Icesay
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,426
Likes โข 1,796
March 2010
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by Icesay on Jun 19, 2018 18:03:53 GMT 1, At the risk of sounding facetious, I consider your succinct post (and the issues it raises) very interesting. __________ No doubt most forum members will agree with your general sentiment. Those who don't are probably opportunistic individuals who knowingly buy what they consider to be sh it, because they're aware of the hungry market for it. I've seen this with bedroom dealers, and also professional dealers โ including those who own brick-and-mortar galleries. The latter are quite often highly knowledgeable and experienced, with trained, discriminating eyes. They're more than capable of distinguishing the innovative from the derivative. From the coattail-riders who just ape the themes and styles of gifted artists. Nevertheless, these professional dealers may still bolster their inventory with the likes of Mrย Brainwash, Martin Whatson, Theย Connor Brothers, Alec Monopoly or JJย Adams. As referred to above, they do so seeing that this work consistently sells to people who know little about art. Among novice enthusiasts and even long-term collectors, plenty will rarely set foot in galleries or museums. Many never read articles or books on art history or art criticism. Their interest (and their thinking) might be restricted to what everyone else is buying and how much pieces are selling for. In other words, restricted to current trends and demand. And if there is anything almost guaranteed to foster sheep-like behaviour (including the uncritical embrace of substandard art), it is the near-exclusive focus on what's popular and on pricing. My impression is that the number of collectors within this category is not only significant, it's enormous. And for gallerists concerned about overheads, I can understand the temptation to take advantage of this vast obliviousness in the market. It's disreputable, but quite easy to rationalise โ especially if the compromising allows such dealers to continue showcasing work by artists whose long-term futures they actually do believe in. __________ Greater scope for disagreement among forum members exists on the question of which artwork falls under the realm of shit. In part, the answer depends on subjective opinion. However, it also comes down to assessments made according to objective and semi-objective criteria โ e.g.ย technical skill, effectiveness of colour palette, compositional strength, conceptual interest, and originality or progression by reference to what already exists in the canon of art. That's where depth of knowledge is key. And, perhaps more importantly, breadth of knowledge: An individual may have been collecting for 10 or 20 years. Maybe they can proudly reel off every print released by, say, Ban ksy. In both chronological and reverse-chronological order. But how about if they've never even heard of Irving Penn or Eliย Reed; or don't know where Vermeer was from and what century he lived in; or cannot name a single Bas quiat painting; or blank when the titles of Whistlejacket or Nighthawks are mentioned? What this would indicate is a general ignorance which potentially hinders their ability, from an objective perspective, to distinguish sh it from: (i) semi-sh it; and (ii) non-sh it. __________ The spectrum of perceived shitinessโข is thus a relative one. It varies according to personal preference โ which, itself, is guided by the extent to which relevant viewers are informed. brilliant! man, I love most of your long-ish comments, they have some substance to it, even if the topic iss**tiness. keep up the good work.
You're quite right which leads to the obvious conclusion that there must be a requirement for classification for shit art. There's OG shit, giclee shit, screen shit, hype shit....I'm sure there are others!
At the risk of sounding facetious, I consider your succinct post (and the issues it raises) very interesting. __________ No doubt most forum members will agree with your general sentiment. Those who don't are probably opportunistic individuals who knowingly buy what they consider to be sh it, because they're aware of the hungry market for it. I've seen this with bedroom dealers, and also professional dealers โ including those who own brick-and-mortar galleries. The latter are quite often highly knowledgeable and experienced, with trained, discriminating eyes. They're more than capable of distinguishing the innovative from the derivative. From the coattail-riders who just ape the themes and styles of gifted artists. Nevertheless, these professional dealers may still bolster their inventory with the likes of Mrย Brainwash, Martin Whatson, Theย Connor Brothers, Alec Monopoly or JJย Adams. As referred to above, they do so seeing that this work consistently sells to people who know little about art. Among novice enthusiasts and even long-term collectors, plenty will rarely set foot in galleries or museums. Many never read articles or books on art history or art criticism. Their interest (and their thinking) might be restricted to what everyone else is buying and how much pieces are selling for. In other words, restricted to current trends and demand. And if there is anything almost guaranteed to foster sheep-like behaviour (including the uncritical embrace of substandard art), it is the near-exclusive focus on what's popular and on pricing. My impression is that the number of collectors within this category is not only significant, it's enormous. And for gallerists concerned about overheads, I can understand the temptation to take advantage of this vast obliviousness in the market. It's disreputable, but quite easy to rationalise โ especially if the compromising allows such dealers to continue showcasing work by artists whose long-term futures they actually do believe in. __________ Greater scope for disagreement among forum members exists on the question of which artwork falls under the realm of shit. In part, the answer depends on subjective opinion. However, it also comes down to assessments made according to objective and semi-objective criteria โ e.g.ย technical skill, effectiveness of colour palette, compositional strength, conceptual interest, and originality or progression by reference to what already exists in the canon of art. That's where depth of knowledge is key. And, perhaps more importantly, breadth of knowledge: An individual may have been collecting for 10 or 20 years. Maybe they can proudly reel off every print released by, say, Ban ksy. In both chronological and reverse-chronological order. But how about if they've never even heard of Irving Penn or Eliย Reed; or don't know where Vermeer was from and what century he lived in; or cannot name a single Bas quiat painting; or blank when the titles of Whistlejacket or Nighthawks are mentioned? What this would indicate is a general ignorance which potentially hinders their ability, from an objective perspective, to distinguish sh it from: (i) semi-sh it; and (ii) non-sh it. __________ The spectrum of perceived shitinessโข is thus a relative one. It varies according to personal preference โ which, itself, is guided by the extent to which relevant viewers are informed. brilliant! man, I love most of your long-ish comments, they have some substance to it, even if the topic iss**tiness. keep up the good work. You're quite right which leads to the obvious conclusion that there must be a requirement for classification for shit art. There's OG shit, giclee shit, screen shit, hype shit....I'm sure there are others!
|
|
moron
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,711
Likes โข 1,050
September 2017
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by moron on Jun 19, 2018 18:08:52 GMT 1, what art classification does this art fall under? Is it a new fad type art, done the walls lets do the floors I like it, lets get a print or a rug of it The concept is from 1962. It's described as a floor sculpture. It's Saatchi and the dead shark publicity game basically. Put some aboslute crap in a big gallery use the media contacts to create a fuss about it, create publicity, market it and sell it to wealthy investors.
The art world really is as shallow as that and has been for decades.
"Throughout the 1960s Schippers' work was popular with the director of the Stedelijk Museum in Amsterdam, Willem Sandberg, who bought many of his drawings and collages." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_T._Schippers
what art classification does this art fall under? Is it a new fad type art, done the walls lets do the floors I like it, lets get a print or a rug of it The concept is from 1962. It's described as a floor sculpture. It's Saatchi and the dead shark publicity game basically. Put some aboslute crap in a big gallery use the media contacts to create a fuss about it, create publicity, market it and sell it to wealthy investors. The art world really is as shallow as that and has been for decades. "Throughout the 1960s Schippers' work was popular with the director of the Stedelijk Museum in Amsterdam, Willem Sandberg, who bought many of his drawings and collages." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_T._Schippers
|
|
Dive Jedi
Junior Member
Posts โข 6,160
Likes โข 9,391
October 2015
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by Dive Jedi on Jun 19, 2018 18:15:24 GMT 1, The concept is from 1962. It's described as a floor sculpture. It's Saatchi and the dead shark publicity game basically. Put some aboslute crap in a big gallery use the media contacts to create a fuss about it, create publicity, market it and sell it to wealthy investors. The art world really is as shallow as that and has been for decades. "Throughout the 1960s Schippers' work was popular with the director of the Stedelijk Museum in Amsterdam, Willem Sandberg, who bought many of his drawings and collages." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_T._Schippers
I would like to add a useless trivia here: Wim T. Schippers is also the voice of Ernie in Sesame Street in NL.
So buy with confidence!
The concept is from 1962. It's described as a floor sculpture. It's Saatchi and the dead shark publicity game basically. Put some aboslute crap in a big gallery use the media contacts to create a fuss about it, create publicity, market it and sell it to wealthy investors. The art world really is as shallow as that and has been for decades. "Throughout the 1960s Schippers' work was popular with the director of the Stedelijk Museum in Amsterdam, Willem Sandberg, who bought many of his drawings and collages." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_T._Schippers
I would like to add a useless trivia here: Wim T. Schippers is also the voice of Ernie in Sesame Street in NL. So buy with confidence!
|
|
moron
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,711
Likes โข 1,050
September 2017
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by moron on Jun 19, 2018 19:30:53 GMT 1, It's been troubling me for time, I see all these prints at ยฃ500, ยฃ1000+ but it's just paper...the art should be gritty and be anarchic and yet it has become a pastiche. It's getting me down....Where are the street urchins, risk takers and yout who got nothing to lose? Art is outlet but where is the anger and disaffected voice of dissent? I'm bored, please help me connect with why I loved the scene! I cannot name one blue chip artist who voiced any dissent. I think that's the problem today. Virtue signalling sells and some artists and also investors or collectors in new artists are scared of artists that stick two fingers up to the art world, or go against the grain.
Look what happened to Chuck Connelly.
It's been troubling me for time, I see all these prints at ยฃ500, ยฃ1000+ but it's just paper...the art should be gritty and be anarchic and yet it has become a pastiche. It's getting me down....Where are the street urchins, risk takers and yout who got nothing to lose? Art is outlet but where is the anger and disaffected voice of dissent? I'm bored, please help me connect with why I loved the scene! I cannot name one blue chip artist who voiced any dissent. I think that's the problem today. Virtue signalling sells and some artists and also investors or collectors in new artists are scared of artists that stick two fingers up to the art world, or go against the grain. Look what happened to Chuck Connelly.
|
|
moron
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,711
Likes โข 1,050
September 2017
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by moron on Jun 19, 2018 19:32:48 GMT 1,
|
|
nobokov
Junior Member
Posts โข 4,873
Likes โข 6,786
February 2016
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by nobokov on Jun 19, 2018 20:06:28 GMT 1, It's been troubling me for time, I see all these prints at ยฃ500, ยฃ1000+ but it's just paper...the art should be gritty and be anarchic and yet it has become a pastiche. It's getting me down....Where are the street urchins, risk takers and yout who got nothing to lose? Art is outlet but where is the anger and disaffected voice of dissent? I'm bored, please help me connect with why I loved the scene! I cannot name one blue chip artist who voiced any dissent. I think that's the problem today. Virtue signalling sells and some artists and also investors or collectors in new artists are scared of artists that stick two fingers up to the art world, or go against the grain. Look what happened to Chuck Connelly. From that short video, it didn't really sound like he was rebelling, he just made a weird facial expression, and was ostracized. Quite the O-face apparently.
It's been troubling me for time, I see all these prints at ยฃ500, ยฃ1000+ but it's just paper...the art should be gritty and be anarchic and yet it has become a pastiche. It's getting me down....Where are the street urchins, risk takers and yout who got nothing to lose? Art is outlet but where is the anger and disaffected voice of dissent? I'm bored, please help me connect with why I loved the scene! I cannot name one blue chip artist who voiced any dissent. I think that's the problem today. Virtue signalling sells and some artists and also investors or collectors in new artists are scared of artists that stick two fingers up to the art world, or go against the grain. Look what happened to Chuck Connelly. From that short video, it didn't really sound like he was rebelling, he just made a weird facial expression, and was ostracized. Quite the O-face apparently.
|
|
|
shy
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,590
Likes โข 646
June 2018
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by shy on Jun 20, 2018 1:17:21 GMT 1, I buy a ton of prints and it is still very strong at the Top End. Excellent investments if you have the money to put out.
The Counter Edition Shrigley set is nails!
And the Harland Miller Tonight print is a Slam Dunk!!! Home Run!!!
I buy a ton of prints and it is still very strong at the Top End. Excellent investments if you have the money to put out.
The Counter Edition Shrigley set is nails!
And the Harland Miller Tonight print is a Slam Dunk!!! Home Run!!!
|
|
nobokov
Junior Member
Posts โข 4,873
Likes โข 6,786
February 2016
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by nobokov on Jun 20, 2018 1:21:20 GMT 1,
I buy a ton of prints and it is still very strong at the Top End. Excellent investments if you have the money to put out. The Counter Edition Shrigley set is nails! And the Harland Miller Tonight print is a Slam Dunk!!! Home Run!!!
You're way too bold for this forum. Two sports references back to back?!
I buy a ton of prints and it is still very strong at the Top End. Excellent investments if you have the money to put out. The Counter Edition Shrigley set is nails! And the Harland Miller Tonight print is a Slam Dunk!!! Home Run!!! You're way too bold for this forum. Two sports references back to back?!
|
|
Leo Boyd
Artist
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,442
Likes โข 2,013
June 2016
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by Leo Boyd on Jun 20, 2018 8:06:33 GMT 1, Personally I don't mind the massive slab of floor peanut butter But that maybe because I have just woken up and am really hungry Maybe I'll hate it after breakfast? So that proves the subjectivity of art has a lot to do with what time it is and how much you have eaten .
this from the wikipedia page on peanutbutter-carpet-man Schippers' art work is praised for its sense of humor; when a dozen journalists stood pensively around the peanut butter platform, Schippers cried out, "Isn't this fantastic! We're all watching peanut butter!"
Personally I don't mind the massive slab of floor peanut butter But that maybe because I have just woken up and am really hungry Maybe I'll hate it after breakfast? So that proves the subjectivity of art has a lot to do with what time it is and how much you have eaten .
this from the wikipedia page on peanutbutter-carpet-man Schippers' art work is praised for its sense of humor; when a dozen journalists stood pensively around the peanut butter platform, Schippers cried out, "Isn't this fantastic! We're all watching peanut butter!"
|
|
Guy Denning
Artist
New Member
Posts โข 636
Likes โข 1,281
July 2007
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by Guy Denning on Jun 20, 2018 9:03:04 GMT 1, If your primary reason for buying art is 'investment' then, in my opinion, you're buying art for the wrong reason. And the primary reason for prints, as stated before, was that they allowed people not blessed with the disposable to bathe in asses' milk to be able to afford art from the same hand as those that could stump up for one-off originals (which historically were expensive due to the time taken to make them). If the print 'game' (and it's not a game for artists whose career is to carefully craft artisanal prints alone) has 'gone soft' then it's because the 'soft' part of the market is clearly overvalued. And that overvaluation is due to greed - plain and simple. It may be on the part of the artist, the secondary market dealer or the primary market gallerist... but it's greed. It will be defended on the basis of 'it's what the market will support' but we can now see that it plainly isn't what the market will support. I know personally of two prints that I've bought over the last couple of years that were 'sold out' on their initial release - but I discovered them (plus many more) in the plan chests of a gallery (direct from the artist). Smoke and mirrors.
If your primary reason for buying art is 'investment' then, in my opinion, you're buying art for the wrong reason. And the primary reason for prints, as stated before, was that they allowed people not blessed with the disposable to bathe in asses' milk to be able to afford art from the same hand as those that could stump up for one-off originals (which historically were expensive due to the time taken to make them). If the print 'game' (and it's not a game for artists whose career is to carefully craft artisanal prints alone) has 'gone soft' then it's because the 'soft' part of the market is clearly overvalued. And that overvaluation is due to greed - plain and simple. It may be on the part of the artist, the secondary market dealer or the primary market gallerist... but it's greed. It will be defended on the basis of 'it's what the market will support' but we can now see that it plainly isn't what the market will support. I know personally of two prints that I've bought over the last couple of years that were 'sold out' on their initial release - but I discovered them (plus many more) in the plan chests of a gallery (direct from the artist). Smoke and mirrors.
|
|
Icesay
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,426
Likes โข 1,796
March 2010
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by Icesay on Jun 20, 2018 19:30:20 GMT 1, Yeah you're right Guy smoke and mirrors! I'm curious.....if we buy prints because it's an affordable way to get artists we love on the wall, why do artists price them so high? If an artist has integrity he wants them in the hands of collectors no? So why then do they allow bullshit promotion tactics? Greed? I get the need to make a living but just can't get past why people buy in to fake shit. Limited edition my arse. In a forum like this we could influence things in some small way and yet we don't share knowledge , perhaps to line our own pockets? Soon as money comes into it it fucks shit up.
Yeah you're right Guy smoke and mirrors! I'm curious.....if we buy prints because it's an affordable way to get artists we love on the wall, why do artists price them so high? If an artist has integrity he wants them in the hands of collectors no? So why then do they allow bullshit promotion tactics? Greed? I get the need to make a living but just can't get past why people buy in to fake shit. Limited edition my arse. In a forum like this we could influence things in some small way and yet we don't share knowledge , perhaps to line our own pockets? Soon as money comes into it it fucks shit up.
|
|
wrigs
New Member
Posts โข 497
Likes โข 417
July 2017
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by wrigs on Jun 20, 2018 20:34:41 GMT 1, Sadly until I find that elusive money tree prints will be the only way in which Iโll get something on my walls thatโs not straight from ikea. Relatively new to getting back into art and the prints Iโve found more accessible. Would love an original but with quotes of ยฃ5k upwards from some of the art Iโve liked its looking like prints for the foreseeable ๐
Sadly until I find that elusive money tree prints will be the only way in which Iโll get something on my walls thatโs not straight from ikea. Relatively new to getting back into art and the prints Iโve found more accessible. Would love an original but with quotes of ยฃ5k upwards from some of the art Iโve liked its looking like prints for the foreseeable ๐
|
|
coller
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,380
Likes โข 2,371
April 2015
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by coller on Jun 21, 2018 2:22:53 GMT 1, if someone releases a giclee they better handfinish the thing. gimme that texture.
print game still alive, people are just releasing some garbage lately. a lot of new artists with little talent floating around, with obvious exceptions.
that said, i can name at least 10 prints released in last 1-2 years that are top notch. love the new pejac print that i'll probably have to get on ebay.
if someone releases a giclee they better handfinish the thing. gimme that texture.
print game still alive, people are just releasing some garbage lately. a lot of new artists with little talent floating around, with obvious exceptions.
that said, i can name at least 10 prints released in last 1-2 years that are top notch. love the new pejac print that i'll probably have to get on ebay.
|
|
qest
New Member
Posts โข 612
Likes โข 707
Member is Online
March 2018
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by qest on Jun 21, 2018 4:05:37 GMT 1, if someone releases a giclee they better handfinish the thing. gimme that texture. print game still alive, people are just releasing some garbage lately. a lot of new artists with little talent floating around, with obvious exceptions. that said, i can name at least 10 prints released in last 1-2 years that are top notch. love the new pejac print that i'll probably have to get on ebay. That's interesting. I'd be interested in hearing yours, and anyone else's top 10 over that period.
if someone releases a giclee they better handfinish the thing. gimme that texture. print game still alive, people are just releasing some garbage lately. a lot of new artists with little talent floating around, with obvious exceptions. that said, i can name at least 10 prints released in last 1-2 years that are top notch. love the new pejac print that i'll probably have to get on ebay.That's interesting. I'd be interested in hearing yours, and anyone else's top 10 over that period.
|
|
|
Guy Denning
Artist
New Member
Posts โข 636
Likes โข 1,281
July 2007
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by Guy Denning on Jun 21, 2018 9:52:41 GMT 1, Yeah you're right Guy smoke and mirrors! I'm curious.....if we buy prints because it's an affordable way to get artists we love on the wall, why do artists price them so high? If an artist has integrity he wants them in the hands of collectors no? Not all artists do price them high. To be honest, sometimes the pricing is out of their hands, but if one of my galleries wanted to release a several coloured screen-print of my work for a four figure price I'd tell 'em to shove it up their arse. It's taking the piss. My old lino print crow edition, which was physically made by me alone... and 'hand-finished'... was sold (I think I remember right) for ยฃ50 a shot... I've done editions of my drawings with photocopiers (because in my head the photocopier serves exactly the same purpose as the engraving presses of yore) and sold them (again forgive my old-fart memory if I'm wrong) for a couple of quid a shot. As for the insane pricing of some blue-chip artist giclee prints and the like... or 'lithographs' and 'etchings' that are, in fact, just mechanical photographic processes now... don't get me started.
Also remember that the punters are sometimes contributing to the high prices... The art world, at all levels, is full of people that like their bragging rights about how much something cost. And I have had one potential punter turn away from my work (and told my gallery clearly) because my work wasn't expensive enough for his collection. He liked it, but he couldn't add it to his list of mega-dollar names on the wall.
Personally, being a west-country, old-punk tight-wad, I celebrate the bargain - not the rip-off.
Yeah you're right Guy smoke and mirrors! I'm curious.....if we buy prints because it's an affordable way to get artists we love on the wall, why do artists price them so high? If an artist has integrity he wants them in the hands of collectors no? Not all artists do price them high. To be honest, sometimes the pricing is out of their hands, but if one of my galleries wanted to release a several coloured screen-print of my work for a four figure price I'd tell 'em to shove it up their arse. It's taking the piss. My old lino print crow edition, which was physically made by me alone... and 'hand-finished'... was sold (I think I remember right) for ยฃ50 a shot... I've done editions of my drawings with photocopiers (because in my head the photocopier serves exactly the same purpose as the engraving presses of yore) and sold them (again forgive my old-fart memory if I'm wrong) for a couple of quid a shot. As for the insane pricing of some blue-chip artist giclee prints and the like... or 'lithographs' and 'etchings' that are, in fact, just mechanical photographic processes now... don't get me started.
Also remember that the punters are sometimes contributing to the high prices... The art world, at all levels, is full of people that like their bragging rights about how much something cost. And I have had one potential punter turn away from my work (and told my gallery clearly) because my work wasn't expensive enough for his collection. He liked it, but he couldn't add it to his list of mega-dollar names on the wall.
Personally, being a west-country, old-punk tight-wad, I celebrate the bargain - not the rip-off.
|
|
iamzero
Full Member
Posts โข 9,190
Likes โข 8,542
May 2011
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by iamzero on Jun 21, 2018 9:57:34 GMT 1, Those crows were beautifully done by the way...
Those crows were beautifully done by the way...
|
|
Graffiti Prints
Art Gallery
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,238
Likes โข 2,127
December 2006
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by Graffiti Prints on Jun 21, 2018 12:41:25 GMT 1, Yeah you're right Guy smoke and mirrors! I'm curious.....if we buy prints because it's an affordable way to get artists we love on the wall, why do artists price them so high? If an artist has integrity he wants them in the hands of collectors no? So why then do they allow bullshit promotion tactics? Greed? I get the need to make a living but just can't get past why people buy in to fakes**t. Limited edition my arse. In a forum like this we could influence things in some small way and yet we don't share knowledge , perhaps to line our own pockets? Soon as money comes into it it fuckss**t up. in my experience its the market that generally pushes up prices on print releases and originals.
all the artists i work with make prints to give a excellent representation of the original work in print as not everyone can afford the original work.
we always start off at around ยฃ125 to ยฃ195, which considering we go up to 24 odd colours is a great price.
then they are flipped sometimes straight after or within couple of years for way more as the artist grows in popularity.
when we see them start to be flipped for say x2.5-5 of the original price we know from experience if we sell the next release too cheap all we will do is attract a boat load of flippers and loads end up on ebay
flippers are expert buyers and know all the tricks on all the sites to check out quick.
so we try to price as keen as we can but without making it a no brainer easy instant flip.
if i take an example of invader, his last two prints have been ยฃ1000+ which i totally understand as even at that price it still does not put off the flipper.
we had same thing with whatson, findac, chevrier and others.
we don't sit and say to each other what can we ring out of the collectors for this print, the opposite we say whats the best price we can sell for without the flipping going crazy.
most places worth there salt releasing prints stay below market values and that comes from both the publisher and artist wanting to reach the fans.
i have seen in the last couple of years others moving away from this and selling on release at secondary prices, who knows what's right, but i feel prints are for fans and all publishers should remember that, i hear the people screaming your vault sales at this point.
when i sell on vault later with the low numbers i keep and proofs i sell at just below secondary price as why would i give it away so long after the release as 95% of the time we sell on vault 18 months after a release.
all publishers keep prints, we generally keep 1-5 or up to no.10.
i hate to see artists getting s**t for suppling their fans with work and it becoming a poisoned chalice, more successful they become, the more the prices rise, the more s**t they get when they never dreamed they would have those issues in the beginning just to supply a print.
look at banksy they were fighting outside pow in a Q, put him right off making prints.
Yeah you're right Guy smoke and mirrors! I'm curious.....if we buy prints because it's an affordable way to get artists we love on the wall, why do artists price them so high? If an artist has integrity he wants them in the hands of collectors no? So why then do they allow bullshit promotion tactics? Greed? I get the need to make a living but just can't get past why people buy in to fakes**t. Limited edition my arse. In a forum like this we could influence things in some small way and yet we don't share knowledge , perhaps to line our own pockets? Soon as money comes into it it fuckss**t up. in my experience its the market that generally pushes up prices on print releases and originals. all the artists i work with make prints to give a excellent representation of the original work in print as not everyone can afford the original work. we always start off at around ยฃ125 to ยฃ195, which considering we go up to 24 odd colours is a great price. then they are flipped sometimes straight after or within couple of years for way more as the artist grows in popularity. when we see them start to be flipped for say x2.5-5 of the original price we know from experience if we sell the next release too cheap all we will do is attract a boat load of flippers and loads end up on ebay flippers are expert buyers and know all the tricks on all the sites to check out quick. so we try to price as keen as we can but without making it a no brainer easy instant flip. if i take an example of invader, his last two prints have been ยฃ1000+ which i totally understand as even at that price it still does not put off the flipper. we had same thing with whatson, findac, chevrier and others. we don't sit and say to each other what can we ring out of the collectors for this print, the opposite we say whats the best price we can sell for without the flipping going crazy. most places worth there salt releasing prints stay below market values and that comes from both the publisher and artist wanting to reach the fans. i have seen in the last couple of years others moving away from this and selling on release at secondary prices, who knows what's right, but i feel prints are for fans and all publishers should remember that, i hear the people screaming your vault sales at this point. when i sell on vault later with the low numbers i keep and proofs i sell at just below secondary price as why would i give it away so long after the release as 95% of the time we sell on vault 18 months after a release. all publishers keep prints, we generally keep 1-5 or up to no.10. i hate to see artists getting s**t for suppling their fans with work and it becoming a poisoned chalice, more successful they become, the more the prices rise, the more s**t they get when they never dreamed they would have those issues in the beginning just to supply a print. look at banksy they were fighting outside pow in a Q, put him right off making prints.
|
|
Deleted
Posts โข 0
Likes โข
January 1970
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by Deleted on Jun 21, 2018 13:02:16 GMT 1, Yeah you're right Guy smoke and mirrors! I'm curious.....if we buy prints because it's an affordable way to get artists we love on the wall, why do artists price them so high? If an artist has integrity he wants them in the hands of collectors no? So why then do they allow bullshit promotion tactics? Greed? I get the need to make a living but just can't get past why people buy in to fakes**t. Limited edition my arse. In a forum like this we could influence things in some small way and yet we don't share knowledge , perhaps to line our own pockets? Soon as money comes into it it fuckss**t up. in my experience its the market that generally pushes up prices on print releases and originals. all the artists i work with make prints to give a excellent representation of the original work in print as not everyone can afford the original work. we always start off at around ยฃ125 to ยฃ195, which considering we go up to 24 odd colours is a great price. then they are flipped sometimes straight after or within couple of years for way more as the artist grows in popularity. when we see them start to be flipped for say x2.5-5 of the original price we know from experience if we sell the next release too cheap all we will do is attract a boat load of flippers and loads end up on ebayย flippers are expert buyers and know all the tricks on all the sites to check out quick. so we try to price as keen as we can but without making it a no brainer easy instant flip. if i take an example of invader, his last two prints have been ยฃ1000+ which i totally understand as even at that price it still does not put off the flipper. we had same thing with whatson, findac, chevrier and others. we don't sit and say to each other what can we ring out of the collectors for this print, the opposite we say whats the best price we can sell for without the flipping going crazy. most places worth there salt releasing prints stay below market values and that comes from both the publisher and artist wanting to reach the fans. i have seen in the last couple of years others moving away from this and selling on release at secondary prices, who knows what's right, but i feel prints are for fans and all publishers should remember that, i hear the people screaming your vault sales at this point. when i sell on vault later with the low numbers i keep and proofs i sell at just below secondary price as why would i give it away so long after the release as 95% of the time we sell on vault 18 months after a release. all publishers keep prints, we generally keep 1-5 or up to no.10. i hate to see artists getting s**t for suppling their fans with work and it becoming a poisoned chalice, more successful they become, the more the prices rise, the more s**t they get when they never dreamed they would have those issues in the beginning just to supply a print. look at banksy they were fighting outside pow in a Q, put him right off making prints.
Would doing an edition of say 1000 solve above? Or timed editions?
If there is more demand then there are prints, then do timed releases so all fans are happy and the profiteers are left without errrr profit
Yeah you're right Guy smoke and mirrors! I'm curious.....if we buy prints because it's an affordable way to get artists we love on the wall, why do artists price them so high? If an artist has integrity he wants them in the hands of collectors no? So why then do they allow bullshit promotion tactics? Greed? I get the need to make a living but just can't get past why people buy in to fakes**t. Limited edition my arse. In a forum like this we could influence things in some small way and yet we don't share knowledge , perhaps to line our own pockets? Soon as money comes into it it fuckss**t up. in my experience its the market that generally pushes up prices on print releases and originals. all the artists i work with make prints to give a excellent representation of the original work in print as not everyone can afford the original work. we always start off at around ยฃ125 to ยฃ195, which considering we go up to 24 odd colours is a great price. then they are flipped sometimes straight after or within couple of years for way more as the artist grows in popularity. when we see them start to be flipped for say x2.5-5 of the original price we know from experience if we sell the next release too cheap all we will do is attract a boat load of flippers and loads end up on ebayย flippers are expert buyers and know all the tricks on all the sites to check out quick. so we try to price as keen as we can but without making it a no brainer easy instant flip. if i take an example of invader, his last two prints have been ยฃ1000+ which i totally understand as even at that price it still does not put off the flipper. we had same thing with whatson, findac, chevrier and others. we don't sit and say to each other what can we ring out of the collectors for this print, the opposite we say whats the best price we can sell for without the flipping going crazy. most places worth there salt releasing prints stay below market values and that comes from both the publisher and artist wanting to reach the fans. i have seen in the last couple of years others moving away from this and selling on release at secondary prices, who knows what's right, but i feel prints are for fans and all publishers should remember that, i hear the people screaming your vault sales at this point. when i sell on vault later with the low numbers i keep and proofs i sell at just below secondary price as why would i give it away so long after the release as 95% of the time we sell on vault 18 months after a release. all publishers keep prints, we generally keep 1-5 or up to no.10. i hate to see artists getting s**t for suppling their fans with work and it becoming a poisoned chalice, more successful they become, the more the prices rise, the more s**t they get when they never dreamed they would have those issues in the beginning just to supply a print. look at banksy they were fighting outside pow in a Q, put him right off making prints. Would doing an edition of say 1000 solve above? Or timed editions? If there is more demand then there are prints, then do timed releases so all fans are happy and the profiteers are left without errrr profit
|
|
Graffiti Prints
Art Gallery
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,238
Likes โข 2,127
December 2006
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by Graffiti Prints on Jun 21, 2018 14:51:35 GMT 1, Would doing an edition of say 1000 solve above? Or timed editions?
If there is more demand then there are prints, then do timed releases so all fans are happy and the profiteers are left without errrr profit[/quote]
Maybe it would help, but I find most artists want small editions regardless of popularity
The thought of a timed edition on say whatson fills me with dread we would sell thousands and then itโs basiclly a poster imo
Biggest edition we ever done was 300 for a whatson Chevrier collab
That felt large at the time I donโt see us going over that figure of 300 unless the artist insists
Even banksy caps his at 500 when he knows he could sell 5000 just as easy at ยฃ500.
Would doing an edition of say 1000 solve above? Or timed editions?
If there is more demand then there are prints, then do timed releases so all fans are happy and the profiteers are left without errrr profit[/quote]
Maybe it would help, but I find most artists want small editions regardless of popularity
The thought of a timed edition on say whatson fills me with dread we would sell thousands and then itโs basiclly a poster imo
Biggest edition we ever done was 300 for a whatson Chevrier collab
That felt large at the time I donโt see us going over that figure of 300 unless the artist insists
Even banksy caps his at 500 when he knows he could sell 5000 just as easy at ยฃ500.
|
|
Deleted
Posts โข 0
Likes โข
January 1970
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by Deleted on Jun 21, 2018 16:07:17 GMT 1, @graffitiprints
Thanks for the reply
I still see a timed edition or 1000+ edition as perhaps a way of ensuring prints get to the right people, and also seeing what the actual demand is for the print rather than smaller editions which creates the desire for profit from most people and a maybe gives a false reading on how popular an artist is Vs how much people can make on the back of said artist?
I don't think historically ( 20 year+ ago) there was much profit to be made by the public by trading prints and they were, as said somewhere above for collectors who cannot afford an original by the artist?
Now they are like commodities, and the collector (the guy that should really count) unfortunately is left bitter as they are mopped up by the portfolio queens and people who buy and sell quickly (similar to concert tickets)
No need to reply (unless you want to, as not really aimed at Yourself but at the whole print market), just giving my view and again thanks for getting back
@graffitiprints
Thanks for the reply
I still see a timed edition or 1000+ edition as perhaps a way of ensuring prints get to the right people, and also seeing what the actual demand is for the print rather than smaller editions which creates the desire for profit from most people and a maybe gives a false reading on how popular an artist is Vs how much people can make on the back of said artist?
I don't think historically ( 20 year+ ago) there was much profit to be made by the public by trading prints and they were, as said somewhere above for collectors who cannot afford an original by the artist?
Now they are like commodities, and the collector (the guy that should really count) unfortunately is left bitter as they are mopped up by the portfolio queens and people who buy and sell quickly (similar to concert tickets)
No need to reply (unless you want to, as not really aimed at Yourself but at the whole print market), just giving my view and again thanks for getting back
|
|
coller
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,380
Likes โข 2,371
April 2015
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by coller on Jun 21, 2018 16:30:05 GMT 1, if someone releases a giclee they better handfinish the thing. gimme that texture. print game still alive, people are just releasing some garbage lately. a lot of new artists with little talent floating around, with obvious exceptions. that said, i can name at least 10 prints released in last 1-2 years that are top notch. love the new pejac print that i'll probably have to get on ebay.That's interesting. I'd be interested in hearing yours, and anyone else's top 10 over that period. sure, right after i successfully acquire the 6 out of 10 that are still missing from my collection
i'll share the ones that i purchased in the past 1-2 years that i love >> sale ends, RVE, scattercrow, greater than fear
if someone releases a giclee they better handfinish the thing. gimme that texture. print game still alive, people are just releasing some garbage lately. a lot of new artists with little talent floating around, with obvious exceptions. that said, i can name at least 10 prints released in last 1-2 years that are top notch. love the new pejac print that i'll probably have to get on ebay.That's interesting. I'd be interested in hearing yours, and anyone else's top 10 over that period. sure, right after i successfully acquire the 6 out of 10 that are still missing from my collection i'll share the ones that i purchased in the past 1-2 years that i love >> sale ends, RVE, scattercrow, greater than fear
|
|
irl1
Full Member
Posts โข 9,274
Likes โข 9,380
December 2017
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by irl1 on Jun 21, 2018 17:19:04 GMT 1, How about the artist announces he/she is bringing a print out on (date). You then get a month or so to order and "pay" for the print. Then on the closing date stated they close and you can't order anymore. Lets say they have 570 people paid up, then round off the number to a limited edition of 600. (just using these numbers as an example, it could be 6,000) This way most collectors will get one and all the flippers can buy as many as they want, but can't see them reselling at high prices. I think this way anyone who knows or follows the artist will have a chance to buy one at a reasonable price, and the artist will sell more, everyone wins!
How about the artist announces he/she is bringing a print out on (date). You then get a month or so to order and "pay" for the print. Then on the closing date stated they close and you can't order anymore. Lets say they have 570 people paid up, then round off the number to a limited edition of 600. (just using these numbers as an example, it could be 6,000) This way most collectors will get one and all the flippers can buy as many as they want, but can't see them reselling at high prices. I think this way anyone who knows or follows the artist will have a chance to buy one at a reasonable price, and the artist will sell more, everyone wins!
|
|
|
Icesay
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,426
Likes โข 1,796
March 2010
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by Icesay on Jun 21, 2018 18:22:43 GMT 1, Surely artists want their art in the hands and on the walls of their fans. I di often think the artist avoids a timed release as it will show just how many people actually want a particular piece. It's a no brainer for me and actually I think it would improve an artists standing in some ways. If pretending to be popular is a driver then its bollocks!
Surely artists want their art in the hands and on the walls of their fans. I di often think the artist avoids a timed release as it will show just how many people actually want a particular piece. It's a no brainer for me and actually I think it would improve an artists standing in some ways. If pretending to be popular is a driver then its bollocks!
|
|
Deleted
Posts โข 0
Likes โข
January 1970
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by Deleted on Jun 21, 2018 18:29:39 GMT 1, How about the artist announces he/she is bringing a print out on (date). You then get a month or so to order and "pay" for the print. Then on the closing date stated they close and you can't order anymore. Lets say they have 570 people paid up, then round off the number to a limited edition of 600. (just using these numbers as an example, it could be 6,000) This way most collectors will get one and all the flippers can buy as many as they want, but can't see them reselling at high prices. I think this way anyone who knows or follows the artist will have a chance to buy one at a reasonable price, and the artist will sell more, everyone wins!ย
This would work well for an artist that doesnโt need or seek hype and has more self belief about their longevity. Too many artists I reckon doubt their ability and think too much about their market. Take Geddes or Josh Keyes, they both strike me as artists happy in their ability and are happy do open releases. They donโt need to go to lengths of Banksy, Stik or Pejac to manipulate and control their markets. Interesting if artists breaking into the big league make a conscious decision to restrict demand or if that decision is made for them by management or advisors?
How about the artist announces he/she is bringing a print out on (date). You then get a month or so to order and "pay" for the print. Then on the closing date stated they close and you can't order anymore. Lets say they have 570 people paid up, then round off the number to a limited edition of 600. (just using these numbers as an example, it could be 6,000) This way most collectors will get one and all the flippers can buy as many as they want, but can't see them reselling at high prices. I think this way anyone who knows or follows the artist will have a chance to buy one at a reasonable price, and the artist will sell more, everyone wins!ย This would work well for an artist that doesnโt need or seek hype and has more self belief about their longevity. Too many artists I reckon doubt their ability and think too much about their market. Take Geddes or Josh Keyes, they both strike me as artists happy in their ability and are happy do open releases. They donโt need to go to lengths of Banksy, Stik or Pejac to manipulate and control their markets. Interesting if artists breaking into the big league make a conscious decision to restrict demand or if that decision is made for them by management or advisors?
|
|
chevyav53
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,356
Likes โข 1,134
August 2017
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by chevyav53 on Jun 21, 2018 18:38:53 GMT 1, I think it is over saturated as opposed to soft. Over the last year I have definitely been turned off by some artists who put out a lot of the same work. I think a lot of people are many float around for sale.
As for timed releases, as mentioned above, its a poster then. Depends on the artist as well, some don't mined timed releases or putting out "posters" such as James Jean while others see their are as more a craft and special to have smaller more personalized runs or screen prints over giclee etc....
I think it is over saturated as opposed to soft. Over the last year I have definitely been turned off by some artists who put out a lot of the same work. I think a lot of people are many float around for sale.
As for timed releases, as mentioned above, its a poster then. Depends on the artist as well, some don't mined timed releases or putting out "posters" such as James Jean while others see their are as more a craft and special to have smaller more personalized runs or screen prints over giclee etc....
|
|
Poster Bob
Junior Member
Posts โข 5,810
Likes โข 5,419
September 2013
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by Poster Bob on Jun 21, 2018 18:44:23 GMT 1, Hirst's print game is on point. Just dropped a goddamn BOMB.
Hirst's print game is on point. Just dropped a goddamn BOMB.
|
|
irl1
Full Member
Posts โข 9,274
Likes โข 9,380
December 2017
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by irl1 on Jun 21, 2018 18:59:04 GMT 1, I think it is over saturated as opposed to soft. Over the last year I have definitely been turned off by some artists who put out a lot of the same work. I think a lot of people are many float around for sale. As for timed releases, as mentioned above, its a poster then. Depends on the artist as well, some don't mined timed releases or putting out "posters" such as James Jean while others see their are as more a craft and special to have smaller more personalized runs or screen prints over giclee etc.... The whole idea of the prints is so people who can't afford an original can buy a print, but now even that is gone for a lot of people. As for calling them "posters", call them what you want, its the only way for some people. In my eyes a splash of paint on a print does not mean its hand finished, that's a load of bull. For me a hand finished print should mean the artist should paint/draw something on the print. All these Gold edition, Blue edition, this and that edition, its just to charge more.
Soon we will have a "Signed by my Agent edition"
I think it is over saturated as opposed to soft. Over the last year I have definitely been turned off by some artists who put out a lot of the same work. I think a lot of people are many float around for sale. As for timed releases, as mentioned above, its a poster then. Depends on the artist as well, some don't mined timed releases or putting out "posters" such as James Jean while others see their are as more a craft and special to have smaller more personalized runs or screen prints over giclee etc.... The whole idea of the prints is so people who can't afford an original can buy a print, but now even that is gone for a lot of people. As for calling them "posters", call them what you want, its the only way for some people. In my eyes a splash of paint on a print does not mean its hand finished, that's a load of bull. For me a hand finished print should mean the artist should paint/draw something on the print. All these Gold edition, Blue edition, this and that edition, its just to charge more. Soon we will have a "Signed by my Agent edition"
|
|
Deleted
Posts โข 0
Likes โข
January 1970
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by Deleted on Jun 21, 2018 19:00:27 GMT 1, I think it is over saturated as opposed to soft. Over the last year I have definitely been turned off by some artists who put out a lot of the same work. I think a lot of people are many float around for sale. As for timed releases, as mentioned above, its a poster then. Depends on the artist as well, some don't mined timed releases or putting out "posters" such as James Jean while others see their are as more a craft and special to have smaller more personalized runs or screen prints over giclee etc.... The whole idea of the prints is so people who can't afford an original can buy a print, but now even that is gone for a lot of people. As for calling them "posters", call them what you want, its the only way for some people. In my eyes a splash of paint on a print does not mean its hand finished, that's a load of bull. For me a hand finished print should mean the artist should paint/draw something on the print. All these Gold edition, Blue edition, this and that edition, its just to charge more. Soon we will have a "Signed by my Agent edition"
I have a Laz thumb print
I think it is over saturated as opposed to soft. Over the last year I have definitely been turned off by some artists who put out a lot of the same work. I think a lot of people are many float around for sale. As for timed releases, as mentioned above, its a poster then. Depends on the artist as well, some don't mined timed releases or putting out "posters" such as James Jean while others see their are as more a craft and special to have smaller more personalized runs or screen prints over giclee etc.... The whole idea of the prints is so people who can't afford an original can buy a print, but now even that is gone for a lot of people. As for calling them "posters", call them what you want, its the only way for some people. In my eyes a splash of paint on a print does not mean its hand finished, that's a load of bull. For me a hand finished print should mean the artist should paint/draw something on the print. All these Gold edition, Blue edition, this and that edition, its just to charge more. Soon we will have a "Signed by my Agent edition" I have a Laz thumb print
|
|
Deleted
Posts โข 0
Likes โข
January 1970
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by Deleted on Jun 21, 2018 19:21:49 GMT 1, I think it is over saturated as opposed to soft. Over the last year I have definitely been turned off by some artists who put out a lot of the same work. I think a lot of people are many float around for sale. As for timed releases, as mentioned above, its a poster then. Depends on the artist as well, some don't mined timed releases or putting out "posters" such as James Jean while others see their are as more a craft and special to have smaller more personalized runs or screen prints over giclee etc....
Iโd view a poster as in general a lower quality production and typically on poorer quality paper. A print should have in some respect an element of artist production hence an artist being prepared to sign it. Giclees do blur the line somewhat though. But I donโt share your view that an open release equals a poster.
I think it is over saturated as opposed to soft. Over the last year I have definitely been turned off by some artists who put out a lot of the same work. I think a lot of people are many float around for sale. As for timed releases, as mentioned above, its a poster then. Depends on the artist as well, some don't mined timed releases or putting out "posters" such as James Jean while others see their are as more a craft and special to have smaller more personalized runs or screen prints over giclee etc.... Iโd view a poster as in general a lower quality production and typically on poorer quality paper. A print should have in some respect an element of artist production hence an artist being prepared to sign it. Giclees do blur the line somewhat though. But I donโt share your view that an open release equals a poster.
|
|
chevyav53
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,356
Likes โข 1,134
August 2017
|
Has the print game gone soft!?, by chevyav53 on Jun 21, 2018 19:47:12 GMT 1, I think it is over saturated as opposed to soft................ ............... Soon we will have a "Signed by my Agent edition" Mr. Brainwash
I think it is over saturated as opposed to soft................ ............... Soon we will have a "Signed by my Agent edition" Mr. Brainwash
|
|