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Art returns compared to other assets, by xmyart on Jul 3, 2011 0:33:03 GMT 1, i have my suspicions only the red (ish) line will hold its direction.
i have my suspicions only the red (ish) line will hold its direction.
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Shoot Again
Junior Member
Posts โข 5,522
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April 2011
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Art returns compared to other assets, by Shoot Again on Jul 3, 2011 1:11:54 GMT 1, Was expecting this chart to be posted by you Zim ;-)
Was expecting this chart to be posted by you Zim ;-)
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Art returns compared to other assets, by Brushstrokes 75 on Jul 3, 2011 1:15:57 GMT 1, I don't know though if they took only high end paintings or every medium in their calculation ...
I don't know though if they took only high end paintings or every medium in their calculation ...
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Art returns compared to other assets, by Jeezuz Jones Snr on Jul 3, 2011 1:30:11 GMT 1, I am about to dabble in shares (been researching small companies), don't know anything about shares, should be fun - better than watching savings slowly grow... hopefully it will be a faster way of making enough to purchase my first Jose Parla Watercolour  For the first time here in Australia house prices are starting to drop. We missed the GFC compared to how bad it hit USA/Europe. Not sure how much % but could be interesting 1 or 2 years... Was reading how much people were splashing out on art at the HK art fair.. some serious cash!! be nice to be rich and have a substantial yearly art allowance...it takes me ages to save up money for framing LOL... anyone here invested in gold?? Surely the gold price has to come down soon??
thanks for posting the website Brushstrokes...
I am about to dabble in shares (been researching small companies), don't know anything about shares, should be fun - better than watching savings slowly grow... hopefully it will be a faster way of making enough to purchase my first Jose Parla Watercolour For the first time here in Australia house prices are starting to drop. We missed the GFC compared to how bad it hit USA/Europe. Not sure how much % but could be interesting 1 or 2 years... Was reading how much people were splashing out on art at the HK art fair.. some serious cash!! be nice to be rich and have a substantial yearly art allowance...it takes me ages to save up money for framing LOL... anyone here invested in gold?? Surely the gold price has to come down soon?? thanks for posting the website Brushstrokes... |
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Art returns compared to other assets, by Brushstrokes 75 on Jul 3, 2011 1:43:04 GMT 1, I was reading (again) another report earlier and I was astonished by the fact that 4 of the (overall) highest selling artists in 2010 were Chinese... (to jump on your HK art fair comment) [even 8 out of of the Top 20]
If anyone cares to have a read :
imgpublic.artprice.com/pdf/trends2010_en.pdf
I was reading (again) another report earlier and I was astonished by the fact that 4 of the (overall) highest selling artists in 2010 were Chinese... (to jump on your HK art fair comment) [even 8 out of of the Top 20] If anyone cares to have a read : imgpublic.artprice.com/pdf/trends2010_en.pdf |
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mmmike
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,420
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March 2010
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Art returns compared to other assets, by mmmike on Jul 3, 2011 2:36:17 GMT 1, I don't know though if they took only high end paintings or every medium in their calculation ...
not comparing apples to apples. Definite survivorship bias. The world's top performing stocks over the period would be off the charts.
I don't know though if they took only high end paintings or every medium in their calculation ... not comparing apples to apples. Definite survivorship bias. The world's top performing stocks over the period would be off the charts. |
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etched
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,300
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February 2008
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Art returns compared to other assets, by etched on Jul 3, 2011 2:43:11 GMT 1, wha?
wha?
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Art returns compared to other assets, by Brushstrokes 75 on Jul 3, 2011 2:57:34 GMT 1, I don't know though if they took only high end paintings or every medium in their calculation ... not comparing apples to apples. Definite survivorship bias. The world's top performing stocks over the period would be off the charts.
Don't agree with your point.
When they say the top performing painters at auction, I think that they meant the 500 artists which sold for more money, which should also be the 500 biggest artists on the planet. In other words, the 500 artists who represent the art market.
It means they took artists who could echoe what would be the 500 companies in the S&P (even if the S&P has a bias too since it only considers publicly traded large companies).
However, I think it would have been better to have made a stat by medium class (prints & multiples, drawings & watercolours, paintings, sculptures) as their volatility isn't similar at all (and their weighted average either.
On another note, there is another bias as large works usually don't go back in the market 10 years later. So, I imagine that quality also plays a large role in the result (even if the number of sales might smooth the results).
I think prints are a better indicator as they often come back on the market & they also are more liquid so easier to compare.
I don't know though if they took only high end paintings or every medium in their calculation ... not comparing apples to apples. Definite survivorship bias. The world's top performing stocks over the period would be off the charts. Don't agree with your point. When they say the top performing painters at auction, I think that they meant the 500 artists which sold for more money, which should also be the 500 biggest artists on the planet. In other words, the 500 artists who represent the art market. It means they took artists who could echoe what would be the 500 companies in the S&P (even if the S&P has a bias too since it only considers publicly traded large companies). However, I think it would have been better to have made a stat by medium class (prints & multiples, drawings & watercolours, paintings, sculptures) as their volatility isn't similar at all (and their weighted average either. On another note, there is another bias as large works usually don't go back in the market 10 years later. So, I imagine that quality also plays a large role in the result (even if the number of sales might smooth the results). I think prints are a better indicator as they often come back on the market & they also are more liquid so easier to compare. |
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Art returns compared to other assets, by rperry on Jul 3, 2011 2:58:05 GMT 1, what happened to oil? their shares are the highest profit margin they've been since the 19th century (gilded age).
Not to mention they are gov subsidized
what happened to oil? their shares are the highest profit margin they've been since the 19th century (gilded age).
Not to mention they are gov subsidized
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mmmike
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,420
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March 2010
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Art returns compared to other assets, by mmmike on Jul 3, 2011 3:31:54 GMT 1, not comparing apples to apples. Definite survivorship bias. The world's top performing stocks over the period would be off the charts. Don't agree with your point. When they say the top performing painters at auction, I think that they meant the 500 artists which sold for more money, which should also be the 500 biggest artists on the planet. In other words, the 500 artists who represent the art market. It means they took artists who could echoe what would be the 500 companies in the S&P (even if the S&P has a bias too since it only considers publicly traded large companies). However, I think it would have been better to have made a stat by medium class (prints & multiples, drawings & watercolours, paintings, sculptures) as their volatility isn't similar at all (and their weighted average either. On another note, there is another bias as large works usually don't go back in the market 10 years later. So, I imagine that quality also plays a large role in the result (even if the number of sales might smooth the results). I think prints are a better indicator as they often come back on the market & they also are more liquid so easier to compare.
Would the top 500 artists 10 years ago be the same as today? Is it the top 500 by sales at the start of the period or end? How is the weighting done? When an artist is in demand more supply will come to market, this will distort the stats the opposite is also true.
The S&P changes constituents regularly, not sure how you do that with an art index. It would require liquidating holdings in the artist if they are not as popular, but in real life there would be no market and they should be removed at close to zero.
Not to mention storage and transaction costs which I doubt have been correctly captured.
Another thing to consider is how crazy the decade has been, I wouldn't use 10 years as a meaningful time period.
When you get into prints and such it becomes even more difficult. Prints from artists that go out of fashion can become completely unsellable as such not register at all in the stats.
not comparing apples to apples. Definite survivorship bias. The world's top performing stocks over the period would be off the charts. Don't agree with your point. When they say the top performing painters at auction, I think that they meant the 500 artists which sold for more money, which should also be the 500 biggest artists on the planet. In other words, the 500 artists who represent the art market. It means they took artists who could echoe what would be the 500 companies in the S&P (even if the S&P has a bias too since it only considers publicly traded large companies). However, I think it would have been better to have made a stat by medium class (prints & multiples, drawings & watercolours, paintings, sculptures) as their volatility isn't similar at all (and their weighted average either. On another note, there is another bias as large works usually don't go back in the market 10 years later. So, I imagine that quality also plays a large role in the result (even if the number of sales might smooth the results). I think prints are a better indicator as they often come back on the market & they also are more liquid so easier to compare. Would the top 500 artists 10 years ago be the same as today? Is it the top 500 by sales at the start of the period or end? How is the weighting done? When an artist is in demand more supply will come to market, this will distort the stats the opposite is also true. The S&P changes constituents regularly, not sure how you do that with an art index. It would require liquidating holdings in the artist if they are not as popular, but in real life there would be no market and they should be removed at close to zero. Not to mention storage and transaction costs which I doubt have been correctly captured. Another thing to consider is how crazy the decade has been, I wouldn't use 10 years as a meaningful time period. When you get into prints and such it becomes even more difficult. Prints from artists that go out of fashion can become completely unsellable as such not register at all in the stats. |
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Art returns compared to other assets, by Brushstrokes 75 on Jul 3, 2011 4:22:18 GMT 1, Again, as I pointed out first without further details that I wasn't/we weren't aware of the methodology so I really can't argue your points.
I'm not even sure they've done any weighting too (between both the artists & the medium classes). When you know that prints represents 20% of art sales at auction but only weight for less than 2% of the overall turnover in 2010! That's why I thought it would have been better to have made the calculation separating the classes.
Again, as I pointed out first without further details that I wasn't/we weren't aware of the methodology so I really can't argue your points.
I'm not even sure they've done any weighting too (between both the artists & the medium classes). When you know that prints represents 20% of art sales at auction but only weight for less than 2% of the overall turnover in 2010! That's why I thought it would have been better to have made the calculation separating the classes.
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johnnyh
Junior Member
Posts โข 4,492
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March 2011
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Art returns compared to other assets, by johnnyh on Jul 3, 2011 6:41:11 GMT 1, Brushstrokes is right. Actually if you read it right it tells you what it is. It's the top 500 at auction v the bench market indexes over the same period.
Top 500 at auction is not the top 500 artists but the top 500 artists based upon the sales revenue per year. This changes each year based upon the sales.
As do the Companies in the bench market indexes.
It's a reasonably simple methodology so I would imagine that the figures are accurate. So I doubt any problems with the methodology.
Is it a fair comparison is unto each individual to decide as regardless these are the facts.
What they have done though is show various indicators to compare which is useful.
You can see the indicators here notice equities drop, followed by real estate, flowed by art.
Then notice equities recover first followed by real estate, followed by art. This is looking 2006 -2010. If you look earlier various odd quirks but it follows.
When equities are good eg companies, jobs etc house prices increase people have spare money so buy luxuries such as art etc
Think it's really interesting!!! IMO
Johnny
Brushstrokes is right. Actually if you read it right it tells you what it is. It's the top 500 at auction v the bench market indexes over the same period.
Top 500 at auction is not the top 500 artists but the top 500 artists based upon the sales revenue per year. This changes each year based upon the sales.
As do the Companies in the bench market indexes.
It's a reasonably simple methodology so I would imagine that the figures are accurate. So I doubt any problems with the methodology.
Is it a fair comparison is unto each individual to decide as regardless these are the facts.
What they have done though is show various indicators to compare which is useful.
You can see the indicators here notice equities drop, followed by real estate, flowed by art.
Then notice equities recover first followed by real estate, followed by art. This is looking 2006 -2010. If you look earlier various odd quirks but it follows.
When equities are good eg companies, jobs etc house prices increase people have spare money so buy luxuries such as art etc
Think it's really interesting!!! IMO
Johnny
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is this MBW's new print then ...  |
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johnnyh
Junior Member
Posts โข 4,492
Likes โข 2,102
March 2011
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Art returns compared to other assets, by johnnyh on Jul 3, 2011 6:48:35 GMT 1, Lol u have probably just ruined it for him!!!
Lol u have probably just ruined it for him!!!
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Art returns compared to other assets, by fingerz on Jul 3, 2011 7:08:31 GMT 1, Lol u have probably just ruined it for him!!!
lol ... ;D
Lol u have probably just ruined it for him!!! lol ... ;D |
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curiousgeorge
Junior Member
Posts โข 5,833
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March 2007
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Art returns compared to other assets, by curiousgeorge on Jul 3, 2011 10:45:23 GMT 1, More shares than art related but a good read all the same (sorry posted before)
www.kyleconroy.com/apple-stock.php
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johnnyh
Junior Member
Posts โข 4,492
Likes โข 2,102
March 2011
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Art returns compared to other assets, by johnnyh on Jul 3, 2011 12:55:46 GMT 1, Thats very neat George thanks I'd not seen before
Thats very neat George thanks I'd not seen before
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For the first time here in Australia house prices are starting to drop. We missed the GFC compared to how bad it hit USA/Europe. Not sure how much % but could be interesting 1 or 2 years... Was reading how much people were splashing out on art at the HK art fair.. some serious cash!! be nice to be rich and have a substantial yearly art allowance...it takes me ages to save up money for framing LOL... anyone here invested in gold?? Surely the gold price has to come down soon?? 
