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Contract Law and Print Buying...!, by paulypaul on Nov 2, 2007 13:02:46 GMT 1, Started to think about this when I saw people being refunded by BlkMrkt after buying the Ian Francis print.
If you buy online, have the order accepted, payment taken and then refunded - what's the legal situation?
I'm doing this more as an exercise in navel gazing and curiousity than any effort to right wrongs because I understand even if legally dubious you would have to sue for breach etc etc. I just wondered if any of our forum were members of the second oldest profession and might have an opinion?
Started to think about this when I saw people being refunded by BlkMrkt after buying the Ian Francis print.
If you buy online, have the order accepted, payment taken and then refunded - what's the legal situation?
I'm doing this more as an exercise in navel gazing and curiousity than any effort to right wrongs because I understand even if legally dubious you would have to sue for breach etc etc. I just wondered if any of our forum were members of the second oldest profession and might have an opinion?
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Contract Law and Print Buying...!, by corblimeylimey on Nov 2, 2007 13:05:48 GMT 1, They're running round London looking for a box
They're running round London looking for a box
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Contract Law and Print Buying...!, by finsburyparkranger on Nov 2, 2007 13:07:07 GMT 1, Started to think about this when I saw people being refunded by BlkMrkt after buying the Ian Francis print. If you buy online, have the order accepted, payment taken and then refunded - what's the legal situation? I'm doing this more as an exercise in navel gazing and curiousity than any effort to right wrongs because I understand even if legally dubious you would have to sue for breach etc etc. I just wondered if any of our forum were members of the second oldest profession and might have an opinion?
It just depends on the contract you agreed I think. When you signed there terms and conditions you would have agreed to accept a refund whenever the wanted probably.
Started to think about this when I saw people being refunded by BlkMrkt after buying the Ian Francis print. If you buy online, have the order accepted, payment taken and then refunded - what's the legal situation? I'm doing this more as an exercise in navel gazing and curiousity than any effort to right wrongs because I understand even if legally dubious you would have to sue for breach etc etc. I just wondered if any of our forum were members of the second oldest profession and might have an opinion? It just depends on the contract you agreed I think. When you signed there terms and conditions you would have agreed to accept a refund whenever the wanted probably. |
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gozgoz
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,617
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September 2007
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Contract Law and Print Buying...!, by gozgoz on Nov 2, 2007 13:07:41 GMT 1, dang... i should know this since im a lawyer.... but.... erm... There's probably a clause somewhere in the font size 2 terms and conditions stating that payment may be refunded at seller's discretion or something.
dang... i should know this since im a lawyer.... but.... erm... There's probably a clause somewhere in the font size 2 terms and conditions stating that payment may be refunded at seller's discretion or something.
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nickc
New Member
Posts โข 402
Likes โข 2
August 2007
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Contract Law and Print Buying...!, by nickc on Nov 2, 2007 13:11:00 GMT 1, Not quite of the second oldest profession but deal every now and again in contract law. Without knowing the terms and conditions BlkMrkt offered for these particular prints, or indeed it's general terms and conditions of business then it is hard to comment on specifics. However, it could be considered that you and they have entered in to a legally binding agreement with the conditions clear on both sides i.e. They have set a price, you have agreed to that price, you have paid money which they have then accepted. The fact that they don't advertise their general terms on their site suggests that they haven't actually thought through scenarios like this. It could be interesting if you turned round to them and said that you are not accepting a refund, that you want the print and nothing else. It would be interesting to see what their response would be. Always best if you could quote some law pertaining to these points from their State.
Not quite of the second oldest profession but deal every now and again in contract law. Without knowing the terms and conditions BlkMrkt offered for these particular prints, or indeed it's general terms and conditions of business then it is hard to comment on specifics. However, it could be considered that you and they have entered in to a legally binding agreement with the conditions clear on both sides i.e. They have set a price, you have agreed to that price, you have paid money which they have then accepted. The fact that they don't advertise their general terms on their site suggests that they haven't actually thought through scenarios like this. It could be interesting if you turned round to them and said that you are not accepting a refund, that you want the print and nothing else. It would be interesting to see what their response would be. Always best if you could quote some law pertaining to these points from their State.
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Contract Law and Print Buying...!, by paulypaul on Nov 2, 2007 13:39:23 GMT 1, Not quite of the second oldest profession but deal every now and again in contract law. Without knowing the terms and conditions BlkMrkt offered for these particular prints, or indeed it's general terms and conditions of business then it is hard to comment on specifics. However, it could be considered that you and they have entered in to a legally binding agreement with the conditions clear on both sides i.e. They have set a price, you have agreed to that price, you have paid money which they have then accepted. The fact that they don't advertise their general terms on their site suggests that they haven't actually thought through scenarios like this. It could be interesting if you turned round to them and said that you are not accepting a refund, that you want the print and nothing else. It would be interesting to see what their response would be. Always best if you could quote some law pertaining to these points from their State.
Cheers Nick.
California contract law would seem to indicate that they are in breach...
www.weblocator.com/attorney/ca/law/c06.html#cac061200
Not quite of the second oldest profession but deal every now and again in contract law. Without knowing the terms and conditions BlkMrkt offered for these particular prints, or indeed it's general terms and conditions of business then it is hard to comment on specifics. However, it could be considered that you and they have entered in to a legally binding agreement with the conditions clear on both sides i.e. They have set a price, you have agreed to that price, you have paid money which they have then accepted. The fact that they don't advertise their general terms on their site suggests that they haven't actually thought through scenarios like this. It could be interesting if you turned round to them and said that you are not accepting a refund, that you want the print and nothing else. It would be interesting to see what their response would be. Always best if you could quote some law pertaining to these points from their State. Cheers Nick. California contract law would seem to indicate that they are in breach... www.weblocator.com/attorney/ca/law/c06.html#cac061200 |
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njr911
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,365
Likes โข 402
April 2007
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Contract Law and Print Buying...!, by njr911 on Nov 2, 2007 13:49:31 GMT 1, I think they will probably get round it by saying you weren't invited to buy the print in the first place...so an offer was never made.
Grey area though!
I think they will probably get round it by saying you weren't invited to buy the print in the first place...so an offer was never made.
Grey area though!
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Contract Law and Print Buying...!, by koolchris99 on Nov 2, 2007 13:52:48 GMT 1, my old man is a contract law special dude and reckons that they would be in breach, there are no terms and conditions so you could infact ask for the print and not the refund...
my old man is a contract law special dude and reckons that they would be in breach, there are no terms and conditions so you could infact ask for the print and not the refund...
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Contract Law and Print Buying...!, by koolchris99 on Nov 2, 2007 14:15:44 GMT 1, Picturesonwalls reserve the right to issue refunds at any time prior to delivery.
straight from the horses mouth
Picturesonwalls reserve the right to issue refunds at any time prior to delivery.
straight from the horses mouth
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nickc
New Member
Posts โข 402
Likes โข 2
August 2007
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Contract Law and Print Buying...!, by nickc on Nov 2, 2007 14:19:43 GMT 1, I think they will probably get round it by saying you weren't invited to buy the print in the first place...so an offer was never made. Grey area though!
The argument to that though is that they are a shop clearly selling items. Therefore, it's an open invitation to those who have the funds to pay. They don't have a security man on the door telling you that you can't come in...
I think they will probably get round it by saying you weren't invited to buy the print in the first place...so an offer was never made. Grey area though! The argument to that though is that they are a shop clearly selling items. Therefore, it's an open invitation to those who have the funds to pay. They don't have a security man on the door telling you that you can't come in... |
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stereoface
New Member
Posts โข 122
Likes โข 0
July 2007
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Contract Law and Print Buying...!, by stereoface on Nov 2, 2007 14:21:43 GMT 1, In general, without knowing whether the contract has specific terms for this situation (like POW does), they likely are in breach. You could sue for specific performance and allege that you fufilled your part of the contract. Then, since you are suing for s.p. and not for damages, you demand a copy of the print. However, as the print was a limited run, if they refund you because they simply ran out of the print you may be out of luck. There is a practical problem in that the software just cant manage the inventory fast enough to deal with the volume of orders for such a small quantity of prints. In that case you may have to just get your money back.
In general, without knowing whether the contract has specific terms for this situation (like POW does), they likely are in breach. You could sue for specific performance and allege that you fufilled your part of the contract. Then, since you are suing for s.p. and not for damages, you demand a copy of the print. However, as the print was a limited run, if they refund you because they simply ran out of the print you may be out of luck. There is a practical problem in that the software just cant manage the inventory fast enough to deal with the volume of orders for such a small quantity of prints. In that case you may have to just get your money back.
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Contract Law and Print Buying...!, by trebor on Nov 2, 2007 14:24:06 GMT 1, Started to think about this when I saw people being refunded by BlkMrkt after buying the Ian Francis print. If you buy online, have the order accepted, payment taken and then refunded - what's the legal situation? I'm doing this more as an exercise in navel gazing and curiousity than any effort to right wrongs because I understand even if legally dubious you would have to sue for breach etc etc. I just wondered if any of our forum were members of the second oldest profession and might have an opinion?
Can you SUE?
Your making me feel sick, all this art buying stuff has got out of hand it really has.
These guys are not Argos, nor are they Sainsbury's, they are simple art folk that can't deal with thousands of orders and madness.
Started to think about this when I saw people being refunded by BlkMrkt after buying the Ian Francis print. If you buy online, have the order accepted, payment taken and then refunded - what's the legal situation? I'm doing this more as an exercise in navel gazing and curiousity than any effort to right wrongs because I understand even if legally dubious you would have to sue for breach etc etc. I just wondered if any of our forum were members of the second oldest profession and might have an opinion? Can you SUE? Your making me feel sick, all this art buying stuff has got out of hand it really has. These guys are not Argos, nor are they Sainsbury's, they are simple art folk that can't deal with thousands of orders and madness. |
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Contract Law and Print Buying...!, by paulypaul on Nov 2, 2007 14:31:48 GMT 1, I make the reference to sue as a genereal reference to the remedies available following a breach of contract.
For instance - they may be in breach but Old Bill can't go and resolve the situation. It has to be pursued through the civil courts which is to sue...
Sperately, I think you're kidding yourself about simple art folk...
I make the reference to sue as a genereal reference to the remedies available following a breach of contract.
For instance - they may be in breach but Old Bill can't go and resolve the situation. It has to be pursued through the civil courts which is to sue...
Sperately, I think you're kidding yourself about simple art folk...
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rydal
New Member
Posts โข 109
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October 2006
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Contract Law and Print Buying...!, by rydal on Nov 2, 2007 18:45:01 GMT 1, Putting aside the fact that US law applies not English, those who ordered but were not on the list would find it very difficult to insist on a print even if payment were taken. Firstly there are issues over whether an order has been "accepted" where the process is fully automated and at no stage has an actual decision whether to accept or not been made. It is for this reason that cheques sent in "full and final settlement" will not necessarily bar further claims even when cashed where the payment process is automated. This alone may be able to be overcome, however;
Secondly, it is almost certain that the retailer would be be able escape from the contract on the basis of mistake. They believed that they were receiving an order from a person on the preview list as these were the only persons thought to be logistically able to place an order. This was their mistake. Where a mistake is one sided there is room for argument however as the buyer would also have KNOWN of the mistake, as they were fully aware they ought not to be ordering, having not received the e-mail and having had to obtain log-in details from elsewhere, I would be confident that the contract would be set aside on this basis.
Yes, I'm a member of the profession and when I'm not soliciting you will find me at the bar!!
Putting aside the fact that US law applies not English, those who ordered but were not on the list would find it very difficult to insist on a print even if payment were taken. Firstly there are issues over whether an order has been "accepted" where the process is fully automated and at no stage has an actual decision whether to accept or not been made. It is for this reason that cheques sent in "full and final settlement" will not necessarily bar further claims even when cashed where the payment process is automated. This alone may be able to be overcome, however;
Secondly, it is almost certain that the retailer would be be able escape from the contract on the basis of mistake. They believed that they were receiving an order from a person on the preview list as these were the only persons thought to be logistically able to place an order. This was their mistake. Where a mistake is one sided there is room for argument however as the buyer would also have KNOWN of the mistake, as they were fully aware they ought not to be ordering, having not received the e-mail and having had to obtain log-in details from elsewhere, I would be confident that the contract would be set aside on this basis.
Yes, I'm a member of the profession and when I'm not soliciting you will find me at the bar!!
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