Harveyn
Forum Guardian
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Posts • 7,690
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July 2007
Staff Member
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by Harveyn on Mar 27, 2015 17:16:39 GMT 1, I know that there are significant number of very knowledgeable art collectors on this board and I am looking for some advice on the course of action I should take.
I recently received a piece of artwork from a very well known global Auction House that was collected and shipped to me by a very reputable Art Handler. At this point there is no point in me revealing the name of either party.
The artwork arrived materially different from the stock images and both companies have decided the other is to blame. I have to say given the sum of money was just over £9000 I am shocked at the stance taken by such significant players in this matter.
So I need advice as to the path to travel. Is it small claims court or other such provider? Should I just phone Citizen's Advice to understand the appropriate course of action to take? Does anybody know the legal details around distant buying?
Any and all advice or suggestions welcome.
I know that there are significant number of very knowledgeable art collectors on this board and I am looking for some advice on the course of action I should take.
I recently received a piece of artwork from a very well known global Auction House that was collected and shipped to me by a very reputable Art Handler. At this point there is no point in me revealing the name of either party.
The artwork arrived materially different from the stock images and both companies have decided the other is to blame. I have to say given the sum of money was just over £9000 I am shocked at the stance taken by such significant players in this matter.
So I need advice as to the path to travel. Is it small claims court or other such provider? Should I just phone Citizen's Advice to understand the appropriate course of action to take? Does anybody know the legal details around distant buying?
Any and all advice or suggestions welcome. |
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T-Bro
Junior Member
Posts • 1,519
Likes • 1,414
April 2006
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by T-Bro on Mar 27, 2015 17:21:27 GMT 1, My first thing would be to subscribe to which? legal services. For £60ish for the year its going to do you a great favour!
legalservice.which.co.uk/join-us
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dotdot
Junior Member
Posts • 3,647
Likes • 1,027
December 2006
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by dotdot on Mar 27, 2015 17:38:37 GMT 1, I'd guess they both have been in this situation in the past and .. You have not , so you're immediately at a disadvantage.
I'd also guess that this won't deter you... As it wouldn't anyone here.
Both parties have insurance to call on in such instances , so contact both companies and have them sort it out among themselves.
In the meantime contact your restorer and get a quote ..(ballpark)
Sound cool ?
Good luck
..
I'd guess they both have been in this situation in the past and .. You have not , so you're immediately at a disadvantage.
I'd also guess that this won't deter you... As it wouldn't anyone here.
Both parties have insurance to call on in such instances , so contact both companies and have them sort it out among themselves.
In the meantime contact your restorer and get a quote ..(ballpark)
Sound cool ?
Good luck
..
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PhxUrbanArt
Art Gallery
New Member
Posts • 43
Likes • 16
May 2014
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by PhxUrbanArt on Mar 27, 2015 17:49:14 GMT 1, I'm assuming you are located in the UK and the art shipped internationally. Is that the case? If so, what was the country of origin? Was insurance purchased with the carrier and if so is the damage something that legitimately may have happened during shipment (i.e. physical damage)? You will need to closely review the terms and condition of the agreement that you presumably had to sign with the auction house. If you want to send me a PM I may be able to help you navigate a course of action. Cheers.
I'm assuming you are located in the UK and the art shipped internationally. Is that the case? If so, what was the country of origin? Was insurance purchased with the carrier and if so is the damage something that legitimately may have happened during shipment (i.e. physical damage)? You will need to closely review the terms and condition of the agreement that you presumably had to sign with the auction house. If you want to send me a PM I may be able to help you navigate a course of action. Cheers.
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monkeyface
New Member
Posts • 440
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May 2013
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by monkeyface on Mar 27, 2015 18:54:35 GMT 1, The Art Handler is liable for the damages unless there is a record of the damage before he took it into his care.
Even if he never packaged up the artwork the moment it was passed to him he was responsible for it. If it was the Auction House that damaged the art work the Art Handler is still liable as he took it into his care and should have checked over what he was singing for and the condition it was in.
The Art Handler is liable for the damages unless there is a record of the damage before he took it into his care.
Even if he never packaged up the artwork the moment it was passed to him he was responsible for it. If it was the Auction House that damaged the art work the Art Handler is still liable as he took it into his care and should have checked over what he was singing for and the condition it was in.
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Dungle
Junior Member
Posts • 3,994
Likes • 5,127
June 2011
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by Dungle on Mar 27, 2015 21:03:39 GMT 1, The Art Handler is liable for the damages unless there is a record of the damage before he took it into his care. Even if he never packaged up the artwork the moment it was passed to him he was responsible for it. If it was the Auction House that damaged the art work the Art Handler is still liable as he took it into his care and should have checked over what he was singing for and the condition it was in.
What song?
The Art Handler is liable for the damages unless there is a record of the damage before he took it into his care. Even if he never packaged up the artwork the moment it was passed to him he was responsible for it. If it was the Auction House that damaged the art work the Art Handler is still liable as he took it into his care and should have checked over what he was singing for and the condition it was in. What song? |
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Dungle
Junior Member
Posts • 3,994
Likes • 5,127
June 2011
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by Dungle on Mar 27, 2015 21:07:34 GMT 1, Gutted for you Harveyn.
I would speak to both and suggest that you are going to go down the legal route and would they like to discuss a way to resolve without that becoming necessary. If they refuse then it doesn't hurt to speak to citizens advice to plan your next step.
I have to say that to me the blame will lie with the handler as I'm sure the auction house will have detailed photos confirming condition when it left them.
Gutted for you Harveyn.
I would speak to both and suggest that you are going to go down the legal route and would they like to discuss a way to resolve without that becoming necessary. If they refuse then it doesn't hurt to speak to citizens advice to plan your next step.
I have to say that to me the blame will lie with the handler as I'm sure the auction house will have detailed photos confirming condition when it left them.
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Harveyn
Forum Guardian
Full Member
Posts • 7,690
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July 2007
Staff Member
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by Harveyn on Mar 27, 2015 23:04:36 GMT 1, Thanks folks and please keep the advice coming.
It was a within the UK sale and shipment. I have spoken to both at length and told them that I am left with no option but to go down the legal route. One blames the other and whilst the art handle has been slightly more proactive neither have reacted as they should have IMO.
I am waiting to see the release note the art handler signed so I can understand who legally might be liable.
To be honest its extremely disappointing the attitude taken by both as it appears its up to me to prove who caused the problem. Foolishly I think they imagine I will not pursue this matter but to be honest if all I do is warn others of the pitfall of dealing with either of these companies then that is better than I feel right now.
There has been no significant dialogue between the two parties despite my offer in writing to facilitate that discussion. For both companies this sum of money is not worth the loss in reputation never mind sales this might result in.
They are both significant players in our art world and the auction house is a global household name selling £1m+ worth of art on a monthly basis.
I have been buying art for a decade and on the handful of occasions I have experienced a problem all have been resolved without out question and to my complete satisfaction.
Be assured I will at the very least alert people on this forum to the risk of dealing with both these companies.
Thanks folks and please keep the advice coming.
It was a within the UK sale and shipment. I have spoken to both at length and told them that I am left with no option but to go down the legal route. One blames the other and whilst the art handle has been slightly more proactive neither have reacted as they should have IMO.
I am waiting to see the release note the art handler signed so I can understand who legally might be liable.
To be honest its extremely disappointing the attitude taken by both as it appears its up to me to prove who caused the problem. Foolishly I think they imagine I will not pursue this matter but to be honest if all I do is warn others of the pitfall of dealing with either of these companies then that is better than I feel right now.
There has been no significant dialogue between the two parties despite my offer in writing to facilitate that discussion. For both companies this sum of money is not worth the loss in reputation never mind sales this might result in.
They are both significant players in our art world and the auction house is a global household name selling £1m+ worth of art on a monthly basis.
I have been buying art for a decade and on the handful of occasions I have experienced a problem all have been resolved without out question and to my complete satisfaction.
Be assured I will at the very least alert people on this forum to the risk of dealing with both these companies.
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by Coach on Mar 27, 2015 23:11:42 GMT 1, I believe that I may be able to assist.
Let's talk, my friend.
I believe that I may be able to assist.
Let's talk, my friend.
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peted77
New Member
Posts • 53
Likes • 53
September 2014
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by peted77 on Mar 27, 2015 23:23:09 GMT 1, Just trying to think who might of had an auction this week?...
Just trying to think who might of had an auction this week?...
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Deleted
Posts • 0
Likes •
January 1970
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 23:23:49 GMT 1, Personally when i ship any piece of artwork i photograph it when its leaving me, the company i deal with then photograph before it leaves them, i would expect both parties involved to have documented the goods prior to deptature, the primary source source imo should have evidence of actual condition in their position prior to it leaving their holding, if they dont then it goes back on them, if they do and can prove it left them in the condition/imagery described to you the buyer then it falls on the courier dependant on shipping/insurance agreements, one thing i know for sure is it isnt your fault, i know how particular you are!! In a good way 
Personally when i ship any piece of artwork i photograph it when its leaving me, the company i deal with then photograph before it leaves them, i would expect both parties involved to have documented the goods prior to deptature, the primary source source imo should have evidence of actual condition in their position prior to it leaving their holding, if they dont then it goes back on them, if they do and can prove it left them in the condition/imagery described to you the buyer then it falls on the courier dependant on shipping/insurance agreements, one thing i know for sure is it isnt your fault, i know how particular you are!! In a good way |
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sin
New Member
Posts • 614
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February 2013
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by sin on Mar 28, 2015 1:34:26 GMT 1, My general rule is to be a royal pain on the ass, firing off demand letters, seek remedy from both. The final truth is, as has been stated before, both the auction house and the Art handler have insurance to cover billshit like this. It doesn't matter whose fault it is, it sure as fuck isn't yours. So find a buddy whose a lawyer and have him put a demand letter on his letterhead and shoot to both parties, seek remedy from both. You made a claim to the shipper, the shipper can deal with the auction house and let them deal with it between the two of them. I've sucrssfully argued and won against Art handlers in the past, just get your facts together and be relentless.
My general rule is to be a royal pain on the ass, firing off demand letters, seek remedy from both. The final truth is, as has been stated before, both the auction house and the Art handler have insurance to cover billshit like this. It doesn't matter whose fault it is, it sure as fuck isn't yours. So find a buddy whose a lawyer and have him put a demand letter on his letterhead and shoot to both parties, seek remedy from both. You made a claim to the shipper, the shipper can deal with the auction house and let them deal with it between the two of them. I've sucrssfully argued and won against Art handlers in the past, just get your facts together and be relentless.
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Wilson
Junior Member
Posts • 1,184
Likes • 1,213
November 2014
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by Wilson on Mar 28, 2015 10:37:58 GMT 1, I know that there are significant number of very knowledgeable art collectors on this board and I am looking for some advice on the course of action I should take.
I recently received a piece of artwork from a very well known global Auction House that was collected and shipped to me by a very reputable Art Handler. At this point there is no point in me revealing the name of either party.
The artwork arrived materially different from the stock images and both companies have decided the other is to blame. I have to say given the sum of money was just over £9000 I am shocked at the stance taken by such significant players in this matter.
So I need advice as to the path to travel. Is it small claims court or other such provider? Should I just phone Citizen's Advice to understand the appropriate course of action to take? Does anybody know the legal details around distant buying?
Any and all advice or suggestions welcome.
Two questions for you. Who organised the shipping and when you say materially different do you mean damaged
I know that there are significant number of very knowledgeable art collectors on this board and I am looking for some advice on the course of action I should take.
I recently received a piece of artwork from a very well known global Auction House that was collected and shipped to me by a very reputable Art Handler. At this point there is no point in me revealing the name of either party.
The artwork arrived materially different from the stock images and both companies have decided the other is to blame. I have to say given the sum of money was just over £9000 I am shocked at the stance taken by such significant players in this matter.
So I need advice as to the path to travel. Is it small claims court or other such provider? Should I just phone Citizen's Advice to understand the appropriate course of action to take? Does anybody know the legal details around distant buying?
Any and all advice or suggestions welcome. Two questions for you. Who organised the shipping and when you say materially different do you mean damaged |
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by searchandrescue on Mar 28, 2015 12:05:39 GMT 1, I know that there are significant number of very knowledgeable art collectors on this board and I am looking for some advice on the course of action I should take.
I recently received a piece of artwork from a very well known global Auction House that was collected and shipped to me by a very reputable Art Handler. At this point there is no point in me revealing the name of either party.
The artwork arrived materially different from the stock images and both companies have decided the other is to blame. I have to say given the sum of money was just over £9000 I am shocked at the stance taken by such significant players in this matter.
So I need advice as to the path to travel. Is it small claims court or other such provider? Should I just phone Citizen's Advice to understand the appropriate course of action to take? Does anybody know the legal details around distant buying?
Any and all advice or suggestions welcome. Two questions for you. Who organised the shipping and when you say materially different do you mean damaged
I know that there are significant number of very knowledgeable art collectors on this board and I am looking for some advice on the course of action I should take.
I recently received a piece of artwork from a very well known global Auction House that was collected and shipped to me by a very reputable Art Handler. At this point there is no point in me revealing the name of either party.
The artwork arrived materially different from the stock images and both companies have decided the other is to blame. I have to say given the sum of money was just over £9000 I am shocked at the stance taken by such significant players in this matter.
So I need advice as to the path to travel. Is it small claims court or other such provider? Should I just phone Citizen's Advice to understand the appropriate course of action to take? Does anybody know the legal details around distant buying?
Any and all advice or suggestions welcome. Two questions for you. Who organised the shipping and when you say materially different do you mean damaged So sorry about the situation. Think £5000 is the limit for small claims? Think you should get the best legal advice you can afford. Am guessing you mean some of the top 3-4 auctions / handlers? Really bad form. I deal with them also on a business level and they can be a f**king nightmare. (Are you aware of the "flood damage" claim from a few years ago that, as far as I am aware was not upheld) I am fortunate never to have had any problems but I have heard some scare stories from what are supposed to be "highly reputable" organisations. Take your time to think before you act, if the work was around 9k then you should have 20/30 % of that held as contingency?? Again, get the best legal advice you can. Hope you manage to get it resolved. |
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by searchandrescue on Mar 28, 2015 12:35:15 GMT 1, ....appreciate those suggesting eventually taking legal action, sometimes it's best to go as far as humanly possible without issuing this threat. Reason being it really is your last resort. Once you start going down that route you cannot stop it without losing face / conceding, plus it's costly, even if your "mate" is a lawyer. Asking a professional adult to fire off a legally binding letter every month or so for 3-6 months, and deal with any resultant fallout plus take on board your instruction can eventually lead to the end of what was a friendship and possibly a very lengthy legal battle without a known outcome and huge costs. Remember, unless you are Ritchie Rich? they probably have deeper pockets than you and better lawyer. The legal system does not operate on a "Scales of Justice" type scenario, it generally benefits the wealthy / powerful and can leave an individual / small business bankrupt xx
....appreciate those suggesting eventually taking legal action, sometimes it's best to go as far as humanly possible without issuing this threat. Reason being it really is your last resort. Once you start going down that route you cannot stop it without losing face / conceding, plus it's costly, even if your "mate" is a lawyer. Asking a professional adult to fire off a legally binding letter every month or so for 3-6 months, and deal with any resultant fallout plus take on board your instruction can eventually lead to the end of what was a friendship and possibly a very lengthy legal battle without a known outcome and huge costs. Remember, unless you are Ritchie Rich? they probably have deeper pockets than you and better lawyer. The legal system does not operate on a "Scales of Justice" type scenario, it generally benefits the wealthy / powerful and can leave an individual / small business bankrupt xx
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by Coach on Mar 28, 2015 13:32:36 GMT 1, Two questions for you. Who organised the shipping and when you say materially different do you mean damaged So sorry about the situation. Think £5000 is the limit for small claims? Think you should get the best legal advice you can afford. Am guessing you mean some of the top 3-4 auctions / handlers? Really bad form. I deal with them also on a business level and they can be a f**king nightmare. (Are you aware of the "flood damage" claim from a few years ago that, as far as I am aware was not upheld) I am fortunate never to have had any problems but I have heard some scare stories from what are supposed to be "highly reputable" organisations. Take your time to think before you act, if the work was around 9k then you should have 20/30 % of that held as contingency?? Again, get the best legal advice you can. Hope you manage to get it resolved.
£10,000
Two questions for you. Who organised the shipping and when you say materially different do you mean damaged So sorry about the situation. Think £5000 is the limit for small claims? Think you should get the best legal advice you can afford. Am guessing you mean some of the top 3-4 auctions / handlers? Really bad form. I deal with them also on a business level and they can be a f**king nightmare. (Are you aware of the "flood damage" claim from a few years ago that, as far as I am aware was not upheld) I am fortunate never to have had any problems but I have heard some scare stories from what are supposed to be "highly reputable" organisations. Take your time to think before you act, if the work was around 9k then you should have 20/30 % of that held as contingency?? Again, get the best legal advice you can. Hope you manage to get it resolved. £10,000 |
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Deleted
Posts • 0
Likes •
January 1970
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by Deleted on Mar 28, 2015 13:44:47 GMT 1, The auction house should have documentation of the piece for proof of condition. Also, did the auction house hire the shipping service or did you? If they did they still may be liable to settle as its their sale to you.
The auction house should have documentation of the piece for proof of condition. Also, did the auction house hire the shipping service or did you? If they did they still may be liable to settle as its their sale to you.
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by stillborncrisps on Mar 28, 2015 16:00:32 GMT 1, Was the packaging visibly damaged when you signed for it?
Don't suppose you got photos of such damage if so?
Was the packaging visibly damaged when you signed for it?
Don't suppose you got photos of such damage if so?
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by searchandrescue on Mar 29, 2015 11:05:48 GMT 1, So sorry about the situation. Think £5000 is the limit for small claims? Think you should get the best legal advice you can afford. Am guessing you mean some of the top 3-4 auctions / handlers? Really bad form. I deal with them also on a business level and they can be a f**king nightmare. (Are you aware of the "flood damage" claim from a few years ago that, as far as I am aware was not upheld) I am fortunate never to have had any problems but I have heard some scare stories from what are supposed to be "highly reputable" organisations. Take your time to think before you act, if the work was around 9k then you should have 20/30 % of that held as contingency?? Again, get the best legal advice you can. Hope you manage to get it resolved. £10,000
So sorry about the situation. Think £5000 is the limit for small claims? Think you should get the best legal advice you can afford. Am guessing you mean some of the top 3-4 auctions / handlers? Really bad form. I deal with them also on a business level and they can be a f**king nightmare. (Are you aware of the "flood damage" claim from a few years ago that, as far as I am aware was not upheld) I am fortunate never to have had any problems but I have heard some scare stories from what are supposed to be "highly reputable" organisations. Take your time to think before you act, if the work was around 9k then you should have 20/30 % of that held as contingency?? Again, get the best legal advice you can. Hope you manage to get it resolved. £10,000 Thanks buddy! |
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by artforartssake on Mar 29, 2015 22:55:44 GMT 1, "distant buying"? did you buy via a credit card per chance? if so, it's their problem, hand it over to them accordingly.
If not, your route will be rather more convoluted 
"distant buying"? did you buy via a credit card per chance? if so, it's their problem, hand it over to them accordingly. If not, your route will be rather more convoluted |
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Pipes
Junior Member
Posts • 2,430
Likes • 2,857
January 2012
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by Pipes on Mar 29, 2015 23:18:11 GMT 1, You could always get these guys to help 
www.assholesondemand.com
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Harveyn
Forum Guardian
Full Member
Posts • 7,690
Likes • 4,844
July 2007
Staff Member
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by Harveyn on Apr 10, 2015 10:04:25 GMT 1, Thanks for everyone's help on this one. It appears that both the art handler (freight forwarder) and auction house are determined to blame each other. I can say my patience with both has worn thin so if anyone is looking for me to recommend either service provider my advice would be stay clear!! No names yet but that will come as it appears whilst I am the innocent party I am the one who has to prove which party is to blame.
Certainly anyone I have spoken to about the two companies involved in this debacle are equally appalled that neither has stood up and taken this one on the chin. Either one should have resolved the matter with me and then if required pursued the other. I certainly would not run my business like this.
If you are shipping valuable art or buying from an auction house please be very careful. I am happy to advise privately who not to use!!
The good news is under my art insurance I have free legal representation and the matter is now being handled by my solicitor.
Thanks for everyone's help on this one. It appears that both the art handler (freight forwarder) and auction house are determined to blame each other. I can say my patience with both has worn thin so if anyone is looking for me to recommend either service provider my advice would be stay clear!! No names yet but that will come as it appears whilst I am the innocent party I am the one who has to prove which party is to blame.
Certainly anyone I have spoken to about the two companies involved in this debacle are equally appalled that neither has stood up and taken this one on the chin. Either one should have resolved the matter with me and then if required pursued the other. I certainly would not run my business like this.
If you are shipping valuable art or buying from an auction house please be very careful. I am happy to advise privately who not to use!!
The good news is under my art insurance I have free legal representation and the matter is now being handled by my solicitor.
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gironawatch
Junior Member
Posts • 1,197
Likes • 94
August 2007
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by gironawatch on Apr 10, 2015 11:22:05 GMT 1, phillips auction, have charge me last week over 1k for and unsold lot, this charge was only for the insurance, If you have not give them your personal insurance I presume they have charge you for it, so you better claim the money to the auction house.
phillips auction, have charge me last week over 1k for and unsold lot, this charge was only for the insurance, If you have not give them your personal insurance I presume they have charge you for it, so you better claim the money to the auction house.
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met
Junior Member
Posts • 2,688
Likes • 6,320
June 2009
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by met on Apr 15, 2015 2:14:44 GMT 1, Thanks for everyone's help on this one. It appears that both the art handler (freight forwarder) and auction house are determined to blame each other. I can say my patience with both has worn thin so if anyone is looking for me to recommend either service provider my advice would be stay clear!! No names yet but that will come as it appears whilst I am the innocent party I am the one who has to prove which party is to blame. Certainly anyone I have spoken to about the two companies involved in this debacle are equally appalled that neither has stood up and taken this one on the chin. Either one should have resolved the matter with me and then if required pursued the other. I certainly would not run my business like this. If you are shipping valuable art or buying from an auction house please be very careful. I am happy to advise privately who not to use!! The good news is under my art insurance I have free legal representation and the matter is now being handled by my solicitor.
Thank you for the update.
Two related queries:
By "please be very careful", how do you mean?
Apart from looking into insurance and avoiding the auction house and art handler you've had to deal with, are there specific additional precautions you would advise taking?
Thanks for everyone's help on this one. It appears that both the art handler (freight forwarder) and auction house are determined to blame each other. I can say my patience with both has worn thin so if anyone is looking for me to recommend either service provider my advice would be stay clear!! No names yet but that will come as it appears whilst I am the innocent party I am the one who has to prove which party is to blame. Certainly anyone I have spoken to about the two companies involved in this debacle are equally appalled that neither has stood up and taken this one on the chin. Either one should have resolved the matter with me and then if required pursued the other. I certainly would not run my business like this. If you are shipping valuable art or buying from an auction house please be very careful. I am happy to advise privately who not to use!! The good news is under my art insurance I have free legal representation and the matter is now being handled by my solicitor. Thank you for the update. Two related queries: By "please be very careful", how do you mean? Apart from looking into insurance and avoiding the auction house and art handler you've had to deal with, are there specific additional precautions you would advise taking? |
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T-Bro
Junior Member
Posts • 1,519
Likes • 1,414
April 2006
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Legal Advice Required - Damaged Art, by T-Bro on Apr 15, 2015 10:38:14 GMT 1, Did this get sorted - would love to hear the result
Did this get sorted - would love to hear the result
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