slinkink
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March 2007
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Thoughts on APs, by slinkink on Apr 13, 2007 5:59:33 GMT 1, Firstly thanks for all the replies to my earlier thread about edition numbers. as someone relatively new to all this i have found the forum and it's members so very helpful so a profound thanks to everyone for their advice and views...
now i'd love to get your thoughts on APs as opposed to regular numbered edition prints... would you pay more for APs or less?? asuming the AP run was small and numbered (say 10% of a limited run, i know i read somewhere on here there being a 'standard maximum' AP percentage amount... is this a generally accepted percentage?).
are signed APs more or less desirable than 'standard' signed numbered editions..
better or worse investment? (and before i get slated for bringing up the investment side of things, i agree loving something and having it on your wall is the first and best reason to buy art but with some of the prices some of our lovely banksys and micalleffs are making, not many of us can ignore the investment aspect of our addiction!... xgrinx)
and what about APs that are just marked AP and not a numbered AP 'edition'.
thank you so much for all your help and continuing education!
Firstly thanks for all the replies to my earlier thread about edition numbers. as someone relatively new to all this i have found the forum and it's members so very helpful so a profound thanks to everyone for their advice and views...
now i'd love to get your thoughts on APs as opposed to regular numbered edition prints... would you pay more for APs or less?? asuming the AP run was small and numbered (say 10% of a limited run, i know i read somewhere on here there being a 'standard maximum' AP percentage amount... is this a generally accepted percentage?).
are signed APs more or less desirable than 'standard' signed numbered editions..
better or worse investment? (and before i get slated for bringing up the investment side of things, i agree loving something and having it on your wall is the first and best reason to buy art but with some of the prices some of our lovely banksys and micalleffs are making, not many of us can ignore the investment aspect of our addiction!... xgrinx)
and what about APs that are just marked AP and not a numbered AP 'edition'.
thank you so much for all your help and continuing education!
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Thoughts on APs, by beejoir1 on Apr 13, 2007 6:19:52 GMT 1, I think the Printers proofs are always nicer, or a bit madder, they are sneaky troll like shits that print a set for themselves, get the artist to sign and stamp them, then sneak them away from the rest of the world in a draw where no one will ever find them!!!
5 LVs missing all of differnt colours, 5 Turins, and many more!
I'd love to see what Ben Eine has!
I think the Printers proofs are always nicer, or a bit madder, they are sneaky troll like shits that print a set for themselves, get the artist to sign and stamp them, then sneak them away from the rest of the world in a draw where no one will ever find them!!!
5 LVs missing all of differnt colours, 5 Turins, and many more!
I'd love to see what Ben Eine has!
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Ågentßacardi
Junior Member
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September 2006
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Thoughts on APs, by Ågentßacardi on Apr 13, 2007 6:31:41 GMT 1, I think the Printers proofs are always nicer, or a bit madder, they are sneaky troll like s**ts that print a set for themselves, get the artist to sign and stamp them, then sneak them away from the rest of the world in a draw where no one will ever find them!!! 5 LVs missing all of differnt colours, 5 Turins, and many more! I'd love to see what Ben Eine has!
Looks like you need to find a new printer! Either that, or stop signing them! ;D
I think the Printers proofs are always nicer, or a bit madder, they are sneaky troll like s**ts that print a set for themselves, get the artist to sign and stamp them, then sneak them away from the rest of the world in a draw where no one will ever find them!!! 5 LVs missing all of differnt colours, 5 Turins, and many more! I'd love to see what Ben Eine has! Looks like you need to find a new printer! Either that, or stop signing them! ;D |
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slinkink
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March 2007
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Thoughts on APs, by slinkink on Apr 13, 2007 6:46:05 GMT 1, you up early beejoir or still jet lagged 
ok so can i add to that a seperate line about printer's proofs then... where do they fit in? what would you prefer? and pay more for? and search more for?
signed and numbered edition?
signed and numbered artists proof AP?
signed, not numbered printers proof PP?
thoughts people?
you up early beejoir or still jet lagged ok so can i add to that a seperate line about printer's proofs then... where do they fit in? what would you prefer? and pay more for? and search more for? signed and numbered edition? signed and numbered artists proof AP? signed, not numbered printers proof PP? thoughts people? |
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Ågentßacardi
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September 2006
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Thoughts on APs, by Ågentßacardi on Apr 13, 2007 7:02:08 GMT 1, you up early beejoir or still jet lagged ok so can i add to that a seperate line about printer's proofs then... where do they fit in? what would you prefer? and pay more for? and search more for? signed and numbered edition? signed and numbered artists proof AP? signed, not numbered printers proof PP? thoughts people?
Unfortunately, I don't know too much about A/P's and P/P's and can't tell you too much 
But I do know that they're always worth quite a bit more than the regular editions because they're MUCH smaller runs, and also because they're usually one-of-a-kind (or close to that) variations of the 'normal' image. So for instance, #1/6 of an AP might look different from #2/6, and so on. As for the signature, the A/P's and P/P's that I've come across have always been signed by the artist, and also stamped by the print house. Whether or not it's a must, I do not know exactly. But I think I'm pretty sure that all signed A/P's or P/P's are usually worth quite a bit more than the regular signed editions, simply because they're much more rare.
Wait a few hours, and I'm sure someone with a lot more knowledge will fill you in
you up early beejoir or still jet lagged ok so can i add to that a seperate line about printer's proofs then... where do they fit in? what would you prefer? and pay more for? and search more for? signed and numbered edition? signed and numbered artists proof AP? signed, not numbered printers proof PP? thoughts people? Unfortunately, I don't know too much about A/P's and P/P's and can't tell you too much But I do know that they're always worth quite a bit more than the regular editions because they're MUCH smaller runs, and also because they're usually one-of-a-kind (or close to that) variations of the 'normal' image. So for instance, #1/6 of an AP might look different from #2/6, and so on. As for the signature, the A/P's and P/P's that I've come across have always been signed by the artist, and also stamped by the print house. Whether or not it's a must, I do not know exactly. But I think I'm pretty sure that all signed A/P's or P/P's are usually worth quite a bit more than the regular signed editions, simply because they're much more rare. Wait a few hours, and I'm sure someone with a lot more knowledge will fill you in |
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Ripper1331
Artist
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February 2007
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Thoughts on APs, by Ripper1331 on Apr 13, 2007 8:26:05 GMT 1, Here is something from another forum on numbering prints:
This is a reproduction of most of pages 113~114 from the book "The
Tamarind Book of Lithography: Art & Techniques". Of course, I do not
have their explicit permission to reproduce it here, but this seems like
one of those 'fair use' occasions, I think ...
Some of their points are specific to lithographs, but most of this is
more general, and would perhaps apply to woodblock work too.
(I don't quite know _why_ I'm doing this - I think most of you know what
_I_ think of the practice of edition numbering ...)
*** start extract ***
5.1 SIGNING AND NUMBERING THE EDITION
<snip>
Before the artist begins to sign and number the prints, each impression
must be examined and compared with the bon a tirer. Weak or flawed
impressions must be placed aside, later to be destroyed. In some
workshops the printer may wish to look through the edition before the
artist; in other workshops a curator may be employed to examine all
editions prior to signature. Although either the printer or a curator
may reject an impression that does not meet the workshop's standard, the
artist has final responsibility for acceptance. Through his signature he
attests to the quality of each impression and to his acceptance of it.
Both the form and the placement of the signature are determined by the
artist. He may use his initials or his full name; he may use pencil or
colored crayon; he may place the signature in any position on the face
of the print, in the margin or within the image. Occasionally, when the
aesthetic of the work demands it, he may elect to place his signature on
the reverse side of the print.
As the prints are signed they are also numbered or designated as
proofs. The numbered impressions in an edition of twenty are marked
1/20, 2/20, and through to 20/20. As all impressions should be identical
with the bon a tirer, with which each is compared at the time of
signature, the sequence of the numbers has no meaning; the first print
in an edition of lithographs should be no different from the last. As a
result, few printers make a practice of numbering impressions at the
press. In color lithography such a practice would in any event be
fruitless, for the impressions will not normally be printed in the same
sequence as each color is added. The true meaning of the number 1/20 is
thus that the impression is one of an edition of twenty, not
specifically that it is the first of twenty.
At times, particularly when a large edition is printed, a reserved or
preferred edition will be printed on a different kind of paper. Two
hundred impressions might be made on Arches paper, for example, and
another twenty five on Japan. When this is done it is customary to use
Roman numerals on the preferred edition: I/XXV, II/XXV, etc.
After all the numbered impressions have been signed, a few remaining
impressions of good quality may be designated artist's proofs. Although
there is no universally accepted limit, the number of artist's proofs
should be very small. To permit a large number of artist's proofs is to
practice a deception, for the numbering of the edition thus becomes
meaningless.
By custom, the bon a tirer impression, after signature by the artist,
becomes the property of the workshop or the collaborating printer.
Because such impressions are unique and of perfect quality they have a
particular appeal to collectors, thus tending to command a premium price
when on occasion they enter the marketplace.
Here is something from another forum on numbering prints:
This is a reproduction of most of pages 113~114 from the book "The
Tamarind Book of Lithography: Art & Techniques". Of course, I do not
have their explicit permission to reproduce it here, but this seems like
one of those 'fair use' occasions, I think ...
Some of their points are specific to lithographs, but most of this is
more general, and would perhaps apply to woodblock work too.
(I don't quite know _why_ I'm doing this - I think most of you know what
_I_ think of the practice of edition numbering ...)
*** start extract ***
5.1 SIGNING AND NUMBERING THE EDITION
<snip>
Before the artist begins to sign and number the prints, each impression
must be examined and compared with the bon a tirer. Weak or flawed
impressions must be placed aside, later to be destroyed. In some
workshops the printer may wish to look through the edition before the
artist; in other workshops a curator may be employed to examine all
editions prior to signature. Although either the printer or a curator
may reject an impression that does not meet the workshop's standard, the
artist has final responsibility for acceptance. Through his signature he
attests to the quality of each impression and to his acceptance of it.
Both the form and the placement of the signature are determined by the
artist. He may use his initials or his full name; he may use pencil or
colored crayon; he may place the signature in any position on the face
of the print, in the margin or within the image. Occasionally, when the
aesthetic of the work demands it, he may elect to place his signature on
the reverse side of the print.
As the prints are signed they are also numbered or designated as
proofs. The numbered impressions in an edition of twenty are marked
1/20, 2/20, and through to 20/20. As all impressions should be identical
with the bon a tirer, with which each is compared at the time of
signature, the sequence of the numbers has no meaning; the first print
in an edition of lithographs should be no different from the last. As a
result, few printers make a practice of numbering impressions at the
press. In color lithography such a practice would in any event be
fruitless, for the impressions will not normally be printed in the same
sequence as each color is added. The true meaning of the number 1/20 is
thus that the impression is one of an edition of twenty, not
specifically that it is the first of twenty.
At times, particularly when a large edition is printed, a reserved or
preferred edition will be printed on a different kind of paper. Two
hundred impressions might be made on Arches paper, for example, and
another twenty five on Japan. When this is done it is customary to use
Roman numerals on the preferred edition: I/XXV, II/XXV, etc.
After all the numbered impressions have been signed, a few remaining
impressions of good quality may be designated artist's proofs. Although
there is no universally accepted limit, the number of artist's proofs
should be very small. To permit a large number of artist's proofs is to
practice a deception, for the numbering of the edition thus becomes
meaningless.
By custom, the bon a tirer impression, after signature by the artist,
becomes the property of the workshop or the collaborating printer.
Because such impressions are unique and of perfect quality they have a
particular appeal to collectors, thus tending to command a premium price
when on occasion they enter the marketplace.
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Ripper1331
Artist
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February 2007
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Thoughts on APs, by Ripper1331 on Apr 13, 2007 8:30:28 GMT 1, Identification
These are signed by the artist, dated and identified with Arab- numeral fractions.
Example: Identical copies of an edition of twenty-five.
1/25 (2/25, 3/25, etc.) title, signature of the artist, date.
Artist's Proofs
Artist's proofs are printed over and above the edition, and are reserved for the artist in the case of editions commissioned by a publisher. Artist's who print their own work are not obliged to pull these supplementary copies, but some do and keep them for their personal collection.
Artist's proofs make up 10% the total edition. They are identical to the other prints and have the same commercial value.
Identification
Artist's proofs are signed by the artist, dated and identified with <<artist's proof>>, or the abbreviation A.P. Their numbering is expressed as Roman-numeral fractions.
Example: An edition of three artist's proofs (10% of an edition of thirty):
Artist's proof (or A.P.) I/III (II/III, III/III) title, signature, date.
Printer's Proofs
When the artist calls upon a printer to produce an edition, 1 or 2 identical proofs from the edition are reserved and identified as printer's proofs.
Identification
These are signed by the artist, dated and identified with <<printer's proof>>, or << P.P. >>.
If there are more than one printer's proof, each is numbered. The numbering is a fraction in Roman numerals.
Example: Printer's proof (or P.P.) I/II (II/II) title, signature of the artist, date.
"Code of Ethics For Original Printmaking"
ISBN 2-922018-05-9
www.unm.edu/~tamarind/bookstore.html
Identification These are signed by the artist, dated and identified with Arab- numeral fractions. Example: Identical copies of an edition of twenty-five. 1/25 (2/25, 3/25, etc.) title, signature of the artist, date. Artist's Proofs Artist's proofs are printed over and above the edition, and are reserved for the artist in the case of editions commissioned by a publisher. Artist's who print their own work are not obliged to pull these supplementary copies, but some do and keep them for their personal collection. Artist's proofs make up 10% the total edition. They are identical to the other prints and have the same commercial value. Identification Artist's proofs are signed by the artist, dated and identified with <<artist's proof>>, or the abbreviation A.P. Their numbering is expressed as Roman-numeral fractions. Example: An edition of three artist's proofs (10% of an edition of thirty): Artist's proof (or A.P.) I/III (II/III, III/III) title, signature, date. Printer's Proofs When the artist calls upon a printer to produce an edition, 1 or 2 identical proofs from the edition are reserved and identified as printer's proofs. Identification These are signed by the artist, dated and identified with <<printer's proof>>, or << P.P. >>. If there are more than one printer's proof, each is numbered. The numbering is a fraction in Roman numerals. Example: Printer's proof (or P.P.) I/II (II/II) title, signature of the artist, date. "Code of Ethics For Original Printmaking" ISBN 2-922018-05-9 www.unm.edu/~tamarind/bookstore.html |
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neutral
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Posts • 744
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February 2007
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Thoughts on APs, by neutral on Apr 13, 2007 8:34:51 GMT 1, To my mind, PP and AP are just extra run the printer and artist keep for their records/gift/... with no diffrence at all from the normal run of the edition. The fact that it is generally 10% of the edition number do not make it more appealing as it is exactly the same image and with no intention to be sold at first.
No offense to anyone liking more APs or PPs over normal run, but being the same image, the fact to be drawn by a lower number is rather silly.
On the other end, Test Prints are more valuable since it allows the artist to choose the color, freely experiment with the printing process and so on. These will always be beside the normal edition and beside AP/PP.
Baring in mind that some forms of printing techniques also allows you a more deeper test and mix up than others. Screenprints, Etching, Linocut vs Litho and Offset.
Not that I have an extended knowledge of it but it my experience with printing.
To my mind, PP and AP are just extra run the printer and artist keep for their records/gift/... with no diffrence at all from the normal run of the edition. The fact that it is generally 10% of the edition number do not make it more appealing as it is exactly the same image and with no intention to be sold at first.
No offense to anyone liking more APs or PPs over normal run, but being the same image, the fact to be drawn by a lower number is rather silly.
On the other end, Test Prints are more valuable since it allows the artist to choose the color, freely experiment with the printing process and so on. These will always be beside the normal edition and beside AP/PP.
Baring in mind that some forms of printing techniques also allows you a more deeper test and mix up than others. Screenprints, Etching, Linocut vs Litho and Offset.
Not that I have an extended knowledge of it but it my experience with printing.
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Curley
Junior Member
Posts • 2,012
Likes • 7
June 2006
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Thoughts on APs, by Curley on Apr 13, 2007 8:40:42 GMT 1,
There are of course Artist proofs that are worth much much more as they are different colourways to the released edition and much much rarer.
An example would be the the different coloured versions Napalm that are AP only. ;D
There are of course Artist proofs that are worth much much more as they are different colourways to the released edition and much much rarer.
An example would be the the different coloured versions Napalm that are AP only. ;D
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neutral
New Member
Posts • 744
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February 2007
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Thoughts on APs, by neutral on Apr 13, 2007 8:43:28 GMT 1, There are of course Artist proofs that are worth much much more as they are different colourways to the released edition and much much rarer. An example would be the the different coloured versions Napalm that are AP only. ;D
I know, but yet I can not help myself to see that as a run of test prints rather than AP !
Was it also a difference in the Mickey Mouse Button?
There are of course Artist proofs that are worth much much more as they are different colourways to the released edition and much much rarer. An example would be the the different coloured versions Napalm that are AP only. ;D I know, but yet I can not help myself to see that as a run of test prints rather than AP ! Was it also a difference in the Mickey Mouse Button? |
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Ågentßacardi
Junior Member
Posts • 2,037
Likes • 16
September 2006
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Thoughts on APs, by Ågentßacardi on Apr 13, 2007 8:55:33 GMT 1, Wow, cheers for typing all that up ripper1331! Mighty helpful of ya!! ;D
Wow, cheers for typing all that up ripper1331! Mighty helpful of ya!! ;D
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neutral
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February 2007
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Thoughts on APs, by neutral on Apr 13, 2007 8:55:41 GMT 1, Just checked and it did not differ, yet the edition is with 2 color variation !!!
As well as a different AP.
No rules.
Just checked and it did not differ, yet the edition is with 2 color variation !!!
As well as a different AP.
No rules.
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Strange Al
Junior Member
Posts • 1,289
Likes • 59
October 2006
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Thoughts on APs, by Strange Al on Apr 13, 2007 9:10:47 GMT 1, Although I tend to hate getting involved in discussions on print values, I do think it's interesting to look at the historical significance of different types of proofs. I very much get the feeling that the Street Art market uses the terms in a different fashion to traditional fine art printers.
Historically the "Artist's Proof" (A/P) dates back to the time when
artists were commissioned to produce prints and were provided with lodging, expenses and a workshop. When the print run was completed, the artist be given a portion of the run, the "artist's proofs", to sell. Obviously, today artists are generally paid for their work - though the tradition has remained that a certain portion of the run is set aside for the artist to do with as they please.
Conflict "trial proofs", which traditionally are prints pulled before the final edition so that they can be checked by the artist and printer and adjustments made before the final edition is approved. By their nature trial proofs normally differ from the final edition and each other. A "Bon a Tirer Proof" is the final trial proof, which is approved by the artist and is how the edition should look.
"Printer's Proofs" are complimentary prints given to printers as a thank you for their services.
The international guilds often seek to limit the percentage of a print run which falls outside of the numbered edition. Though with small runs it's easily possible that there are as many proofs out there in the market as prints in the final numbered edition.
So where does this leave us with the practices of the current street art printers?
I'm guessing that they use this terminology only very loosely. For example, "Artist's Proof" often seems to be used instead of "Trial Proof". I'm sure many of us have received A/P's from print houses. Are these being sold on behalf of the artists or simply to squeeze a bit more money out of the edition and how many of them are there out there? Unless you're actually printing the prints, you're simply not going to know.
I therefore think it's incredibly difficult to asses the value of a "Proof" over something from the final edition. There's just far too many variables and which ones do you assign value to?
I can see how one of the varied Banksy Napalm's (i.e., the A/P or T/P, whichever term you prefer) is going to be more valuable than the original run. It's effectively a one-off. Though, why should a Printers Proof or Artist's Proof, which are effectively the same as the numbered run be worth any more? I can think of reasons for an against, but just don't think it gets you anywhere.
Ultimately, if you get a piece of art that evokes emotion in you and that you like looking at. That's what counts.
Although I tend to hate getting involved in discussions on print values, I do think it's interesting to look at the historical significance of different types of proofs. I very much get the feeling that the Street Art market uses the terms in a different fashion to traditional fine art printers.
Historically the "Artist's Proof" (A/P) dates back to the time when
artists were commissioned to produce prints and were provided with lodging, expenses and a workshop. When the print run was completed, the artist be given a portion of the run, the "artist's proofs", to sell. Obviously, today artists are generally paid for their work - though the tradition has remained that a certain portion of the run is set aside for the artist to do with as they please.
Conflict "trial proofs", which traditionally are prints pulled before the final edition so that they can be checked by the artist and printer and adjustments made before the final edition is approved. By their nature trial proofs normally differ from the final edition and each other. A "Bon a Tirer Proof" is the final trial proof, which is approved by the artist and is how the edition should look.
"Printer's Proofs" are complimentary prints given to printers as a thank you for their services.
The international guilds often seek to limit the percentage of a print run which falls outside of the numbered edition. Though with small runs it's easily possible that there are as many proofs out there in the market as prints in the final numbered edition.
So where does this leave us with the practices of the current street art printers?
I'm guessing that they use this terminology only very loosely. For example, "Artist's Proof" often seems to be used instead of "Trial Proof". I'm sure many of us have received A/P's from print houses. Are these being sold on behalf of the artists or simply to squeeze a bit more money out of the edition and how many of them are there out there? Unless you're actually printing the prints, you're simply not going to know.
I therefore think it's incredibly difficult to asses the value of a "Proof" over something from the final edition. There's just far too many variables and which ones do you assign value to?
I can see how one of the varied Banksy Napalm's (i.e., the A/P or T/P, whichever term you prefer) is going to be more valuable than the original run. It's effectively a one-off. Though, why should a Printers Proof or Artist's Proof, which are effectively the same as the numbered run be worth any more? I can think of reasons for an against, but just don't think it gets you anywhere.
Ultimately, if you get a piece of art that evokes emotion in you and that you like looking at. That's what counts.
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Ågentßacardi
Junior Member
Posts • 2,037
Likes • 16
September 2006
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Thoughts on APs, by Ågentßacardi on Apr 13, 2007 9:18:02 GMT 1, Bravo, jjoschi44! Thanks for that very informative post!! 
Bravo, jjoschi44! Thanks for that very informative post!! |
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Curley
Junior Member
Posts • 2,012
Likes • 7
June 2006
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Thoughts on APs, by Curley on Apr 13, 2007 9:34:44 GMT 1, There are of course Artist proofs that are worth much much more as they are different colourways to the released edition and much much rarer. An example would be the the different coloured versions Napalm that are AP only. ;D I know, but yet I can not help myself to see that as a run of test prints rather than AP ! Was it also a difference in the Mickey Mouse Button?
In effect that is what they are, test prints.
There are of course Artist proofs that are worth much much more as they are different colourways to the released edition and much much rarer. An example would be the the different coloured versions Napalm that are AP only. ;D I know, but yet I can not help myself to see that as a run of test prints rather than AP ! Was it also a difference in the Mickey Mouse Button? In effect that is what they are, test prints. |
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Thoughts on APs, by corblimeylimey on Apr 13, 2007 11:22:31 GMT 1, I know, but yet I can not help myself to see that as a run of test prints rather than AP ! Was it also a difference in the Mickey Mouse Button? In effect that is what they are, test prints.
Not always the case, sometimes the APs are just a few extra of the run, exactly the same in every way except for they have A/P written on instead of the number/run, and are just extras for the artists agent/gallery/artist themselves, in these cases there is mixed opinions for value ranging from the same as the run to 10-20% more.
I know, but yet I can not help myself to see that as a run of test prints rather than AP ! Was it also a difference in the Mickey Mouse Button? In effect that is what they are, test prints. Not always the case, sometimes the APs are just a few extra of the run, exactly the same in every way except for they have A/P written on instead of the number/run, and are just extras for the artists agent/gallery/artist themselves, in these cases there is mixed opinions for value ranging from the same as the run to 10-20% more. |
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slinkink
New Member
Posts • 95
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March 2007
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Thoughts on APs, by slinkink on Apr 13, 2007 15:09:59 GMT 1, so would i be right in summarising that signed edition numbered AP are basically worth the same or a little more than 'regular' signed numbered prints from the same edition, unless they are different in some way in which case they may be worth either less or more depending on what the difference is.
i have always been wary of prints that just say AP with no numbers though lots of people keep telling me that APs whether numbered or not are worth more... and a very few people that they are worth less.
all slightly confusing to the inexperienced collector so thank you very much for your thoughts and the excellent information supplied!
so would i be right in summarising that signed edition numbered AP are basically worth the same or a little more than 'regular' signed numbered prints from the same edition, unless they are different in some way in which case they may be worth either less or more depending on what the difference is.
i have always been wary of prints that just say AP with no numbers though lots of people keep telling me that APs whether numbered or not are worth more... and a very few people that they are worth less.
all slightly confusing to the inexperienced collector so thank you very much for your thoughts and the excellent information supplied!
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slinkink
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March 2007
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Thoughts on APs, by slinkink on Apr 13, 2007 15:13:24 GMT 1, how about this then....
if given the choice, for the same money, would you rather have...
a signed numbered regular x/150 print
or
a signed numbered x/15 AP
thanks in advance for your feedback
how about this then....
if given the choice, for the same money, would you rather have...
a signed numbered regular x/150 print
or
a signed numbered x/15 AP
thanks in advance for your feedback
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pjotr101
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May 2006
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Thoughts on APs, by pjotr101 on Apr 13, 2007 15:17:04 GMT 1, If the A/P is a different colourway (that doesn't look horrible), I would go for that.
If the A/P is a different colourway (that doesn't look horrible), I would go for that.
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Strange Al
Junior Member
Posts • 1,289
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October 2006
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Thoughts on APs, by Strange Al on Apr 13, 2007 15:33:56 GMT 1, so would i be right in summarising that signed edition numbered AP are basically worth the same or a little more than 'regular' signed numbered prints from the same edition, unless they are different in some way in which case they may be worth either less or more depending on what the difference is. i have always been wary of prints that just say AP with no numbers though lots of people keep telling me that APs whether numbered or not are worth more... and a very few people that they are worth less. all slightly confusing to the inexperienced collector so thank you very much for your thoughts and the excellent information supplied!
That position is basically correct.
I do think it's very interesting to note that the majority of people you've spoken have suggested that an AP is worth more, regardless of numbering. As you will have seen from my previous post, this is perhaps a little surprising given the inconsistency in the printing practices in the street art market and the history of APs. However, I think that your poll effectively answers your own question. IMO the current street art market (at least at print level - i.e., not for originals) is quite different from traditional art markets. In assessing value, people have to factor variables which are just not present in the more traditional fine art markets. In this market, if the pervading opinion is that an AP is more valuable, which appears to be the case from your straw poll, then I think they'll sell for slightly more.
I'm differentiating APs from Trial Proofs.
so would i be right in summarising that signed edition numbered AP are basically worth the same or a little more than 'regular' signed numbered prints from the same edition, unless they are different in some way in which case they may be worth either less or more depending on what the difference is. i have always been wary of prints that just say AP with no numbers though lots of people keep telling me that APs whether numbered or not are worth more... and a very few people that they are worth less. all slightly confusing to the inexperienced collector so thank you very much for your thoughts and the excellent information supplied! That position is basically correct. I do think it's very interesting to note that the majority of people you've spoken have suggested that an AP is worth more, regardless of numbering. As you will have seen from my previous post, this is perhaps a little surprising given the inconsistency in the printing practices in the street art market and the history of APs. However, I think that your poll effectively answers your own question. IMO the current street art market (at least at print level - i.e., not for originals) is quite different from traditional art markets. In assessing value, people have to factor variables which are just not present in the more traditional fine art markets. In this market, if the pervading opinion is that an AP is more valuable, which appears to be the case from your straw poll, then I think they'll sell for slightly more. I'm differentiating APs from Trial Proofs. |
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bibop
New Member
Posts • 41
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October 2006
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Thoughts on APs, by bibop on Apr 14, 2007 22:48:25 GMT 1, The numbering/edition sizes are definitly confusing. According to the quote from ripper1331 (thanx), the Banksy LA prints printed in the US should be differently numbered from the ones printed by POW as it is different paper. Also the morons have different colors (no gold frame).
But as for value, its definitly what the market values most that are the most valuable. Personally I wouldnt care.
The numbering/edition sizes are definitly confusing. According to the quote from ripper1331 (thanx), the Banksy LA prints printed in the US should be differently numbered from the ones printed by POW as it is different paper. Also the morons have different colors (no gold frame).
But as for value, its definitly what the market values most that are the most valuable. Personally I wouldnt care.
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Ågentßacardi
Junior Member
Posts • 2,037
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September 2006
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Thoughts on APs, by Ågentßacardi on Apr 14, 2007 22:58:02 GMT 1, The numbering/edition sizes are definitly confusing. According to the quote from ripper1331 (thanx), the Banksy LA prints printed in the US should be differently numbered from the ones printed by POW as it is different paper. Also the morons have different colors (no gold frame). But as for value, its definitly what the market values most that are the most valuable. Personally I wouldnt care.
Yep, I agree... if they wanted all 500 to be in the same edition run, then the prints released by POW should've been identical to the LA ones. But that's not the case unfortunately POW has never been known for their consistency.
The numbering/edition sizes are definitly confusing. According to the quote from ripper1331 (thanx), the Banksy LA prints printed in the US should be differently numbered from the ones printed by POW as it is different paper. Also the morons have different colors (no gold frame). But as for value, its definitly what the market values most that are the most valuable. Personally I wouldnt care. Yep, I agree... if they wanted all 500 to be in the same edition run, then the prints released by POW should've been identical to the LA ones. But that's not the case unfortunately POW has never been known for their consistency. |
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BK83
Junior Member
Posts • 1,604
Likes • 10
October 2006
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Thoughts on APs, by BK83 on Apr 14, 2007 23:03:19 GMT 1, The numbering/edition sizes are definitly confusing. According to the quote from ripper1331 (thanx), the Banksy LA prints printed in the US should be differently numbered from the ones printed by POW as it is different paper. Also the morons have different colors (no gold frame). But as for value, its definitly what the market values most that are the most valuable. Personally I wouldnt care.
That's quite an important distinction that you make there, bibop. POW/Lazarides/banksy made some obvious mistakes with regards to print edition ettiquette in the case of the LA prints. It will be interesting when trollies finally comes out. There is speculation that it will be a full color colorway, and if so would deem the entire run incorrect as 100prints of the edition have been sold in the black and white colorway already at the LA show.
in saying that, it makes me think that maybe POW will do something similiar to what was done with morons. Maybe they will finish the trollies print edition in black and white and release a full color colorway as its own edition of 300 or so like the sepia Morons run.
I hop that post makes sense -- I'm still hungover from last night I think...?
J
The numbering/edition sizes are definitly confusing. According to the quote from ripper1331 (thanx), the Banksy LA prints printed in the US should be differently numbered from the ones printed by POW as it is different paper. Also the morons have different colors (no gold frame). But as for value, its definitly what the market values most that are the most valuable. Personally I wouldnt care. That's quite an important distinction that you make there, bibop. POW/Lazarides/banksy made some obvious mistakes with regards to print edition ettiquette in the case of the LA prints. It will be interesting when trollies finally comes out. There is speculation that it will be a full color colorway, and if so would deem the entire run incorrect as 100prints of the edition have been sold in the black and white colorway already at the LA show. in saying that, it makes me think that maybe POW will do something similiar to what was done with morons. Maybe they will finish the trollies print edition in black and white and release a full color colorway as its own edition of 300 or so like the sepia Morons run. I hop that post makes sense -- I'm still hungover from last night I think...? J |
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Ågentßacardi
Junior Member
Posts • 2,037
Likes • 16
September 2006
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Thoughts on APs, by Ågentßacardi on Apr 14, 2007 23:38:30 GMT 1, That's quite an important distinction that you make there, bibop. POW/Lazarides/banksy made some obvious mistakes with regards to print edition ettiquette in the case of the LA prints. It will be interesting when trollies finally comes out. There is speculation that it will be a full color colorway, and if so would deem the entire run incorrect as 100prints of the edition have been sold in the black and white colorway already at the LA show. in saying that, it makes me think that maybe POW will do something similiar to what was done with morons. Maybe they will finish the trollies print edition in black and white and release a full color colorway as its own edition of 300 or so like the sepia Morons run. I hop that post makes sense -- I'm still hungover from last night I think...? J
That's exactly what I'm thinking, J! ;D The remainder of the unsigned edition of 500 will be in black and white (although the handles of the trollies should be red like they are in the LA version), while a separate run of perhaps 300 will be in color and signed à la sepia morons.
I shudder to think how brutal that bunfight will be! 
That's quite an important distinction that you make there, bibop. POW/Lazarides/banksy made some obvious mistakes with regards to print edition ettiquette in the case of the LA prints. It will be interesting when trollies finally comes out. There is speculation that it will be a full color colorway, and if so would deem the entire run incorrect as 100prints of the edition have been sold in the black and white colorway already at the LA show. in saying that, it makes me think that maybe POW will do something similiar to what was done with morons. Maybe they will finish the trollies print edition in black and white and release a full color colorway as its own edition of 300 or so like the sepia Morons run. I hop that post makes sense -- I'm still hungover from last night I think...? J That's exactly what I'm thinking, J! ;D The remainder of the unsigned edition of 500 will be in black and white (although the handles of the trollies should be red like they are in the LA version), while a separate run of perhaps 300 will be in color and signed à la sepia morons. I shudder to think how brutal that bunfight will be! |
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slinkink
New Member
Posts • 95
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March 2007
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Thoughts on APs, by slinkink on Apr 15, 2007 1:04:04 GMT 1, seems the 'etiquette' for the morons print runs wasn't obeyed with regards the US/UK versions but surely banksy would have been the one to suggest/decide/agree/whatever that the pow released ones would be different (gold picture frame change etc).
therefore pow print what mr b wants them to. the print house doesn't have the authority to change an artists work.
otherwise it would make a whole mockery of the work being a true banksy.
no?
seems the 'etiquette' for the morons print runs wasn't obeyed with regards the US/UK versions but surely banksy would have been the one to suggest/decide/agree/whatever that the pow released ones would be different (gold picture frame change etc).
therefore pow print what mr b wants them to. the print house doesn't have the authority to change an artists work.
otherwise it would make a whole mockery of the work being a true banksy.
no?
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