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Is tagging the same as dogs pissing up lamposts, by thebleedingedge on Jun 18, 2008 17:24:37 GMT 1, Hurt you bad is a pretty good site. When they use the term artfag it is just taking the piss really as a lot of them have "artfag" friends, some of them will do traditional art, go to traditional gallery shows and have gallery owner friends. There is this segmentation between the two camps, I always feel like I'm stuck in the middle of both. It's all just a tool, it's all just expression at the end of the day, be it someone writing their pseudonym on a tube station, hitting a central line train panels or pasting up an amusing take on a pollitical issue. It just seems that when we do it soley for money and we mimmick advertising, but not for the purpose of culture jamming then a lot is lost and we end up becoming... the enemy. A lot of it is down to motivation for me.
There is no real difference between the two camps other than maybe the intended audience. Street artists do themselves a big favour by understanding graffiti, there are a lot of roads that have been walked before you, efficiency in delivery, execution and graff heads can do themselves a lot of good by using this new audience to say something different, which can give them that contrast with everyone else that some of them are looking for (not all though).
You should all try it. There is nothing that says I am not apart of the system like sneaking around at night like a Ninja writing your name on shit, it's fun, it's cheeky as all fuck and it will get you some cheap fame. Once you try it once you'll either be bitten by the bug and see it as a challenge to write more of them, in harder to reach places or you'll start looking at tags and throws with a certain respect, the same way I might look at Monet's brush techniques, especially when you see a tag in the middle of a bridge or on the roof of a high street shop, you'll learn the city inside out and it will juice you for whatever creative pursuits you take on in real life. There are no age limits, race constraints, you can be either sex (sorry you can't be an hermaphrodite, cuz that's just a bit weird), you can be about the asthetic of a tag (mmm www.flickr.com/photos/rojotelefono/2224213488/ ) or you can be about getting more of an efficient ugly tag EVERYWHERE. Spotting tags is just as addicitve and putting them up, once you start putting artist identities with their vandal ones, the city becomes one big doodle pad adventure.
Hurt you bad is a pretty good site. When they use the term artfag it is just taking the piss really as a lot of them have "artfag" friends, some of them will do traditional art, go to traditional gallery shows and have gallery owner friends. There is this segmentation between the two camps, I always feel like I'm stuck in the middle of both. It's all just a tool, it's all just expression at the end of the day, be it someone writing their pseudonym on a tube station, hitting a central line train panels or pasting up an amusing take on a pollitical issue. It just seems that when we do it soley for money and we mimmick advertising, but not for the purpose of culture jamming then a lot is lost and we end up becoming... the enemy. A lot of it is down to motivation for me. There is no real difference between the two camps other than maybe the intended audience. Street artists do themselves a big favour by understanding graffiti, there are a lot of roads that have been walked before you, efficiency in delivery, execution and graff heads can do themselves a lot of good by using this new audience to say something different, which can give them that contrast with everyone else that some of them are looking for (not all though). You should all try it. There is nothing that says I am not apart of the system like sneaking around at night like a Ninja writing your name on shit, it's fun, it's cheeky as all fuck and it will get you some cheap fame. Once you try it once you'll either be bitten by the bug and see it as a challenge to write more of them, in harder to reach places or you'll start looking at tags and throws with a certain respect, the same way I might look at Monet's brush techniques, especially when you see a tag in the middle of a bridge or on the roof of a high street shop, you'll learn the city inside out and it will juice you for whatever creative pursuits you take on in real life. There are no age limits, race constraints, you can be either sex (sorry you can't be an hermaphrodite, cuz that's just a bit weird), you can be about the asthetic of a tag (mmm www.flickr.com/photos/rojotelefono/2224213488/ ) or you can be about getting more of an efficient ugly tag EVERYWHERE. Spotting tags is just as addicitve and putting them up, once you start putting artist identities with their vandal ones, the city becomes one big doodle pad adventure.
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Is tagging the same as dogs pissing up lamposts, by thebleedingedge on Jun 18, 2008 17:43:33 GMT 1, Oh and respect the flares, those are those tags where the writer has a fat cap or ultrafat on a spraycan and the tag goes from thin and opaque at the bottom of the letters to fat and semi transparent at the top, those are all about flow, panik will probably be teaching courses in those at some art college in ten years.
Oh and respect the flares, those are those tags where the writer has a fat cap or ultrafat on a spraycan and the tag goes from thin and opaque at the bottom of the letters to fat and semi transparent at the top, those are all about flow, panik will probably be teaching courses in those at some art college in ten years.
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Avian Security
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Is tagging the same as dogs pissing up lamposts, by Avian Security on Jun 18, 2008 20:33:30 GMT 1, Some of the fat cap ones look nice, have to hand it to you there.
Some of the fat cap ones look nice, have to hand it to you there.
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chablis
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Is tagging the same as dogs pissing up lamposts, by chablis on Jun 18, 2008 22:53:25 GMT 1, Myself, I'm not impressed by tagging and the very same analogy as the thread title had already occurred to me.
I enjoy art on the street, but see no beauty in tagging, it seems if it moves tag it, if it doesn't move, tag it again. Someone explain the merit of scratching your tag into a bus window, please don't try to tell me that is anything but criminal damage.
Art on the street can bring humour or hope, it can inspire or brighten a day, it is not intended to create misery, tagging is just about claiming a space.
Myself, I'm not impressed by tagging and the very same analogy as the thread title had already occurred to me.
I enjoy art on the street, but see no beauty in tagging, it seems if it moves tag it, if it doesn't move, tag it again. Someone explain the merit of scratching your tag into a bus window, please don't try to tell me that is anything but criminal damage.
Art on the street can bring humour or hope, it can inspire or brighten a day, it is not intended to create misery, tagging is just about claiming a space.
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Avian Security
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Is tagging the same as dogs pissing up lamposts, by Avian Security on Jun 18, 2008 23:43:16 GMT 1, I thought the bleedingedge explained it pretty well, you aren't supposed to see the beauty in it, it's not looking to please you. I'm kind of warming to the whole idea, but i don't know what my tag should be. I was thinking 'artfag', comments welcome.
I thought the bleedingedge explained it pretty well, you aren't supposed to see the beauty in it, it's not looking to please you. I'm kind of warming to the whole idea, but i don't know what my tag should be. I was thinking 'artfag', comments welcome.
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Is tagging the same as dogs pissing up lamposts, by cashman on Jun 19, 2008 0:06:46 GMT 1, tagging is just about claiming a space.
isnt that the point ??
tagging is just about claiming a space. isnt that the point ??
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bmjt
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Is tagging the same as dogs pissing up lamposts, by bmjt on Jun 19, 2008 1:31:29 GMT 1, Many writers believe tagging can perform an important personal social tool, ie. as people have already said, claiming public space as their own, but also as a negotiation of identity within the social sphere. Providing a physical, material presence in the built environment with some degree of permanence. For the un-knowing viewer, in the classic sense, tags represent signs of decay and are seen as pre-cursors of more crime and public disregard toward an area, which breeds more crime etc. eg. Broken Windows theory, whether true or not isn't totally clear, but regardless of this, the fear of more crime remains and it's pretty impossible to shift this label.
On an artistic level many tags do have an inherent skill, and the more you see and invest a few moments in to appreciate, the more likely you are to see a difference between a quick scrawl and a skilled composition.
Sadly you are always going to get the less skilled writers, such as 'norm' and 'yuck' who can be seen throughout Bristol, which to be honest, even though I am really open and compassionate toward steet art and it's meanings, I find really annoying and sad to see. I can totally understand why someone would just go ballistic seeing that written on the outside of their shop every time it gets painted over, it's just ignorant and unfair.
There is of course far more to this argument than I can face writing here, just hope what i've said makes sense.
Many writers believe tagging can perform an important personal social tool, ie. as people have already said, claiming public space as their own, but also as a negotiation of identity within the social sphere. Providing a physical, material presence in the built environment with some degree of permanence. For the un-knowing viewer, in the classic sense, tags represent signs of decay and are seen as pre-cursors of more crime and public disregard toward an area, which breeds more crime etc. eg. Broken Windows theory, whether true or not isn't totally clear, but regardless of this, the fear of more crime remains and it's pretty impossible to shift this label.
On an artistic level many tags do have an inherent skill, and the more you see and invest a few moments in to appreciate, the more likely you are to see a difference between a quick scrawl and a skilled composition.
Sadly you are always going to get the less skilled writers, such as 'norm' and 'yuck' who can be seen throughout Bristol, which to be honest, even though I am really open and compassionate toward steet art and it's meanings, I find really annoying and sad to see. I can totally understand why someone would just go ballistic seeing that written on the outside of their shop every time it gets painted over, it's just ignorant and unfair.
There is of course far more to this argument than I can face writing here, just hope what i've said makes sense.
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Is tagging the same as dogs pissing up lamposts, by thebleedingedge on Jun 19, 2008 3:32:34 GMT 1, Myself, I'm not impressed by tagging and the very same analogy as the thread title had already occurred to me. I enjoy art on the street, but see no beauty in tagging, it seems if it moves tag it, if it doesn't move, tag it again. Someone explain the merit of scratching your tag into a bus window, please don't try to tell me that is anything but criminal damage. Art on the street can bring humour or hope, it can inspire or brighten a day, it is not intended to create misery, tagging is just about claiming a space.
I think tagging is an aquired taste, and I think some of it comes from asthetic or technique but some comes from the concept of turning your cold dreary city into a playground, the same way that cold slabs of grey concrete get transformed into structures of endless creative possibility if you get into skating, it's all about that play element to me.
Interesting you mention window etching because that sort of thing has a very strong link to the likes of street artists like banksy. It's part of that cat and mouse game, writers get better ink, city gets better chemicals to buff with. Etching was a natural progression to get up against the system just like banksy's use of stencil was a natural progression to get pieces up in places more efficiently for the same reason, examine the messages of a banksy and the mindset of the person who did the etching of that ugly tag.. "take this society", "because I'm worthless" etc. They both come from the same line of thought, the same pursuit, the same game, it just so happens that the ugly tag is ugly and it's main function is to stay up on that window for a longer period of time where as the Banksy stencil is about not spending too much time on the application of the image so you can just repeat it if it does get buffed too fast which gives the guy more room to play with subject matter that can make you smile and therefor you will be more receptive to ask the questions and absorb the message.
I can't say it is not criminal damage, because that's exactly what it is, it's vandalism just like the nice pretty pieces that bring a smile to your face. Ridiculous? Silly? EXACTLY. The reason you got that evolution from the ugly tags to the pieces to make YOU smile, is because people might have wanted to point some of this out to YOU. That's the world we live in, hipocracy around every corner asking these questions is easy with art, that's the nice thing about it, asking this of our false constructs around us like money, control, borders or laws vs morals is where it really gets scary. Is it a destructive act? Are cities wonderous creations or just destroying the earth beneath? Sometimes in order to progress you need to take a step backwards and people who understand why a tag exists and why it is important might be able to keep the progression in the game and move it to the next level, which in the end will mean the high level pieces aimed at you as the intended audience.
Why keep a Banksy and not a tag? Asthetic value? What if I like the tag better? What is the difference really... and the answer is the one was made to be easily digestible and the other wasn't. We don't need to vote on what to keep and what not to (we'd just end up back with grey walls anyway), it's democratic already in that anyone with the balls to step over that line can do whatever they want anyway because it is illegal.
Quick side note though, why is it that the pieces have to make people smile? Surely if we have moved on to calling this thing art, which it is, there is room for the entire range of human emotions.
I don't think it's claiming a physical space, I think of it as claiming a place in a hierarchy (like bmjt said) but that is just one aspect of it. I t probably is a lot like a dog pissing on a lamppost, but then again so is buying a yellow porshe, that's the way people are, that's why Seen was doing tight outlines and it's why Michaelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel. People seek that place in the sub culture hierarchy but I think with sub cultures people who rise to the top can be appreciated by the mainstream.
The broken window theory is broken. It's almost as if they are saying that a false sense of control will make me feel safe, the people who want to control my perception of the world are the ones who scare me. I know they don't have control because I see it and thank god for that little bit of honesty. I know they can't tell me the public transport system is 100% safe from terrorism because a 15 year old got into the best protected yard and covered it in paint. You must know by now that graffiti is not a violent thing, if it was then these people would be breaking windows instead of painting on them.
I say cover the cities with paint, I don't care how and with what, who gives a shit, they're grey now, cold and uniform... anything is better than that. Remember vandalism doesn't cost the city anything, it's the cleaning up that eats up your tax money.
Myself, I'm not impressed by tagging and the very same analogy as the thread title had already occurred to me. I enjoy art on the street, but see no beauty in tagging, it seems if it moves tag it, if it doesn't move, tag it again. Someone explain the merit of scratching your tag into a bus window, please don't try to tell me that is anything but criminal damage. Art on the street can bring humour or hope, it can inspire or brighten a day, it is not intended to create misery, tagging is just about claiming a space. I think tagging is an aquired taste, and I think some of it comes from asthetic or technique but some comes from the concept of turning your cold dreary city into a playground, the same way that cold slabs of grey concrete get transformed into structures of endless creative possibility if you get into skating, it's all about that play element to me. Interesting you mention window etching because that sort of thing has a very strong link to the likes of street artists like banksy. It's part of that cat and mouse game, writers get better ink, city gets better chemicals to buff with. Etching was a natural progression to get up against the system just like banksy's use of stencil was a natural progression to get pieces up in places more efficiently for the same reason, examine the messages of a banksy and the mindset of the person who did the etching of that ugly tag.. "take this society", "because I'm worthless" etc. They both come from the same line of thought, the same pursuit, the same game, it just so happens that the ugly tag is ugly and it's main function is to stay up on that window for a longer period of time where as the Banksy stencil is about not spending too much time on the application of the image so you can just repeat it if it does get buffed too fast which gives the guy more room to play with subject matter that can make you smile and therefor you will be more receptive to ask the questions and absorb the message. I can't say it is not criminal damage, because that's exactly what it is, it's vandalism just like the nice pretty pieces that bring a smile to your face. Ridiculous? Silly? EXACTLY. The reason you got that evolution from the ugly tags to the pieces to make YOU smile, is because people might have wanted to point some of this out to YOU. That's the world we live in, hipocracy around every corner asking these questions is easy with art, that's the nice thing about it, asking this of our false constructs around us like money, control, borders or laws vs morals is where it really gets scary. Is it a destructive act? Are cities wonderous creations or just destroying the earth beneath? Sometimes in order to progress you need to take a step backwards and people who understand why a tag exists and why it is important might be able to keep the progression in the game and move it to the next level, which in the end will mean the high level pieces aimed at you as the intended audience. Why keep a Banksy and not a tag? Asthetic value? What if I like the tag better? What is the difference really... and the answer is the one was made to be easily digestible and the other wasn't. We don't need to vote on what to keep and what not to (we'd just end up back with grey walls anyway), it's democratic already in that anyone with the balls to step over that line can do whatever they want anyway because it is illegal. Quick side note though, why is it that the pieces have to make people smile? Surely if we have moved on to calling this thing art, which it is, there is room for the entire range of human emotions. I don't think it's claiming a physical space, I think of it as claiming a place in a hierarchy (like bmjt said) but that is just one aspect of it. I t probably is a lot like a dog pissing on a lamppost, but then again so is buying a yellow porshe, that's the way people are, that's why Seen was doing tight outlines and it's why Michaelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel. People seek that place in the sub culture hierarchy but I think with sub cultures people who rise to the top can be appreciated by the mainstream. The broken window theory is broken. It's almost as if they are saying that a false sense of control will make me feel safe, the people who want to control my perception of the world are the ones who scare me. I know they don't have control because I see it and thank god for that little bit of honesty. I know they can't tell me the public transport system is 100% safe from terrorism because a 15 year old got into the best protected yard and covered it in paint. You must know by now that graffiti is not a violent thing, if it was then these people would be breaking windows instead of painting on them. I say cover the cities with paint, I don't care how and with what, who gives a shit, they're grey now, cold and uniform... anything is better than that. Remember vandalism doesn't cost the city anything, it's the cleaning up that eats up your tax money.
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Is tagging the same as dogs pissing up lamposts, by thebleedingedge on Jun 19, 2008 17:29:36 GMT 1, Quick tid bit: Like OBEY? If you walk down Brick Lane, near the bridge you can see a bin with Cinnimon tagged on it in blue, Shepard Fairy did that in November last year. You can also tell a lot about the guy's progression from the handstyle, he has a classical but ledgible style (spikey curvey letters but broken apart to make it more readable to your average joe). To me that says everything, it says he got into the game and ended up writing enough to make that style second nature but he progressed to a more ledgible way of using that style in order to speak to regular people.
It's all or nothing.
Quick tid bit: Like OBEY? If you walk down Brick Lane, near the bridge you can see a bin with Cinnimon tagged on it in blue, Shepard Fairy did that in November last year. You can also tell a lot about the guy's progression from the handstyle, he has a classical but ledgible style (spikey curvey letters but broken apart to make it more readable to your average joe). To me that says everything, it says he got into the game and ended up writing enough to make that style second nature but he progressed to a more ledgible way of using that style in order to speak to regular people.
It's all or nothing.
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mcster
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Is tagging the same as dogs pissing up lamposts, by mcster on Jun 21, 2008 12:02:26 GMT 1, I see some fantastic tags and some awful ones, but I do respect a lot of taggers, Cosa for instance, for just how many they get up, how well they repeat the tag/dub and the places they get them. Ben Eine used to do that tag that looked like an 'S' and 'B' joined together that looked like a face (I think his old tag may have been 'Sabo' or something like that). I saw that repeated all over London for years, each time the same as the last. It was seeing that image so often that reignighted my interest in all this, after spending the late 80's and early 90's wandering around warehouses in a Chemical haze. Maybe tagging is pissing up lamposts, but I suppose the question is whether that is such a bad thing? I don't agree with tagging private property, but public property belongs to all of us and that includes taggers I s'pose..
I see some fantastic tags and some awful ones, but I do respect a lot of taggers, Cosa for instance, for just how many they get up, how well they repeat the tag/dub and the places they get them. Ben Eine used to do that tag that looked like an 'S' and 'B' joined together that looked like a face (I think his old tag may have been 'Sabo' or something like that). I saw that repeated all over London for years, each time the same as the last. It was seeing that image so often that reignighted my interest in all this, after spending the late 80's and early 90's wandering around warehouses in a Chemical haze. Maybe tagging is pissing up lamposts, but I suppose the question is whether that is such a bad thing? I don't agree with tagging private property, but public property belongs to all of us and that includes taggers I s'pose..
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chablis
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Is tagging the same as dogs pissing up lamposts, by chablis on Jul 5, 2008 11:37:29 GMT 1, Thank you to all those constructive responses to my post, I went on holiday immediately after I posted, so am just catching up.
I acknowledge all of the comments and am unable really to shoot any of them down, lets just say that at times they manage to invoke the negative emotion, buts that a lot more due to my perception of them being sometimes intrusive, sometimes excessive and occaisionally a blight.
So the answer to the post is yes, but if you understand why dogs do it, then you will understand taggers ;-)
Thank you to all those constructive responses to my post, I went on holiday immediately after I posted, so am just catching up.
I acknowledge all of the comments and am unable really to shoot any of them down, lets just say that at times they manage to invoke the negative emotion, buts that a lot more due to my perception of them being sometimes intrusive, sometimes excessive and occaisionally a blight.
So the answer to the post is yes, but if you understand why dogs do it, then you will understand taggers ;-)
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Is tagging the same as dogs pissing up lamposts, by Guest on Jul 6, 2008 15:43:51 GMT 1, Great comments on this thread. Probably one of the most constructive that I've seen here in a while.
I'm not an artist, so I won't comment on the ethics of the whole thing. I do think that all public expression has it's place, and I also think that the evolution of the genre depends on people constantly getting up wherever they can get away with it. I don't think there is as much of a separation between "street art" and "graffiti" as alot of the newly minted "street artists" might like to think. Particularly the ones who don't have a history in Graffiti. You've gotta put in the time, and pay your dues on the street to be worthwhile.
One thing that is extremely important that I've noticed: Every top-notch contemporary "street artist" who has become successful in the fine art world has a history in Graffiti. This includes Twist, Parla, KAWS, SABER, Banksy and countless others. There are skills that you learn in the field that you can't learn anywhere else. I can only think of a couple representational street artist's who've reached that upper echelon in the art world without starting with a marker or a can and working their way up: Ron English, and SWOON come to mind immediately. Ron comes from a background in photography, and SWOON has a more traditional fine art background.
I posted this on the SABER thread the other day, but I think it has some validity here as well. He has some really insightful things to say here about the perceived difference between Graffiti and Street Art...
Great comments on this thread. Probably one of the most constructive that I've seen here in a while.
I'm not an artist, so I won't comment on the ethics of the whole thing. I do think that all public expression has it's place, and I also think that the evolution of the genre depends on people constantly getting up wherever they can get away with it. I don't think there is as much of a separation between "street art" and "graffiti" as alot of the newly minted "street artists" might like to think. Particularly the ones who don't have a history in Graffiti. You've gotta put in the time, and pay your dues on the street to be worthwhile.
One thing that is extremely important that I've noticed: Every top-notch contemporary "street artist" who has become successful in the fine art world has a history in Graffiti. This includes Twist, Parla, KAWS, SABER, Banksy and countless others. There are skills that you learn in the field that you can't learn anywhere else. I can only think of a couple representational street artist's who've reached that upper echelon in the art world without starting with a marker or a can and working their way up: Ron English, and SWOON come to mind immediately. Ron comes from a background in photography, and SWOON has a more traditional fine art background.
I posted this on the SABER thread the other day, but I think it has some validity here as well. He has some really insightful things to say here about the perceived difference between Graffiti and Street Art...
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Avian Security
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Is tagging the same as dogs pissing up lamposts, by Avian Security on Jul 6, 2008 21:50:43 GMT 1, "kids are always looking for the next gimmick, the next stencil"
It might be true that the kind of public art people on this forum admire wouldn't exist without 30 years of writers doing their thing. In fact it is true. It's also true that dedicated writers develop their styles over years and some of them do some incredible pieces. What isn't true, as Saber seems to imply, is that if you don't come from that background, you aren't keeping it real. Some of what he says makes sense, about enjoying the creative act and developing your style, but that doesn't mean you have to use freestyle sprayed lettering and characters. Look at Brazilian street art, it's evolved largely independently of that whole scene, and as a result it's not restricted, it's unbelievably varied and creative and original. His message is not inclusive and welcoming, it's judgemental, he seems to be assuming that everyone who isn't in HIS scene doing the same kind of shit HE does is just out to make a buck, which is just bullsh1t. Or did I misunderstand what he was saying?
"kids are always looking for the next gimmick, the next stencil"
It might be true that the kind of public art people on this forum admire wouldn't exist without 30 years of writers doing their thing. In fact it is true. It's also true that dedicated writers develop their styles over years and some of them do some incredible pieces. What isn't true, as Saber seems to imply, is that if you don't come from that background, you aren't keeping it real. Some of what he says makes sense, about enjoying the creative act and developing your style, but that doesn't mean you have to use freestyle sprayed lettering and characters. Look at Brazilian street art, it's evolved largely independently of that whole scene, and as a result it's not restricted, it's unbelievably varied and creative and original. His message is not inclusive and welcoming, it's judgemental, he seems to be assuming that everyone who isn't in HIS scene doing the same kind of shit HE does is just out to make a buck, which is just bullsh1t. Or did I misunderstand what he was saying?
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Is tagging the same as dogs pissing up lamposts, by Guest on Jul 7, 2008 18:39:51 GMT 1, "kids are always looking for the next gimmick, the next stencil" It might be true that the kind of public art people on this forum admire wouldn't exist without 30 years of writers doing their thing. In fact it is true. It's also true that dedicated writers develop their styles over years and some of them do some incredible pieces. What isn't true, as Saber seems to imply, is that if you don't come from that background, you aren't keeping it real. Some of what he says makes sense, about enjoying the creative act and developing your style, but that doesn't mean you have to use freestyle sprayed lettering and characters. Look at Brazilian street art, it's evolved largely independently of that whole scene, and as a result it's not restricted, it's unbelievably varied and creative and original. His message is not inclusive and welcoming, it's judgemental, he seems to be assuming that everyone who isn't in HIS scene doing the same kind of s**t HE does is just out to make a buck, which is just bullsh1t. Or did I misunderstand what he was saying?
A couple of points in reply:
He never said you have to be a writer to be a legitimate artist. He has been getting up with all kinds of styles from all kinds of artist's on the street, from all around the world.
Have you been to Brazil? Are you telling me that the top Brazilians aren't out tagging everywhere they can and have been doing so for decades? C'mon. Street Art has evolved from Writing in the same ways everywhere in the world. It may not be what has received the most attention over the past few years, but the vast majority of artist's in Brazil are still purely writers.
His message isn't supposed to be inclusive and welcoming. Street Art is not all wine and roses, especially in LA.
Alot of this is about your sphere of influence; which in Brighton is pretty chill. I am confident saying you would probably get killed if you were wandering around the LA River with your stencils, unless you had a Known writer by your side to vouch for you...
I'm not going to put words in anyone's mouth, but from the conversations that I've had with Saber, I can say he has more respect for the accomplished artist's than anyone I know, regardless of style or what tools they use. If it's good, it's good, and it takes years and thousands of pieces to be good...
We've seen it here all too often. I've seen kids who have been making street art for a year or two come on here with limited editions. I'm sorry but in my opinion you've gotta work up to that to do it right.
There is a lineage, a heritage, and a legacy that must be respected and followed.
Respect; it's simple.
"kids are always looking for the next gimmick, the next stencil" It might be true that the kind of public art people on this forum admire wouldn't exist without 30 years of writers doing their thing. In fact it is true. It's also true that dedicated writers develop their styles over years and some of them do some incredible pieces. What isn't true, as Saber seems to imply, is that if you don't come from that background, you aren't keeping it real. Some of what he says makes sense, about enjoying the creative act and developing your style, but that doesn't mean you have to use freestyle sprayed lettering and characters. Look at Brazilian street art, it's evolved largely independently of that whole scene, and as a result it's not restricted, it's unbelievably varied and creative and original. His message is not inclusive and welcoming, it's judgemental, he seems to be assuming that everyone who isn't in HIS scene doing the same kind of s**t HE does is just out to make a buck, which is just bullsh1t. Or did I misunderstand what he was saying? A couple of points in reply: He never said you have to be a writer to be a legitimate artist. He has been getting up with all kinds of styles from all kinds of artist's on the street, from all around the world. Have you been to Brazil? Are you telling me that the top Brazilians aren't out tagging everywhere they can and have been doing so for decades? C'mon. Street Art has evolved from Writing in the same ways everywhere in the world. It may not be what has received the most attention over the past few years, but the vast majority of artist's in Brazil are still purely writers. His message isn't supposed to be inclusive and welcoming. Street Art is not all wine and roses, especially in LA. Alot of this is about your sphere of influence; which in Brighton is pretty chill. I am confident saying you would probably get killed if you were wandering around the LA River with your stencils, unless you had a Known writer by your side to vouch for you... I'm not going to put words in anyone's mouth, but from the conversations that I've had with Saber, I can say he has more respect for the accomplished artist's than anyone I know, regardless of style or what tools they use. If it's good, it's good, and it takes years and thousands of pieces to be good... We've seen it here all too often. I've seen kids who have been making street art for a year or two come on here with limited editions. I'm sorry but in my opinion you've gotta work up to that to do it right. There is a lineage, a heritage, and a legacy that must be respected and followed. Respect; it's simple.
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Avian Security
Artist
New Member
Posts โข 495
Likes โข 2
November 2007
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Is tagging the same as dogs pissing up lamposts, by Avian Security on Jul 7, 2008 19:05:43 GMT 1, I will be avoiding the LA river area.
I will be avoiding the LA river area.
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Is tagging the same as dogs pissing up lamposts, by orangematt on Jul 7, 2008 19:31:12 GMT 1, Its this attitude of exclusivity and non inclusiveness that allways really pissed me off about the Art 'world' -- now we get the same clique attitude from 'street' / 'graff' artists ... i believe in the ethic of punk through and through .. we are all artists .. i dont have to do what you do to be included in your 'gang' .. its bullshit man , a continuation of school teachers telling you you cant do that cos you aint good enough or saying you cant draw cos that doesnt look like a vase of flowers ... all designed to disempower the individual .. we can all draw , we are all artists ,, if you can shit /if you can spit / if you can scrub a pen up and down on any medium be it paper or concrete then YOU are an artist and YOU have every right in the world to do that , to make that mark .. no-one else can do what you do.... thats what 'street art ' should be about ... that comment about 'you would probably be killed walking around LA' what a stupid fucked up thing to say !! is that meant to be a good thing - to make yall feel hard ! all that says to me is that thuggery, brutality and violence is considered right in that world !! what a crock of shit ! We all have the right to do what we want when we want and if that gets you killed in LA then what a bunch of meat heads that place must be full of... isnt it bad enough that society is enforced by thugs with guns called the 'police' - the streets there are also full of 'laws' enforced with guns (or violence) by its own citizens ! and i take it from the comment by its own 'writers' you arent 'allowed' to write unless a 'respected writer ' is 'holding your hand' !!!! laughable. as far as i am concerned you could be a kid or you could be a pensioner - the second you make a mark on the world ( be it a canvas or a wall ) with pen/pencil/paint or whatever , you have my respect . just dont go over someone elses work without their permission!!
Its this attitude of exclusivity and non inclusiveness that allways really pissed me off about the Art 'world' -- now we get the same clique attitude from 'street' / 'graff' artists ... i believe in the ethic of punk through and through .. we are all artists .. i dont have to do what you do to be included in your 'gang' .. its bullshit man , a continuation of school teachers telling you you cant do that cos you aint good enough or saying you cant draw cos that doesnt look like a vase of flowers ... all designed to disempower the individual .. we can all draw , we are all artists ,, if you can shit /if you can spit / if you can scrub a pen up and down on any medium be it paper or concrete then YOU are an artist and YOU have every right in the world to do that , to make that mark .. no-one else can do what you do.... thats what 'street art ' should be about ... that comment about 'you would probably be killed walking around LA' what a stupid fucked up thing to say !! is that meant to be a good thing - to make yall feel hard ! all that says to me is that thuggery, brutality and violence is considered right in that world !! what a crock of shit ! We all have the right to do what we want when we want and if that gets you killed in LA then what a bunch of meat heads that place must be full of... isnt it bad enough that society is enforced by thugs with guns called the 'police' - the streets there are also full of 'laws' enforced with guns (or violence) by its own citizens ! and i take it from the comment by its own 'writers' you arent 'allowed' to write unless a 'respected writer ' is 'holding your hand' !!!! laughable. as far as i am concerned you could be a kid or you could be a pensioner - the second you make a mark on the world ( be it a canvas or a wall ) with pen/pencil/paint or whatever , you have my respect . just dont go over someone elses work without their permission!!
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Is tagging the same as dogs pissing up lamposts, by Guest on Jul 7, 2008 23:06:50 GMT 1, Its this attitude of exclusivity and non inclusiveness that allways really pissed me off about the Art 'world' -- now we get the same clique attitude from 'street' / 'graff' artists ... i believe in the ethic of punk through and through .. we are all artists .. i dont have to do what you do to be included in your 'gang' .. its bulls**t man , a continuation of school teachers telling you you cant do that cos you aint good enough or saying you cant draw cos that doesnt look like a vase of flowers ... all designed to disempower the individual .. we can all draw , we are all artists ,, if you can s**t /if you can spit / if you can scrub a pen up and down on any medium be it paper or concrete then YOU are an artist and YOU have every right in the world to do that , to make that mark .. no-one else can do what you do.... thats what 'street art ' should be about ... that comment about 'you would probably be killed walking around LA' what a stupid f**ked up thing to say !! is that meant to be a good thing - to make yall feel hard ! all that says to me is that thuggery, brutality and violence is considered right in that world !! what a crock of s**t ! We all have the right to do what we want when we want and if that gets you killed in LA then what a bunch of meat heads that place must be full of... isnt it bad enough that society is enforced by thugs with guns called the 'police' - the streets there are also full of 'laws' enforced with guns (or violence) by its own citizens ! and i take it from the comment by its own 'writers' you arent 'allowed' to write unless a 'respected writer ' is 'holding your hand' !!!! laughable. as far as i am concerned you could be a kid or you could be a pensioner - the second you make a mark on the world ( be it a canvas or a wall ) with pen/pencil/paint or whatever , you have my respect . just dont go over someone elses work without their permission!!
I couldn't agree more with just about everything you said. The unfortunate reality is that LA is a particularly negative place for street artist's. That's just part of what these guys have to deal with. It's also why they are fighting so hard to rise above that and enter into a more positive situation, and be able to use their words and images as a catalyst for social change. That's what this is about!!! Development!
Its this attitude of exclusivity and non inclusiveness that allways really pissed me off about the Art 'world' -- now we get the same clique attitude from 'street' / 'graff' artists ... i believe in the ethic of punk through and through .. we are all artists .. i dont have to do what you do to be included in your 'gang' .. its bulls**t man , a continuation of school teachers telling you you cant do that cos you aint good enough or saying you cant draw cos that doesnt look like a vase of flowers ... all designed to disempower the individual .. we can all draw , we are all artists ,, if you can s**t /if you can spit / if you can scrub a pen up and down on any medium be it paper or concrete then YOU are an artist and YOU have every right in the world to do that , to make that mark .. no-one else can do what you do.... thats what 'street art ' should be about ... that comment about 'you would probably be killed walking around LA' what a stupid f**ked up thing to say !! is that meant to be a good thing - to make yall feel hard ! all that says to me is that thuggery, brutality and violence is considered right in that world !! what a crock of s**t ! We all have the right to do what we want when we want and if that gets you killed in LA then what a bunch of meat heads that place must be full of... isnt it bad enough that society is enforced by thugs with guns called the 'police' - the streets there are also full of 'laws' enforced with guns (or violence) by its own citizens ! and i take it from the comment by its own 'writers' you arent 'allowed' to write unless a 'respected writer ' is 'holding your hand' !!!! laughable. as far as i am concerned you could be a kid or you could be a pensioner - the second you make a mark on the world ( be it a canvas or a wall ) with pen/pencil/paint or whatever , you have my respect . just dont go over someone elses work without their permission!! I couldn't agree more with just about everything you said. The unfortunate reality is that LA is a particularly negative place for street artist's. That's just part of what these guys have to deal with. It's also why they are fighting so hard to rise above that and enter into a more positive situation, and be able to use their words and images as a catalyst for social change. That's what this is about!!! Development!
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Is tagging the same as dogs pissing up lamposts, by Guest on Jul 7, 2008 23:57:35 GMT 1, Its this attitude of exclusivity and non inclusiveness that allways really pissed me off about the Art 'world' -- now we get the same clique attitude from 'street' / 'graff' artists ... i believe in the ethic of punk through and through .. we are all artists .. i dont have to do what you do to be included in your 'gang' .. its bulls**t man , a continuation of school teachers telling you you cant do that cos you aint good enough or saying you cant draw cos that doesnt look like a vase of flowers ... all designed to disempower the individual .. we can all draw , we are all artists ,, if you can s**t /if you can spit / if you can scrub a pen up and down on any medium be it paper or concrete then YOU are an artist and YOU have every right in the world to do that , to make that mark .. no-one else can do what you do.... thats what 'street art ' should be about ... that comment about 'you would probably be killed walking around LA' what a stupid f**ked up thing to say !! is that meant to be a good thing - to make yall feel hard ! all that says to me is that thuggery, brutality and violence is considered right in that world !! what a crock of s**t ! We all have the right to do what we want when we want and if that gets you killed in LA then what a bunch of meat heads that place must be full of... isnt it bad enough that society is enforced by thugs with guns called the 'police' - the streets there are also full of 'laws' enforced with guns (or violence) by its own citizens ! and i take it from the comment by its own 'writers' you arent 'allowed' to write unless a 'respected writer ' is 'holding your hand' !!!! laughable. as far as i am concerned you could be a kid or you could be a pensioner - the second you make a mark on the world ( be it a canvas or a wall ) with pen/pencil/paint or whatever , you have my respect . just dont go over someone elses work without their permission!!
Great post SPQR
Its this attitude of exclusivity and non inclusiveness that allways really pissed me off about the Art 'world' -- now we get the same clique attitude from 'street' / 'graff' artists ... i believe in the ethic of punk through and through .. we are all artists .. i dont have to do what you do to be included in your 'gang' .. its bulls**t man , a continuation of school teachers telling you you cant do that cos you aint good enough or saying you cant draw cos that doesnt look like a vase of flowers ... all designed to disempower the individual .. we can all draw , we are all artists ,, if you can s**t /if you can spit / if you can scrub a pen up and down on any medium be it paper or concrete then YOU are an artist and YOU have every right in the world to do that , to make that mark .. no-one else can do what you do.... thats what 'street art ' should be about ... that comment about 'you would probably be killed walking around LA' what a stupid f**ked up thing to say !! is that meant to be a good thing - to make yall feel hard ! all that says to me is that thuggery, brutality and violence is considered right in that world !! what a crock of s**t ! We all have the right to do what we want when we want and if that gets you killed in LA then what a bunch of meat heads that place must be full of... isnt it bad enough that society is enforced by thugs with guns called the 'police' - the streets there are also full of 'laws' enforced with guns (or violence) by its own citizens ! and i take it from the comment by its own 'writers' you arent 'allowed' to write unless a 'respected writer ' is 'holding your hand' !!!! laughable. as far as i am concerned you could be a kid or you could be a pensioner - the second you make a mark on the world ( be it a canvas or a wall ) with pen/pencil/paint or whatever , you have my respect . just dont go over someone elses work without their permission!! Great post SPQR
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6floes
New Member
Posts โข 26
Likes โข 0
January 2009
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Is tagging the same as dogs pissing up lamposts, by 6floes on Jan 11, 2009 14:15:24 GMT 1, i myself see tagging as a way of telling people "yo ive been here, but i dont have time to do a piece or a stencil or a paste up"
like i only ever tag in areas surrounding my pieces just as to say "hey, ive pieced around here, come find me"
i myself see tagging as a way of telling people "yo ive been here, but i dont have time to do a piece or a stencil or a paste up"
like i only ever tag in areas surrounding my pieces just as to say "hey, ive pieced around here, come find me"
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