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is graffiti art ?, by graeme501 on Nov 28, 2007 23:33:32 GMT 1, im doing a kind of disertation/report for 2nd year graphic design and im doing it on the broken window theory and when graffiti becomes art, it would b amazing if i could get every1's views on this subject and would really help alot
so im looking for views on anything related to this subject, the difference between tagging and stencils, when is graffiti art and when is it vandilsm, how would u feel if there was a big surge of graffiti where u live, and anything else u can think of, would be nice to get some interesting discussions going
cheers
g
im doing a kind of disertation/report for 2nd year graphic design and im doing it on the broken window theory and when graffiti becomes art, it would b amazing if i could get every1's views on this subject and would really help alot
so im looking for views on anything related to this subject, the difference between tagging and stencils, when is graffiti art and when is it vandilsm, how would u feel if there was a big surge of graffiti where u live, and anything else u can think of, would be nice to get some interesting discussions going
cheers
g
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stuey09
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August 2008
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is graffiti art ?, by stuey09 on Nov 28, 2007 23:40:05 GMT 1, Graeme I've got something for you that I did for a magazine this month. Can't pm it until Friday, but you're welcome to it. It also includes a counter argument from Keep Britain Tidy. Might be useful.
Graeme I've got something for you that I did for a magazine this month. Can't pm it until Friday, but you're welcome to it. It also includes a counter argument from Keep Britain Tidy. Might be useful.
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is graffiti art ?, by graeme501 on Nov 28, 2007 23:41:06 GMT 1, would be fantastic stuey +1
would be fantastic stuey +1
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stuey09
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August 2008
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is graffiti art ?, by stuey09 on Nov 28, 2007 23:46:51 GMT 1, No problem Graeme, I'll pm you Friday 
No problem Graeme, I'll pm you Friday |
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is graffiti art ?, by lesbianwednesdays on Nov 28, 2007 23:52:03 GMT 1, you finally got that gig at Viz then stuey?
you finally got that gig at Viz then stuey?
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Cocteau 101
Junior Member
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January 2007
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is graffiti art ?, by Cocteau 101 on Nov 28, 2007 23:59:09 GMT 1, Eh if it isn't art I'm fucked because I've spent a fortune the last few years, No fucker is painting over my collection and I'm not a hoodlum!
It's definately art mate, I'll pm you my reasoning which I have to say is far more lucid than my usual drivel on here!
Eh if it isn't art I'm fucked because I've spent a fortune the last few years, No fucker is painting over my collection and I'm not a hoodlum!
It's definately art mate, I'll pm you my reasoning which I have to say is far more lucid than my usual drivel on here!
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paulah
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January 2007
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is graffiti art ?, by paulah on Nov 28, 2007 23:59:30 GMT 1, you finally got that gig at Viz then stuey?
fnarr fnarr
you finally got that gig at Viz then stuey? fnarr fnarr |
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stuey09
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August 2008
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is graffiti art ?, by stuey09 on Nov 29, 2007 0:00:44 GMT 1, you finally got that gig at Viz then stuey?
;D Maybe The Victorian Father if my daughters would be believed 
you finally got that gig at Viz then stuey? ;D Maybe The Victorian Father if my daughters would be believed |
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stuey09
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August 2008
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is graffiti art ?, by stuey09 on Nov 29, 2007 0:02:45 GMT 1, Evening Paulah. Shouldn't you be serving drinks and indulging in polite conversation? ;D
Evening Paulah. Shouldn't you be serving drinks and indulging in polite conversation? ;D
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stereoface
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July 2007
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is graffiti art ?, by stereoface on Nov 29, 2007 0:04:52 GMT 1, This is something I have been thinking about alot. I mean on the one hand, you have someone who has works selling at auction houses for in excess of 100k who is able to do so because of the graffiti he produced. On the other hand, you have people creating graffiti that is no more than their attempt to 'claim a piece of property.'
The problem is that now anyone who uses a can of spraypaint on a public building can claim it is art and therefore should be tolerated by society. You really cant argue with them because isnt art really defined by the artist?
I think that this is alot like what Justice Potter Stewart said in Jacobellis v. Ohio. Stewart wrote:
"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that."
I think the resolution here will have to be a similar approach - you know when graffiti is art when you see it. This is kind of consistent with a broken windows theory. Broken windows is all about perception. The perception of the state of the area essentially can breed more crime, etc, etc. Like in NYC back in the day ... the subways were dirty, graffiti was everywhere, etc, etc ... and that led to alot of crime. Same with empty buildins ... the perception is that people dont care. So, at least personally, if my neighborhood started to have interesting, creative, or political graffiti similar to Banksy/the stuff posted here I wouldnt be bothered. However, if I started to see alot of tagging that I associated with gang/criminal activity then I would be a little freaked out.
This is something I have been thinking about alot. I mean on the one hand, you have someone who has works selling at auction houses for in excess of 100k who is able to do so because of the graffiti he produced. On the other hand, you have people creating graffiti that is no more than their attempt to 'claim a piece of property.'
The problem is that now anyone who uses a can of spraypaint on a public building can claim it is art and therefore should be tolerated by society. You really cant argue with them because isnt art really defined by the artist?
I think that this is alot like what Justice Potter Stewart said in Jacobellis v. Ohio. Stewart wrote:
"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that."
I think the resolution here will have to be a similar approach - you know when graffiti is art when you see it. This is kind of consistent with a broken windows theory. Broken windows is all about perception. The perception of the state of the area essentially can breed more crime, etc, etc. Like in NYC back in the day ... the subways were dirty, graffiti was everywhere, etc, etc ... and that led to alot of crime. Same with empty buildins ... the perception is that people dont care. So, at least personally, if my neighborhood started to have interesting, creative, or political graffiti similar to Banksy/the stuff posted here I wouldnt be bothered. However, if I started to see alot of tagging that I associated with gang/criminal activity then I would be a little freaked out.
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is graffiti art ?, by graeme501 on Nov 29, 2007 0:05:13 GMT 1, cheers cocteau, much appriciated, +1 when i can
cheers cocteau, much appriciated, +1 when i can
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is graffiti art ?, by lesbianwednesdays on Nov 29, 2007 0:07:41 GMT 1, This is something I have been thinking about alot. I mean on the one hand, you have someone who has works selling at auction houses for in excess of 100k who is able to do so because of the graffiti he produced. On the other hand, you have people creating graffiti that is no more than their attempt to 'claim a piece of property.' The problem is that now anyone who uses a can of spraypaint on a public building can claim it is art and therefore should be tolerated by society. You really cant argue with them because isnt art really defined by the artist? I think that this is alot like what Justice Potter Stewart said in Jacobellis v. Ohio. Stewart wrote: "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that." I think the resolution here will have to be a similar approach - you know when graffiti is art when you see it. This is kind of consistent with a broken windows theory. Broken windows is all about perception. The perception of the state of the area essentially can breed more crime, etc, etc. Like in NYC back in the day ... the subways were dirty, graffiti was everywhere, etc, etc ... and that led to alot of crime. Same with empty buildins ... the perception is that people dont care. So, at least personally, if my neighborhood started to have interesting, creative, or political graffiti similar to Banksy/the stuff posted here I wouldnt be bothered. However, if I started to see alot of tagging that I associated with gang/criminal activity then I would be a little freaked out.
the whole argument is entirely subjective, where the line is varies for each and every one of us. the same way mainstream art either works for someone or doesn't, what i deem to be criminal damage could be another's art and vice versa.
now pad that out to 10,000 words graeme!
This is something I have been thinking about alot. I mean on the one hand, you have someone who has works selling at auction houses for in excess of 100k who is able to do so because of the graffiti he produced. On the other hand, you have people creating graffiti that is no more than their attempt to 'claim a piece of property.' The problem is that now anyone who uses a can of spraypaint on a public building can claim it is art and therefore should be tolerated by society. You really cant argue with them because isnt art really defined by the artist? I think that this is alot like what Justice Potter Stewart said in Jacobellis v. Ohio. Stewart wrote: "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that." I think the resolution here will have to be a similar approach - you know when graffiti is art when you see it. This is kind of consistent with a broken windows theory. Broken windows is all about perception. The perception of the state of the area essentially can breed more crime, etc, etc. Like in NYC back in the day ... the subways were dirty, graffiti was everywhere, etc, etc ... and that led to alot of crime. Same with empty buildins ... the perception is that people dont care. So, at least personally, if my neighborhood started to have interesting, creative, or political graffiti similar to Banksy/the stuff posted here I wouldnt be bothered. However, if I started to see alot of tagging that I associated with gang/criminal activity then I would be a little freaked out. the whole argument is entirely subjective, where the line is varies for each and every one of us. the same way mainstream art either works for someone or doesn't, what i deem to be criminal damage could be another's art and vice versa. now pad that out to 10,000 words graeme! |
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is graffiti art ?, by graeme501 on Nov 29, 2007 0:23:49 GMT 1, cheers steroface, alot of what im looking in2 has to do with the new york subways, how they cleaned it up and crime dropped, which led to major crimes dropping aswell, but it can work in reverse, hoo wouldnt want to wake up and have a banksy on their house/neighbourhood ? in the wall and piece book banksy has a letter fom some1 hoo cant buy a house where he grew up as his graffiti had made the area trendy
if any1 is interested in this, the tipping point by malcom gladwell and fixing broken windows by george l kelling make good reads
every1 hoo helps me is going to get a +1, im gonna make a list and start getting them done
cheers steroface, alot of what im looking in2 has to do with the new york subways, how they cleaned it up and crime dropped, which led to major crimes dropping aswell, but it can work in reverse, hoo wouldnt want to wake up and have a banksy on their house/neighbourhood ? in the wall and piece book banksy has a letter fom some1 hoo cant buy a house where he grew up as his graffiti had made the area trendy
if any1 is interested in this, the tipping point by malcom gladwell and fixing broken windows by george l kelling make good reads
every1 hoo helps me is going to get a +1, im gonna make a list and start getting them done
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Cocteau 101
Junior Member
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January 2007
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is graffiti art ?, by Cocteau 101 on Nov 29, 2007 0:43:15 GMT 1, Steroface - points well made but to be honest I think that you can divorce the artistic element from the unsocial ( although I hate that expression) element. Habitable, safe environments that most people desire to live in won't be graffiti laden because subconciously people regard graffiti as underground and somewhat menacing. This works for both the criminal and non criminal fraternity. However, I beleieve the pure artistic content is somewhat seperate, regardless of the reason for creation i.e. to mark territory to gain recognition etc the pure prowess of taggers / writers make this art. I could write more but I'm knackered to be honest so will try to add a bit more tomorrow. But would be interested in other views, this could be a great thread!
Steroface - points well made but to be honest I think that you can divorce the artistic element from the unsocial ( although I hate that expression) element. Habitable, safe environments that most people desire to live in won't be graffiti laden because subconciously people regard graffiti as underground and somewhat menacing. This works for both the criminal and non criminal fraternity. However, I beleieve the pure artistic content is somewhat seperate, regardless of the reason for creation i.e. to mark territory to gain recognition etc the pure prowess of taggers / writers make this art. I could write more but I'm knackered to be honest so will try to add a bit more tomorrow. But would be interested in other views, this could be a great thread!
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stereoface
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July 2007
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is graffiti art ?, by stereoface on Nov 29, 2007 1:08:13 GMT 1, cheers steroface, alot of what im looking in2 has to do with the new york subways, how they cleaned it up and crime dropped, which led to major crimes dropping aswell, but it can work in reverse, hoo wouldnt want to wake up and have a banksy on their house/neighbourhood ?
Have you heard of or read a book called "The Tipping Point?" It is by Gladwell who also write "Blink." The book attempts to come up with an explanation of why sometimes an idea catches on ... why it tips. One of the examples he uses is the New York Subways and actually talks about the effect cleaning the graffiti had on crime in general.
Cocteau101 - I think you are right in that you can divorce the artistic from the "unsocial" aspect. I may be misunderstanding you but I think you are saying that regardless of why the graffiti is created there is an inherent artistic quality to it. If that is what you are saying I do agree to that. However, I do feel that the reason the graffiti was created will factor into whether society in general is willing to accept it as "art." Also, I am not sure whether people regard all graffiti as menacing or offensive. I think that again, what people will tollerate depends on what they feel is the motive in creating it. I think that if an average person not familiar with the scene saw two different pieces of graffit: (a) a tag with a gang symbol, and (b) the Banksy take on the scene from Pulp Fiction (just an easy to picture example)most people would find the gang symbol to be more menacing and underground. Sorry if I am missing the point you are making.
cheers steroface, alot of what im looking in2 has to do with the new york subways, how they cleaned it up and crime dropped, which led to major crimes dropping aswell, but it can work in reverse, hoo wouldnt want to wake up and have a banksy on their house/neighbourhood ? Have you heard of or read a book called "The Tipping Point?" It is by Gladwell who also write "Blink." The book attempts to come up with an explanation of why sometimes an idea catches on ... why it tips. One of the examples he uses is the New York Subways and actually talks about the effect cleaning the graffiti had on crime in general. Cocteau101 - I think you are right in that you can divorce the artistic from the "unsocial" aspect. I may be misunderstanding you but I think you are saying that regardless of why the graffiti is created there is an inherent artistic quality to it. If that is what you are saying I do agree to that. However, I do feel that the reason the graffiti was created will factor into whether society in general is willing to accept it as "art." Also, I am not sure whether people regard all graffiti as menacing or offensive. I think that again, what people will tollerate depends on what they feel is the motive in creating it. I think that if an average person not familiar with the scene saw two different pieces of graffit: (a) a tag with a gang symbol, and (b) the Banksy take on the scene from Pulp Fiction (just an easy to picture example)most people would find the gang symbol to be more menacing and underground. Sorry if I am missing the point you are making. |
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is graffiti art ?, by graeme501 on Nov 29, 2007 1:10:00 GMT 1, yup, its a good book, but some bits round people up in2 sterotypes and its very americanized
yup, its a good book, but some bits round people up in2 sterotypes and its very americanized
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Cocteau 101
Junior Member
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January 2007
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is graffiti art ?, by Cocteau 101 on Nov 29, 2007 1:12:09 GMT 1, Stereoface, agree totally, I'm a bit tired and you are more articulate my friend. You've hit the point I was trying to make spot on. I regard graffiti as art (inherently). However, I understand the point the motive point.
Stereoface, agree totally, I'm a bit tired and you are more articulate my friend. You've hit the point I was trying to make spot on. I regard graffiti as art (inherently). However, I understand the point the motive point.
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Avian Security
Artist
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November 2007
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is graffiti art ?, by Avian Security on Nov 29, 2007 1:14:55 GMT 1, Don't forget to quote the email in Wall and Piece about "reverse broken window theory."
Don't forget to quote the email in Wall and Piece about "reverse broken window theory."
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mike hunt
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December 2006
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is graffiti art ?, by mike hunt on Nov 29, 2007 11:55:24 GMT 1, Graeme - I think this is the old 'is it art?' question. Of course, art is whatever someone wants it to be. The real question is 'is it good art?'. I'm sure a lot of people agree, that most tagging is like a dog pissing against a lampost, marking its territory. If its art, its a very low art form. Motivation is the key - does the 'artist' want to create or subvert something, or just write his name? Saying that, even writing your name shows the smallest bit of expression - through handwriting - but if that makes a tag art then so is every cheque I sign! Don't know if any of what I said makes sense - sorry if its bollox!
Then there's prejudice against format. Art can come in a lot of guises, but sometimes if its in or on a format that has never been presented as art, a lot of people won't take it seriously. When comics became top quality graphic novels in the late 80's / early 90's, there was still a dominant and traditional view that the format was for kids or semi-literate people. Same for street art - there will always be people who cannot come to terms with the idea that this could ever be art.
Graeme - I think this is the old 'is it art?' question. Of course, art is whatever someone wants it to be. The real question is 'is it good art?'. I'm sure a lot of people agree, that most tagging is like a dog pissing against a lampost, marking its territory. If its art, its a very low art form. Motivation is the key - does the 'artist' want to create or subvert something, or just write his name? Saying that, even writing your name shows the smallest bit of expression - through handwriting - but if that makes a tag art then so is every cheque I sign! Don't know if any of what I said makes sense - sorry if its bollox!
Then there's prejudice against format. Art can come in a lot of guises, but sometimes if its in or on a format that has never been presented as art, a lot of people won't take it seriously. When comics became top quality graphic novels in the late 80's / early 90's, there was still a dominant and traditional view that the format was for kids or semi-literate people. Same for street art - there will always be people who cannot come to terms with the idea that this could ever be art.
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seidbereit
Junior Member
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November 2007
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is graffiti art ?, by seidbereit on Nov 29, 2007 13:36:50 GMT 1, This Charles Dada print (collaboration with Rare kinds Daz one) says NO.
However in this case I think it may literally only be referring to this print (which I'm still struggling to like get used to)
 
This Charles Dada print (collaboration with Rare kinds Daz one) says NO. However in this case I think it may literally only be referring to this print (which I'm still struggling to like get used to) |
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Copyright
Artist
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Posts โข 477
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May 2007
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is graffiti art ?, by Copyright on Nov 29, 2007 14:31:37 GMT 1, the questions a bit of a paradox.
Graffiti by its nature is a rebelion of what the mainstream world would call art, and dissregards its formality, concepts and pretences. The very things that are considered a given in the art world.
Street art however takes a lot of the asthetics and technique of the graffiti movement, but isnt affraid of a little (and i do say little) pretence, to inhance the work.
simple.
the questions a bit of a paradox.
Graffiti by its nature is a rebelion of what the mainstream world would call art, and dissregards its formality, concepts and pretences. The very things that are considered a given in the art world.
Street art however takes a lot of the asthetics and technique of the graffiti movement, but isnt affraid of a little (and i do say little) pretence, to inhance the work.
simple.
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shower
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,543
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September 2007
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is graffiti art ?, by shower on Nov 29, 2007 16:14:25 GMT 1, im currently doing my dissertation on graff. pm me if you want some more detailed stuff! or if any writers wanna help me out pm me and il email you a questionnaire to fill in. anyway ive been reading about graff non stop for 4 months so sorta have come to a few conclusions!
graff started in the late 60s early 70s as a form of protest against american authority and the fight against modernism! it was closely liked to the situationists and the protest against the vietnam war. graff then developed from this initial protest of tagging into dubs and throw ups and eventually into pieces on the new york subway system. check out dondi white for the commodification side beacuse thats when graff becomes "art". as graff has developed writers such as dondi and seen have commodified it. put it on canvas and sold it in galleries. today has seen a massiev increase in that with artists (see i now say artists and not writers) such as banksy, d*face etc etc expoliting the market for commodified graff. i however think that its a form of expression and protest with stong political undertones. some people may consider it to be art and work that is sold could easily be classed as art but thats not how it is seen by civic authorities on the street!
would be good to get a bit more feedback so if you want a chat pm me!
im currently doing my dissertation on graff. pm me if you want some more detailed stuff! or if any writers wanna help me out pm me and il email you a questionnaire to fill in. anyway ive been reading about graff non stop for 4 months so sorta have come to a few conclusions!
graff started in the late 60s early 70s as a form of protest against american authority and the fight against modernism! it was closely liked to the situationists and the protest against the vietnam war. graff then developed from this initial protest of tagging into dubs and throw ups and eventually into pieces on the new york subway system. check out dondi white for the commodification side beacuse thats when graff becomes "art". as graff has developed writers such as dondi and seen have commodified it. put it on canvas and sold it in galleries. today has seen a massiev increase in that with artists (see i now say artists and not writers) such as banksy, d*face etc etc expoliting the market for commodified graff. i however think that its a form of expression and protest with stong political undertones. some people may consider it to be art and work that is sold could easily be classed as art but thats not how it is seen by civic authorities on the street!
would be good to get a bit more feedback so if you want a chat pm me!
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is graffiti art ?, by a4mnt on Nov 29, 2007 21:31:51 GMT 1, 
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is graffiti art ?, by corblimeylimey on Nov 29, 2007 21:48:44 GMT 1, Yes it is art...
Now go and do all your own work you lazy student ;D
Yes it is art... Now go and do all your own work you lazy student ;D |
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is graffiti art ?, by lesbianwednesdays on Nov 29, 2007 22:00:40 GMT 1, can i just make a point. the art behind tagging is not in the image/lack of, or even what it says, it's about positioning.
there is a world of difference between what paul weller describes as "Getting a cab and travelling on buses -
Reading the graffiti about slashed seat affairs " in that's entertainment, and the exuberence of youth that feels the need to not only blame their name across town but to do it ithe hard to reach places that no-one else could, or would.
not that i condone, agree with or even like it but it is very much a young man's sport and that is reflected in the one-up-man-ship status of the game.
can i just make a point. the art behind tagging is not in the image/lack of, or even what it says, it's about positioning.
there is a world of difference between what paul weller describes as "Getting a cab and travelling on buses -
Reading the graffiti about slashed seat affairs " in that's entertainment, and the exuberence of youth that feels the need to not only blame their name across town but to do it ithe hard to reach places that no-one else could, or would.
not that i condone, agree with or even like it but it is very much a young man's sport and that is reflected in the one-up-man-ship status of the game.
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shower
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,543
Likes โข 23
September 2007
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is graffiti art ?, by shower on Nov 29, 2007 22:10:16 GMT 1,
that is fucking rad! where you find it?!
that is fucking rad! where you find it?! |
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is graffiti art ?, by ambrosiabaptism on Nov 29, 2007 22:19:14 GMT 1, Graeme I've got something for you that I did for a magazine this month. Can't pm it until Friday, but you're welcome to it. It also includes a counter argument from Keep Britain Tidy. Might be useful.
ooh that sounds interesting would you post it or PM
TIA
Graeme I've got something for you that I did for a magazine this month. Can't pm it until Friday, but you're welcome to it. It also includes a counter argument from Keep Britain Tidy. Might be useful. ooh that sounds interesting would you post it or PM TIA |
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is graffiti art ?, by a4mnt on Nov 29, 2007 22:21:32 GMT 1, its on the pavement near my house. someone has taken to spraying stuff on the same street since Summer. Most of it quite tacky. But i liked this one. Enough to take a photo anyway, but not a lot more than that
its on the pavement near my house. someone has taken to spraying stuff on the same street since Summer. Most of it quite tacky. But i liked this one. Enough to take a photo anyway, but not a lot more than that |
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