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POW Pictures on Walls, by Existencil on Dec 14, 2008 20:54:15 GMT 1, The frustration was definately with POW.
The frustration was definately with POW.
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POW Pictures on Walls, by veralynn on Dec 14, 2008 21:00:46 GMT 1, Errrr, no, people who flip prints don't in any way shape or form the international 'market' or any other form of market, they distort it.
Free markets thrive on transparency and willing seller/buyer transactions - far from 'helping' markets, this kind of activity manipulates markets. I feel you are only trying to justify your own actions and those of fellow (and you're gonna say you haven't flipped anything in the last year as a mitigant) flippers.
Other than Banksy releases of late, there's little this year that if you take 'flippers' out of the equation would've sold out in an instant, hence the reason why time and time again prints sell out, go for a premium, then fall back to essentially levels of support that would've existed on day one.
I suppose, indirectly, what I'm saying is that if you buy on the secondary market, straight after a print releass from someone after a fast buck is that you're naive (or rich, or both).
Errrr, no, people who flip prints don't in any way shape or form the international 'market' or any other form of market, they distort it.
Free markets thrive on transparency and willing seller/buyer transactions - far from 'helping' markets, this kind of activity manipulates markets. I feel you are only trying to justify your own actions and those of fellow (and you're gonna say you haven't flipped anything in the last year as a mitigant) flippers.
Other than Banksy releases of late, there's little this year that if you take 'flippers' out of the equation would've sold out in an instant, hence the reason why time and time again prints sell out, go for a premium, then fall back to essentially levels of support that would've existed on day one.
I suppose, indirectly, what I'm saying is that if you buy on the secondary market, straight after a print releass from someone after a fast buck is that you're naive (or rich, or both).
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POW Pictures on Walls, by Existencil on Dec 14, 2008 21:01:41 GMT 1, Robin - your wrong on a few counts.
I didn't sell on at inflated prices. The price was inflated because the market dictated that price. People pay what they think the art is worth. That's how the secondary market works.
Secondly, are you saying that POW do have an international presence? They don't. Are you also saying that prints selling out doesn't influence artist reputation? It does.
Robin - your wrong on a few counts.
I didn't sell on at inflated prices. The price was inflated because the market dictated that price. People pay what they think the art is worth. That's how the secondary market works.
Secondly, are you saying that POW do have an international presence? They don't. Are you also saying that prints selling out doesn't influence artist reputation? It does.
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POW Pictures on Walls, by They call me Stephen on Dec 14, 2008 21:04:42 GMT 1, I know Micallef was super pissed off with the amount of his works that were being flipped after the impure idols release driving prices up for those who actually wanted his prints.
POW aren't fools and are well aware that they could sell the vast majority of their artist's works for far higher than they actually do...they keep prices down for a reason yet the greed of many buyers makes me wonder if they should continue to do so. You flipping prints, postcards, books, flyers etc is doing neither POW nor the artist any favours. I understand people needing to sell works in order to finance other pieces but saying that you are playing “a vital role in feeding the international market” shows where your interest is.
POW have a huge international presence, have a look at the map on the bottom of this page...everyone on this website is aware of who POW are and what they do. People from this forum travelled from around the world to make POW's open day...this has nothing to do with your international spokeperson role
I know Micallef was super pissed off with the amount of his works that were being flipped after the impure idols release driving prices up for those who actually wanted his prints.
POW aren't fools and are well aware that they could sell the vast majority of their artist's works for far higher than they actually do...they keep prices down for a reason yet the greed of many buyers makes me wonder if they should continue to do so. You flipping prints, postcards, books, flyers etc is doing neither POW nor the artist any favours. I understand people needing to sell works in order to finance other pieces but saying that you are playing “a vital role in feeding the international market” shows where your interest is.
POW have a huge international presence, have a look at the map on the bottom of this page...everyone on this website is aware of who POW are and what they do. People from this forum travelled from around the world to make POW's open day...this has nothing to do with your international spokeperson role
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POW Pictures on Walls, by veralynn on Dec 14, 2008 21:08:24 GMT 1, Eh?
I didn't sell on at inflated prices? The price was inflated because the market dictated that price?
What utter bollocks, if you acknowledge that the prices were inflated by the market and you sold at that price then you sold at inflated prices.
The only defense here is that you didn't in part drive that market, which you did.
Re 'Secondly' of course POW have an international presence - how much wine have you had with your Sunday lunch?
Eh?
I didn't sell on at inflated prices? The price was inflated because the market dictated that price?
What utter bollocks, if you acknowledge that the prices were inflated by the market and you sold at that price then you sold at inflated prices.
The only defense here is that you didn't in part drive that market, which you did.
Re 'Secondly' of course POW have an international presence - how much wine have you had with your Sunday lunch?
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POW Pictures on Walls, by Existencil on Dec 14, 2008 21:15:33 GMT 1, They only have an international presence as far as brand awareness goes. They don't have an international outlet. I don't 'flip' prints, but flippers DO push demand. POW know this and it makes no sense from a business perspective to stop it. They maybe trying to stay true to the fans, but that could be their downfall. That's what I'm saying. I think much of the argument in this thread is from people who've missed out on releases and are venting some anger. IMO.
They only have an international presence as far as brand awareness goes. They don't have an international outlet. I don't 'flip' prints, but flippers DO push demand. POW know this and it makes no sense from a business perspective to stop it. They maybe trying to stay true to the fans, but that could be their downfall. That's what I'm saying. I think much of the argument in this thread is from people who've missed out on releases and are venting some anger. IMO.
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POW Pictures on Walls, by Existencil on Dec 14, 2008 21:20:27 GMT 1, Well, Pfft, you've proven yourself to be a real idiot in enough threads here to last you a lifetime. I'm not going to enter into an argument with you as you go on and on and on and on...
By the way, I just walked away with a Xenz and a Bast from the POW open day, which I'll be posting pictures of soon - in the frame. So black list? No. I don't know who your confusing me with? Yourself perhaps?
Well, Pfft, you've proven yourself to be a real idiot in enough threads here to last you a lifetime. I'm not going to enter into an argument with you as you go on and on and on and on...
By the way, I just walked away with a Xenz and a Bast from the POW open day, which I'll be posting pictures of soon - in the frame. So black list? No. I don't know who your confusing me with? Yourself perhaps?
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POW Pictures on Walls, by Existencil on Dec 14, 2008 21:27:25 GMT 1, Why would you getting a Nola and a Micallef prove that I'm banned? And I really doubt you got the prints you claimed to.
Your a prize-winning muppet.
Why would you getting a Nola and a Micallef prove that I'm banned? And I really doubt you got the prints you claimed to.
Your a prize-winning muppet.
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POW Pictures on Walls, by veralynn on Dec 14, 2008 21:28:26 GMT 1, They only have an international presence as far as brand awareness goes. They don't have an international outlet. I don't 'flip' prints, but flippers DO push demand. POW know this and it makes no sense from a business perspective to stop it. They maybe trying to stay true to the fans, but that could be their downfall. That's what I'm saying. I think much of the argument in this thread is from people who've missed out on releases and are venting some anger. IMO.
If the bulk of your business is internet based then you don't need an overseas outlet - you need an internationally recognised brand within the sector in which you operate.
In terms of awareness then I don' t think that there's many businesses out there which rival POW given their size and their target audience.
They only have an international presence as far as brand awareness goes. They don't have an international outlet. I don't 'flip' prints, but flippers DO push demand. POW know this and it makes no sense from a business perspective to stop it. They maybe trying to stay true to the fans, but that could be their downfall. That's what I'm saying. I think much of the argument in this thread is from people who've missed out on releases and are venting some anger. IMO. If the bulk of your business is internet based then you don't need an overseas outlet - you need an internationally recognised brand within the sector in which you operate. In terms of awareness then I don' t think that there's many businesses out there which rival POW given their size and their target audience. |
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Deleted
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January 1970
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POW Pictures on Walls, by Deleted on Dec 14, 2008 21:31:56 GMT 1, Why would you getting a Nola and a Micallef prove that I'm banned? And I really doubt you got the prints you claimed to. Your a prize-winning muppet.
ooooooooh get you, handbag's ;D
Why would you getting a Nola and a Micallef prove that I'm banned? And I really doubt you got the prints you claimed to. Your a prize-winning muppet. ooooooooh get you, handbag's ;D |
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POW Pictures on Walls, by veralynn on Dec 14, 2008 21:32:42 GMT 1, And what really, really pisses me off is people who attempt to punctuate and use grammar then can't tell the fucking difference between your and you're.
As in 'you're' a prize winning muppet, which might or might not be true re the muppet but you certainly have won some prizes of late pffffft (and your (see what I did) maths are good, as far as I recall).
And what really, really pisses me off is people who attempt to punctuate and use grammar then can't tell the fucking difference between your and you're.
As in 'you're' a prize winning muppet, which might or might not be true re the muppet but you certainly have won some prizes of late pffffft (and your (see what I did) maths are good, as far as I recall).
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POW Pictures on Walls, by pfffffffffft on Dec 14, 2008 21:34:55 GMT 1, And what really, really pisses me off is people who attempt to punctuate and use grammar then can't tell the f**king difference between your and you're. As in 'you're' a prize winning muppet, which might or might not be true re the muppet but you certainly have won some prizes of late pffffft (and your (see what I did) maths are good, as far as I recall).
You're a good one veralynn. xoxoxox. I am a big fan of the maths, and richy was happy my maths were right as he and jboy both got a VLH.
And what really, really pisses me off is people who attempt to punctuate and use grammar then can't tell the f**king difference between your and you're. As in 'you're' a prize winning muppet, which might or might not be true re the muppet but you certainly have won some prizes of late pffffft (and your (see what I did) maths are good, as far as I recall). You're a good one veralynn. xoxoxox. I am a big fan of the maths, and richy was happy my maths were right as he and jboy both got a VLH. |
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POW Pictures on Walls, by richy00 on Dec 14, 2008 21:57:57 GMT 1, did jboy get one too??
your maths is crap 
did jboy get one too?? your maths is crap |
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bullet
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January 2013
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POW Pictures on Walls, by bullet on Dec 14, 2008 21:58:46 GMT 1, true.
true.
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POW Pictures on Walls, by pfffffffffft on Dec 14, 2008 22:00:01 GMT 1, did jboy get one too?? your maths is crap
yes, isnt jboy your roomie? or did you, jboy, AND your roomie get one?
congrats again on the VLH by the way, wish one was heading here to me in brooklyn.
did jboy get one too?? your maths is crap yes, isnt jboy your roomie? or did you, jboy, AND your roomie get one? congrats again on the VLH by the way, wish one was heading here to me in brooklyn. |
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bullet
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POW Pictures on Walls, by bullet on Dec 14, 2008 22:06:32 GMT 1, no, just 1 shared mate
no, just 1 shared mate
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POW Pictures on Walls, by alsbabar on Dec 14, 2008 22:07:32 GMT 1, Well, Pfft, you've proven yourself to be a real idiot in enough threads here to last you a lifetime. I'm not going to enter into an argument with you as you go on and on and on and on... By the way, I just walked away with a Xenz and a Bast from the POW open day, which I'll be posting pictures of soon - in the frame. So black list? No. I don't know who your confusing me with? Yourself perhaps?
its only because you didnt buy online - POW at the open day werent taking names and details and then going through the C**t list - otherwise you would have been frogmarched out of the place!!!
Well, Pfft, you've proven yourself to be a real idiot in enough threads here to last you a lifetime. I'm not going to enter into an argument with you as you go on and on and on and on... By the way, I just walked away with a Xenz and a Bast from the POW open day, which I'll be posting pictures of soon - in the frame. So black list? No. I don't know who your confusing me with? Yourself perhaps? its only because you didnt buy online - POW at the open day werent taking names and details and then going through the C**t list - otherwise you would have been frogmarched out of the place!!! |
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robinbanks
Junior Member
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October 2007
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POW Pictures on Walls, by robinbanks on Dec 14, 2008 22:12:51 GMT 1, Robin - your wrong on a few counts. I didn't sell on at inflated prices. The price was inflated because the market dictated that price. People pay what they think the art is worth. That's how the secondary market works. Secondly, are you saying that POW do have an international presence? They don't. Are you also saying that prints selling out doesn't influence artist reputation? It does.
Stuey - I never said anything about print sales benefiting an artist's reputation - maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. I can say that if those prints are then sold a few days later on the secondary market for Xtimes their original price it does the artist more bad than good. The only person that benefit's from that is the flipper. By doing this you are not doing the artist or the international collector any favours.
Robin - your wrong on a few counts. I didn't sell on at inflated prices. The price was inflated because the market dictated that price. People pay what they think the art is worth. That's how the secondary market works. Secondly, are you saying that POW do have an international presence? They don't. Are you also saying that prints selling out doesn't influence artist reputation? It does. Stuey - I never said anything about print sales benefiting an artist's reputation - maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. I can say that if those prints are then sold a few days later on the secondary market for Xtimes their original price it does the artist more bad than good. The only person that benefit's from that is the flipper. By doing this you are not doing the artist or the international collector any favours. |
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micko
New Member
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October 2008
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POW Pictures on Walls, by micko on Dec 14, 2008 22:30:30 GMT 1, POW shouldn't play judge and jury. At least, not while they're a public, retail company. If they were selling their goods privately, well, that would be a different story. But, they aren't. It's just art and commerce people.
(I hope I gots me grammer rite)
POW shouldn't play judge and jury. At least, not while they're a public, retail company. If they were selling their goods privately, well, that would be a different story. But, they aren't. It's just art and commerce people.
(I hope I gots me grammer rite)
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POW Pictures on Walls, by griffermans on Dec 14, 2008 22:33:28 GMT 1, will someone please think of the children...
will someone please think of the children...
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POW Pictures on Walls, by pfffffffffft on Dec 14, 2008 22:33:35 GMT 1, POW shouldn't play judge and jury. At least, not while they're a public, retail company. If they were selling their goods privately, well, that would be a different story. But, they aren't. It's just art and commerce people. (I hope I gots me grammer rite)
why not, they have the right to sell to whomever they please. if flippers prevent collectors from getting prints at primary market rate why shouldnt they stop those who are interested in just making a buck off them?
If banksy or pow were interested in selling these for inflated rates immediately they would price them accordingly.
POW shouldn't play judge and jury. At least, not while they're a public, retail company. If they were selling their goods privately, well, that would be a different story. But, they aren't. It's just art and commerce people. (I hope I gots me grammer rite) why not, they have the right to sell to whomever they please. if flippers prevent collectors from getting prints at primary market rate why shouldnt they stop those who are interested in just making a buck off them? If banksy or pow were interested in selling these for inflated rates immediately they would price them accordingly. |
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POW Pictures on Walls, by griffermans on Dec 14, 2008 22:38:46 GMT 1, POW shouldn't play judge and jury. At least, not while they're a public, retail company. If they were selling their goods privately, well, that would be a different story. But, they aren't. It's just art and commerce people. (I hope I gots me grammer rite) why not, they have the right to sell to whomever they please. if flippers prevent collectors from getting prints at primary market rate why shouldnt they stop those who are interested in making a buck off them? If banksy or pow were interested in them selling for these inflated rates immediately they would price them accordingly.
Or just sell them for 10 days on Ebay themselves. That way the whole edition would naturally finds it's own way.
POW shouldn't play judge and jury. At least, not while they're a public, retail company. If they were selling their goods privately, well, that would be a different story. But, they aren't. It's just art and commerce people. (I hope I gots me grammer rite) why not, they have the right to sell to whomever they please. if flippers prevent collectors from getting prints at primary market rate why shouldnt they stop those who are interested in making a buck off them? If banksy or pow were interested in them selling for these inflated rates immediately they would price them accordingly. Or just sell them for 10 days on Ebay themselves. That way the whole edition would naturally finds it's own way. |
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POW Pictures on Walls, by richy00 on Dec 14, 2008 22:43:23 GMT 1, did jboy get one too?? your maths is crap yes, isnt jboy your roomie? or did you, jboy, AND your roomie get one? congrats again on the VLH by the way, wish one was heading here to me in brooklyn.
me, jboy and flatmate all got one.....
thanks again, lost my job  so winning this made me a great deal happier
dont be a retail designer in the credit crunch. note to self.
did jboy get one too?? your maths is crap yes, isnt jboy your roomie? or did you, jboy, AND your roomie get one? congrats again on the VLH by the way, wish one was heading here to me in brooklyn. me, jboy and flatmate all got one..... thanks again, lost my job so winning this made me a great deal happier dont be a retail designer in the credit crunch. note to self. |
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POW Pictures on Walls, by wiz on Dec 14, 2008 22:47:01 GMT 1, Sorry to hear about your job loss Richy! hope you will be ok.
Sorry to hear about your job loss Richy! hope you will be ok.
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micko
New Member
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October 2008
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POW Pictures on Walls, by micko on Dec 14, 2008 22:48:18 GMT 1, pfft: But they don't sell them to whoever they please, do they? And, that's my point. They sell them over the internet to whomever is on their email list, whoever buys a lottery ticket and whoever walks in the door. That's retail and that equals public + art + commerce! There's little-to-no prequalification to buy a print from POW. And, until they do that, which I don't think they should, I think that they should lay-off playing subjective judge and jury. Blacklisting people using an unpublished and un-standardized system draws eerie parallels to days gone by. I appreciate your stance and desires to keep costs manageable. I just don't think it's possible.
pfft: But they don't sell them to whoever they please, do they? And, that's my point. They sell them over the internet to whomever is on their email list, whoever buys a lottery ticket and whoever walks in the door. That's retail and that equals public + art + commerce! There's little-to-no prequalification to buy a print from POW. And, until they do that, which I don't think they should, I think that they should lay-off playing subjective judge and jury. Blacklisting people using an unpublished and un-standardized system draws eerie parallels to days gone by. I appreciate your stance and desires to keep costs manageable. I just don't think it's possible.
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POW Pictures on Walls, by alsbabar on Dec 14, 2008 22:52:28 GMT 1, why not, they have the right to sell to whomever they please. if flippers prevent collectors from getting prints at primary market rate why shouldnt they stop those who are interested in making a buck off them? If banksy or pow were interested in them selling for these inflated rates immediately they would price them accordingly. Or just sell them for 10 days on Ebay themselves. That way the whole edition would naturally finds it's own way.
Whatever people are mentioning or suggesting POW should do, has been done, POW used to have an ebay account - but that was some time ago. The reality is, the urban art scene has exploded in the last 12 months, so the way POW sold prior to then, needed to and has changed. Banksy prints now sell out in seconds, while Toxic Mary, when released took over 12 months to sell out. Back in the days, you could have bought more than 1 print, simply because the demand for them wasnt as high as they are today - hence why it is now 1 per household.
Certain criteria's are rightfully in place, not just by POW, but by other galleries, to prevent "flipping" - simply because the motivation shouldnt be money, but the love of art. POW management have been very transparent, if you email them they will give you a fair and reasonable response.
I would also like havana07 to elaborate more on why he has been blacklisted?
why not, they have the right to sell to whomever they please. if flippers prevent collectors from getting prints at primary market rate why shouldnt they stop those who are interested in making a buck off them? If banksy or pow were interested in them selling for these inflated rates immediately they would price them accordingly. Or just sell them for 10 days on Ebay themselves. That way the whole edition would naturally finds it's own way. Whatever people are mentioning or suggesting POW should do, has been done, POW used to have an ebay account - but that was some time ago. The reality is, the urban art scene has exploded in the last 12 months, so the way POW sold prior to then, needed to and has changed. Banksy prints now sell out in seconds, while Toxic Mary, when released took over 12 months to sell out. Back in the days, you could have bought more than 1 print, simply because the demand for them wasnt as high as they are today - hence why it is now 1 per household. Certain criteria's are rightfully in place, not just by POW, but by other galleries, to prevent "flipping" - simply because the motivation shouldnt be money, but the love of art. POW management have been very transparent, if you email them they will give you a fair and reasonable response. I would also like havana07 to elaborate more on why he has been blacklisted? |
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POW Pictures on Walls, by pfffffffffft on Dec 14, 2008 22:55:45 GMT 1, pfft: But they don't sell them to whoever they please, do they? And, that's my point. They sell them over the internet to whomever is on their email list, whoever buys a lottery ticket and whoever walks in the door. That's retail and that equals public + art + commerce! There's little-to-no prequalification to buy a print from POW. And, until they do that, which I don't think they should, I think that they should lay-off playing subjective judge and jury. Blacklisting people using an unpublished and un-standardized system draws eerie parallels to days gone by. I appreciate your stance and desires to keep costs manageable. I just don't think it's possible.
But thats where you're wrong, they do sell to whomever they please. They rightly make the assumption that anyone purchasing a print is planning to keep it, they then find the 10% or so who try to flip them on ebay and ban them thus ousting the undesirables.
I dont think it's unstandardized. It's pretty straightforward. You flip a print and you're banned.
But it's not only my desire to keep these prices affordable. It's apparently both POW and Banksys desire. If they worked off your premise then only the POW insiders would ever get a print. This way everyone has a fair shot until they're caught flipping.
Honestly, the more flippers banned, the more likely it is proper collectors will get a print. That simple.
pfft: But they don't sell them to whoever they please, do they? And, that's my point. They sell them over the internet to whomever is on their email list, whoever buys a lottery ticket and whoever walks in the door. That's retail and that equals public + art + commerce! There's little-to-no prequalification to buy a print from POW. And, until they do that, which I don't think they should, I think that they should lay-off playing subjective judge and jury. Blacklisting people using an unpublished and un-standardized system draws eerie parallels to days gone by. I appreciate your stance and desires to keep costs manageable. I just don't think it's possible. But thats where you're wrong, they do sell to whomever they please. They rightly make the assumption that anyone purchasing a print is planning to keep it, they then find the 10% or so who try to flip them on ebay and ban them thus ousting the undesirables. I dont think it's unstandardized. It's pretty straightforward. You flip a print and you're banned. But it's not only my desire to keep these prices affordable. It's apparently both POW and Banksys desire. If they worked off your premise then only the POW insiders would ever get a print. This way everyone has a fair shot until they're caught flipping. Honestly, the more flippers banned, the more likely it is proper collectors will get a print. That simple. |
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POW Pictures on Walls, by richy00 on Dec 14, 2008 22:56:35 GMT 1, Sorry to hear about your job loss Richy! hope you will be ok.
so do i!! just looking for another job at the moment but might have to sell a few things to pay the rent for the next month or so.. bit shit but ill live.
dface original anyone?
Sorry to hear about your job loss Richy! hope you will be ok. so do i!! just looking for another job at the moment but might have to sell a few things to pay the rent for the next month or so.. bit shit but ill live. dface original anyone? |
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POW Pictures on Walls, by graeme501 on Dec 14, 2008 22:59:25 GMT 1, maybe what POW should do is start to allow people to change the name of the original owner on their records from the next print release
then they will know exactly who is selling them and when they are selling
maybe what POW should do is start to allow people to change the name of the original owner on their records from the next print release
then they will know exactly who is selling them and when they are selling
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Deleted
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January 1970
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POW Pictures on Walls, by Deleted on Dec 14, 2008 23:05:22 GMT 1,
Whatever people are mentioning or suggesting POW should do, has been done, POW used to have an ebay account - but that was some time ago. The reality is, the urban art scene has exploded in the last 12 months, so the way POW sold prior to then, needed to and has changed. Banksy prints now sell out in seconds, while Toxic Mary, when released took over 12 months to sell out. Back in the days, you could have bought more than 1 print, simply because the demand for them wasnt as high as they are today - hence why it is now 1 per household.
You could buy more than one print from POW back in the spring 2008, not sure if that included a Banksy print as they had long sold-out.
Whatever people are mentioning or suggesting POW should do, has been done, POW used to have an ebay account - but that was some time ago. The reality is, the urban art scene has exploded in the last 12 months, so the way POW sold prior to then, needed to and has changed. Banksy prints now sell out in seconds, while Toxic Mary, when released took over 12 months to sell out. Back in the days, you could have bought more than 1 print, simply because the demand for them wasnt as high as they are today - hence why it is now 1 per household.
You could buy more than one print from POW back in the spring 2008, not sure if that included a Banksy print as they had long sold-out.
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so winning this made me a great deal happier
