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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by darjeeling on Dec 22, 2007 18:17:47 GMT 1, I'm surprised by how many pieces from 2007 are being auctioned-off. I'm not surprised. Folsk cashing in on the hype and greed for sure. Not surprising at all.
That monkey wall is rather nice and a few nice B originals but also a lot of banksy, murakami etc. prints that you can pick up on ebay or a number of galleries any day of the week. And what's with Murakami being "urban" art? I don't see it?
I'm surprised by how many pieces from 2007 are being auctioned-off. I'm not surprised. Folsk cashing in on the hype and greed for sure. Not surprising at all. That monkey wall is rather nice and a few nice B originals but also a lot of banksy, murakami etc. prints that you can pick up on ebay or a number of galleries any day of the week. And what's with Murakami being "urban" art? I don't see it?
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EHC
New Member
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October 2006
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by EHC on Dec 22, 2007 23:27:04 GMT 1, The Neate "Apprentice" is the pick of the Lot imo. Some nice pieces but overall not really impressed with the rest of the catalogue though.
The Neate "Apprentice" is the pick of the Lot imo. Some nice pieces but overall not really impressed with the rest of the catalogue though.
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BK83
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October 2006
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by BK83 on Dec 22, 2007 23:44:13 GMT 1, Agree. Neate's Apprentice is best. Then the Laugh now triptych board - The rest are all a bit average aren't they?! just prints and what not... who cares.
Agree. Neate's Apprentice is best. Then the Laugh now triptych board - The rest are all a bit average aren't they?! just prints and what not... who cares.
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guest2
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,471
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December 2006
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by guest2 on Dec 22, 2007 23:47:28 GMT 1, Agree. Neate's Apprentice is best. Then the Laugh now triptych board - The rest are all a bit average aren't they?! just prints and what not... who cares.
I'm a neate fan but thats not my favourite. I expect it'll do well though but be surprised if it goes as high as the last one at Sotherbys. I say 38k on the hammer. Place your bets.
Agree. Neate's Apprentice is best. Then the Laugh now triptych board - The rest are all a bit average aren't they?! just prints and what not... who cares. I'm a neate fan but thats not my favourite. I expect it'll do well though but be surprised if it goes as high as the last one at Sotherbys. I say 38k on the hammer. Place your bets.
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by howlinhooker on Dec 23, 2007 0:04:43 GMT 1, SOME GREAT ITEMS WISH I COULD AFFORD SOME OF THEM "BANKSY"
SOME GREAT ITEMS WISH I COULD AFFORD SOME OF THEM "BANKSY"
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Montubu7
Junior Member
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November 2006
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Montubu7 on Dec 23, 2007 0:25:26 GMT 1, Agree. Neate's Apprentice is best. Then the Laugh now triptych board - The rest are all a bit average aren't they?! just prints and what not... who cares. I'm a neate fan but thats not my favourite. I expect it'll do well though but be surprised if it goes as high as the last one at Sotherbys. I say 38k on the hammer. Place your bets.
ยฃ55k
Agree. Neate's Apprentice is best. Then the Laugh now triptych board - The rest are all a bit average aren't they?! just prints and what not... who cares. I'm a neate fan but thats not my favourite. I expect it'll do well though but be surprised if it goes as high as the last one at Sotherbys. I say 38k on the hammer. Place your bets. ยฃ55k
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frank11
Junior Member
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by frank11 on Dec 23, 2007 2:32:45 GMT 1, Sweet Jesus..... see some of those pieces I've got a plan......... YOUNG, HEALTHY, NON-SMOKING MALE... KIDNEY FOR SALE!!!
MUST BE BEFORE 5th FEB.............
CASH, BANK TRANSFER, PAYPAL etc etc ACCEPTED FOR PAYMENT.Alternatively YOUNG BUCK, ON THE LOOK OUT FOR LOVE "MATURE" WIDOW TYPE NEED ONLY APPLY.PLEASE CONTACT BEFORE 5th FEB
I thought i would bump this for you it seemed like a good cause ;D
Sweet Jesus..... see some of those pieces I've got a plan......... YOUNG, HEALTHY, NON-SMOKING MALE... KIDNEY FOR SALE!!!
MUST BE BEFORE 5th FEB.............
CASH, BANK TRANSFER, PAYPAL etc etc ACCEPTED FOR PAYMENT.Alternatively YOUNG BUCK, ON THE LOOK OUT FOR LOVE "MATURE" WIDOW TYPE NEED ONLY APPLY.PLEASE CONTACT BEFORE 5th FEB I thought i would bump this for you it seemed like a good cause ;D
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jamesreeve5
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by jamesreeve5 on Dec 23, 2007 5:26:10 GMT 1, Yes it is Mike. Not impressed with the list I have to say.
I have to agree... if this bombs I think there could be a bit of a lull in the market over the next months... knock on wood
Yes it is Mike. Not impressed with the list I have to say. I have to agree... if this bombs I think there could be a bit of a lull in the market over the next months... knock on wood
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ABC
Artist
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by ABC on Dec 23, 2007 6:13:36 GMT 1, I very nearly bought lot 28 a few years back, and nowhere near that estimate.
To be honest It looks like I've just searched for Banksy stuff on ebay, thats the normal list sort of listings I get (apart from the originals of course) Interested to see the Micallef prints there considering they are going for peanuts on the bay at the moment. I havn't seen a signed Turf war for a while, and lot 19 is a litle different.
I very nearly bought lot 28 a few years back, and nowhere near that estimate.
To be honest It looks like I've just searched for Banksy stuff on ebay, thats the normal list sort of listings I get (apart from the originals of course) Interested to see the Micallef prints there considering they are going for peanuts on the bay at the moment. I havn't seen a signed Turf war for a while, and lot 19 is a litle different.
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RBK
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by RBK on Dec 23, 2007 19:20:10 GMT 1, That Neate can't hold a candle to the Sotheby's Suicide Bomber piece. It made the rounds for private sale and obviously no one bit. I will guess 43K.
That Neate can't hold a candle to the Sotheby's Suicide Bomber piece. It made the rounds for private sale and obviously no one bit. I will guess 43K.
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by psycholinguistix on Dec 23, 2007 19:28:29 GMT 1, It didn't make any rounds for private sale, it was sold in the afternoon before the opening. Its a nice piece but is actually quite harsh when you see it up close. That said, its the pick of the Neate's at the sale, I guess minimum 55K.
It didn't make any rounds for private sale, it was sold in the afternoon before the opening. Its a nice piece but is actually quite harsh when you see it up close. That said, its the pick of the Neate's at the sale, I guess minimum 55K.
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dotdot
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by dotdot on Dec 23, 2007 19:50:42 GMT 1, interesting auction.
Bonhams do need to get a few facts about what they're auctioning correct though.
We could start with when did the say AN was born - 1988 - think not. Prov for street pieces ? interesting subject in itself.
As for the AN piece - I'm a fan - this is not imho a fine piece. I get the message - too many people do not however like it. If they don't like it not - myself included - well they'll never like it - regardless of story etc .. blah blah.
The guy's got huge talent - this image however is not up there - its down there.
Otherwise given how folks are worrying about the economy - well this auction could prove everyone wrong / right - either way it'll be interesting.
..
interesting auction.
Bonhams do need to get a few facts about what they're auctioning correct though.
We could start with when did the say AN was born - 1988 - think not. Prov for street pieces ? interesting subject in itself.
As for the AN piece - I'm a fan - this is not imho a fine piece. I get the message - too many people do not however like it. If they don't like it not - myself included - well they'll never like it - regardless of story etc .. blah blah.
The guy's got huge talent - this image however is not up there - its down there.
Otherwise given how folks are worrying about the economy - well this auction could prove everyone wrong / right - either way it'll be interesting.
..
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by darjeeling on Dec 23, 2007 20:10:48 GMT 1, Yes it is Mike. Not impressed with the list I have to say. I have to agree... if this bombs I think there could be a bit of a lull in the market over the next months... knock on wood Yeah, I mean it looks like a very poorly curated show in a sense. A total mishmash of anything they could get their hands on that looks a bit weird all mixed together. With only a few rare Banksys mixed in. And Cyclops? No offense to the guy but isn't it a bit early to get this guy up to auction? And those Laz prints are quite a bit premature to be going up for auction in my opinion. Dface, Neate etc. don't have that much auction experience and if this auction doesn't go well it will reflect poorly on them. Which is ashame because it might not be them as much as the economy and a poor collection of work.
Personally I don't like this one bit. Instead of trying to get these artists integrated into the world of fine art I feel like they're being marginalized by showing and auctioning them seperately. And also used for a quick buck until perhaps the fad passes. They should be getting this stuff in front of contemporary collectors instead of marketing it to street collectors. Like preaching to the choir I think.
This is the same thing the Beautiful Losers faced couple years ago. They had and still do have a hard time breaking into the contemporary gallery/museum scene and being shown side by side with the more traditional contemporary artists. Too often they get labeled as outsider or folk art.
Yes it is Mike. Not impressed with the list I have to say. I have to agree... if this bombs I think there could be a bit of a lull in the market over the next months... knock on wood Yeah, I mean it looks like a very poorly curated show in a sense. A total mishmash of anything they could get their hands on that looks a bit weird all mixed together. With only a few rare Banksys mixed in. And Cyclops? No offense to the guy but isn't it a bit early to get this guy up to auction? And those Laz prints are quite a bit premature to be going up for auction in my opinion. Dface, Neate etc. don't have that much auction experience and if this auction doesn't go well it will reflect poorly on them. Which is ashame because it might not be them as much as the economy and a poor collection of work. Personally I don't like this one bit. Instead of trying to get these artists integrated into the world of fine art I feel like they're being marginalized by showing and auctioning them seperately. And also used for a quick buck until perhaps the fad passes. They should be getting this stuff in front of contemporary collectors instead of marketing it to street collectors. Like preaching to the choir I think. This is the same thing the Beautiful Losers faced couple years ago. They had and still do have a hard time breaking into the contemporary gallery/museum scene and being shown side by side with the more traditional contemporary artists. Too often they get labeled as outsider or folk art.
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RBK
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by RBK on Dec 23, 2007 23:30:59 GMT 1, It didn't make any rounds for private sale, it was sold in the afternoon before the opening. Its a nice piece but is actually quite harsh when you see it up close. That said, its the pick of the Neate's at the sale, I guess minimum 55K.
I was offered it through a 3rd party so I can't say I agree.
psycholinguistix - is it yours? If so - good luck.
It didn't make any rounds for private sale, it was sold in the afternoon before the opening. Its a nice piece but is actually quite harsh when you see it up close. That said, its the pick of the Neate's at the sale, I guess minimum 55K. I was offered it through a 3rd party so I can't say I agree. psycholinguistix - is it yours? If so - good luck.
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RBK
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by RBK on Dec 23, 2007 23:41:07 GMT 1, No offense to Cyclops either - but I agree with you darjeeling.
No offense to Cyclops either - but I agree with you darjeeling.
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jamesreeve5
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September 2012
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by jamesreeve5 on Dec 24, 2007 1:40:07 GMT 1, Personally I don't like this one bit. Instead of trying to get these artists integrated into the world of fine art I feel like they're being marginalized by showing and auctioning them seperately. And also used for a quick buck until perhaps the fad passes. They should be getting this stuff in front of contemporary collectors instead of marketing it to street collectors. Like preaching to the choir I think. This is the same thing the Beautiful Losers faced couple years ago. They had and still do have a hard time breaking into the contemporary gallery/museum scene and being shown side by side with the more traditional contemporary artists. Too often they get labeled as outsider or folk art.
Good points made about this but it should be noted that Beautiful Losers was a not-for-profit museum show while this is a money making auction. The more this auction is discussed, the more pessimistic about the outcome.
And I do agree with the others who have mentioned Cyclops definitely not being ready for auction. I have a feeling that if it wasn't him that put the work in himself then he cannot be too happy about being part of this...
Personally I don't like this one bit. Instead of trying to get these artists integrated into the world of fine art I feel like they're being marginalized by showing and auctioning them seperately. And also used for a quick buck until perhaps the fad passes. They should be getting this stuff in front of contemporary collectors instead of marketing it to street collectors. Like preaching to the choir I think. This is the same thing the Beautiful Losers faced couple years ago. They had and still do have a hard time breaking into the contemporary gallery/museum scene and being shown side by side with the more traditional contemporary artists. Too often they get labeled as outsider or folk art. Good points made about this but it should be noted that Beautiful Losers was a not-for-profit museum show while this is a money making auction. The more this auction is discussed, the more pessimistic about the outcome. And I do agree with the others who have mentioned Cyclops definitely not being ready for auction. I have a feeling that if it wasn't him that put the work in himself then he cannot be too happy about being part of this...
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neutral
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by neutral on Dec 24, 2007 11:54:43 GMT 1, A bit of a joke this is. Not even a Basquiat in the auction. When it comes to Cyclops it is an interesting one. Not really belonging there me say. Then again it might well sell of 2/3k !!! Who knows... Anyway looking forward to this big Theatrical Street Art Auction results !
A bit of a joke this is. Not even a Basquiat in the auction. When it comes to Cyclops it is an interesting one. Not really belonging there me say. Then again it might well sell of 2/3k !!! Who knows... Anyway looking forward to this big Theatrical Street Art Auction results !
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guest2
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December 2006
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by guest2 on Dec 24, 2007 12:32:48 GMT 1, Ist time I've seen those images of Lucs work was on line with the rest of us.
But in his defence, it's an Urban Art Sale and he def is a street artist and gets more paint on walls than most of them, alot more than Murakami : )
But on a sader note, Luc recently had a tragedy in the family, Luc - if you read this, my thoughts are with you brother. Be strong, you're a good man.
Off for an xmas drink, have a great xmas eve everyone and be safe.
Ist time I've seen those images of Lucs work was on line with the rest of us.
But in his defence, it's an Urban Art Sale and he def is a street artist and gets more paint on walls than most of them, alot more than Murakami : )
But on a sader note, Luc recently had a tragedy in the family, Luc - if you read this, my thoughts are with you brother. Be strong, you're a good man.
Off for an xmas drink, have a great xmas eve everyone and be safe.
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hlarmy
Junior Member
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by hlarmy on Dec 24, 2007 12:34:49 GMT 1, Very basic question but what does it mean by artist's proof? Is this the original or print?
Thanks
Very basic question but what does it mean by artist's proof? Is this the original or print? Thanks
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neutral
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February 2007
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by neutral on Dec 24, 2007 12:45:25 GMT 1, Not having a go at Luc Frankie and I know he is painting on walls. Yet Swoon too and she is not represented there, so did Basquiat... My point was that he is young and him appearing in auction at that stage is somehow fairly unusual and could potentially be damaging for its carrier. Invader was another example along the same line, yet his work failed to sell at the past Sothebys.
Happy Xmas to you all...
Ist time I've seen those images of Lucs work was on line with the rest of us. But in his defence, it's an Urban Art Sale and he def is a street artist and gets more paint on walls than most of them, alot more than Murakami : ) But on a sader note, Luc recently had a tragedy in the family, Luc - if you read this, my thoughts are with you brother. Be strong, you're a good man. Off for an xmas drink, have a great xmas eve everyone and be safe.
Not having a go at Luc Frankie and I know he is painting on walls. Yet Swoon too and she is not represented there, so did Basquiat... My point was that he is young and him appearing in auction at that stage is somehow fairly unusual and could potentially be damaging for its carrier. Invader was another example along the same line, yet his work failed to sell at the past Sothebys. Happy Xmas to you all... Ist time I've seen those images of Lucs work was on line with the rest of us. But in his defence, it's an Urban Art Sale and he def is a street artist and gets more paint on walls than most of them, alot more than Murakami : ) But on a sader note, Luc recently had a tragedy in the family, Luc - if you read this, my thoughts are with you brother. Be strong, you're a good man. Off for an xmas drink, have a great xmas eve everyone and be safe.
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by darjeeling on Dec 24, 2007 16:12:35 GMT 1, Personally I don't like this one bit. Instead of trying to get these artists integrated into the world of fine art I feel like they're being marginalized by showing and auctioning them seperately. And also used for a quick buck until perhaps the fad passes. They should be getting this stuff in front of contemporary collectors instead of marketing it to street collectors. Like preaching to the choir I think. This is the same thing the Beautiful Losers faced couple years ago. They had and still do have a hard time breaking into the contemporary gallery/museum scene and being shown side by side with the more traditional contemporary artists. Too often they get labeled as outsider or folk art. Good points made about this but it should be noted that Beautiful Losers was a not-for-profit museum show while this is a money making auction. Right, I was referring more to the artists who part of that group show and in general they have a hard time being associated with anything but that group show and the label of being outsider art and shown anywhere but places associated with that kind of thing.
If this auction goes well for everything then great โ but it has potential not too. And somewhere on the Bonhams sight (which I can't find right now) it said they were looking for works to sell by this artist and that artist etc. for future street art auctions. And almost all of the artists listed were part of the small UK mainly stencil/political kind of thing. But where's Barry Mcgee, Phil Frost, Swoon, Kehinde Wiley, Andrew Schoulz, Parla, Mcginley, Supine, Neckface, Leines, Shepard Fairey, Chris Johanson etc. and all the Deitch artists and on and on.? I think they'd easily fit into "urban art." This is all a little too incestuous and closed up imo.
Personally I don't like this one bit. Instead of trying to get these artists integrated into the world of fine art I feel like they're being marginalized by showing and auctioning them seperately. And also used for a quick buck until perhaps the fad passes. They should be getting this stuff in front of contemporary collectors instead of marketing it to street collectors. Like preaching to the choir I think. This is the same thing the Beautiful Losers faced couple years ago. They had and still do have a hard time breaking into the contemporary gallery/museum scene and being shown side by side with the more traditional contemporary artists. Too often they get labeled as outsider or folk art. Good points made about this but it should be noted that Beautiful Losers was a not-for-profit museum show while this is a money making auction. Right, I was referring more to the artists who part of that group show and in general they have a hard time being associated with anything but that group show and the label of being outsider art and shown anywhere but places associated with that kind of thing. If this auction goes well for everything then great โ but it has potential not too. And somewhere on the Bonhams sight (which I can't find right now) it said they were looking for works to sell by this artist and that artist etc. for future street art auctions. And almost all of the artists listed were part of the small UK mainly stencil/political kind of thing. But where's Barry Mcgee, Phil Frost, Swoon, Kehinde Wiley, Andrew Schoulz, Parla, Mcginley, Supine, Neckface, Leines, Shepard Fairey, Chris Johanson etc. and all the Deitch artists and on and on.? I think they'd easily fit into "urban art." This is all a little too incestuous and closed up imo.
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jamesreeve5
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by jamesreeve5 on Dec 24, 2007 20:26:09 GMT 1, Good points made about this but it should be noted that Beautiful Losers was a not-for-profit museum show while this is a money making auction. Right, I was referring more to the artists who part of that group show and in general they have a hard time being associated with anything but that group show and the label of being outsider art and shown anywhere but places associated with that kind of thing. If this auction goes well for everything then great โ but it has potential not too. And somewhere on the Bonhams sight (which I can't find right now) it said they were looking for works to sell by this artist and that artist etc. for future street art auctions. And almost all of the artists listed were part of the small UK mainly stencil/political kind of thing. But where's Barry Mcgee, Phil Frost, Swoon, Kehinde Wiley, Andrew Schoulz, Parla, Mcginley, Supine, Neckface, Leines, Shepard Fairey, Chris Johanson etc. and all the Deitch artists and on and on.? I think they'd easily fit into "urban art." This is all a little too incestuous and closed up imo.
+1 for a good point being made... even a better question though Darjeeling... where are they on this forum?
I am going to apologize at this point because I feel like I am all the time... Sorry everyone...
Good points made about this but it should be noted that Beautiful Losers was a not-for-profit museum show while this is a money making auction. Right, I was referring more to the artists who part of that group show and in general they have a hard time being associated with anything but that group show and the label of being outsider art and shown anywhere but places associated with that kind of thing. If this auction goes well for everything then great โ but it has potential not too. And somewhere on the Bonhams sight (which I can't find right now) it said they were looking for works to sell by this artist and that artist etc. for future street art auctions. And almost all of the artists listed were part of the small UK mainly stencil/political kind of thing. But where's Barry Mcgee, Phil Frost, Swoon, Kehinde Wiley, Andrew Schoulz, Parla, Mcginley, Supine, Neckface, Leines, Shepard Fairey, Chris Johanson etc. and all the Deitch artists and on and on.? I think they'd easily fit into "urban art." This is all a little too incestuous and closed up imo. +1 for a good point being made... even a better question though Darjeeling... where are they on this forum? I am going to apologize at this point because I feel like I am all the time... Sorry everyone...
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loucastel
Junior Member
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by loucastel on Jan 14, 2008 15:34:09 GMT 1, Anybody got a couple of hundred K they can lend me, I will pay it back honestly!!
Anybody got a couple of hundred K they can lend me, I will pay it back honestly!!
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Grafter
Artist
New Member
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February 2007
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by Grafter on Jan 24, 2008 21:32:00 GMT 1, On the Sky website there is a piece about a Urban Art auction at Bonhams and one of the pieces is this 'Untitled' piece by Banksy. It's a new one on me....anyone else..? It don't look like his style either.
On the Sky website there is a piece about a Urban Art auction at Bonhams and one of the pieces is this 'Untitled' piece by Banksy. It's a new one on me....anyone else..? It don't look like his style either.
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by stillborncrisps on Jan 24, 2008 22:13:48 GMT 1, It's got his tag in the bottom right if you look on the Bonhams site.
I have to say I think it's the worst thing he's ever done. It seems to have no meaning, no humour and looks really cheap. Maybe it was just a present he knocked up for someone?
It's got his tag in the bottom right if you look on the Bonhams site.
I have to say I think it's the worst thing he's ever done. It seems to have no meaning, no humour and looks really cheap. Maybe it was just a present he knocked up for someone?
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bullet
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by bullet on Jan 25, 2008 10:52:24 GMT 1, I don't get it sometimes, some might say this is because i am 5 years old, some might say its because i wear tights. Either way, how does Bonhams get away with auctioning off prints bought only a few months ago (D*FACE/Walker) I can understand a few banksy originals, but surely selling stuff this soon constitutes flipping. Then people get excited about it. I wish people would get that excited when someone puts a pop-tart on ebay for ยฃ1,500...
such is the world
J
I don't get it sometimes, some might say this is because i am 5 years old, some might say its because i wear tights. Either way, how does Bonhams get away with auctioning off prints bought only a few months ago (D*FACE/Walker) I can understand a few banksy originals, but surely selling stuff this soon constitutes flipping. Then people get excited about it. I wish people would get that excited when someone puts a pop-tart on ebay for ยฃ1,500...
such is the world
J
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pezlow
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January 2007
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by pezlow on Jan 25, 2008 11:06:07 GMT 1, It's Bonhams clients not Bonhams who are doing the flipping.
It's Bonhams clients not Bonhams who are doing the flipping.
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bullet
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January 2013
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Bonhams โข Art Auctions โข London ๐ฌ๐ง, by bullet on Jan 25, 2008 11:09:13 GMT 1, I understand that pez, but don't understand why its not frowned upon as well like people frown upon flippers...
I understand that pez, but don't understand why its not frowned upon as well like people frown upon flippers...
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