming barkers prices!! . I think some arists build a fanbase over the years like Dolk for example, okay his prices have increased but I don't think he's been really hyped, It's just supply and demand for dolk.
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Artificially Created Markets. , by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 23:30:11 GMT 1, There is a hell of a lot of hype and marketing that goes on by some so called galleries and dealers who are nothing more than glorified sales men and will sell anything that makes them a good profit. IMO it's already crossed the tipping point with artists like Retna pulling BS on his last release. This is only going to continue as quite a few artists are shunning galleries for direct to customer sales on websites. As soon as profit becomes the sole driver for a business, rather than focus on a good product, then the product suffers. Happened with Coke, Microbrewery beers than go into mass productions, and why it hasn't happened with a company like Apple because they value the experience of the customer(debate all you want Apple, but is still #1 on JD Power customer satisfaction...by a mile). IMO this is having a major negative effect and why so many people are becoming jaded with this scene. It seems more and more you have to "know" someone, practice shady buying techniques, or have a huge bankroll just to be able to have the chance to purchase something. I know it's becoming an issue with me as I know I'll probably never be able to get another Banksy at cost. As vogue as it is to bash galleries right now, IMO they act as a buffer between artists greed and shady selling practices. Debate all you want about how galleries have preferred customers, but that comes with hard work, creating a loyal customer base and working with artists who respect them. That's just part of the game and ALWAYS has been. People need to understand that galleries are a business too. I have issue with artists selling their work direct to public because there is no oversight. Retna won't suffer from what he pulled on his last release, but you can sure as hell bet if a gallery pulled questionable selling practices that they would be black listed by lots of people(ahem stik release at DG). So the artist/gallery/client relationship is absolutely necessary and will always be IMO.
I think people bash some of the big galleries who they suspect of manipulating the market and creating a hype etc.
It's what happened recently with Chinese artists and paintings etc.
Some big rich dealer buys some paintings from a Chinese artist whichhave a good value of around 30K and then starts putting them in the big sale rooms and Wonder of wonders one of the paintings sells for something like 6 million pounds.
But thats another world and more to do with money than art.
I was amazed when auction houses like Philips or some others sell a string of lightbulbs for a million dollars etc.
Who the heck pays a million for a string of lightbulbs.
Are these "players" milking the very wealthy ignorant buyers?
Artists will always need good galleries because most artists cannot survive or have the time to market themselves or their art by themselves. Plus the galleries have the client list.
I see nothing wrong with artists selling direct to buyers. Dali did it all the time but there again he mingled with the rich and famous.
There is a hell of a lot of hype and marketing that goes on by some so called galleries and dealers who are nothing more than glorified sales men and will sell anything that makes them a good profit. IMO it's already crossed the tipping point with artists like Retna pulling BS on his last release. This is only going to continue as quite a few artists are shunning galleries for direct to customer sales on websites. As soon as profit becomes the sole driver for a business, rather than focus on a good product, then the product suffers. Happened with Coke, Microbrewery beers than go into mass productions, and why it hasn't happened with a company like Apple because they value the experience of the customer(debate all you want Apple, but is still #1 on JD Power customer satisfaction...by a mile). IMO this is having a major negative effect and why so many people are becoming jaded with this scene. It seems more and more you have to "know" someone, practice shady buying techniques, or have a huge bankroll just to be able to have the chance to purchase something. I know it's becoming an issue with me as I know I'll probably never be able to get another Banksy at cost. As vogue as it is to bash galleries right now, IMO they act as a buffer between artists greed and shady selling practices. Debate all you want about how galleries have preferred customers, but that comes with hard work, creating a loyal customer base and working with artists who respect them. That's just part of the game and ALWAYS has been. People need to understand that galleries are a business too. I have issue with artists selling their work direct to public because there is no oversight. Retna won't suffer from what he pulled on his last release, but you can sure as hell bet if a gallery pulled questionable selling practices that they would be black listed by lots of people(ahem stik release at DG). So the artist/gallery/client relationship is absolutely necessary and will always be IMO.
I think people bash some of the big galleries who they suspect of manipulating the market and creating a hype etc.
It's what happened recently with Chinese artists and paintings etc.
Some big rich dealer buys some paintings from a Chinese artist whichhave a good value of around 30K and then starts putting them in the big sale rooms and Wonder of wonders one of the paintings sells for something like 6 million pounds.
But thats another world and more to do with money than art.
I was amazed when auction houses like Philips or some others sell a string of lightbulbs for a million dollars etc.
Who the heck pays a million for a string of lightbulbs.
Are these "players" milking the very wealthy ignorant buyers?
Artists will always need good galleries because most artists cannot survive or have the time to market themselves or their art by themselves. Plus the galleries have the client list.
I see nothing wrong with artists selling direct to buyers. Dali did it all the time but there again he mingled with the rich and famous.
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Artificially Created Markets. , by maddoghoek100 on Jan 27, 2014 0:50:06 GMT 1, Anyone who believes that any market is free of manipulation is foolish or naive, and it is beside the point. If you believe every stock tip, real estate tip, or art tip you receive you deserve whatever is coming your way. In all likelihood you are going to end up with worthless assets. The art market has always been full of pump and dump crooks and forgers. there is n market for Dali because there were so many forgeries (many sold by reputable galleries either knowingly or unknowingly).
Building a relationship with a gallery your trust is a great way to become aware of new work. The internet is a democratizing force to be sure, but try sorting through all of the people posting on deviant to find the handful that have the chops to make it to the next level and you will be at it for a long time. A good group show at a good gallery is going to bring new talent to your attention. Find something you really like, buy it, stay in contact with the artist and the gallery. Support them in their career development. You will end up with amazing work you love, the inside track on the next new thing, and a better than average chance to getting some return on your investment.
Folks complaining about not getting this print or that print from an established artist is just plain crazy, and it certainly isnt market manipulation. If you have never done business with a gallery, call them up and ask to be on the list for the hotness and complain when you get shut out you just have unrealistic expectations. Complain all you want that you will never do business with them again, but the fact is you've never done business with them at all.
Anyone who believes that any market is free of manipulation is foolish or naive, and it is beside the point. If you believe every stock tip, real estate tip, or art tip you receive you deserve whatever is coming your way. In all likelihood you are going to end up with worthless assets. The art market has always been full of pump and dump crooks and forgers. there is n market for Dali because there were so many forgeries (many sold by reputable galleries either knowingly or unknowingly).
Building a relationship with a gallery your trust is a great way to become aware of new work. The internet is a democratizing force to be sure, but try sorting through all of the people posting on deviant to find the handful that have the chops to make it to the next level and you will be at it for a long time. A good group show at a good gallery is going to bring new talent to your attention. Find something you really like, buy it, stay in contact with the artist and the gallery. Support them in their career development. You will end up with amazing work you love, the inside track on the next new thing, and a better than average chance to getting some return on your investment.
Folks complaining about not getting this print or that print from an established artist is just plain crazy, and it certainly isnt market manipulation. If you have never done business with a gallery, call them up and ask to be on the list for the hotness and complain when you get shut out you just have unrealistic expectations. Complain all you want that you will never do business with them again, but the fact is you've never done business with them at all.
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pelle
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Posts โข 626
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May 2007
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Artificially Created Markets. , by pelle on Jan 27, 2014 1:11:36 GMT 1, I do remember a time back in 2004-2006 when people actually discussed the merit of the work(i.e.was Faile better without Aiko or with), but ever since the flipping boom it's seems like the major concern is flippability and future value.
These discussions must have taken place in a different context? (this forum was started in early 2006).
I do remember a time back in 2004-2006 when people actually discussed the merit of the work(i.e.was Faile better without Aiko or with), but ever since the flipping boom it's seems like the major concern is flippability and future value. These discussions must have taken place in a different context? (this forum was started in early 2006).
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Cornish Crayon
Junior Member
Posts โข 3,965
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December 2007
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Artificially Created Markets. , by Cornish Crayon on Jan 27, 2014 1:44:58 GMT 1, And of course name dropping on this thread will help, obviously lol
And of course name dropping on this thread will help, obviously lol
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alittle
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November 2012
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Artificially Created Markets. , by alittle on Jan 27, 2014 2:08:10 GMT 1, Isn't this all a game?
Isn't this all a game?
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Manty
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Posts โข 956
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May 2013
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Artificially Created Markets. , by Manty on Jan 27, 2014 9:14:36 GMT 1, Urban arts Top trumps
Now theres an idea
Urban arts Top trumps Now theres an idea
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