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January 2013
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by bullet on Oct 26, 2010 20:04:08 GMT 1, Just throwing it out there, but does anyone else think that the culture of asking for a coa for a lesser known print is a bit radiculous. Regarding provenance - that is different as you can (sometimes) contact the original vendor to start a paper trail if needed.
I meant what exactly does an email with a number in it from somewhere like POW actually achieve? These can be easily made up (which we saw recently with the banksy investigation) and are pretty much worthless. It's almost as though people need to back up the reason to buy something that's a bit more expensive than usual by obtaining a placebo to justify it.
Many prints from the early days like dface dstq, sado, raiders etc do not come with any form of certificate, but people just expect it and it's slightly radiculous on older prints. Even Pow laughed at me once (pretty much) when I asked to verify a Hewlett kid. Its become an expected part of selling or buying a print but where do you draw the line as anyone can print out a piece of A4 with a nice looking logo on it.
Also who is going to fake less expensive prints - it has got a bit silly expecting a coa with everything don't you think? Banksy only started doing it, stamping it with his own stamp and quickly dumping unsigned prints to stop fakes and its led to this weird culture.
Just throwing it out there, but does anyone else think that the culture of asking for a coa for a lesser known print is a bit radiculous. Regarding provenance - that is different as you can (sometimes) contact the original vendor to start a paper trail if needed.
I meant what exactly does an email with a number in it from somewhere like POW actually achieve? These can be easily made up (which we saw recently with the banksy investigation) and are pretty much worthless. It's almost as though people need to back up the reason to buy something that's a bit more expensive than usual by obtaining a placebo to justify it.
Many prints from the early days like dface dstq, sado, raiders etc do not come with any form of certificate, but people just expect it and it's slightly radiculous on older prints. Even Pow laughed at me once (pretty much) when I asked to verify a Hewlett kid. Its become an expected part of selling or buying a print but where do you draw the line as anyone can print out a piece of A4 with a nice looking logo on it.
Also who is going to fake less expensive prints - it has got a bit silly expecting a coa with everything don't you think? Banksy only started doing it, stamping it with his own stamp and quickly dumping unsigned prints to stop fakes and its led to this weird culture.
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Deleted
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January 1970
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by Deleted on Oct 26, 2010 20:09:10 GMT 1, I'm with you on this one. It is ridiculous, and indicitive of people who think they're doing something important; which isn't the case at the lower end of the market.
I'm with you on this one. It is ridiculous, and indicitive of people who think they're doing something important; which isn't the case at the lower end of the market.
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afroken
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February 2009
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by afroken on Oct 26, 2010 20:18:04 GMT 1, This is a very good point. I think the same goes for originals. 90% of galleries do not issue COA's (pretty much 100% outside the urban art scene) and unless it's the artist's primary gallery they're not worth the paper they're written on anyway. Banksy is the only living artist with a formal authentication board but many people seem to think that his rules should apply to all artists. People need to get over it and do they're research if they want rock solid provenance. It's not difficult.
This is a very good point. I think the same goes for originals. 90% of galleries do not issue COA's (pretty much 100% outside the urban art scene) and unless it's the artist's primary gallery they're not worth the paper they're written on anyway. Banksy is the only living artist with a formal authentication board but many people seem to think that his rules should apply to all artists. People need to get over it and do they're research if they want rock solid provenance. It's not difficult.
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mmmike
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March 2010
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by mmmike on Oct 26, 2010 20:26:11 GMT 1, The thinking is if you buy something now and have full documentation then it is easier to authenticate twenty / fifty years from now, in the event that the print / original is worth a lot then. I can completely understand that thinking. Just because no one fakes something now does not mean they won't down the road.
The thinking is if you buy something now and have full documentation then it is easier to authenticate twenty / fifty years from now, in the event that the print / original is worth a lot then. I can completely understand that thinking. Just because no one fakes something now does not mean they won't down the road.
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bullet
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January 2013
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by bullet on Oct 26, 2010 20:29:45 GMT 1, Yeah but what if they were never issued?
Yeah but what if they were never issued?
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pezlow
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January 2007
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by pezlow on Oct 26, 2010 20:33:32 GMT 1, I totally agree with you freerange. Urban art collectors seem more interested in the coa than the print itself.
I totally agree with you freerange. Urban art collectors seem more interested in the coa than the print itself.
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redfred
Junior Member
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May 2006
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by redfred on Oct 26, 2010 21:03:50 GMT 1, I seem to recall somebody framing their POW coa and having it on the wall next to the print, now thats weird! I think paranoia is rife, not just with COA issues but with tiny little dings in prints or going to the end of the world for the finest framing materials to wrap round a ยฃ50 print, madness!
I seem to recall somebody framing their POW coa and having it on the wall next to the print, now thats weird! I think paranoia is rife, not just with COA issues but with tiny little dings in prints or going to the end of the world for the finest framing materials to wrap round a ยฃ50 print, madness!
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by Guest on Oct 26, 2010 21:15:55 GMT 1, For once I find myself agreeing with Jboy, whatever next? 
For once I find myself agreeing with Jboy, whatever next? |
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by wizzy on Oct 26, 2010 21:16:39 GMT 1, Thinking about it now i have only a few proofs of purchase for some paintings here, have never bothered that much to be honest, if i was buying a print say a Banksy then it would have to be legit. but doesnt bother me otherwise. Most of the older paintings just came with a receipt if anything at all.
Thinking about it now i have only a few proofs of purchase for some paintings here, have never bothered that much to be honest, if i was buying a print say a Banksy then it would have to be legit. but doesnt bother me otherwise. Most of the older paintings just came with a receipt if anything at all.
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lifeonwalls
Junior Member
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September 2007
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by lifeonwalls on Oct 26, 2010 21:19:46 GMT 1, I agree - whenever I have Obey pieces up where I'll ship internationally I always seem to get asked if I have a COA for it.
umm...no, but I can print out a copy of a paypal receipt for the $65 if that helps. Always seems to be international buyers who ask (not necessarily UK ;-)
I agree - whenever I have Obey pieces up where I'll ship internationally I always seem to get asked if I have a COA for it.
umm...no, but I can print out a copy of a paypal receipt for the $65 if that helps. Always seems to be international buyers who ask (not necessarily UK ;-)
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daveart
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February 2008
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by daveart on Oct 26, 2010 22:20:45 GMT 1, I am all for a nice paper trail .. but also find it odd that buyers feel that someone that could manage to nicely fake a large print couldn't also be bothered to fake a nice COA .. once someone decides to break the law its a tricky situation.
I am all for a nice paper trail .. but also find it odd that buyers feel that someone that could manage to nicely fake a large print couldn't also be bothered to fake a nice COA .. once someone decides to break the law its a tricky situation.
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MGK1
Junior Member
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May 2010
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by MGK1 on Oct 26, 2010 22:38:22 GMT 1, i quite like getting a COA, im not bothered if i don't get one but The COA i got with eelus "not everything is so black and white" actually made me laugh!
i quite like getting a COA, im not bothered if i don't get one but The COA i got with eelus "not everything is so black and white" actually made me laugh!
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twist65
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November 2008
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by twist65 on Oct 26, 2010 23:05:35 GMT 1, yeah I totally agree, it's a culture unintentially started by banksy and now everyone's at it, maybe smaller galleries/artists think that by issuing a COA it's kind of like saying "this print will be worth the same as a banksy in the future..."
If galleries/artists make an effort with the design of COAs then cool, it's a little cherry on top, but otherwise whats the point?
yeah I totally agree, it's a culture unintentially started by banksy and now everyone's at it, maybe smaller galleries/artists think that by issuing a COA it's kind of like saying "this print will be worth the same as a banksy in the future..."
If galleries/artists make an effort with the design of COAs then cool, it's a little cherry on top, but otherwise whats the point?
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by notworthit on Oct 26, 2010 23:24:39 GMT 1, For once I find myself agreeing with Jboy, whatever next?
Careful Spenie, you'll be part of the collective next!
For once I find myself agreeing with Jboy, whatever next? Careful Spenie, you'll be part of the collective next! |
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by Guest on Oct 26, 2010 23:27:56 GMT 1, For once I find myself agreeing with Jboy, whatever next? Careful Spenie, you'll be part of the collective next!
Maybe I already am!
For once I find myself agreeing with Jboy, whatever next? Careful Spenie, you'll be part of the collective next! Maybe I already am! |
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by manty on Oct 26, 2010 23:33:01 GMT 1, All the guys on ebay selling floyd/Hendrix guitars, autographs etc.
They all come with COAs, are they not all genuine then?
All the guys on ebay selling floyd/Hendrix guitars, autographs etc.
They all come with COAs, are they not all genuine then?
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mmmike
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March 2010
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by mmmike on Oct 26, 2010 23:35:38 GMT 1, Yeah but what if they were never issued?
For me I like getting what ever paper is out there. If it doesn't exist it wouldn't stop me from buying, but if it does and the seller doesn't have it, I'd think twice even if I know 100% it is real, because down the road if I need to sell, I want to have that paper.
I really want to buy an Andy Warhol Race Riot print. Problem is it is unnumbered and unsigned. I think it would be easy to fake. I want to make sure i get a real one. If a stranger tells me it was bought from source but has nothing to prove it, I don't know if that is true. But if the person has a paper trail from source it shows that at a minimum it is a very good fake
So when I'm looking for current stuff I figure might as well get the documentation in order. Why not? It doesn't cost me anything.
Yeah but what if they were never issued? For me I like getting what ever paper is out there. If it doesn't exist it wouldn't stop me from buying, but if it does and the seller doesn't have it, I'd think twice even if I know 100% it is real, because down the road if I need to sell, I want to have that paper. I really want to buy an Andy Warhol Race Riot print. Problem is it is unnumbered and unsigned. I think it would be easy to fake. I want to make sure i get a real one. If a stranger tells me it was bought from source but has nothing to prove it, I don't know if that is true. But if the person has a paper trail from source it shows that at a minimum it is a very good fake So when I'm looking for current stuff I figure might as well get the documentation in order. Why not? It doesn't cost me anything. |
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mmmike
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March 2010
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by mmmike on Oct 26, 2010 23:39:24 GMT 1, I should also say that where the paper work comes from is more important than the paper itself. I would never buy something relying only on a cert. If the seller is shady there is very little a cert can do to change that.
If it looks to good to be true...
I should also say that where the paper work comes from is more important than the paper itself. I would never buy something relying only on a cert. If the seller is shady there is very little a cert can do to change that.
If it looks to good to be true...
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by joeschmo on Oct 27, 2010 7:58:34 GMT 1, COAs are a bit of a joke really, people put far too much trust in them, when they can be forged and printed off within a blink of an eye.
COAs are a bit of a joke really, people put far too much trust in them, when they can be forged and printed off within a blink of an eye.
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darhart
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February 2008
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by darhart on Oct 27, 2010 8:36:21 GMT 1, I think it's important to make the distinction between COA (not worth a great deal) and being able to provide provenance (very important in my opinion).
I think alot of people who ask for a COA are realy after provenance, they're just asking for the wrong thing.
I think it's important to make the distinction between COA (not worth a great deal) and being able to provide provenance (very important in my opinion).
I think alot of people who ask for a COA are realy after provenance, they're just asking for the wrong thing.
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Harveyn
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July 2007
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by Harveyn on Oct 27, 2010 9:01:59 GMT 1, I think it's important to make the distinction between COA (not worth a great deal) and being able to provide provenance (very important in my opinion). I think alot of people who ask for a COA are realy after provenance, they're just asking for the wrong thing.
Good debate. Certainly on more expensive pieces of art I think provenance is critical. The point about a COA not being provenance is true especially when issued by a secondary market gallery. That said a COA can act as provenance or at least part of. I recently received two COAs from two different galleries, both primary sources. They supplied a COA with an image of the artwork signed by the gallery and artist (Barry McGee & Chris Johanson). It was a nice and appreciated touch.
I think it's important to make the distinction between COA (not worth a great deal) and being able to provide provenance (very important in my opinion). I think alot of people who ask for a COA are realy after provenance, they're just asking for the wrong thing. Good debate. Certainly on more expensive pieces of art I think provenance is critical. The point about a COA not being provenance is true especially when issued by a secondary market gallery. That said a COA can act as provenance or at least part of. I recently received two COAs from two different galleries, both primary sources. They supplied a COA with an image of the artwork signed by the gallery and artist (Barry McGee & Chris Johanson). It was a nice and appreciated touch. |
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darhart
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February 2008
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by darhart on Oct 27, 2010 9:06:32 GMT 1, I think it's important to make the distinction between COA (not worth a great deal) and being able to provide provenance (very important in my opinion). I think alot of people who ask for a COA are realy after provenance, they're just asking for the wrong thing. Good debate. Certainly on more expensive pieces of art I think provenance is critical. The point about a COA not being provenance is true especially when issued by a secondary market gallery. That said a COA can act as provenance or at least part of. I recently received two COAs from two different galleries, both primary sources. They supplied a COA with an image of the artwork signed by the gallery and artist (Barry McGee & Chris Johanson). It was a nice and appreciated touch.
Yes totaly agree, in that case the COA they provided as the primary source forms part of the provenance.
I think it's important to make the distinction between COA (not worth a great deal) and being able to provide provenance (very important in my opinion). I think alot of people who ask for a COA are realy after provenance, they're just asking for the wrong thing. Good debate. Certainly on more expensive pieces of art I think provenance is critical. The point about a COA not being provenance is true especially when issued by a secondary market gallery. That said a COA can act as provenance or at least part of. I recently received two COAs from two different galleries, both primary sources. They supplied a COA with an image of the artwork signed by the gallery and artist (Barry McGee & Chris Johanson). It was a nice and appreciated touch. Yes totaly agree, in that case the COA they provided as the primary source forms part of the provenance. |
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by wizzy on Oct 27, 2010 9:17:14 GMT 1, Been through receipt boxes here and for sure most of the older paintings i have acquired have come with only a Gallery receipt and maybe in the odd case a little bit of the history of previous owners which is fine by me. The more recent works (from this particular sector) come with a mixture of both depending if i bought from Gallery or Artist, one came with some Balloons and another with a stick of Rock.
Been through receipt boxes here and for sure most of the older paintings i have acquired have come with only a Gallery receipt and maybe in the odd case a little bit of the history of previous owners which is fine by me. The more recent works (from this particular sector) come with a mixture of both depending if i bought from Gallery or Artist, one came with some Balloons and another with a stick of Rock.
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pezlow
Junior Member
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January 2007
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by pezlow on Oct 27, 2010 9:30:50 GMT 1, I think it's important to make the distinction between COA (not worth a great deal) and being able to provide provenance (very important in my opinion). I think alot of people who ask for a COA are realy after provenance, they're just asking for the wrong thing.
Provenance though is just a term for where something came from. That it has come to mean receipts is again a product of this market.
A classic example is faile prints. None of the early ones have coa's and the only proof of purchase that anyone can properly provide is a paypal receipt. I really don't think that means much.
What is far more important is that the print looks genuine (and with faile prints you can tell), that it has the right signature, the right stamps on the back ( date and edition numbers) and the right blind stamp. If I got all this information from a seller together with a convincing history of where it was bought from and by who it wouldn't bother me at all if the seller couldn't produce an easily faked computerised receipt.
I think it's important to make the distinction between COA (not worth a great deal) and being able to provide provenance (very important in my opinion). I think alot of people who ask for a COA are realy after provenance, they're just asking for the wrong thing. Provenance though is just a term for where something came from. That it has come to mean receipts is again a product of this market. A classic example is faile prints. None of the early ones have coa's and the only proof of purchase that anyone can properly provide is a paypal receipt. I really don't think that means much. What is far more important is that the print looks genuine (and with faile prints you can tell), that it has the right signature, the right stamps on the back ( date and edition numbers) and the right blind stamp. If I got all this information from a seller together with a convincing history of where it was bought from and by who it wouldn't bother me at all if the seller couldn't produce an easily faked computerised receipt. |
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by wizzy on Oct 27, 2010 9:36:19 GMT 1, I blame ridiculous Television programmes like Antiques Roadshow or Shite in the Attic for bandying around the term "Provenance" like its going out of fashion, anyone with half an ounce of common sense should do the routine checks re secondary market anyhow as i am v sure that many an items provenence itself has been faked!. What ever happened to the good old days where a chaps handshake was his word and that meant all?.
I blame ridiculous Television programmes like Antiques Roadshow or Shite in the Attic for bandying around the term "Provenance" like its going out of fashion, anyone with half an ounce of common sense should do the routine checks re secondary market anyhow as i am v sure that many an items provenence itself has been faked!. What ever happened to the good old days where a chaps handshake was his word and that meant all?.
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waveydavey
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July 2007
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by waveydavey on Oct 27, 2010 10:12:10 GMT 1, I blame ridiculous Television programmes like Antiques Roadshow or s**te in the Attic for bandying around the term "Provenance" like its going out of fashion, anyone with half an ounce of common sense should do the routine checks re secondary market anyhow as i am v sure that many an items provenence itself has been faked!. What ever happened to the good old days where a chaps handshake was his word and that meant all?.
Maybe it would be worth while copying some banksy screen prints but to be honest the costs involved of copying other artists would not be worth the profit. Why bother about a COA for a fifty to a hundred pound print? Who cares?
I blame ridiculous Television programmes like Antiques Roadshow or s**te in the Attic for bandying around the term "Provenance" like its going out of fashion, anyone with half an ounce of common sense should do the routine checks re secondary market anyhow as i am v sure that many an items provenence itself has been faked!. What ever happened to the good old days where a chaps handshake was his word and that meant all?. Maybe it would be worth while copying some banksy screen prints but to be honest the costs involved of copying other artists would not be worth the profit. Why bother about a COA for a fifty to a hundred pound print? Who cares? |
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Guy Denning
Artist
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July 2007
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by Guy Denning on Oct 27, 2010 10:22:53 GMT 1, I could never understand when a buyer would want a signed COA to go with an original painting or drawing. They've got THE ORIGINAL!! Surely that's intrinsically less forgeable than a piece of paper with a gallery or artist logo on it!
I raised the issue with someone once though, who was bending my ear endlessly for a COA that I kept forgetting to post (that's how important I think they are!) and they said that it was for their insurance company to have a paper record of what they were expected to insure. Sounded reasonable enough at that point - whether it's a standard that insurance companies now ask for or not I don't know.
I could never understand when a buyer would want a signed COA to go with an original painting or drawing. They've got THE ORIGINAL!! Surely that's intrinsically less forgeable than a piece of paper with a gallery or artist logo on it!
I raised the issue with someone once though, who was bending my ear endlessly for a COA that I kept forgetting to post (that's how important I think they are!) and they said that it was for their insurance company to have a paper record of what they were expected to insure. Sounded reasonable enough at that point - whether it's a standard that insurance companies now ask for or not I don't know.
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Guy Denning
Artist
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July 2007
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by Guy Denning on Oct 27, 2010 10:25:29 GMT 1, What ever happened to the good old days where a chaps handshake was his word and that meant all?.
Indeed old bean...
Pass the port.
What ever happened to the good old days where a chaps handshake was his word and that meant all?. Indeed old bean... Pass the port. |
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by wizzy on Oct 27, 2010 10:34:10 GMT 1, Ha!, its right though innit Guy? what the hell happened to those days?.My insurance company always want the proof to be honest and i suppose that means the dreaded COA along with the usual six photographs!.
Ha!, its right though innit Guy? what the hell happened to those days?.My insurance company always want the proof to be honest and i suppose that means the dreaded COA along with the usual six photographs!.
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curiousgeorge
Junior Member
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March 2007
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THE COA AND PROVENANCE CULTURE, by curiousgeorge on Oct 27, 2010 11:47:49 GMT 1, Those days went by the wayside when sunday trading began
Those days went by the wayside when sunday trading began |
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