corter
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March 2012
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by corter on May 7, 2012 21:43:13 GMT 1, Hey there,
I'm very sorry if this is in the wrong area, mods: if so, please move. Need a quick answer.
I've been searching the forums for a year or two now for a Strawberry Doughnuts, and finally found one on Friday for sale by a member here and on EB that I offered to purchase. Here are the events that occurred:
FRIDAY
Me: Hey, is this still available?
Seller: yes, I have one person in line before you. If he doesn't pay tonight, it's yours.
Seller (later that night): he didn't pay, you are first in line. Send payment to ______ via paypal.
Me: ok, verify shipping method and I'll send payment via paypal.
SUNDAY (seller was offline saturday)
Seller: I will ship via _____
Me: payment sent (5/6/12, 5pm).
Monday (today)
Seller: Got the payment! Hey, would you like to buy the frame for $_______
Me: No thanks, I'm planning on having it framed to match other works.
(5/7/12, 3pm) Seller then refunded my payment, stating that the first buyer had sent payment late and he was accepting it and refunding me because he had done deals with the other buyer before.
My question is, is this legal? All of this is documented, we in every way had a contract AND he had my payment in hand for almost 24 hours. The reason I ask is because this seller is on these boards as well and was trying to sell this print here, and I don't want others going through what I've gone through. I will disclose the username if need be, just want to get this sorted out.
Hey there,
I'm very sorry if this is in the wrong area, mods: if so, please move. Need a quick answer.
I've been searching the forums for a year or two now for a Strawberry Doughnuts, and finally found one on Friday for sale by a member here and on EB that I offered to purchase. Here are the events that occurred:
FRIDAY
Me: Hey, is this still available?
Seller: yes, I have one person in line before you. If he doesn't pay tonight, it's yours.
Seller (later that night): he didn't pay, you are first in line. Send payment to ______ via paypal.
Me: ok, verify shipping method and I'll send payment via paypal.
SUNDAY (seller was offline saturday)
Seller: I will ship via _____
Me: payment sent (5/6/12, 5pm).
Monday (today)
Seller: Got the payment! Hey, would you like to buy the frame for $_______
Me: No thanks, I'm planning on having it framed to match other works.
(5/7/12, 3pm) Seller then refunded my payment, stating that the first buyer had sent payment late and he was accepting it and refunding me because he had done deals with the other buyer before.
My question is, is this legal? All of this is documented, we in every way had a contract AND he had my payment in hand for almost 24 hours. The reason I ask is because this seller is on these boards as well and was trying to sell this print here, and I don't want others going through what I've gone through. I will disclose the username if need be, just want to get this sorted out.
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kultur
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June 2010
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by kultur on May 7, 2012 21:54:13 GMT 1, Legal - technically it is a contract but I think it would be hard to prove even with all the facts/notes - people are refunded all the time when something oversells
Karma is your only recourse.
If it is the seller I am thinking of, you probably should consider yourself lucky you got refunded and just move on.
Legal - technically it is a contract but I think it would be hard to prove even with all the facts/notes - people are refunded all the time when something oversells
Karma is your only recourse.
If it is the seller I am thinking of, you probably should consider yourself lucky you got refunded and just move on.
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jonti
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Posts โข 921
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December 2011
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by jonti on May 7, 2012 22:01:36 GMT 1, Ouch.
I suppose if he had loose morals he could refund you.
Not good form at all. I would be pretty pissed if that happened to me.
Couple of things could have happened here...
Offered it to you after no payment/contact on the arranged day of the deal with the first buyer
Or played the 2 buyers off each other and he received a better offer
Just have a massive rant at him, stick him on the guilt trip, and wait for the next one to come up.
Ouch.
I suppose if he had loose morals he could refund you.
Not good form at all. I would be pretty pissed if that happened to me.
Couple of things could have happened here...
Offered it to you after no payment/contact on the arranged day of the deal with the first buyer
Or played the 2 buyers off each other and he received a better offer
Just have a massive rant at him, stick him on the guilt trip, and wait for the next one to come up.
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corter
New Member
Posts โข 17
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March 2012
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by corter on May 7, 2012 22:11:30 GMT 1, thanks guys. From my research and having many friends in the art world, this was indeed a breach of contract- a very well documented one. The seller even works at an art gallery and buys/sells regularly. Lebdel: He already did all of these things, and I am extremely pissed. I think he wanted to play us off each other, but his mistake was taking my payment and putting it all in time-stamped writing.
Working on what I'm going to do now, thanks guys!
thanks guys. From my research and having many friends in the art world, this was indeed a breach of contract- a very well documented one. The seller even works at an art gallery and buys/sells regularly. Lebdel: He already did all of these things, and I am extremely pissed. I think he wanted to play us off each other, but his mistake was taking my payment and putting it all in time-stamped writing.
Working on what I'm going to do now, thanks guys!
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jonti
New Member
Posts โข 921
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December 2011
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by jonti on May 7, 2012 22:14:39 GMT 1, Just had a look over on EB about this, the message you have posted from him definitely leaves him in deep doo doo
Just had a look over on EB about this, the message you have posted from him definitely leaves him in deep doo doo
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cpo
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Posts โข 359
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December 2006
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by cpo on May 7, 2012 22:41:47 GMT 1, Appearently, this sort of bad ethics is not uncommon.
forum.Expressobeans/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=87599
Legally speaking, you don't have much recourse, but I think most people agree, once a deal has been made and money has exchanged hands, the deal should be followed through.
You won't be able to make him sell it to you, if that's what you are hoping to get out of this...
Appearently, this sort of bad ethics is not uncommon. forum.Expressobeans/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=87599Legally speaking, you don't have much recourse, but I think most people agree, once a deal has been made and money has exchanged hands, the deal should be followed through. You won't be able to make him sell it to you, if that's what you are hoping to get out of this... |
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corter
New Member
Posts โข 17
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March 2012
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by corter on May 7, 2012 22:55:43 GMT 1, Thanks dude. I'm not planning to make him sell it to me- just don't want more people saving up for years to get a piece, find the perfect one, even pay for it... and have their hearts kinda broken a little bit because they refuse an upsell or whatever. It's also not cool for people like him to mess around with that much money and that kind of art as far as I'm concerned, but I make a living online- I know stuff like this happens. The online poster community's done a lot for me, just trying to give a fair bit back and protect other buyers is all.
Thanks dude. I'm not planning to make him sell it to me- just don't want more people saving up for years to get a piece, find the perfect one, even pay for it... and have their hearts kinda broken a little bit because they refuse an upsell or whatever. It's also not cool for people like him to mess around with that much money and that kind of art as far as I'm concerned, but I make a living online- I know stuff like this happens. The online poster community's done a lot for me, just trying to give a fair bit back and protect other buyers is all.
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by freeview on May 7, 2012 23:05:14 GMT 1, Name and shame, make others aware of said member..
Name and shame, make others aware of said member..
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corter
New Member
Posts โข 17
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March 2012
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by corter on May 8, 2012 4:51:17 GMT 1, jpawlish1476 here
j_pawlish1476 on EB
the only reason I'm posing info is because the EB doughnuts thread was just updated, and the real story is now coming through.
He sold to me for $4,300 on Friday, and collected payment Sunday. Monday he asked if I would buy the frame for an additional $275, which I said no thanks to because I wanted to have it framed myself.
Within 10 minutes of that correspondence on Monday he sold it to SOMEONE ELSE for $4,500.
Then he refunded me.
f**ked.
jpawlish1476 here
j_pawlish1476 on EB
the only reason I'm posing info is because the EB doughnuts thread was just updated, and the real story is now coming through.
He sold to me for $4,300 on Friday, and collected payment Sunday. Monday he asked if I would buy the frame for an additional $275, which I said no thanks to because I wanted to have it framed myself.
Within 10 minutes of that correspondence on Monday he sold it to SOMEONE ELSE for $4,500.
Then he refunded me.
f**ked.
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Hubble Bubble
Junior Member
Posts โข 4,099
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December 2010
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by Hubble Bubble on May 8, 2012 7:51:44 GMT 1, not good at all
not good at all
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Trevorm
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,160
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August 2010
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by Trevorm on May 8, 2012 8:07:00 GMT 1, Send 'Hairy Bill' round to see him.
Seriously tho' I should put it down to experience, it will end up costing you loads in trying to get satisfaction + you ain't gonna get the piece that you paid for (at least you got a refund)
Shame is that it's stuff like this that knocks everybodies confidence and promotes mis/distrust.
Anyway you can alsways trust me as I'm a nice bloke! Honest.
Send 'Hairy Bill' round to see him.
Seriously tho' I should put it down to experience, it will end up costing you loads in trying to get satisfaction + you ain't gonna get the piece that you paid for (at least you got a refund)
Shame is that it's stuff like this that knocks everybodies confidence and promotes mis/distrust.
Anyway you can alsways trust me as I'm a nice bloke! Honest.
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PUD
New Member
Posts โข 429
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March 2007
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by PUD on May 8, 2012 9:21:50 GMT 1, Corter, IMO you have had a very lucky escape, now you can spend the money you had put aside on a decent Banksy image! 
Corter, IMO you have had a very lucky escape, now you can spend the money you had put aside on a decent Banksy image! |
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achtungbono
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,093
Likes โข 156
May 2008
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by achtungbono on May 8, 2012 9:28:43 GMT 1, Corter, IMO you have had a very lucky escape, now you can spend the money you had put aside on a decent Banksy image!
^^^^^ this ^^^^^
Corter, IMO you have had a very lucky escape, now you can spend the money you had put aside on a decent Banksy image! ^^^^^ this ^^^^^ |
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by Happy Shopper on May 8, 2012 12:53:45 GMT 1, What's annoying me at the moment is the opposite happening.
Negotiating a price with someone, several PMs or emails, giving them my Paypal address... and then nothing... radio silence...
What's annoying me at the moment is the opposite happening.
Negotiating a price with someone, several PMs or emails, giving them my Paypal address... and then nothing... radio silence...
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by artfuldodgers on May 8, 2012 15:20:11 GMT 1, Forward all the info to admin and request a lifetime ban for the knob.
Forward all the info to admin and request a lifetime ban for the knob.
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tsteve
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Posts โข 93
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February 2012
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by tsteve on May 8, 2012 19:23:50 GMT 1, Forward all the info to admin and request a lifetime ban for the knob.
Your description is of a completed contract. In the world of law, the elements are (1) offer, (2) acceptance, and (3) consideration [payment]. You had all three, and it is a binding contract. Where is this a-hole located?
Forward all the info to admin and request a lifetime ban for the knob. Your description is of a completed contract. In the world of law, the elements are (1) offer, (2) acceptance, and (3) consideration [payment]. You had all three, and it is a binding contract. Where is this a-hole located? |
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corter
New Member
Posts โข 17
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March 2012
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by corter on May 8, 2012 23:24:07 GMT 1, Thanks guys. He's located in San Francisco I believe. I'm honestly not going after anything legal even though I agree with you- wouldn't want to do anything business related with someone like that. The most annoying part is Paypal holding my $4,300 for the next 5 days to review the transaction. Nothing like loosing access to that much $$ for a week for no reason.
Thanks guys. He's located in San Francisco I believe. I'm honestly not going after anything legal even though I agree with you- wouldn't want to do anything business related with someone like that. The most annoying part is Paypal holding my $4,300 for the next 5 days to review the transaction. Nothing like loosing access to that much $$ for a week for no reason.
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tsteve
New Member
Posts โข 93
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February 2012
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by tsteve on May 8, 2012 23:39:42 GMT 1, Thanks guys. He's located in San Francisco I believe. I'm honestly not going after anything legal even though I agree with you- wouldn't want to do anything business related with someone like that. The most annoying part is Paypal holding my $4,300 for the next 5 days to review the transaction. Nothing like loosing access to that much $$ for a week for no reason.
If he is in the U.S., then not only do you have a binding contract, you are also entitled to "specific performance," i.e. a Court Order mandating that the print be sold to you for the price you paid. If you are then forced to purchase a different copy for a greater price, the seller is responsible for the difference. Hope this helps.
Thanks guys. He's located in San Francisco I believe. I'm honestly not going after anything legal even though I agree with you- wouldn't want to do anything business related with someone like that. The most annoying part is Paypal holding my $4,300 for the next 5 days to review the transaction. Nothing like loosing access to that much $$ for a week for no reason. If he is in the U.S., then not only do you have a binding contract, you are also entitled to "specific performance," i.e. a Court Order mandating that the print be sold to you for the price you paid. If you are then forced to purchase a different copy for a greater price, the seller is responsible for the difference. Hope this helps. |
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cpo
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Posts โข 359
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December 2006
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by cpo on May 9, 2012 0:53:09 GMT 1, Thanks guys. He's located in San Francisco I believe. I'm honestly not going after anything legal even though I agree with you- wouldn't want to do anything business related with someone like that. The most annoying part is Paypal holding my $4,300 for the next 5 days to review the transaction. Nothing like loosing access to that much $$ for a week for no reason. If he is in the U.S., then not only do you have a binding contract, you are also entitled to "specific performance," i.e. a Court Order mandating that the print be sold to you for the price you paid. If you are then forced to purchase a different copy for a greater price, the seller is responsible for the difference. Hope this helps.
All of that is well and good, and I probably would have answered like that had I graduated from law school in the last 9 months (not saying that tsteve did and that's why he has busted out his k hornbook), but having been around the block, knowing the costs (time and money) of taking someone to court EVEN small claims which is generally under 5g, (I assume you aren't in California as well?), and more importantly, the typical outcome in these situations, than I would strongly suggest not getting your hopes up for any legal recourse and see my post above.
Again, you may hold the legal high-ground, but in he real world that doesn't always mean much. I do agree that he screwed you over and should have followed through...
Thanks guys. He's located in San Francisco I believe. I'm honestly not going after anything legal even though I agree with you- wouldn't want to do anything business related with someone like that. The most annoying part is Paypal holding my $4,300 for the next 5 days to review the transaction. Nothing like loosing access to that much $$ for a week for no reason. If he is in the U.S., then not only do you have a binding contract, you are also entitled to "specific performance," i.e. a Court Order mandating that the print be sold to you for the price you paid. If you are then forced to purchase a different copy for a greater price, the seller is responsible for the difference. Hope this helps. All of that is well and good, and I probably would have answered like that had I graduated from law school in the last 9 months (not saying that tsteve did and that's why he has busted out his k hornbook), but having been around the block, knowing the costs (time and money) of taking someone to court EVEN small claims which is generally under 5g, (I assume you aren't in California as well?), and more importantly, the typical outcome in these situations, than I would strongly suggest not getting your hopes up for any legal recourse and see my post above. Again, you may hold the legal high-ground, but in he real world that doesn't always mean much. I do agree that he screwed you over and should have followed through... |
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corter
New Member
Posts โข 17
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March 2012
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by corter on May 9, 2012 3:01:44 GMT 1, Oh, I understand that- as I said, just want to make sure this doesn't happen to anyone else with the sizable purchases that are made. I also want to learn from this experience moving forward, so thank you all for helping me so kindly! I admit I was very upset and shaken when this happened as that amount of money is many months rent, a nice used car, etc- it was an upsetting situation.
Interestingly enough, I just heard from the seller threatening legal action for slander, harassment, and stalking because his lawyer is the Attorney General for the state of Nevada and "he" said this gent has a case. Only problem? The Attorney General of Nevada is...erm...female.
The seller is just a kid that has a lot of expensive art, and I wouldn't ever do business with him or recommend anyone else does to the tune of thousands of dollars. I feel that should be the ultimate lesson in this thread.
Oh, I understand that- as I said, just want to make sure this doesn't happen to anyone else with the sizable purchases that are made. I also want to learn from this experience moving forward, so thank you all for helping me so kindly! I admit I was very upset and shaken when this happened as that amount of money is many months rent, a nice used car, etc- it was an upsetting situation.
Interestingly enough, I just heard from the seller threatening legal action for slander, harassment, and stalking because his lawyer is the Attorney General for the state of Nevada and "he" said this gent has a case. Only problem? The Attorney General of Nevada is...erm...female.
The seller is just a kid that has a lot of expensive art, and I wouldn't ever do business with him or recommend anyone else does to the tune of thousands of dollars. I feel that should be the ultimate lesson in this thread.
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PUD
New Member
Posts โข 429
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March 2007
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by PUD on May 9, 2012 17:26:17 GMT 1, How can you possibly slander someone if you haven't named them?? Hard to beleive some people, I could write a book on the amount of deals that I have been involved in where the seller/buyer has backed out. Even drove 250 miles to collect a print and pay in cash, seller changed his mind, drove home empty handed!! What can you really do about it and is it worth the hassle?? Personally I wouldn't want this guy to have any of my hard earned no matter how much I wanted the print!!
How can you possibly slander someone if you haven't named them?? Hard to beleive some people, I could write a book on the amount of deals that I have been involved in where the seller/buyer has backed out. Even drove 250 miles to collect a print and pay in cash, seller changed his mind, drove home empty handed!! What can you really do about it and is it worth the hassle?? Personally I wouldn't want this guy to have any of my hard earned no matter how much I wanted the print!!
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tsteve
New Member
Posts โข 93
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February 2012
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Can sellers back out after receiving payment?, by tsteve on May 9, 2012 18:56:46 GMT 1, Interestingly enough, I just heard from the seller threatening legal action for slander, harassment, and stalking because his lawyer is the Attorney General for the state of Nevada and "he" said this gent has a case. Only problem? The Attorney General of Nevada is...erm...female.
Truth is an absolute defense to slander. And yes, I did graduate from law school, but quite a while back. 
Interestingly enough, I just heard from the seller threatening legal action for slander, harassment, and stalking because his lawyer is the Attorney General for the state of Nevada and "he" said this gent has a case. Only problem? The Attorney General of Nevada is...erm...female. Truth is an absolute defense to slander. And yes, I did graduate from law school, but quite a while back. |
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