skylarkin
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June 2006
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The role of urban art, by skylarkin on Dec 3, 2008 23:55:16 GMT 1, From an artists point of view the conclusion although expected is a little disappointing. It depends on what you think the conclusion is..I think it's reasonable to assume that people on this forum support the pushing of boundries on the street where things evolve and change,but to live with a strong,perhaps ugly/horrific image,however stong and meritous is asking a lot.It doesn't mean that it's not appreciated as much.I think this is the point motor makes regarding the Micallef.James also has valid points although I think the backlash he expected doesn't come from members who read threads on the merit of art. I agree gurn. I dont think that street art as a natural form has any boundaries, and that subversion on the street works fantasically as a thought provoking medium, reguardless of subject. The image of somebody after being subjected to cs gas may well work as a drive/walk by image to make the viewer stop and think about what you are expressing, but to have to look at it in your own lounge is a big ask. But thats not to say that you cant express the same feeling in an image that is more excepted. I guess the question is are you willing to tone down your art to appeal to the masses..?
From an artists point of view the conclusion although expected is a little disappointing. It depends on what you think the conclusion is..I think it's reasonable to assume that people on this forum support the pushing of boundries on the street where things evolve and change,but to live with a strong,perhaps ugly/horrific image,however stong and meritous is asking a lot.It doesn't mean that it's not appreciated as much.I think this is the point motor makes regarding the Micallef.James also has valid points although I think the backlash he expected doesn't come from members who read threads on the merit of art. I agree gurn. I dont think that street art as a natural form has any boundaries, and that subversion on the street works fantasically as a thought provoking medium, reguardless of subject. The image of somebody after being subjected to cs gas may well work as a drive/walk by image to make the viewer stop and think about what you are expressing, but to have to look at it in your own lounge is a big ask. But thats not to say that you cant express the same feeling in an image that is more excepted. I guess the question is are you willing to tone down your art to appeal to the masses..?
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Mike Marcus
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August 2008
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The role of urban art, by Mike Marcus on Dec 4, 2008 0:08:34 GMT 1, no
no
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skylarkin
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June 2006
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The role of urban art, by skylarkin on Dec 4, 2008 0:10:36 GMT 1,
excellent...look forward to the results... (good thread by the way...)
excellent...look forward to the results... (good thread by the way...)
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matbat
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December 2006
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The role of urban art, by matbat on Dec 4, 2008 0:14:37 GMT 1, Yet the question remains. Do the people who consume (whether materially or conceptually) urban art want stuff that really pushes the boundaries. Or do they just want nice safe, mildly leftist, pretty pictures which are easy to categorise and define? I absolutely love this piece by Micallef. However would I love it hanging in my house so my kids can look at it day after day?
probably not the one ive seen was about 15 ft x 15 ft
Yet the question remains. Do the people who consume (whether materially or conceptually) urban art want stuff that really pushes the boundaries. Or do they just want nice safe, mildly leftist, pretty pictures which are easy to categorise and define? I absolutely love this piece by Micallef. However would I love it hanging in my house so my kids can look at it day after day? probably not the one ive seen was about 15 ft x 15 ft
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jamesreeve5
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September 2012
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The role of urban art, by jamesreeve5 on Dec 4, 2008 0:44:44 GMT 1, But thats not to say that you cant express the same feeling in an image that is more excepted. I guess the question is are you willing to tone down your art to appeal to the masses..?
I think you mean accepted?
I don't think you can express the same feeling with a different image. The abrasive nature of the work causes it to elicit certain feelings, that a toned down image could not sincerely reproduce. True art should not need to be toned down for the viewers sake... unless you are the Catholic Church lopping off the marble penises of Roman statues during the Middle Ages.
But thats not to say that you cant express the same feeling in an image that is more excepted. I guess the question is are you willing to tone down your art to appeal to the masses..? I think you mean accepted? I don't think you can express the same feeling with a different image. The abrasive nature of the work causes it to elicit certain feelings, that a toned down image could not sincerely reproduce. True art should not need to be toned down for the viewers sake... unless you are the Catholic Church lopping off the marble penises of Roman statues during the Middle Ages.
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Mike Marcus
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The role of urban art, by Mike Marcus on Dec 4, 2008 0:56:25 GMT 1, Come on... surely you can say p***s on this forum? Talking of which. How do people feel about Paul le Chien's work?
www.flickr.com/photos/paullechien/3079016740/
[edit]well well! apparently you cant.
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sfdoddsy
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August 2008
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The role of urban art, by sfdoddsy on Dec 4, 2008 0:56:56 GMT 1, I don't think 'pushing the boundaries' means images of skeletons, severed limbs and crushed babies. In fact, for me it is just the opposite. Those images are the cliche and often less is more.
I don't think art necessarily has to 'say' anything, and it certainly doesn't have to scream it.
I'm a big fan of Lucio Fontana, and to me his stuff says a lot more with a few canvas slashes than a boatload full of skulls.
I don't think 'pushing the boundaries' means images of skeletons, severed limbs and crushed babies. In fact, for me it is just the opposite. Those images are the cliche and often less is more. I don't think art necessarily has to 'say' anything, and it certainly doesn't have to scream it. I'm a big fan of Lucio Fontana, and to me his stuff says a lot more with a few canvas slashes than a boatload full of skulls.
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Mike Marcus
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The role of urban art, by Mike Marcus on Dec 4, 2008 0:59:32 GMT 1, I think that pushing the boundaries means different things to different artists. To me it means gassing myself to protest against the occupation of palestine, to others it might mean slashing canvases. I'm not planning on softening my voice and nor should have Mr Fontana
I think that pushing the boundaries means different things to different artists. To me it means gassing myself to protest against the occupation of palestine, to others it might mean slashing canvases. I'm not planning on softening my voice and nor should have Mr Fontana
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jamesreeve5
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September 2012
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The role of urban art, by jamesreeve5 on Dec 4, 2008 1:36:02 GMT 1, I don't think 'pushing the boundaries' means images of skeletons, severed limbs and crushed babies. In fact, for me it is just the opposite. Those images are the cliche and often less is more. I don't think art necessarily has to 'say' anything, and it certainly doesn't have to scream it. I'm a big fan of Lucio Fontana, and to me his stuff says a lot more with a few canvas slashes than a boatload full of skulls.
I feel the same way... I own a few explicit art pieces by artists like Dash Snow, Nobuyoshi Araki, and Leigh LeDare, but my most disturbing and thought provoking piece has to be a concrete cube by the artist Teresa Margolles... looks a bit like one of these...
It was made with water that was used to wash off the anonymous corpse of a victim of violent crime in Mexico City. Truly morbid, but my kids (if I had them) would be none the wiser about it.
I don't think 'pushing the boundaries' means images of skeletons, severed limbs and crushed babies. In fact, for me it is just the opposite. Those images are the cliche and often less is more. I don't think art necessarily has to 'say' anything, and it certainly doesn't have to scream it. I'm a big fan of Lucio Fontana, and to me his stuff says a lot more with a few canvas slashes than a boatload full of skulls. I feel the same way... I own a few explicit art pieces by artists like Dash Snow, Nobuyoshi Araki, and Leigh LeDare, but my most disturbing and thought provoking piece has to be a concrete cube by the artist Teresa Margolles... looks a bit like one of these... It was made with water that was used to wash off the anonymous corpse of a victim of violent crime in Mexico City. Truly morbid, but my kids (if I had them) would be none the wiser about it.
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meatbag
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April 2007
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The role of urban art, by meatbag on Dec 4, 2008 1:56:07 GMT 1, 1) The established art world is notorious for promoting 'safe' art.
I agree with some of your points but I would have to say in general it's been quite the opposite over the last 20 years. Hirst, Emin, Koon, The Chapmans, Murakami, Koh, Warhol... and the list goes on. Certainly not safe fella.
1) The established art world is notorious for promoting 'safe' art. I agree with some of your points but I would have to say in general it's been quite the opposite over the last 20 years. Hirst, Emin, Koon, The Chapmans, Murakami, Koh, Warhol... and the list goes on. Certainly not safe fella.
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sfdoddsy
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The role of urban art, by sfdoddsy on Dec 4, 2008 2:07:19 GMT 1, Whilst gassing yourself may be a good protest option, the question is whether it is good art. It certainly doesn't leave much room for interpretation, whereas to me interesting art, even the most polemic, does.
The Fontana piece can be interpreted in all sorts of ways - is it about censorship, is it about imprisonment, is it a portrait of seven women, is it about romance?
In fact, according to Fontana it is about none of these things. The work is simply entitled Space Concept. But that ambiguity is what makes it powerful.
And ambiguity and subtlety are sorely missing from most urban art.
Whilst gassing yourself may be a good protest option, the question is whether it is good art. It certainly doesn't leave much room for interpretation, whereas to me interesting art, even the most polemic, does.
The Fontana piece can be interpreted in all sorts of ways - is it about censorship, is it about imprisonment, is it a portrait of seven women, is it about romance?
In fact, according to Fontana it is about none of these things. The work is simply entitled Space Concept. But that ambiguity is what makes it powerful.
And ambiguity and subtlety are sorely missing from most urban art.
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jamesreeve5
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September 2012
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The role of urban art, by jamesreeve5 on Dec 5, 2008 2:50:30 GMT 1, goodbye brief but engrossing and illuminating thread...
goodbye brief but engrossing and illuminating thread...
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Heavyconsumer
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February 2008
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The role of urban art, by Heavyconsumer on Dec 5, 2008 3:30:40 GMT 1, I'm going to quote something that Guy Denning wrote in a thread on his forum a few months ago, because I think it's something you'll appreciate Mike (I hope that's ok with him if he's reading). He said, "it's nice to have collectors that really want to know more about the work. It's not just 'butterfly collecting' then is it?!" I would guess that's a sentiment you can relate to...?
However I think it's worth pointing out that while Guy's work is generally, incredibly dark and haunting in nature, it is so in a slightly more subtle, yet just as immediately effective way, as it is very easy on the eye with its' deep, sombre colours and rich texturing, which acts in drawing the viewer in and holding their gaze, while they consider and are affected by the art. I feel that this is the reason I'd love to have one of his paintings on my wall, whereas I would struggle to live with your latest print, even though it's interesting and powerful - something I'd love to see in an Israeli street, but not at home in my living room. This discussion is about art and ultimately, most of us that spend our money on art (or consume it, if you prefer), do so wanting to enjoy looking at it, not wanting to have to force ourselves to.
I'm going to quote something that Guy Denning wrote in a thread on his forum a few months ago, because I think it's something you'll appreciate Mike (I hope that's ok with him if he's reading). He said, "it's nice to have collectors that really want to know more about the work. It's not just 'butterfly collecting' then is it?!" I would guess that's a sentiment you can relate to...?
However I think it's worth pointing out that while Guy's work is generally, incredibly dark and haunting in nature, it is so in a slightly more subtle, yet just as immediately effective way, as it is very easy on the eye with its' deep, sombre colours and rich texturing, which acts in drawing the viewer in and holding their gaze, while they consider and are affected by the art. I feel that this is the reason I'd love to have one of his paintings on my wall, whereas I would struggle to live with your latest print, even though it's interesting and powerful - something I'd love to see in an Israeli street, but not at home in my living room. This discussion is about art and ultimately, most of us that spend our money on art (or consume it, if you prefer), do so wanting to enjoy looking at it, not wanting to have to force ourselves to.
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Mike Marcus
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The role of urban art, by Mike Marcus on Dec 5, 2008 14:55:00 GMT 1, I have also found this thread incredibly illuminating. I would like to thank all involved. It has helped me plan my future "marketing strategy" (for want of a better phrase) in a place which I am still pretty new (up until a year ago the Tel Aviv fine art market was where I was at).
I wrote a blog entry as a result of what I have learnt. I'm sorry to those who read it if it comes across as overly negative. I think that this issue of street art becoming urban art is something that I'm going to be thinking about for a long time to come and I'm sure that it will influence my coming work in a positive way. Looking back it has already inspired my "dont remove me, I'm a Banksy" and red dot stencils and I have another relevant street intervention in the pipeline.
I have also found this thread incredibly illuminating. I would like to thank all involved. It has helped me plan my future "marketing strategy" (for want of a better phrase) in a place which I am still pretty new (up until a year ago the Tel Aviv fine art market was where I was at).
I wrote a blog entry as a result of what I have learnt. I'm sorry to those who read it if it comes across as overly negative. I think that this issue of street art becoming urban art is something that I'm going to be thinking about for a long time to come and I'm sure that it will influence my coming work in a positive way. Looking back it has already inspired my "dont remove me, I'm a Banksy" and red dot stencils and I have another relevant street intervention in the pipeline.
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The role of urban art, by onemandown72 on Dec 5, 2008 15:26:05 GMT 1, One thing about all of this, and something that infuriates me is putting styles into boxes, and give them names. Street, urban, etc. To me this is all about art, and not about which area a style sits in. I think that once you can see past a label/genre and recognise value in what an artist produces in these terms that empowers the art and allows it to stand up on it's own merits. Personally I couldn't give a f*ck as to what I like fits into, as this is furthest from my mind when I view work. Mike please don't fall into the trap of wanting to become a "Street / Urban" artist, and carry on the path of being an artist. This is all that is important!
One thing about all of this, and something that infuriates me is putting styles into boxes, and give them names. Street, urban, etc. To me this is all about art, and not about which area a style sits in. I think that once you can see past a label/genre and recognise value in what an artist produces in these terms that empowers the art and allows it to stand up on it's own merits. Personally I couldn't give a f*ck as to what I like fits into, as this is furthest from my mind when I view work. Mike please don't fall into the trap of wanting to become a "Street / Urban" artist, and carry on the path of being an artist. This is all that is important!
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Mike Marcus
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The role of urban art, by Mike Marcus on Dec 5, 2008 15:38:01 GMT 1, Onemandown: what you say is true of course. However there is always commerce to think about. Artists sometimes ask themselves valid questions such as "who is my market" and "who should I sell this to". I know that consumers of art don't like to think of artists as salespeople, for some reason we are expected to be above the material concerns which affect others but unfortunately its a fact of life: I need to buy art materials and afford basic living standards otherwise I'm not producing anything for anyone.
Onemandown: what you say is true of course. However there is always commerce to think about. Artists sometimes ask themselves valid questions such as "who is my market" and "who should I sell this to". I know that consumers of art don't like to think of artists as salespeople, for some reason we are expected to be above the material concerns which affect others but unfortunately its a fact of life: I need to buy art materials and afford basic living standards otherwise I'm not producing anything for anyone.
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motor
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December 2006
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The role of urban art, by motor on Dec 5, 2008 15:42:04 GMT 1, One thing about all of this, and something that infuriates me is putting styles into boxes, and give them names. Street, urban, etc. To me this is all about art, and not about which area a style sits in. I think that once you can see past a label/genre and recognise value in what an artist produces in these terms that empowers the art and allows it to stand up on it's own merits. Personally I couldn't give a f*ck as to what I like fits into, as this is furthest from my mind when I view work. Mike please don't fall into the trap of wanting to become a "Street / Urban" artist, and carry on the path of being an artist. This is all that is important!
That's a good post Onemandown72
One thing about all of this, and something that infuriates me is putting styles into boxes, and give them names. Street, urban, etc. To me this is all about art, and not about which area a style sits in. I think that once you can see past a label/genre and recognise value in what an artist produces in these terms that empowers the art and allows it to stand up on it's own merits. Personally I couldn't give a f*ck as to what I like fits into, as this is furthest from my mind when I view work. Mike please don't fall into the trap of wanting to become a "Street / Urban" artist, and carry on the path of being an artist. This is all that is important! That's a good post Onemandown72
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The role of urban art, by onemandown72 on Dec 5, 2008 15:45:11 GMT 1, Onemandown: what you say is true of course. However there is always commerce to think about. Artists sometimes ask themselves valid questions such as "who is my market" and "who should I sell this to". I know that consumers of art don't like to think of artists as salespeople, for some reason we are expected to be above the material concerns which affect others but unfortunately its a fact of life: I need to buy art materials and afford basic living standards otherwise I'm not producing anything for anyone.
Wihlst everybody needs to eat, if believe in your art, and are true to yourself this will be the best route to take. I always shudder at the idea of making art more commercial, but also accept that this is sometimes a necessary evil. For me the compromise is producing work that is a diluted version of your vision to sell, and pay the bills to allow you to create what you absolutely feel is right.
Onemandown: what you say is true of course. However there is always commerce to think about. Artists sometimes ask themselves valid questions such as "who is my market" and "who should I sell this to". I know that consumers of art don't like to think of artists as salespeople, for some reason we are expected to be above the material concerns which affect others but unfortunately its a fact of life: I need to buy art materials and afford basic living standards otherwise I'm not producing anything for anyone. Wihlst everybody needs to eat, if believe in your art, and are true to yourself this will be the best route to take. I always shudder at the idea of making art more commercial, but also accept that this is sometimes a necessary evil. For me the compromise is producing work that is a diluted version of your vision to sell, and pay the bills to allow you to create what you absolutely feel is right.
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The role of urban art, by manty on Dec 5, 2008 15:45:39 GMT 1, he talks sense that onemandown
he talks sense that onemandown
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Mike Marcus
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August 2008
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The role of urban art, by Mike Marcus on Dec 5, 2008 16:30:15 GMT 1, He does indeed!
I guess for me one of the main purposes of this thread has been to try and work out how to make money from my art in London (which is increasingly street based) without needing to dilute its content. Its a tricky thing to achieve but this conversation has really helped me understand how I might do that effectively.
I really believe that my creative practice is an outward expression of my own internal domain and as such I have complete control over it. Therefore anything is possible to achieve if only I can work out how.
He does indeed!
I guess for me one of the main purposes of this thread has been to try and work out how to make money from my art in London (which is increasingly street based) without needing to dilute its content. Its a tricky thing to achieve but this conversation has really helped me understand how I might do that effectively.
I really believe that my creative practice is an outward expression of my own internal domain and as such I have complete control over it. Therefore anything is possible to achieve if only I can work out how.
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Chris Keegan
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June 2008
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The role of urban art, by Chris Keegan on Dec 17, 2008 21:21:07 GMT 1, I think that this what we call "urban" art is born out of mainstream modern art galleries not showing a very diverse spectrum of new art any more. Its true in London anyway. Galleries like the Saatchi and Tate i mind eye dont represent the many types of modern art/creativity being done in the last few years. Not that it is there prerogative to do so after all the Saatchi gallery is essentially one persons taste in art. Its good any way because you all these other artists thinking "i dont wonna have my work in that old Tate im gonna show it off in a different way"
Its very flavour of the month at the mo and thus lots of people are jumping on top of it. Which makes it very interesting to speculate who will keep there creative heads above water for the long length.
I think that this what we call "urban" art is born out of mainstream modern art galleries not showing a very diverse spectrum of new art any more. Its true in London anyway. Galleries like the Saatchi and Tate i mind eye dont represent the many types of modern art/creativity being done in the last few years. Not that it is there prerogative to do so after all the Saatchi gallery is essentially one persons taste in art. Its good any way because you all these other artists thinking "i dont wonna have my work in that old Tate im gonna show it off in a different way"
Its very flavour of the month at the mo and thus lots of people are jumping on top of it. Which makes it very interesting to speculate who will keep there creative heads above water for the long length.
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The role of urban art, by slowmo on Dec 17, 2008 21:53:46 GMT 1, I think that this what we call "urban" art is born out of mainstream modern art galleries not showing a very diverse spectrum of new art any more. Its true in London anyway. Galleries like the Saatchi and Tate i mind eye dont represent the many types of modern art/creativity being done in the last few years. Not that it is there prerogative to do so after all the Saatchi gallery is essentially one persons taste in art. Its good any way because you all these other artists thinking "i dont wonna have my work in that old Tate im gonna show it off in a different way" Its very flavour of the month at the mo and thus lots of people are jumping on top of it. Which makes it very interesting to speculate who will keep there creative heads above water for the long length.
Those who truly love it, and do not see it as a means of marketing will remain and will bring smiles, joy and intrigue to anonymous passers as well as making them think, wonder and aspire without thinking about them as some sort of crutch to support further activity in the form of financial reward.
Or just draw a cock with some spunk spurting out while drunk, equally valid in the morning to my eye
I think that this what we call "urban" art is born out of mainstream modern art galleries not showing a very diverse spectrum of new art any more. Its true in London anyway. Galleries like the Saatchi and Tate i mind eye dont represent the many types of modern art/creativity being done in the last few years. Not that it is there prerogative to do so after all the Saatchi gallery is essentially one persons taste in art. Its good any way because you all these other artists thinking "i dont wonna have my work in that old Tate im gonna show it off in a different way" Its very flavour of the month at the mo and thus lots of people are jumping on top of it. Which makes it very interesting to speculate who will keep there creative heads above water for the long length. Those who truly love it, and do not see it as a means of marketing will remain and will bring smiles, joy and intrigue to anonymous passers as well as making them think, wonder and aspire without thinking about them as some sort of crutch to support further activity in the form of financial reward. Or just draw a cock with some spunk spurting out while drunk, equally valid in the morning to my eye
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Guy Denning
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July 2007
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The role of urban art, by Guy Denning on Dec 17, 2008 22:22:38 GMT 1, The role of urban art (regardless of definition) should be the same as the role of art historically. In my opinion artists have a responsibility to engage initially with the general public before producing work aimed at the attentions of the art critical establishment. I'd say that artwork produced for the insular world of art academe will rarely stand the test of time despite perhaps achieving initial high praise. When the artist has gone and the fashions have changed all that will be left is the work. The only constant will be an audience that has a minimum of actual lived reference to the times the work was created in. Work made for a public audience is honest work and honest work is the best the artist can hope to be remembered for. I'd say urban/street/graf art is very specifically aimed at being inclusive in its audience and all the better for it. Don't try and over-analyse!
The role of urban art (regardless of definition) should be the same as the role of art historically. In my opinion artists have a responsibility to engage initially with the general public before producing work aimed at the attentions of the art critical establishment. I'd say that artwork produced for the insular world of art academe will rarely stand the test of time despite perhaps achieving initial high praise. When the artist has gone and the fashions have changed all that will be left is the work. The only constant will be an audience that has a minimum of actual lived reference to the times the work was created in. Work made for a public audience is honest work and honest work is the best the artist can hope to be remembered for. I'd say urban/street/graf art is very specifically aimed at being inclusive in its audience and all the better for it. Don't try and over-analyse!
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