jonnyx
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misterx
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hugo chavez has died, by misterx on Mar 6, 2013 3:56:08 GMT 1, I agree. Much maligned by the west, but much loved by his people( the poor ones at least).
I agree. Much maligned by the west, but much loved by his people( the poor ones at least).
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hugo chavez has died, by Coach on Mar 6, 2013 11:17:20 GMT 1, Much loved leader by his people.
Not without faults.
Love this quote.
"George W Bush, you are a donkey Mr Bush"
Much loved leader by his people.
Not without faults.
Love this quote.
"George W Bush, you are a donkey Mr Bush"
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Trevorm
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hugo chavez has died, by Trevorm on Mar 6, 2013 11:29:28 GMT 1, He also referred to Bush at a UN meeting by saying that "the Devil is here, I know because I can still smell the sulphur"
He wasn't too keen on the USA
He also referred to Bush at a UN meeting by saying that "the Devil is here, I know because I can still smell the sulphur"
He wasn't too keen on the USA
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floubi
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hugo chavez has died, by floubi on Mar 6, 2013 11:33:26 GMT 1, Not much loved by all the middle class people that had to runaway from their country....
Not much loved by all the middle class people that had to runaway from their country....
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hugo chavez has died, by Happy Shopper on Mar 6, 2013 11:38:40 GMT 1, No love for him from my Venezuelan friends... Only stories about extreme crime, and property (apartments) being forcibly "redistributed"... and remaining empty.
No love for him from my Venezuelan friends... Only stories about extreme crime, and property (apartments) being forcibly "redistributed"... and remaining empty.
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misterx
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hugo chavez has died, by misterx on Mar 6, 2013 12:00:04 GMT 1, Any leader that genuinely uplifts a poverty stricken people gets a thumbs-up from me.
He invested Venezuela's oil wealth into social programs including state-run food markets, cash benefits for poor families, free health clinics and education programs thereby lifting millions from poverty.He built 22 universities,making Venezuela the 5th most studious population in the world.
Council house scams and govt incompetence are nothing new to the UK, the US or OZ. Whilst he may well have made mistakes, what he did for his people, something your average western government chooses not to do,has to be applauded.
Oh, and he was also the only leader brave enough to stand up to Bush during the Iraq War....nice one Hugo.
Any leader that genuinely uplifts a poverty stricken people gets a thumbs-up from me.
He invested Venezuela's oil wealth into social programs including state-run food markets, cash benefits for poor families, free health clinics and education programs thereby lifting millions from poverty.He built 22 universities,making Venezuela the 5th most studious population in the world.
Council house scams and govt incompetence are nothing new to the UK, the US or OZ. Whilst he may well have made mistakes, what he did for his people, something your average western government chooses not to do,has to be applauded.
Oh, and he was also the only leader brave enough to stand up to Bush during the Iraq War....nice one Hugo.
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eschiff
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hugo chavez has died, by eschiff on Mar 6, 2013 12:07:21 GMT 1, Much loved leader by his people. Not without faults. Love this quote. "George W Bush, you are a donkey Mr Bush"
Much loved? That's just not true. People in the west like him cause of his bravado towards bush. People in Venezuela suffered under hyper inflation and joblessness. Good riddance, happy days for the Venezuelans I know.
Much loved leader by his people. Not without faults. Love this quote. "George W Bush, you are a donkey Mr Bush" Much loved? That's just not true. People in the west like him cause of his bravado towards bush. People in Venezuela suffered under hyper inflation and joblessness. Good riddance, happy days for the Venezuelans I know. |
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floubi
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hugo chavez has died, by floubi on Mar 6, 2013 12:21:02 GMT 1, Well said eschiff!!! The power of the media is crazy...
Well said eschiff!!! The power of the media is crazy...
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misterx
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hugo chavez has died, by misterx on Mar 6, 2013 12:21:20 GMT 1, He won four straight elections, with the last one garnering 63% of the vote. He was very much loved by them.
You must be referring to the 37%...
He won four straight elections, with the last one garnering 63% of the vote. He was very much loved by them.
You must be referring to the 37%...
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eschiff
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hugo chavez has died, by eschiff on Mar 6, 2013 12:49:19 GMT 1, He won four straight elections, with the last one garnering 63% of the vote. He was very much loved by them. You must be referring to the 37%...
Easy to win elections in a military state. Any wonder police flooded the streets after his death? Stores closed early? Venezuela is finally going to have the opportunity to benefit from its natural resources and human capital. Chavez was a blowhard concerned about his image and bank account.
He won four straight elections, with the last one garnering 63% of the vote. He was very much loved by them. You must be referring to the 37%... Easy to win elections in a military state. Any wonder police flooded the streets after his death? Stores closed early? Venezuela is finally going to have the opportunity to benefit from its natural resources and human capital. Chavez was a blowhard concerned about his image and bank account. |
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eschiff
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hugo chavez has died, by eschiff on Mar 6, 2013 12:56:23 GMT 1, m.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20795781
'As a result, Mr Chavez bequeaths a nation beset by crumbling infrastructure, unsustainable public spending and underperforming industry.'
- but sure, the gini index fell and that's a good thing, but the guy did wayyyy more bad than good
m.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20795781'As a result, Mr Chavez bequeaths a nation beset by crumbling infrastructure, unsustainable public spending and underperforming industry.' - but sure, the gini index fell and that's a good thing, but the guy did wayyyy more bad than good
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misterx
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hugo chavez has died, by misterx on Mar 6, 2013 13:02:30 GMT 1, You dont seem to know what your talking about eschiff or you are just making things up as you go along!
First it was hyperinflation and joblessness, now its a "military state" that won chavez 4 straight elections?
Here is what Jimmy Carter said about Venezuela's "dictatorship" in Sept 2012: "As a matter of fact, of the 92 elections that we've monitored, I would say that the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world."
Carter won a Nobel prize for his work through the election-monitoring Carter Center, which has observed and certified past Venezuelan elections. But because Washington sought for more than a decade to delegitimise Venezuela's government, his viewpoint is only rarely reported. His latest comments went unreported in almost all of the US media.
Venezuela WAS enjoying the fruits of its resources wealth. Remember the millions of people uplifted from poverty? guess where the $$$ came from?
You seem hellbent on proving how bad Venezuela was under his presidency when all the facts show otherwise.The power of the media is crazy eh!
You dont seem to know what your talking about eschiff or you are just making things up as you go along!
First it was hyperinflation and joblessness, now its a "military state" that won chavez 4 straight elections?
Here is what Jimmy Carter said about Venezuela's "dictatorship" in Sept 2012: "As a matter of fact, of the 92 elections that we've monitored, I would say that the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world."
Carter won a Nobel prize for his work through the election-monitoring Carter Center, which has observed and certified past Venezuelan elections. But because Washington sought for more than a decade to delegitimise Venezuela's government, his viewpoint is only rarely reported. His latest comments went unreported in almost all of the US media.
Venezuela WAS enjoying the fruits of its resources wealth. Remember the millions of people uplifted from poverty? guess where the $$$ came from?
You seem hellbent on proving how bad Venezuela was under his presidency when all the facts show otherwise.The power of the media is crazy eh!
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eschiff
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hugo chavez has died, by eschiff on Mar 6, 2013 13:03:40 GMT 1, You dont seem to know what your talking about eschiff or you are just making things up as you go along! First it was hyperinflation and joblessness, now its a "military state" that won chavez 4 straight elections? Here is what Jimmy Carter said about Venezuela's "dictatorship" in Sept 2012: "As a matter of fact, of the 92 elections that we've monitored, I would say that the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world." Carter won a Nobel prize for his work through the election-monitoring Carter Center, which has observed and certified past Venezuelan elections. But because Washington sought for more than a decade to delegitimise Venezuela's government, his viewpoint is only rarely reported. His latest comments went unreported in almost all of the US media. Venezuela WAS enjoying the fruits of its resources wealth. Remember the millions of people uplifted from poverty? guess where the $$$ came from? You seem hellbent on proving how bad Venezuela was under his presidency when all the facts show otherwise.The power of the media is crazy eh!
Not many Venezuelan friends huh?
You dont seem to know what your talking about eschiff or you are just making things up as you go along! First it was hyperinflation and joblessness, now its a "military state" that won chavez 4 straight elections? Here is what Jimmy Carter said about Venezuela's "dictatorship" in Sept 2012: "As a matter of fact, of the 92 elections that we've monitored, I would say that the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world." Carter won a Nobel prize for his work through the election-monitoring Carter Center, which has observed and certified past Venezuelan elections. But because Washington sought for more than a decade to delegitimise Venezuela's government, his viewpoint is only rarely reported. His latest comments went unreported in almost all of the US media. Venezuela WAS enjoying the fruits of its resources wealth. Remember the millions of people uplifted from poverty? guess where the $$$ came from? You seem hellbent on proving how bad Venezuela was under his presidency when all the facts show otherwise.The power of the media is crazy eh! Not many Venezuelan friends huh? |
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eschiff
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hugo chavez has died, by eschiff on Mar 6, 2013 13:05:34 GMT 1, And it's hyperinflation, joblessness and a military state. Plus an overeliance on oil which has over leveraged the economy leading to a decline in other industries...that country is a mess.
Lifting people out of poverty is excellent. Doing it at the expense of the country's future is incredibly short sighted.
And it's hyperinflation, joblessness and a military state. Plus an overeliance on oil which has over leveraged the economy leading to a decline in other industries...that country is a mess.
Lifting people out of poverty is excellent. Doing it at the expense of the country's future is incredibly short sighted.
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misterx
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hugo chavez has died, by misterx on Mar 6, 2013 14:11:01 GMT 1, Look, we obviously differ here. But one thing I will say before I sign off; whilst Chavez was no saint, what he did for the majority of its people,in a time when our own govt's couldnt give a toss about us, was nothing short of a miracle. The countries future has not been ruined because of Chavez . As is shown by some of the most significant indicators, Chavez racked up an economic record that most western countries could only dream of. Chavez’s first decade in office saw Venezuelan GDP more than double and both infant mortality and unemployment almost halved. The Guardian reports that its “extreme poverty” rate fell from 23.4 percent in 1999 to 8.5 percent just a decade later. In all, that left the country with the third lowest poverty rate in Latin America. Additionally, college enrollment has more than doubled, millions of people have access to health care for the first time and the number of people eligible for public pensions has quadrupled.
Those pesky Venezuelans sure were dumb voting HC into office on four separate occasions eh?What were they thinking?
Could he have developed the economy better? Sure. Couldnt they all though?
If you want to nitpick Chavez' economic record you will find issues. This is also true for your own government, wherever you may live.
Hopefully we don't see a ruling class again in Venezuela, but i wouldnt bet on it.
And no, no Venezuelan friends, which means I have no emotional tie to the debate, I guess.
Look, we obviously differ here. But one thing I will say before I sign off; whilst Chavez was no saint, what he did for the majority of its people,in a time when our own govt's couldnt give a toss about us, was nothing short of a miracle. The countries future has not been ruined because of Chavez . As is shown by some of the most significant indicators, Chavez racked up an economic record that most western countries could only dream of. Chavez’s first decade in office saw Venezuelan GDP more than double and both infant mortality and unemployment almost halved. The Guardian reports that its “extreme poverty” rate fell from 23.4 percent in 1999 to 8.5 percent just a decade later. In all, that left the country with the third lowest poverty rate in Latin America. Additionally, college enrollment has more than doubled, millions of people have access to health care for the first time and the number of people eligible for public pensions has quadrupled.
Those pesky Venezuelans sure were dumb voting HC into office on four separate occasions eh?What were they thinking?
Could he have developed the economy better? Sure. Couldnt they all though?
If you want to nitpick Chavez' economic record you will find issues. This is also true for your own government, wherever you may live.
Hopefully we don't see a ruling class again in Venezuela, but i wouldnt bet on it.
And no, no Venezuelan friends, which means I have no emotional tie to the debate, I guess.
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floubi
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hugo chavez has died, by floubi on Mar 6, 2013 14:48:21 GMT 1, Look, we obviously differ here. But one thing I will say before I sign off; whilst Chavez was no saint, what he did for the majority of its people,in a time when our own govt's couldnt give a toss about us, was nothing short of a miracle. The countries future has not been ruined because of Chavez . As is shown by some of the most significant indicators, Chavez racked up an economic record that most western countries could only dream of. Chavez’s first decade in office saw Venezuelan GDP more than double and both infant mortality and unemployment almost halved. The Guardian reports that its “extreme poverty” rate fell from 23.4 percent in 1999 to 8.5 percent just a decade later. In all, that left the country with the third lowest poverty rate in Latin America. Additionally, college enrollment has more than doubled, millions of people have access to health care for the first time and the number of people eligible for public pensions has quadrupled. Those pesky Venezuelans sure were dumb voting HC into office on four separate occasions eh?What were they thinking? Could he have developed the economy better? Sure. Couldnt they all though? If you want to nitpick Chavez' economic record you will find issues. This is also true for your own government, wherever you may live. Hopefully we don't see a ruling class again in Venezuela, but i wouldnt bet on it. And no, no Venezuelan friends, which means I have no emotional tie to the debate, I guess.
Have you been there those last years??
Look, we obviously differ here. But one thing I will say before I sign off; whilst Chavez was no saint, what he did for the majority of its people,in a time when our own govt's couldnt give a toss about us, was nothing short of a miracle. The countries future has not been ruined because of Chavez . As is shown by some of the most significant indicators, Chavez racked up an economic record that most western countries could only dream of. Chavez’s first decade in office saw Venezuelan GDP more than double and both infant mortality and unemployment almost halved. The Guardian reports that its “extreme poverty” rate fell from 23.4 percent in 1999 to 8.5 percent just a decade later. In all, that left the country with the third lowest poverty rate in Latin America. Additionally, college enrollment has more than doubled, millions of people have access to health care for the first time and the number of people eligible for public pensions has quadrupled. Those pesky Venezuelans sure were dumb voting HC into office on four separate occasions eh?What were they thinking? Could he have developed the economy better? Sure. Couldnt they all though? If you want to nitpick Chavez' economic record you will find issues. This is also true for your own government, wherever you may live. Hopefully we don't see a ruling class again in Venezuela, but i wouldnt bet on it. And no, no Venezuelan friends, which means I have no emotional tie to the debate, I guess. Misterx, I think that if eschiff asked you if you have Venezuelan friends is not a matter of emotions, it's more about knowing the REAL situation except from the news, books.... Have you been there those last years?? |
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Deleted
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hugo chavez has died, by Deleted on Mar 6, 2013 23:32:02 GMT 1, Look, we obviously differ here. But one thing I will say before I sign off; whilst Chavez was no saint, what he did for the majority of its people,in a time when our own govt's couldnt give a toss about us, was nothing short of a miracle. The countries future has not been ruined because of Chavez . As is shown by some of the most significant indicators, Chavez racked up an economic record that most western countries could only dream of. Chavez’s first decade in office saw Venezuelan GDP more than double and both infant mortality and unemployment almost halved. The Guardian reports that its “extreme poverty” rate fell from 23.4 percent in 1999 to 8.5 percent just a decade later. In all, that left the country with the third lowest poverty rate in Latin America. Additionally, college enrollment has more than doubled, millions of people have access to health care for the first time and the number of people eligible for public pensions has quadrupled. Those pesky Venezuelans sure were dumb voting HC into office on four separate occasions eh?What were they thinking? Could he have developed the economy better? Sure. Couldnt they all though? If you want to nitpick Chavez' economic record you will find issues. This is also true for your own government, wherever you may live. Hopefully we don't see a ruling class again in Venezuela, but i wouldnt bet on it. And no, no Venezuelan friends, which means I have no emotional tie to the debate, I guess.
Look, we obviously differ here. But one thing I will say before I sign off; whilst Chavez was no saint, what he did for the majority of its people,in a time when our own govt's couldnt give a toss about us, was nothing short of a miracle. The countries future has not been ruined because of Chavez . As is shown by some of the most significant indicators, Chavez racked up an economic record that most western countries could only dream of. Chavez’s first decade in office saw Venezuelan GDP more than double and both infant mortality and unemployment almost halved. The Guardian reports that its “extreme poverty” rate fell from 23.4 percent in 1999 to 8.5 percent just a decade later. In all, that left the country with the third lowest poverty rate in Latin America. Additionally, college enrollment has more than doubled, millions of people have access to health care for the first time and the number of people eligible for public pensions has quadrupled. Those pesky Venezuelans sure were dumb voting HC into office on four separate occasions eh?What were they thinking? Could he have developed the economy better? Sure. Couldnt they all though? If you want to nitpick Chavez' economic record you will find issues. This is also true for your own government, wherever you may live. Hopefully we don't see a ruling class again in Venezuela, but i wouldnt bet on it. And no, no Venezuelan friends, which means I have no emotional tie to the debate, I guess. Couldn't agree more, very succinct and to the point. Well said. The facts speak for themselves. |
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eschiff
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hugo chavez has died, by eschiff on Mar 7, 2013 0:20:24 GMT 1, ok should i quote stats now?
Inflation is up to 31% crippling the economy and destroying the middle class. Homocide has almost doubled (from 25 per 100k to 45 per 100k). The exchange rate has gone up 400% killing VZ exports and again, destorying everyone not involved in the oil business.
If you lived in Venzuela under chavez and were extremely poor, or in the oil business, you loved him. The other 90% of the population hated him.
again, closing the GINI index was wonderful (though many argue he did this by spreading poverty rather than raising the standard of the poor...GDP/Capita has only doubled under him, far below similar economies) and i give him some credit for that (especially as near neighbors brazil has exploded) but to pretend venezuela is some mecca of education and forward thinking now...there's no debate. that's just wrong. I mean, Maduro is currently accusing the US of giving chavez cancer. Yes, the VP of Venezuela is making this assertion.
He took over in a coup in '92 (actually the coup failed, he was pardoned and took control in '98) and controlled every state institution without a clue how to run them. the amount of money that country wasted...we could be talking about him as someone that really made a difference in latin america, rather than a populist president who gave handouts to his supporters.
He jailed journalists and harassed the media who questioned his politics. According to Al-Jazeera (the best news outlet currently IMO), he tried to have his political opponents murdered: www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2011/05/20115115856153893.html
but hey, he hated bush so that's something huh?
ok should i quote stats now? Inflation is up to 31% crippling the economy and destroying the middle class. Homocide has almost doubled (from 25 per 100k to 45 per 100k). The exchange rate has gone up 400% killing VZ exports and again, destorying everyone not involved in the oil business. If you lived in Venzuela under chavez and were extremely poor, or in the oil business, you loved him. The other 90% of the population hated him. again, closing the GINI index was wonderful (though many argue he did this by spreading poverty rather than raising the standard of the poor...GDP/Capita has only doubled under him, far below similar economies) and i give him some credit for that (especially as near neighbors brazil has exploded) but to pretend venezuela is some mecca of education and forward thinking now...there's no debate. that's just wrong. I mean, Maduro is currently accusing the US of giving chavez cancer. Yes, the VP of Venezuela is making this assertion. He took over in a coup in '92 (actually the coup failed, he was pardoned and took control in '98) and controlled every state institution without a clue how to run them. the amount of money that country wasted...we could be talking about him as someone that really made a difference in latin america, rather than a populist president who gave handouts to his supporters. He jailed journalists and harassed the media who questioned his politics. According to Al-Jazeera (the best news outlet currently IMO), he tried to have his political opponents murdered: www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2011/05/20115115856153893.htmlbut hey, he hated bush so that's something huh? |
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misterx
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hugo chavez has died, by misterx on Mar 7, 2013 1:25:17 GMT 1, How can you say 90% of the population hate him when he won 63% of the vote during his last election? What are you on about? Free and fair elections were conducted. This is not in dispute anywhere, except with you.
If you didnt like the man thats fine eschiff,no problem, I respect your opinion, but making things up to suit your position is not acceptable.
Its good to see you are concerned about the Middle classes though.
Pity you dont kick up a fuss about the middle classes throughout Western Europe and the States who are being squeezed more and more by austerity and TARP etc....unemployment up,taxation up, housing bubbles bursting(even though Greenspan denied the existance of a housing bubble, remember?), poverty that hasnt been seen in 50 years?
Like I said, a saint he was not. But he will be sorely missed.
How can you say 90% of the population hate him when he won 63% of the vote during his last election? What are you on about? Free and fair elections were conducted. This is not in dispute anywhere, except with you.
If you didnt like the man thats fine eschiff,no problem, I respect your opinion, but making things up to suit your position is not acceptable.
Its good to see you are concerned about the Middle classes though.
Pity you dont kick up a fuss about the middle classes throughout Western Europe and the States who are being squeezed more and more by austerity and TARP etc....unemployment up,taxation up, housing bubbles bursting(even though Greenspan denied the existance of a housing bubble, remember?), poverty that hasnt been seen in 50 years?
Like I said, a saint he was not. But he will be sorely missed.
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floubi
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hugo chavez has died, by floubi on Mar 7, 2013 9:03:06 GMT 1, I really don't like to talk about politics and on top of it in an art forum.... but when I read all that, I just can't stay like that....
I understand that people from other countries likes him, it's a kind of "viva la revolution" thing. People like the idea of the Robin wood thing, as the media says. I would maybe think the same if my family was not Venezuelan....
Misterx, I think you're right about the election, free and fair.... but you have to consider ALL the Venezuelan people that left the country because of Chavez. If you take all the Venezuelan people, inside and the ones that had to runaway and dind't vote.... yes, a looooot more than 37% were against him.
Having 63% of the vote, winning elections doesn't mean you're a good person, we all know that, take your history book!!
Controlling ALL the media, don't you think there is something wrong? Something hidden?
I think some of his ideas were good, but it was all utopic and lies.... If what was written in the book was true, I would maybe be the first one going to live there!
But after seeing all my middle class family and their friends running away from a country they love SO MUCH, losing EVERYTHING and other members still living there in such a big danger because they couldn't find any other solution, I just can't read this topic without saying all that....
Viva la revolution, RIP Chavez, and stay there.... in peace this time....
I really don't like to talk about politics and on top of it in an art forum.... but when I read all that, I just can't stay like that....
I understand that people from other countries likes him, it's a kind of "viva la revolution" thing. People like the idea of the Robin wood thing, as the media says. I would maybe think the same if my family was not Venezuelan....
Misterx, I think you're right about the election, free and fair.... but you have to consider ALL the Venezuelan people that left the country because of Chavez. If you take all the Venezuelan people, inside and the ones that had to runaway and dind't vote.... yes, a looooot more than 37% were against him.
Having 63% of the vote, winning elections doesn't mean you're a good person, we all know that, take your history book!!
Controlling ALL the media, don't you think there is something wrong? Something hidden?
I think some of his ideas were good, but it was all utopic and lies.... If what was written in the book was true, I would maybe be the first one going to live there!
But after seeing all my middle class family and their friends running away from a country they love SO MUCH, losing EVERYTHING and other members still living there in such a big danger because they couldn't find any other solution, I just can't read this topic without saying all that....
Viva la revolution, RIP Chavez, and stay there.... in peace this time....
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eschiff
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hugo chavez has died, by eschiff on Mar 7, 2013 9:04:34 GMT 1, Sorry missed by you perhaps. Not by the Venezuelans.
And not doubting your economic acumen, but without middle class growth a country will fail to prosper, hence look at the GDP per capita figures.
Hard to vote for other candidates as well when Chavez is trying to have them murdered by FARC. but hey you gotta do what you gotta do right?
Sorry missed by you perhaps. Not by the Venezuelans.
And not doubting your economic acumen, but without middle class growth a country will fail to prosper, hence look at the GDP per capita figures.
Hard to vote for other candidates as well when Chavez is trying to have them murdered by FARC. but hey you gotta do what you gotta do right?
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eschiff
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hugo chavez has died, by eschiff on Mar 7, 2013 9:19:56 GMT 1, Sorry floubi, didn't see your post before I posted. Talking politics is never easy, good to have a discussion though and thanks for contributing.
NuArt, anything constructive to add?
Sorry floubi, didn't see your post before I posted. Talking politics is never easy, good to have a discussion though and thanks for contributing.
NuArt, anything constructive to add?
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floubi
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hugo chavez has died, by floubi on Mar 7, 2013 9:38:19 GMT 1, Yes, we almost post at the same time! I think it's always good having people that have differents opinions in politics... and maybe Nuart, Misterx you and me have the same opinions...
But in that case it's more then that.... it's just about true facts...
Yes, we almost post at the same time! I think it's always good having people that have differents opinions in politics... and maybe Nuart, Misterx you and me have the same opinions...
But in that case it's more then that.... it's just about true facts...
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hugo chavez has died, by Jeezuz Jones Snr on Mar 7, 2013 9:42:08 GMT 1, Genuine question, will he be buried in his track suit?? Odds on!!
Genuine question, will he be buried in his track suit?? Odds on!!
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