Shoeless
Junior Member
Posts • 1,105
Likes • 613
February 2011
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Auction vs Private sale value, by Shoeless on Oct 27, 2020 19:05:33 GMT 1, I realize this discussion has been had before, but I was hoping to have opinions gathered for reference. It seems to be up for debate and may be helpful considering the market is constantly moving.
Banksy-value.com has been a good guide on current auction results but how does that reflect private sale pricing?
We are all aware that consignment with auction houses have various fees applied to the sale. Sellers fees of roughly 5-10%. Buyers fees reaching 34%. And then the hammer prices.
I have seen the following regarding fair private sale asking prices:
-Average hammer price.
-Average amount that buyer actually pays (hammer+fees).
-Average hammer price minus ~10% seller fee
-Somewhere in the middle of what buyer actually pays and what seller actually receives
I do understand that a seller can ask whatever they’d like and it may or may not sell. It would be nice to see others thoughts on this.
I realize this discussion has been had before, but I was hoping to have opinions gathered for reference. It seems to be up for debate and may be helpful considering the market is constantly moving.
Banksy-value.com has been a good guide on current auction results but how does that reflect private sale pricing?
We are all aware that consignment with auction houses have various fees applied to the sale. Sellers fees of roughly 5-10%. Buyers fees reaching 34%. And then the hammer prices.
I have seen the following regarding fair private sale asking prices:
-Average hammer price.
-Average amount that buyer actually pays (hammer+fees).
-Average hammer price minus ~10% seller fee
-Somewhere in the middle of what buyer actually pays and what seller actually receives
I do understand that a seller can ask whatever they’d like and it may or may not sell. It would be nice to see others thoughts on this.
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teabaggins
New Member
Posts • 930
Likes • 1,559
November 2018
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Auction vs Private sale value, by teabaggins on Oct 27, 2020 19:25:18 GMT 1, I realize this discussion has been had before, but I was hoping to have opinions gathered for reference. It seems to be up for debate and may be helpful considering the market is constantly moving. Banksy-value.com has been a good guide on current auction results but how does that reflect private sale pricing? We are all aware that consignment with auction houses have various fees applied to the sale. Sellers fees of roughly 5-10%. Buyers fees reaching 34%. And then the hammer prices. I have seen the following regarding fair private sale asking prices: -Average hammer price. -Average amount that buyer actually pays (hammer+fees). -Average hammer price minus ~10% seller fee -Somewhere in the middle of what buyer actually pays and what seller actually receives I do understand that a seller can ask whatever they’d like and it may or may not sell. It would be nice to see others thoughts on this.
I realize this discussion has been had before, but I was hoping to have opinions gathered for reference. It seems to be up for debate and may be helpful considering the market is constantly moving. Banksy-value.com has been a good guide on current auction results but how does that reflect private sale pricing? We are all aware that consignment with auction houses have various fees applied to the sale. Sellers fees of roughly 5-10%. Buyers fees reaching 34%. And then the hammer prices. I have seen the following regarding fair private sale asking prices: -Average hammer price. -Average amount that buyer actually pays (hammer+fees). -Average hammer price minus ~10% seller fee -Somewhere in the middle of what buyer actually pays and what seller actually receives I do understand that a seller can ask whatever they’d like and it may or may not sell. It would be nice to see others thoughts on this. The answer to this will always depend on if it is the buyer the or seller that is answering unfortunately. |
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Red Barron
New Member
Posts • 114
Likes • 168
November 2013
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Auction vs Private sale value, by Red Barron on Oct 27, 2020 20:23:22 GMT 1, I’ve always thought auction results thrown out on here should mention:
1) Hammer - estimated seller fees (understanding these can be negotiated)
2) Hammer + all buyers fees
So a 100k print with 5% seller fee and 35% buyer fee would be shown as 95k Seller / 135k Buyer.
Private sales would likely happen somewhere between those two prices depending on demand, price direction, how much the lottery paid out that week, etc. Of course the middle price point would be 115k or roughly 15% lower than the “all in” price.
I’ve always thought auction results thrown out on here should mention:
1) Hammer - estimated seller fees (understanding these can be negotiated)
2) Hammer + all buyers fees
So a 100k print with 5% seller fee and 35% buyer fee would be shown as 95k Seller / 135k Buyer.
Private sales would likely happen somewhere between those two prices depending on demand, price direction, how much the lottery paid out that week, etc. Of course the middle price point would be 115k or roughly 15% lower than the “all in” price.
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RoboJ
Artist
Junior Member
Posts • 1,201
Likes • 1,329
Member is Online
July 2015
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Auction vs Private sale value, by RoboJ on Oct 27, 2020 21:45:07 GMT 1, Ultimately it’s what you’re prepared to pay verses what you’re prepared to accept. Fees and percentages from auctions are irrelevant. The seller had no say in what they were paid but there’s the advantage of having attention on your sale. Personally I wouldnt sell at auction unless I wanted the piece of mind of the auction house dealing with the hand over/finances. If you’re a buyer of course try and get a good deal and only pay what you’re comfortable with. If you’re a seller it’s irrelevant what people tell you it’s worth. You have to sell for what feels right to you and if nobody buys it that tells you where you’re at.
Ultimately it’s what you’re prepared to pay verses what you’re prepared to accept. Fees and percentages from auctions are irrelevant. The seller had no say in what they were paid but there’s the advantage of having attention on your sale. Personally I wouldnt sell at auction unless I wanted the piece of mind of the auction house dealing with the hand over/finances. If you’re a buyer of course try and get a good deal and only pay what you’re comfortable with. If you’re a seller it’s irrelevant what people tell you it’s worth. You have to sell for what feels right to you and if nobody buys it that tells you where you’re at.
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funyoung
Junior Member
Posts • 1,040
Likes • 20
February 2008
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Auction vs Private sale value, by funyoung on Oct 28, 2020 9:07:47 GMT 1, There should be a certain surety by buying through an auction house - your money is safe, they've done due diligence that it's not a fake, you'll actually get a print etc - that you don't get when buying in a motorway services for cash.
The auction house is adding value therefore so I'd expect to pay more there than I would privately when buying (and can see the reduced value if I'm selling)
There should be a certain surety by buying through an auction house - your money is safe, they've done due diligence that it's not a fake, you'll actually get a print etc - that you don't get when buying in a motorway services for cash.
The auction house is adding value therefore so I'd expect to pay more there than I would privately when buying (and can see the reduced value if I'm selling)
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alibear
New Member
Posts • 140
Likes • 117
February 2013
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Auction vs Private sale value, by alibear on Oct 28, 2020 10:47:41 GMT 1, The bigger issue with all auction houses is that in the UK they all have to add 20% VAT to anything that is sold, significantly increasing the price.
A private sale between 2 people does not requite VAT to be paid (unless you are a private dealer with a registered business buying and selling art)
The bigger issue with all auction houses is that in the UK they all have to add 20% VAT to anything that is sold, significantly increasing the price.
A private sale between 2 people does not requite VAT to be paid (unless you are a private dealer with a registered business buying and selling art)
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Dive Jedi
Junior Member
Posts • 6,160
Likes • 9,393
October 2015
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Auction vs Private sale value, by Dive Jedi on Oct 28, 2020 11:00:00 GMT 1, The bigger issue with all auction houses is that in the UK they all have to add 20% VAT to anything that is sold, significantly increasing the price. A private sale between 2 people does not requite VAT to be paid (unless you are a private dealer with a registered business buying and selling art)
Hammer 1000
BP 25% = 250
VAT 20% = 50
Total for buyer : 1300
So the VAT only adds 5% to the total.
A private sale does not include BP or VAT, so there is a 30% difference there.
In general BP is considered part of the value of the piece (although opinions differ here)
so a private sale of the example above might be 1100 - 1200....
There could be 4% ARR to be paid to the artist as well,
but that is generally not determined as value to the piece.
The bigger issue with all auction houses is that in the UK they all have to add 20% VAT to anything that is sold, significantly increasing the price. A private sale between 2 people does not requite VAT to be paid (unless you are a private dealer with a registered business buying and selling art) They only have to add VAT to the Buyers Premium. Not to the price of the item itself. Hammer 1000 BP 25% = 250 VAT 20% = 50 Total for buyer : 1300 So the VAT only adds 5% to the total. A private sale does not include BP or VAT, so there is a 30% difference there. In general BP is considered part of the value of the piece (although opinions differ here) so a private sale of the example above might be 1100 - 1200.... There could be 4% ARR to be paid to the artist as well, but that is generally not determined as value to the piece. |
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RoboJ
Artist
Junior Member
Posts • 1,201
Likes • 1,329
Member is Online
July 2015
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Auction vs Private sale value, by RoboJ on Oct 28, 2020 11:23:19 GMT 1, The bigger issue with all auction houses is that in the UK they all have to add 20% VAT to anything that is sold, significantly increasing the price. A private sale between 2 people does not requite VAT to be paid (unless you are a private dealer with a registered business buying and selling art) They only have to add VAT to the Buyers Premium. Not to the price of the item itself. Hammer 1000 BP 25% = 250 VAT 20% = 50 Total for buyer : 1300 So the VAT only adds 5% to the total. A private sale does not include BP or VAT, so there is a 30% difference there. In general BP is considered part of the value of the piece (although opinions differ here) so a private sale of the example above might be 1100 - 1200.... There could be 4% ARR to be paid to the artist as well, but that is generally not determined as value to the piece.
The value is what ever the buyer agreed to pay. It’s irrelevant if they bought at an auction or privately. The thing to bare in mind if you’re a buyer looking for a deal is that an auction price is the highest value people in the room thought the item was on that given day. With this in mind buying privately you should be able to get a little cheaper based on not everyone at the auction felt the item was worth that much. The Caveat being if there’s an upward trend then the next time an auction comes around the people in the room will have raised their value of the item and so the prices will be higher. Hope this makes sense
The bigger issue with all auction houses is that in the UK they all have to add 20% VAT to anything that is sold, significantly increasing the price. A private sale between 2 people does not requite VAT to be paid (unless you are a private dealer with a registered business buying and selling art) They only have to add VAT to the Buyers Premium. Not to the price of the item itself. Hammer 1000 BP 25% = 250 VAT 20% = 50 Total for buyer : 1300 So the VAT only adds 5% to the total. A private sale does not include BP or VAT, so there is a 30% difference there. In general BP is considered part of the value of the piece (although opinions differ here) so a private sale of the example above might be 1100 - 1200.... There could be 4% ARR to be paid to the artist as well, but that is generally not determined as value to the piece. The value is what ever the buyer agreed to pay. It’s irrelevant if they bought at an auction or privately. The thing to bare in mind if you’re a buyer looking for a deal is that an auction price is the highest value people in the room thought the item was on that given day. With this in mind buying privately you should be able to get a little cheaper based on not everyone at the auction felt the item was worth that much. The Caveat being if there’s an upward trend then the next time an auction comes around the people in the room will have raised their value of the item and so the prices will be higher. Hope this makes sense |
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Dive Jedi
Junior Member
Posts • 6,160
Likes • 9,393
October 2015
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Auction vs Private sale value, by Dive Jedi on Oct 28, 2020 11:38:45 GMT 1, They only have to add VAT to the Buyers Premium. Not to the price of the item itself. Hammer 1000 BP 25% = 250 VAT 20% = 50 Total for buyer : 1300 So the VAT only adds 5% to the total. A private sale does not include BP or VAT, so there is a 30% difference there. In general BP is considered part of the value of the piece (although opinions differ here) so a private sale of the example above might be 1100 - 1200.... There could be 4% ARR to be paid to the artist as well, but that is generally not determined as value to the piece. The value is what ever the buyer agreed to pay. It’s irrelevant if they bought at an auction or privately. The thing to bare in mind if you’re a buyer looking for a deal is that an auction price is the highest value people in the room thought the item was on that given day. With this in mind buying privately you should be able to get a little cheaper based on not everyone at the auction felt the item was worth that much. The Caveat being if there’s an upward trend then the next time an auction comes around the people in the room will have raised their value of the item and so the prices will be higher. Hope this makes sense
My point is that the total price at auction is a good indication of an items value.
But have sold multiple items at (online) auction it can vary a lot.
I have sold exact same items for 120 that went for 500 the next week. Or vice versa......
They only have to add VAT to the Buyers Premium. Not to the price of the item itself. Hammer 1000 BP 25% = 250 VAT 20% = 50 Total for buyer : 1300 So the VAT only adds 5% to the total. A private sale does not include BP or VAT, so there is a 30% difference there. In general BP is considered part of the value of the piece (although opinions differ here) so a private sale of the example above might be 1100 - 1200.... There could be 4% ARR to be paid to the artist as well, but that is generally not determined as value to the piece. The value is what ever the buyer agreed to pay. It’s irrelevant if they bought at an auction or privately. The thing to bare in mind if you’re a buyer looking for a deal is that an auction price is the highest value people in the room thought the item was on that given day. With this in mind buying privately you should be able to get a little cheaper based on not everyone at the auction felt the item was worth that much. The Caveat being if there’s an upward trend then the next time an auction comes around the people in the room will have raised their value of the item and so the prices will be higher. Hope this makes sense You could also argue the conscensus was that the item wasn't worth more then the hammer + fees. My point is that the total price at auction is a good indication of an items value. But have sold multiple items at (online) auction it can vary a lot. I have sold exact same items for 120 that went for 500 the next week. Or vice versa...... |
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