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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by mose on Feb 6, 2008 22:14:19 GMT 1, type, perhaps if you intelligently critiqued Twombly's work your opinion would actually provoke thought and be worth something to others. Merely dismissing something as a 'piece of s**t' is just the same narrow-minded, wasteful attitude that many display when dismissing our 'scene'.
Twombly is a great comparison to Banksy in some ways. Both are legends and are revered in certain quarters, both have been criticized for being 'un-artistic', simplistic, and childish, and, for many, both suffer when their pieces are viewed in isolation and apart from the impact their careers had on the art world.
type, perhaps if you intelligently critiqued Twombly's work your opinion would actually provoke thought and be worth something to others. Merely dismissing something as a 'piece of s**t' is just the same narrow-minded, wasteful attitude that many display when dismissing our 'scene'.
Twombly is a great comparison to Banksy in some ways. Both are legends and are revered in certain quarters, both have been criticized for being 'un-artistic', simplistic, and childish, and, for many, both suffer when their pieces are viewed in isolation and apart from the impact their careers had on the art world.
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seidbereit
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by seidbereit on Feb 6, 2008 22:25:51 GMT 1, I've previously never heard of Cy Twombly but I really like that piece. I could easily spend a few hours looking at it.
How big is the piece itself?
I've previously never heard of Cy Twombly but I really like that piece. I could easily spend a few hours looking at it.
How big is the piece itself?
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headzup
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by headzup on Feb 6, 2008 22:30:40 GMT 1, a small stamp
a small stamp
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by hollywouldifhecoul on Feb 6, 2008 22:40:53 GMT 1, A Parla, huh?? Nice setup you've got going on. I do feel his work leans more towards the graffiti side, which is favored IMO. He's got some hot pieces.
But I do agree with your gripe concerning the majority of the forum members' taste in art. Not many branch out into other art avenues. But I guess we should take into consideration the forum we are on. This is a Banksy forum! I don't expect to discuss the ventures of Spanish Renaissance artists on this forum. And thus approach the taste of others accordingly.
A Parla, huh?? Nice setup you've got going on. I do feel his work leans more towards the graffiti side, which is favored IMO. He's got some hot pieces.
But I do agree with your gripe concerning the majority of the forum members' taste in art. Not many branch out into other art avenues. But I guess we should take into consideration the forum we are on. This is a Banksy forum! I don't expect to discuss the ventures of Spanish Renaissance artists on this forum. And thus approach the taste of others accordingly.
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jamesreeve5
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by jamesreeve5 on Feb 6, 2008 22:59:08 GMT 1, I'd say a fairer musical comparison would be Cy Twombly to Albert Ayler. But not many people know who that is (but up until the start of this thread it looked like not many forum members knew who Cy Twombly was either)...
I have to stand behind ricosg11 on this. It's really foolish to condemn something that's not figurative and made with spraypaint, and I think the reactions on this board are a good barometer of the forum's ignorance about art as a whole.
I have been lucky enough to see Twombly's illustrations of the Iliad in the Philadelphia museum of art and they are amazing, as are his Four Seasons in the Tate Modern. Unfortunately you can't buy these pieces so someone ended up buying this smaller piece (which is still beautiful in its own right) instead. Sort of like all of you guys who can't afford a Banksy canvas so you go buy a print instead.
Type, there is nothing wrong with liking an artist because they are influential. It just means that you understand more than what is immediately there. You can like something because of the amazing story behind it and the way it fits into history, not just because of the way the paint is arranged on the canvas
It just looks completely ignorant to sit here and have forum members group bash an established artist like Cy Twombly, lets all save that for the Thomas Kinkade forum to do alright?
I'd say a fairer musical comparison would be Cy Twombly to Albert Ayler. But not many people know who that is (but up until the start of this thread it looked like not many forum members knew who Cy Twombly was either)...
I have to stand behind ricosg11 on this. It's really foolish to condemn something that's not figurative and made with spraypaint, and I think the reactions on this board are a good barometer of the forum's ignorance about art as a whole.
I have been lucky enough to see Twombly's illustrations of the Iliad in the Philadelphia museum of art and they are amazing, as are his Four Seasons in the Tate Modern. Unfortunately you can't buy these pieces so someone ended up buying this smaller piece (which is still beautiful in its own right) instead. Sort of like all of you guys who can't afford a Banksy canvas so you go buy a print instead.
Type, there is nothing wrong with liking an artist because they are influential. It just means that you understand more than what is immediately there. You can like something because of the amazing story behind it and the way it fits into history, not just because of the way the paint is arranged on the canvas
It just looks completely ignorant to sit here and have forum members group bash an established artist like Cy Twombly, lets all save that for the Thomas Kinkade forum to do alright?
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f5ers
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by f5ers on Feb 6, 2008 23:14:57 GMT 1, James.. this is fucken crap. Please explain why this piece is a good piece?? Its in no way pleasing to the eye, witty, attractive, sexy, conceptual, creative etc etc. It only falls into the crap bracket.... Explain what its about. Explain why its worth 2 Mill. Its for people who have more money than sense..
James.. this is fucken crap. Please explain why this piece is a good piece?? Its in no way pleasing to the eye, witty, attractive, sexy, conceptual, creative etc etc. It only falls into the crap bracket.... Explain what its about. Explain why its worth 2 Mill. Its for people who have more money than sense..
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gozgoz
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by gozgoz on Feb 6, 2008 23:21:58 GMT 1, i honestly think its not fair for people to start saying others are ignorant etc etc. its just taste in art. its got nothing to do with which type of art u like makes u a better person/more mature/more articulate person...
u two sound like u stumbled upon a METALLICA forum and am trying to say their music sucks compared to your MICHAEL BOLTON.
ITS A DIFFERENCE IN OPINION.
CHILL OUT EVERYONE!
i honestly think its not fair for people to start saying others are ignorant etc etc. its just taste in art. its got nothing to do with which type of art u like makes u a better person/more mature/more articulate person...
u two sound like u stumbled upon a METALLICA forum and am trying to say their music sucks compared to your MICHAEL BOLTON.
ITS A DIFFERENCE IN OPINION.
CHILL OUT EVERYONE!
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jamesreeve5
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f5ers
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by f5ers on Feb 6, 2008 23:25:05 GMT 1, I didn't say your taste sucks.. i just said what is good about it and what is it about??
I didn't say your taste sucks.. i just said what is good about it and what is it about??
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jamesreeve5
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by jamesreeve5 on Feb 6, 2008 23:26:56 GMT 1, i know you didn't f5er's, and I am not being smug in my response on the reading, but the key to understanding all abstract expressionist painting lies in reading Clement Greenberg
i know you didn't f5er's, and I am not being smug in my response on the reading, but the key to understanding all abstract expressionist painting lies in reading Clement Greenberg
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jamesreeve5
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by jamesreeve5 on Feb 6, 2008 23:27:37 GMT 1, what is wrong with the debate here gozgoz?
what is wrong with the debate here gozgoz?
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by dave313perry on Feb 6, 2008 23:29:53 GMT 1, A world apart from us lot on here,
im happy with my cheapo originals, and if they ever do become worth 2million i will happily sell to a stuck up arsehole, travel the world and give f**k loads to charity.
all this talk of 50k + bollox is not why im here - feel free to keep this thread going but im lost
anyone got a nice olive Shat-at for sale???
A world apart from us lot on here,
im happy with my cheapo originals, and if they ever do become worth 2million i will happily sell to a stuck up arsehole, travel the world and give f**k loads to charity.
all this talk of 50k + bollox is not why im here - feel free to keep this thread going but im lost
anyone got a nice olive Shat-at for sale???
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by ricosg11 on Feb 6, 2008 23:33:03 GMT 1, I think mr Banksy said it perfectly. "the joy of not being sold anything." I would use this statement to explain Twombly's art. Im sure there is some meaning or feeling Mr Twombly was thinking while making this piece, but to me, the beauty in it is that there is no direct meaning or clear message instantly to the viewer. You can use your own thoughts and experiences to interpret it. Sometimes, work that is so immediate and for lack of a better phrase "spoon fed" to the audience can get quite boring after a while. Where as something like this can be reinterpreted every single day.
I think mr Banksy said it perfectly. "the joy of not being sold anything." I would use this statement to explain Twombly's art. Im sure there is some meaning or feeling Mr Twombly was thinking while making this piece, but to me, the beauty in it is that there is no direct meaning or clear message instantly to the viewer. You can use your own thoughts and experiences to interpret it. Sometimes, work that is so immediate and for lack of a better phrase "spoon fed" to the audience can get quite boring after a while. Where as something like this can be reinterpreted every single day.
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f5ers
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by f5ers on Feb 6, 2008 23:34:11 GMT 1, I don't need to read someone's elses opinion about conceptual or modern art to realise this is pretty much a quick scribble. I think theres some scribbled writing in there that could read i'm lauughing my fat rich ass off.. you gotta screw your eyes up but its definately there
I don't need to read someone's elses opinion about conceptual or modern art to realise this is pretty much a quick scribble. I think theres some scribbled writing in there that could read i'm lauughing my fat rich ass off.. you gotta screw your eyes up but its definately there
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by alsbabar on Feb 6, 2008 23:38:20 GMT 1, Cy Twombly works are legendary, i love his stuff, always have.
Cy Twombly works are legendary, i love his stuff, always have.
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by mose on Feb 6, 2008 23:43:03 GMT 1, James.. this is f**ken crap. Please explain why this piece is a good piece?? Its in no way pleasing to the eye, witty, attractive, sexy, conceptual, creative etc etc. It only falls into the crap bracket.... Explain what its about. Explain why its worth 2 Mill. Its for people who have more money than sense..
It's worth 2 million because someone will pay that for it. Valuation does not equal, or even usually reflect, merit.
Of all the adjectives you used, I strongly disagree with stating that it is not witty, conceptual, and creative. You have to understand the time frame this piece was done in. It is from 1958, when abstract art was far rarer and representational/figurative still was the dominant, accepted form. While it may not appear groundbreaking now, this was raw, cerebral, revolutionary work at the time. Pollock, and Twombly, changed the game forever with their 1950's work.
This particular piece, like much of Twombly's catalogue, celebrates the power of the line and mark-making, elevating it to become the primary focus. In this work, the line isn't being used to form an image, it is the image. The line isn't being used to depict a subject, it is the subject.
I strongly recommend that, prior to condemning it and closing yourself to it, you experience a Twombly work in one of the many museum's worldwide that display him. That is really the key, at least for me. Twombly's work is an exeperience, it is interactive, emotional, and alive. If it grabs you, take the next step and read up on Twombly. Gain insight into the intelligence and the methods behind his work. There is much richness there that can benefit your life by expanding your horizons.
Or, you may still think his work is garbage. that is your right.
James.. this is f**ken crap. Please explain why this piece is a good piece?? Its in no way pleasing to the eye, witty, attractive, sexy, conceptual, creative etc etc. It only falls into the crap bracket.... Explain what its about. Explain why its worth 2 Mill. Its for people who have more money than sense.. It's worth 2 million because someone will pay that for it. Valuation does not equal, or even usually reflect, merit. Of all the adjectives you used, I strongly disagree with stating that it is not witty, conceptual, and creative. You have to understand the time frame this piece was done in. It is from 1958, when abstract art was far rarer and representational/figurative still was the dominant, accepted form. While it may not appear groundbreaking now, this was raw, cerebral, revolutionary work at the time. Pollock, and Twombly, changed the game forever with their 1950's work. This particular piece, like much of Twombly's catalogue, celebrates the power of the line and mark-making, elevating it to become the primary focus. In this work, the line isn't being used to form an image, it is the image. The line isn't being used to depict a subject, it is the subject. I strongly recommend that, prior to condemning it and closing yourself to it, you experience a Twombly work in one of the many museum's worldwide that display him. That is really the key, at least for me. Twombly's work is an exeperience, it is interactive, emotional, and alive. If it grabs you, take the next step and read up on Twombly. Gain insight into the intelligence and the methods behind his work. There is much richness there that can benefit your life by expanding your horizons. Or, you may still think his work is garbage. that is your right.
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by crazyarsemother on Feb 6, 2008 23:44:13 GMT 1, We sit here in a privilaged position of being able to look back at individual pieces of art over the last 100 years and judge them on their own aesthetic merits. Much of the worth of these works becomes apparent when they are placed within their historical context as James is pointing. In 50 years time people will look back at a stencil of a cartoon rat with a hat on and say Β£18,000 - so what - I can do that. In fact as Jed has proved its not exactly hard.
We sit here in a privilaged position of being able to look back at individual pieces of art over the last 100 years and judge them on their own aesthetic merits. Much of the worth of these works becomes apparent when they are placed within their historical context as James is pointing. In 50 years time people will look back at a stencil of a cartoon rat with a hat on and say Β£18,000 - so what - I can do that. In fact as Jed has proved its not exactly hard.
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jamesreeve5
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by jamesreeve5 on Feb 6, 2008 23:45:52 GMT 1, I'm glad you can see through all of that academic mumbo jumbo for what it really is f5. I know of an artist who perfectly agrees with you opinion.
www.adequacy.org/stories/2001.8.30.224414.169.html
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Gurn
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by Gurn on Feb 6, 2008 23:48:33 GMT 1, An interesting debate for sure,I can see both sides of the story here.To raise a thread about Expressionism and its merits(and financial value) on a Banksy forum was always gonna be interesting.Especially as this amount of money is way beyond a large majority on here.James you appear to be a very well versed(if a little patronising) fellow on American art,so thanks for enlightening us numbskulls...for my tuppence worth though,If I had 2million to spend on art it wouldn't be on this.
An interesting debate for sure,I can see both sides of the story here.To raise a thread about Expressionism and its merits(and financial value) on a Banksy forum was always gonna be interesting.Especially as this amount of money is way beyond a large majority on here.James you appear to be a very well versed(if a little patronising) fellow on American art,so thanks for enlightening us numbskulls...for my tuppence worth though,If I had 2million to spend on art it wouldn't be on this.
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f5ers
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by f5ers on Feb 6, 2008 23:50:49 GMT 1, James.. very evasive.. but you never explained what was so good about the scribble
James.. very evasive.. but you never explained what was so good about the scribble
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by crazyarsemother on Feb 6, 2008 23:51:52 GMT 1, Oh my god that link is hideous.
Oh my god that link is hideous.
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neutral
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by neutral on Feb 6, 2008 23:54:12 GMT 1, This thread is priceless !!!
This thread is priceless !!!
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Gurn
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by Gurn on Feb 6, 2008 23:58:04 GMT 1, 8-)Help,my eyes,my eyes
8-)Help,my eyes,my eyes
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by crazyarsemother on Feb 6, 2008 23:59:35 GMT 1, f5 why don't you explain why its sh**e. It might be more interesting.
f5 why don't you explain why its sh**e. It might be more interesting.
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jamesreeve5
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by jamesreeve5 on Feb 7, 2008 0:07:24 GMT 1, Sorry Gurn, I don't mean to be patronizing, but thank you for your compliments...
I cannot speak for this particular CT piece as I am not familiar with it. Most likely done 50 years ago, it represents a breaking away from not only figurative tradition, but nearly abstract tradition as well. It takes Modernism, and Abstract Expression (the kind epitomized by Pollock) to a new level. Whereas Pollock was just painting purely what he felt, Twombly presents the remains of an emotional reaction (the Iliad, the four seasons). This in some respects might be easier for the viewer as they have a physical thing to reference the visual on (literature or music). Furthermore his style extends beyond the brush (and beyond Pollocks brush drip technique) into using his body and any number of other things, something that could be seen as a precursor to the spraycan as brush. While his pictures may look like scribbles, he was obsessed with classical composition, and when looking at the pieces in person one can see how well the "scribble" actually fills the canvas, something that the artist Basquiat was quite good at doing as well.
Sorry Gurn, I don't mean to be patronizing, but thank you for your compliments...
I cannot speak for this particular CT piece as I am not familiar with it. Most likely done 50 years ago, it represents a breaking away from not only figurative tradition, but nearly abstract tradition as well. It takes Modernism, and Abstract Expression (the kind epitomized by Pollock) to a new level. Whereas Pollock was just painting purely what he felt, Twombly presents the remains of an emotional reaction (the Iliad, the four seasons). This in some respects might be easier for the viewer as they have a physical thing to reference the visual on (literature or music). Furthermore his style extends beyond the brush (and beyond Pollocks brush drip technique) into using his body and any number of other things, something that could be seen as a precursor to the spraycan as brush. While his pictures may look like scribbles, he was obsessed with classical composition, and when looking at the pieces in person one can see how well the "scribble" actually fills the canvas, something that the artist Basquiat was quite good at doing as well.
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jamesreeve5
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by jamesreeve5 on Feb 7, 2008 0:09:28 GMT 1, f5 why don't you explain why its sh**e. It might be more interesting.
good idea
f5 why don't you explain why its sh**e. It might be more interesting. good idea
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f5ers
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by f5ers on Feb 7, 2008 0:10:57 GMT 1, Did you just copy that from one of your so called books
Did you just copy that from one of your so called books
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jamesreeve5
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by jamesreeve5 on Feb 7, 2008 0:11:03 GMT 1, 8-)Help,my eyes,my eyes
read the article though, and it sounds quite a bit like attitude on the first page of this thread...
8-)Help,my eyes,my eyes read the article though, and it sounds quite a bit like attitude on the first page of this thread...
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Gurn
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Bonhams β’ Art Auctions β’ London π¬π§, by Gurn on Feb 7, 2008 0:15:22 GMT 1, I've just been looking at the "Lapanto" series for the 2001 Venice Biennale and have to say that the piece on this thread does not do him justice to someone who is uninitiated....Not really a fan of Pollock but love what I've seen of Clyfford Still(or am I moving into pure abstraction now)............stop me if I'm talking bollocks ;D
I've just been looking at the "Lapanto" series for the 2001 Venice Biennale and have to say that the piece on this thread does not do him justice to someone who is uninitiated....Not really a fan of Pollock but love what I've seen of Clyfford Still(or am I moving into pure abstraction now)............stop me if I'm talking bollocks ;D
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