cafebrazil
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August 2013
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'Gateway' art and the relative morality of flipping, by cafebrazil on Aug 1, 2014 4:02:44 GMT 1, 'Gateway prints conversation originally from "Art Alliance: Show by Shepard Fairey, ft DFace, Swoon & more" thread
Read more: urbanartassociation.com/post/new/117595#ixzz396ZVogxh
Very good point on flipping and the concentration of print sales in big metropolitan cities. I think standing in line flipping is a lot more work than buying online and flipping, so in some sense the buyer pays for the flipper's time invested. Also in-person purchases are not available to buyers far away so flippers selling at what I consider fair prices, like jacksonheights on Ebay, are actually providing the service that many collectors are asking for anyway. I'm in Japan, so if Obey sold me the Endless Power print at retail they would charge me $300+$166 shipping=$466 to Japan. Jacksonheights is charging me $500 + $40 shipping=$540, a nominal mark-up!
Also consider the phenomena of 'gateway' prints. Artists like Shepard Fairey and Murakami typically release their prints at below market value. As a result, a newbie with little money and good information can buy a few prints at below market and sell a few in order to afford to build the collection. So lets say there is a college student with $1200 of rent/food money in Chicago. S/he can go to Art Alliance to buy 4 prints (say Retna, Dface, Invader, Fairey) for $1200 and sell two (say Dface and Fairey) for $1000-$1200 thus being able to collect her/his long desired first Invader and Retna prints while being able to afford to keep them. The artists selling at below market increase the number of collectors. I myself would have never been able to afford to collect anything without gateway prints.
Finally, while there is a distinction between a quick flip, and buying a print for $300 now then selling it for $600 one year later (more likely to be a collector in the second case)--I'm not sure that one who flips for a profit even many years later can necessarily claim the high ground in relation to short term flippers. The late sellers still benefit from the gateway print phenomena but in a slightly different way. For instance, those fortunate/prescient enough to have collected Banksy early on benefited in a big way. No one will be upset if someone flips a Banksy bought for ยฃ500 for its current market value. If there is some sort of moral imperative to keep the art accessible, then we would flip our stuff for less than market value, even when we could clearly make a lot more. (There are those who flip at cost, God bless them, but I have yet to see anyone flip something at less than half the market value.)
We all want bargains to add to our collection, and live in the hope to add to the collective value of our holdings. Admittedly, while the buy+quick flip cycle may be sometimes annoying, I don't mind at all if collectors do it. I just can't stand it when dealers do it as some of the dealers have insider access they can exploit that the average collector cannot. Again, I know there is some cognitive dissonance here, but I am all for the underdog who can build a collection out of a couple of thousand dollars, since there may be no other way for that person to accumulate art.
'Gateway prints conversation originally from "Art Alliance: Show by Shepard Fairey, ft DFace, Swoon & more" thread Read more: urbanartassociation.com/post/new/117595#ixzz396ZVogxhVery good point on flipping and the concentration of print sales in big metropolitan cities. I think standing in line flipping is a lot more work than buying online and flipping, so in some sense the buyer pays for the flipper's time invested. Also in-person purchases are not available to buyers far away so flippers selling at what I consider fair prices, like jacksonheights on Ebay, are actually providing the service that many collectors are asking for anyway. I'm in Japan, so if Obey sold me the Endless Power print at retail they would charge me $300+$166 shipping=$466 to Japan. Jacksonheights is charging me $500 + $40 shipping=$540, a nominal mark-up! Also consider the phenomena of 'gateway' prints. Artists like Shepard Fairey and Murakami typically release their prints at below market value. As a result, a newbie with little money and good information can buy a few prints at below market and sell a few in order to afford to build the collection. So lets say there is a college student with $1200 of rent/food money in Chicago. S/he can go to Art Alliance to buy 4 prints (say Retna, Dface, Invader, Fairey) for $1200 and sell two (say Dface and Fairey) for $1000-$1200 thus being able to collect her/his long desired first Invader and Retna prints while being able to afford to keep them. The artists selling at below market increase the number of collectors. I myself would have never been able to afford to collect anything without gateway prints. Finally, while there is a distinction between a quick flip, and buying a print for $300 now then selling it for $600 one year later (more likely to be a collector in the second case)--I'm not sure that one who flips for a profit even many years later can necessarily claim the high ground in relation to short term flippers. The late sellers still benefit from the gateway print phenomena but in a slightly different way. For instance, those fortunate/prescient enough to have collected Banksy early on benefited in a big way. No one will be upset if someone flips a Banksy bought for ยฃ500 for its current market value. If there is some sort of moral imperative to keep the art accessible, then we would flip our stuff for less than market value, even when we could clearly make a lot more. (There are those who flip at cost, God bless them, but I have yet to see anyone flip something at less than half the market value.) We all want bargains to add to our collection, and live in the hope to add to the collective value of our holdings. Admittedly, while the buy+quick flip cycle may be sometimes annoying, I don't mind at all if collectors do it. I just can't stand it when dealers do it as some of the dealers have insider access they can exploit that the average collector cannot. Again, I know there is some cognitive dissonance here, but I am all for the underdog who can build a collection out of a couple of thousand dollars, since there may be no other way for that person to accumulate art. |
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'Gateway' art and the relative morality of flipping, by Someones Brain on Aug 1, 2014 8:58:48 GMT 1, After reading your post I conclude you should probably rename this thread into the "How I tried (in vain) to properly justify flipping prints on a short-term basis" thread. There have been many threads on many art/poster etc. boards/forums on this topic and still this whole flipping thing is as much annoying as those foolish attempts to justify it.
I've collected gigposters, art prints and urban/street art for more than 15 years now and I know it's part of the game and you cannot really get rid of it. Yet it's still annoying.
In an ideal world people would buy prints and art works they like and that they want to either display at their home, work etc. or that they at least want to collect for whatever reasons. Flippers (try to) make a profit at the cost of the folks that are collecting this kind of stuff. Thus I'm very happy that there are (and that I also met) a lot of good people on this board/forum and on most other boards/forums as well that help each other out, that sell for cost "when the wife doesn't like the last purchase" and that do not immediatly flip a new release to make a profit at the cost of fellow board members.
Call me naive if you want but that whole art collecting thing is my hobby and thus I want to see the good side of it first (and I try to avoid dealing with downsides like flipping). So, 'gateway print' my ass.
After reading your post I conclude you should probably rename this thread into the "How I tried (in vain) to properly justify flipping prints on a short-term basis" thread. There have been many threads on many art/poster etc. boards/forums on this topic and still this whole flipping thing is as much annoying as those foolish attempts to justify it.
I've collected gigposters, art prints and urban/street art for more than 15 years now and I know it's part of the game and you cannot really get rid of it. Yet it's still annoying.
In an ideal world people would buy prints and art works they like and that they want to either display at their home, work etc. or that they at least want to collect for whatever reasons. Flippers (try to) make a profit at the cost of the folks that are collecting this kind of stuff. Thus I'm very happy that there are (and that I also met) a lot of good people on this board/forum and on most other boards/forums as well that help each other out, that sell for cost "when the wife doesn't like the last purchase" and that do not immediatly flip a new release to make a profit at the cost of fellow board members.
Call me naive if you want but that whole art collecting thing is my hobby and thus I want to see the good side of it first (and I try to avoid dealing with downsides like flipping). So, 'gateway print' my ass.
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johnnyh
Junior Member
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March 2011
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'Gateway' art and the relative morality of flipping, by johnnyh on Aug 1, 2014 9:43:19 GMT 1, Must say I have and never will buy a flipped print. Have bought them where the seller/collector makes a profit likewise a gallery makes a profit but just cannot be arsed to support the flipping concept. There is not actually much of a shortage of work out there to buy so I just do not bother. There are always more pieces I would like to have than I get etc so do not do the instant release thing....I'd also be crap at it all that f5 thing, then annoyed etc I did not get it. No thanks!!!!
Re the flipper not a great lover of them or the concept but I can understand it and do not actually have a massive issue with it. Eg If someone wants to buy at that price etc that's their business.
However those that are flipping and pretend their not really get on my fukin nerves. If I don't flip it someone else will etc etc. Or those trying to justify it. Always first in the line for a freebie and first to screw another member on a bit of luck they had getting something they did not want.
they say it never happens etc but great member diff continent we have never met who won a raffle for a NWalker Hong Kong piece now I like NW and having lived in HK it was a nice piece for me. He just passed it along no extras etc...now there's morals for you
it it is not forgotten. So does and should happen more on here
Must say I have and never will buy a flipped print. Have bought them where the seller/collector makes a profit likewise a gallery makes a profit but just cannot be arsed to support the flipping concept. There is not actually much of a shortage of work out there to buy so I just do not bother. There are always more pieces I would like to have than I get etc so do not do the instant release thing....I'd also be crap at it all that f5 thing, then annoyed etc I did not get it. No thanks!!!!
Re the flipper not a great lover of them or the concept but I can understand it and do not actually have a massive issue with it. Eg If someone wants to buy at that price etc that's their business.
However those that are flipping and pretend their not really get on my fukin nerves. If I don't flip it someone else will etc etc. Or those trying to justify it. Always first in the line for a freebie and first to screw another member on a bit of luck they had getting something they did not want.
they say it never happens etc but great member diff continent we have never met who won a raffle for a NWalker Hong Kong piece now I like NW and having lived in HK it was a nice piece for me. He just passed it along no extras etc...now there's morals for you
it it is not forgotten. So does and should happen more on here
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'Gateway' art and the relative morality of flipping, by strongsauzej on Aug 1, 2014 11:49:34 GMT 1, Must say I have and never will buy a flipped print. Have bought them where the seller/collector makes a profit likewise a gallery
isn't this the whole concept of flipping? to make a profit? Like everyone else has mentioned, it is part of the game. It is in every genre of collecting. It fuels collections. Here's a scenario.
Say an artist released a print with a limited edition of X. You tried for it and did not score. For some reason, you REALLY REALLY wanted the print. In a world without flippers, how would you be able to obtain it? If all collectors managed to snag said print, it probably wouldn't leave their collection for a bit. And if said collector were to sell the print due to some reason, I would imagine the price be way more than buying from a flipper. Just sayin'...everything is the way it is for a reason.
Must say I have and never will buy a flipped print. Have bought them where the seller/collector makes a profit likewise a gallery isn't this the whole concept of flipping? to make a profit? Like everyone else has mentioned, it is part of the game. It is in every genre of collecting. It fuels collections. Here's a scenario. Say an artist released a print with a limited edition of X. You tried for it and did not score. For some reason, you REALLY REALLY wanted the print. In a world without flippers, how would you be able to obtain it? If all collectors managed to snag said print, it probably wouldn't leave their collection for a bit. And if said collector were to sell the print due to some reason, I would imagine the price be way more than buying from a flipper. Just sayin'...everything is the way it is for a reason. |
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'Gateway' art and the relative morality of flipping, by Someones Brain on Aug 1, 2014 12:42:05 GMT 1, Sorry strongsauzej, but the argument that flippers are doing a good thing to the collectors and the market of certain collected/collectable goods because they enhance the availability of these goods on the aftermarket is as old as stupid.
Edit: Just to clarify, there are a lot of macro- and microeconomic explanations as to why there are flippers, but these are no justifications for such market behaviour or substantiations re: the necessity of it. In particular, taking into account the means of our modern society you do not need flippers to promote or achieve the best allocation of collected/collectable goods.
Sorry strongsauzej, but the argument that flippers are doing a good thing to the collectors and the market of certain collected/collectable goods because they enhance the availability of these goods on the aftermarket is as old as stupid.
Edit: Just to clarify, there are a lot of macro- and microeconomic explanations as to why there are flippers, but these are no justifications for such market behaviour or substantiations re: the necessity of it. In particular, taking into account the means of our modern society you do not need flippers to promote or achieve the best allocation of collected/collectable goods.
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johnnyh
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 4,492
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March 2011
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'Gateway' art and the relative morality of flipping, by johnnyh on Aug 1, 2014 13:03:52 GMT 1, Must say I have and never will buy a flipped print. Have bought them where the seller/collector makes a profit likewise a gallery isn't this the whole concept of flipping? to make a profit? Like everyone else has mentioned, it is part of the game. It is in every genre of collecting. It fuels collections. Here's a scenario. Say an artist released a print with a limited edition of X. You tried for it and did not score. For some reason, you REALLY REALLY wanted the print. In a world without flippers, how would you be able to obtain it? If all collectors managed to snag said print, it probably wouldn't leave their collection for a bit. And if said collector were to sell the print due to some reason, I would imagine the price be way more than buying from a flipper. Just sayin'...everything is the way it is for a reason.
Don't deny all that fella and fully understand profit etc easy to say profit is profit and ok but that covers all business and industries so their is another element so easily forgotten as mention in mine and the original and that's morals and ethics. But I have not criticised the flipper ust those that flip and deny it which is quite sad
my point in my post is my opinion and I don't buy em...may be I am right may be wrong but it's what I do. If people want to buy em it's their money they can. But I think there is an element of hype and furor with certain things so I just don't bother. Not that desperate for an instant hit. Yep I do miss out on some things I would like but not that often as flips are usually massively overpriced when you can get something better for less.
as say just my opinion and what I do.
Must say I have and never will buy a flipped print. Have bought them where the seller/collector makes a profit likewise a gallery isn't this the whole concept of flipping? to make a profit? Like everyone else has mentioned, it is part of the game. It is in every genre of collecting. It fuels collections. Here's a scenario. Say an artist released a print with a limited edition of X. You tried for it and did not score. For some reason, you REALLY REALLY wanted the print. In a world without flippers, how would you be able to obtain it? If all collectors managed to snag said print, it probably wouldn't leave their collection for a bit. And if said collector were to sell the print due to some reason, I would imagine the price be way more than buying from a flipper. Just sayin'...everything is the way it is for a reason. Don't deny all that fella and fully understand profit etc easy to say profit is profit and ok but that covers all business and industries so their is another element so easily forgotten as mention in mine and the original and that's morals and ethics. But I have not criticised the flipper ust those that flip and deny it which is quite sad my point in my post is my opinion and I don't buy em...may be I am right may be wrong but it's what I do. If people want to buy em it's their money they can. But I think there is an element of hype and furor with certain things so I just don't bother. Not that desperate for an instant hit. Yep I do miss out on some things I would like but not that often as flips are usually massively overpriced when you can get something better for less. as say just my opinion and what I do. |
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Deleted
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January 1970
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'Gateway' art and the relative morality of flipping, by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 13:37:38 GMT 1, the problem is the flippers are VERY good at being able to get prints. who knows - might even be their full time job. if they weren't buying up every print drop, the people who actually want them would have a much better chance of getting one at original cost
the problem is the flippers are VERY good at being able to get prints. who knows - might even be their full time job. if they weren't buying up every print drop, the people who actually want them would have a much better chance of getting one at original cost
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johnnyh
Junior Member
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March 2011
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'Gateway' art and the relative morality of flipping, by johnnyh on Aug 1, 2014 14:05:33 GMT 1, That Federation is very very true. Which supports Someonesbrains point in that not exactly doing the collector a favour.
I often wonder with galleries and people promoting artists if they sometimes encourage and support it to help in hyping the artist.....note that's not based on anything factual that I know.
That Federation is very very true. Which supports Someonesbrains point in that not exactly doing the collector a favour.
I often wonder with galleries and people promoting artists if they sometimes encourage and support it to help in hyping the artist.....note that's not based on anything factual that I know.
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