tab1
Full Member
๐จ๏ธ 8,519
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September 2011
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by tab1 on Jan 8, 2019 2:18:58 GMT 1, banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1190239229&page=1I started an identical thread. How strange. However mine was concerned with Micallef, who decided to flood the market with massively overpriced prints, which created ugly scenes of greed and carnage outside Laz's gallery. Here we have a limited number of desirable items and an ever increasing number of people who want them. So it's not like the tulip bubble, no. Bongo is kind of right but he is a capslock-loving idealist. Most people do try to buy what they like, but it is difficult to remove the taint and allure of monetary gain from your decision making.
2nd cycle of the print bubble approaching with prints by new artists selling for ยฃ1000 at release now
banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1190239229&page=1I started an identical thread. How strange. However mine was concerned with Micallef, who decided to flood the market with massively overpriced prints, which created ugly scenes of greed and carnage outside Laz's gallery. Here we have a limited number of desirable items and an ever increasing number of people who want them. So it's not like the tulip bubble, no. Bongo is kind of right but he is a capslock-loving idealist. Most people do try to buy what they like, but it is difficult to remove the taint and allure of monetary gain from your decision making. 2nd cycle of the print bubble approaching with prints by new artists selling for ยฃ1000 at release now |
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lg2771
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 523
๐๐ป 329
December 2017
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by lg2771 on Jan 8, 2019 2:34:24 GMT 1, banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1190239229&page=1I started an identical thread. How strange. However mine was concerned with Micallef, who decided to flood the market with massively overpriced prints, which created ugly scenes of greed and carnage outside Laz's gallery. Here we have a limited number of desirable items and an ever increasing number of people who want them. So it's not like the tulip bubble, no. Bongo is kind of right but he is a capslock-loving idealist. Most people do try to buy what they like, but it is difficult to remove the taint and allure of monetary gain from your decision making. 2nd cycle of the print bubble approaching with prints by new artists selling for ยฃ1000 at release now
At least that's my own personal opinion.
banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1190239229&page=1I started an identical thread. How strange. However mine was concerned with Micallef, who decided to flood the market with massively overpriced prints, which created ugly scenes of greed and carnage outside Laz's gallery. Here we have a limited number of desirable items and an ever increasing number of people who want them. So it's not like the tulip bubble, no. Bongo is kind of right but he is a capslock-loving idealist. Most people do try to buy what they like, but it is difficult to remove the taint and allure of monetary gain from your decision making. 2nd cycle of the print bubble approaching with prints by new artists selling for ยฃ1000 at release now I think it depends on the artist. Some artists crank out prints that aren't of supreme quality and sell them for a lot, while some artists don't sell a large quantity edition but their quality of a print is close to an original. A bubble doesn't relate solely to price as much as too much quantity at a high price. If a bubble bursts, it will be an artist's bubble, not the print game as a whole. At least that's my own personal opinion. |
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tab1
Full Member
๐จ๏ธ 8,519
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September 2011
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by tab1 on Jan 8, 2019 3:17:13 GMT 1, 2nd cycle of the print bubble approaching with prints by new artists selling for ยฃ1000 at release now I think it depends on the artist. Some artists crank out prints that aren't of supreme quality and sell them for a lot, while some artists don't sell a large quantity edition but their quality of a print is close to an original. A bubble doesn't relate solely to price as much as too much quantity at a high price. If a bubble bursts, it will be an artist's bubble, not the print game as a whole. At least that's my own personal opinion.
With the urban art scene new , and new artists can reference back dated trends example nick walker ,Adam neate, spqr, miccalef,dolk,blek etc from highs of 2006-2008
Where they achieved high auctions results and great print sales over a short period . some new artists or more so there representatives know the fame does not last for ever and release higher editions more frequently , do the sums , some print editions work out 100k+gbp and some case 2+ releases per year once all sold and greed in some cases prices each new release higher with edition sizes increased with people now accustomed to ยฃ1000 prints now think pricings will have an effect this time round.
Going through a lot of back dated threads it has always been the majority of seeking value in the next artist
2nd cycle of the print bubble approaching with prints by new artists selling for ยฃ1000 at release now I think it depends on the artist. Some artists crank out prints that aren't of supreme quality and sell them for a lot, while some artists don't sell a large quantity edition but their quality of a print is close to an original. A bubble doesn't relate solely to price as much as too much quantity at a high price. If a bubble bursts, it will be an artist's bubble, not the print game as a whole. At least that's my own personal opinion. With the urban art scene new , and new artists can reference back dated trends example nick walker ,Adam neate, spqr, miccalef,dolk,blek etc from highs of 2006-2008 Where they achieved high auctions results and great print sales over a short period . some new artists or more so there representatives know the fame does not last for ever and release higher editions more frequently , do the sums , some print editions work out 100k+gbp and some case 2+ releases per year once all sold and greed in some cases prices each new release higher with edition sizes increased with people now accustomed to ยฃ1000 prints now think pricings will have an effect this time round. Going through a lot of back dated threads it has always been the majority of seeking value in the next artist |
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lg2771
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 523
๐๐ป 329
December 2017
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by lg2771 on Jan 8, 2019 3:22:21 GMT 1, I think it depends on the artist. Some artists crank out prints that aren't of supreme quality and sell them for a lot, while some artists don't sell a large quantity edition but their quality of a print is close to an original. A bubble doesn't relate solely to price as much as too much quantity at a high price. If a bubble bursts, it will be an artist's bubble, not the print game as a whole. At least that's my own personal opinion. With the urban art scene new , and new artists can reference back dated trends example nick walker ,Adam neate, spqr, miccalef,dolk,blek etc from highs of 2006-2008 Where they achieved high auctions results and great print sales over a short period . some new artists or more so there representatives know the fame does not last for ever and release higher editions more frequently , do the sums , some print editions work out 100k+gbp and some case 2+ releases per year once all sold and greed in some cases prices each new release higher with edition sizes increased with people now accustomed to ยฃ1000 prints now think pricings will have an effect this time round. Going through a lot of back dated threads it has always been the majority of seeking value in the next artist
I agree. I would also say most of those artists failed to evolve in terms of their styles or evolved in a a not so good way. I still think that if an artist creates a low edition-quality print, price doesnโt matter so much. I think if thereโs quality and a continuous evolution in style that keeps improving in an artistโs work, people will always pay more. I also think we have to take into account inflation in prices as it may not seem like it but 2008 was a long time ago. 1000 dollars for a print now isnโt the same as it was in 2008. We may not like it but times are changing.
I think it depends on the artist. Some artists crank out prints that aren't of supreme quality and sell them for a lot, while some artists don't sell a large quantity edition but their quality of a print is close to an original. A bubble doesn't relate solely to price as much as too much quantity at a high price. If a bubble bursts, it will be an artist's bubble, not the print game as a whole. At least that's my own personal opinion. With the urban art scene new , and new artists can reference back dated trends example nick walker ,Adam neate, spqr, miccalef,dolk,blek etc from highs of 2006-2008 Where they achieved high auctions results and great print sales over a short period . some new artists or more so there representatives know the fame does not last for ever and release higher editions more frequently , do the sums , some print editions work out 100k+gbp and some case 2+ releases per year once all sold and greed in some cases prices each new release higher with edition sizes increased with people now accustomed to ยฃ1000 prints now think pricings will have an effect this time round. Going through a lot of back dated threads it has always been the majority of seeking value in the next artist I agree. I would also say most of those artists failed to evolve in terms of their styles or evolved in a a not so good way. I still think that if an artist creates a low edition-quality print, price doesnโt matter so much. I think if thereโs quality and a continuous evolution in style that keeps improving in an artistโs work, people will always pay more. I also think we have to take into account inflation in prices as it may not seem like it but 2008 was a long time ago. 1000 dollars for a print now isnโt the same as it was in 2008. We may not like it but times are changing. |
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tab1
Full Member
๐จ๏ธ 8,519
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September 2011
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by tab1 on Jan 8, 2019 4:55:37 GMT 1, With the urban art scene new , and new artists can reference back dated trends example nick walker ,Adam neate, spqr, miccalef,dolk,blek etc from highs of 2006-2008 Where they achieved high auctions results and great print sales over a short period . some new artists or more so there representatives know the fame does not last for ever and release higher editions more frequently , do the sums , some print editions work out 100k+gbp and some case 2+ releases per year once all sold and greed in some cases prices each new release higher with edition sizes increased with people now accustomed to ยฃ1000 prints now think pricings will have an effect this time round. Going through a lot of back dated threads it has always been the majority of seeking value in the next artist I agree. I would also say most of those artists failed to evolve in terms of their styles or evolved in a a not so good way. I still think that if an artist creates a low edition-quality print, price doesnโt matter so much. I think if thereโs quality and a continuous evolution in style that keeps improving in an artistโs work, people will always pay more. I also think we have to take into account inflation in prices as it may not seem like it but 2008 was a long time ago. 1000 dollars for a print now isnโt the same as it was in 2008. We may not like it but times are changing.
The amount of prints in an edition far out weighs canvas sales that the artist produces
In this scene as presented with the artists mentioned above their product is a commodity and has value once they produce a particular style that sells out as a print edition they stick with that style until the buyers get bored but then they try to evolve but too late and have lost their market and collectors , collectors seek value , artists too scared to evolve And try different styles once they have found their niche market as this will effect the money sales . Even small editions are effected , stik for example .
Disclaimer ๐ฌthis does not apply to all๐
With the urban art scene new , and new artists can reference back dated trends example nick walker ,Adam neate, spqr, miccalef,dolk,blek etc from highs of 2006-2008 Where they achieved high auctions results and great print sales over a short period . some new artists or more so there representatives know the fame does not last for ever and release higher editions more frequently , do the sums , some print editions work out 100k+gbp and some case 2+ releases per year once all sold and greed in some cases prices each new release higher with edition sizes increased with people now accustomed to ยฃ1000 prints now think pricings will have an effect this time round. Going through a lot of back dated threads it has always been the majority of seeking value in the next artist I agree. I would also say most of those artists failed to evolve in terms of their styles or evolved in a a not so good way. I still think that if an artist creates a low edition-quality print, price doesnโt matter so much. I think if thereโs quality and a continuous evolution in style that keeps improving in an artistโs work, people will always pay more. I also think we have to take into account inflation in prices as it may not seem like it but 2008 was a long time ago. 1000 dollars for a print now isnโt the same as it was in 2008. We may not like it but times are changing. The amount of prints in an edition far out weighs canvas sales that the artist produces In this scene as presented with the artists mentioned above their product is a commodity and has value once they produce a particular style that sells out as a print edition they stick with that style until the buyers get bored but then they try to evolve but too late and have lost their market and collectors , collectors seek value , artists too scared to evolve And try different styles once they have found their niche market as this will effect the money sales . Even small editions are effected , stik for example . Disclaimer ๐ฌthis does not apply to all๐ |
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lg2771
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 523
๐๐ป 329
December 2017
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by lg2771 on Jan 8, 2019 5:02:28 GMT 1, I agree. I would also say most of those artists failed to evolve in terms of their styles or evolved in a a not so good way. I still think that if an artist creates a low edition-quality print, price doesnโt matter so much. I think if thereโs quality and a continuous evolution in style that keeps improving in an artistโs work, people will always pay more. I also think we have to take into account inflation in prices as it may not seem like it but 2008 was a long time ago. 1000 dollars for a print now isnโt the same as it was in 2008. We may not like it but times are changing. The amount of prints in an edition far out weighs canvas sales that the artist produces In this scene as presented with the artists mentioned above their product is a commodity and has value once they produce a particular style that sells out as a print edition they stick with that style until the buyers get bored but then they try to evolve but too late and have lost their market and collectors , collectors seek value , artists too scared to evolve And try different styles once they have found their niche market as this will effect the money sales . Even small editions are effected , stik for example . Disclaimer ๐ฌthis does not apply to all๐
๐ so we agree. A bubble burst is coming, but only for a select few.
I agree. I would also say most of those artists failed to evolve in terms of their styles or evolved in a a not so good way. I still think that if an artist creates a low edition-quality print, price doesnโt matter so much. I think if thereโs quality and a continuous evolution in style that keeps improving in an artistโs work, people will always pay more. I also think we have to take into account inflation in prices as it may not seem like it but 2008 was a long time ago. 1000 dollars for a print now isnโt the same as it was in 2008. We may not like it but times are changing. The amount of prints in an edition far out weighs canvas sales that the artist produces In this scene as presented with the artists mentioned above their product is a commodity and has value once they produce a particular style that sells out as a print edition they stick with that style until the buyers get bored but then they try to evolve but too late and have lost their market and collectors , collectors seek value , artists too scared to evolve And try different styles once they have found their niche market as this will effect the money sales . Even small editions are effected , stik for example . Disclaimer ๐ฌthis does not apply to all๐ ๐ so we agree. A bubble burst is coming, but only for a select few. |
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tab1
Full Member
๐จ๏ธ 8,519
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September 2011
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by tab1 on Jan 8, 2019 5:17:30 GMT 1, The amount of prints in an edition far out weighs canvas sales that the artist produces In this scene as presented with the artists mentioned above their product is a commodity and has value once they produce a particular style that sells out as a print edition they stick with that style until the buyers get bored but then they try to evolve but too late and have lost their market and collectors , collectors seek value , artists too scared to evolve And try different styles once they have found their niche market as this will effect the money sales . Even small editions are effected , stik for example . Disclaimer ๐ฌthis does not apply to all๐ ๐ so we agree. A bubble burst is coming, but only for a select few.
The amount of prints in an edition far out weighs canvas sales that the artist produces In this scene as presented with the artists mentioned above their product is a commodity and has value once they produce a particular style that sells out as a print edition they stick with that style until the buyers get bored but then they try to evolve but too late and have lost their market and collectors , collectors seek value , artists too scared to evolve And try different styles once they have found their niche market as this will effect the money sales . Even small editions are effected , stik for example . Disclaimer ๐ฌthis does not apply to all๐ ๐ so we agree. A bubble burst is coming, but only for a select few. Agree with the select few and if follows past traits will be the popular must have now artists that everyone else is buying so I must have ! |
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Mirus Gallery
Art Gallery
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 193
๐๐ป 284
March 2014
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by Mirus Gallery on Jan 8, 2019 5:52:43 GMT 1, I doubt there is an overall market Bubble for prints as this forum and its niche collector base really are a drop in the bucket to the whole of the art market. Originals sell consistently from blue chip galleries and mid tier galleries. These artworks are never talked about in the forum but drastically out sell the market cap of this small street art print market.
As far as the Street art/graffiti scene goes I think because prices for originals have gone up for the most part from the more known players, prints are some buyers only entry point to these artists. Yet I don't think the print market is a bubble. I would say that some artists particular those traded in this forum are always speculated and flipped. This looks like a bubble cause the outrageous prices but over time like many things overpriced you will see corrections. The amount of new collectors is also hurting the street art/graffiti market as established collectors have already bought say 1 piece from artists they are interested in and those collectors won't keep buying the same artist in most cases. This lack of demand and growth from new collectors who are educating in this genre is leading to a declining market. Usually a new buyer will take less of risk and buy a print in most cases which is good, but it is still not making up for what was happening 3-5 years ago pre-instagram. Also as collectors get more experience they tend to make less impulsive buys on both fronts, which is happening in this genre.
I stated in the past when Instagram gained popularity and more and more collectors started to buy direct from emerging artists it would in some cases lead to stagnation in the artists work and start to hurt their overall market. Many people buy reasonably priced originals and commission work from artists and they keep busy and collectors are happy. Yet you see less substantial exhibitions where an artist is allowed to create a large body of cohesive work. Artists work on commissions for older work in many cases. I've seen many stuck in this cycle and 2-3 years pass and when the commissions dry up they are left with an absence from the gallery scene, and work that hasn't progressed much. Many galleries like myself have recently witnessed artists cannibalizing their own market. Artists that used to sell out shows or sell at least 3/4 of a show cant even sell 1/4 of a show now. It's not even guaranteed a Gallery even gives them a chance knowing they are selling direct and directly competing with themselves. It's a weird time for both art and gallery in our genre. Time will tell what will happen, but smart artists are taking the long term plan versus the month to month plan. Not sure this has to do with a Bubble, but there is definitely some corrections happening over the past years for artists and galleries. You see galleries also going out of business making it even hard for artists to show work. Galleries must make more educated decisions when representing artists as well, which adds yet another layer to all this change. Instagram has been a gift and a curse in many ways.
I doubt there is an overall market Bubble for prints as this forum and its niche collector base really are a drop in the bucket to the whole of the art market. Originals sell consistently from blue chip galleries and mid tier galleries. These artworks are never talked about in the forum but drastically out sell the market cap of this small street art print market.
As far as the Street art/graffiti scene goes I think because prices for originals have gone up for the most part from the more known players, prints are some buyers only entry point to these artists. Yet I don't think the print market is a bubble. I would say that some artists particular those traded in this forum are always speculated and flipped. This looks like a bubble cause the outrageous prices but over time like many things overpriced you will see corrections. The amount of new collectors is also hurting the street art/graffiti market as established collectors have already bought say 1 piece from artists they are interested in and those collectors won't keep buying the same artist in most cases. This lack of demand and growth from new collectors who are educating in this genre is leading to a declining market. Usually a new buyer will take less of risk and buy a print in most cases which is good, but it is still not making up for what was happening 3-5 years ago pre-instagram. Also as collectors get more experience they tend to make less impulsive buys on both fronts, which is happening in this genre.
I stated in the past when Instagram gained popularity and more and more collectors started to buy direct from emerging artists it would in some cases lead to stagnation in the artists work and start to hurt their overall market. Many people buy reasonably priced originals and commission work from artists and they keep busy and collectors are happy. Yet you see less substantial exhibitions where an artist is allowed to create a large body of cohesive work. Artists work on commissions for older work in many cases. I've seen many stuck in this cycle and 2-3 years pass and when the commissions dry up they are left with an absence from the gallery scene, and work that hasn't progressed much. Many galleries like myself have recently witnessed artists cannibalizing their own market. Artists that used to sell out shows or sell at least 3/4 of a show cant even sell 1/4 of a show now. It's not even guaranteed a Gallery even gives them a chance knowing they are selling direct and directly competing with themselves. It's a weird time for both art and gallery in our genre. Time will tell what will happen, but smart artists are taking the long term plan versus the month to month plan. Not sure this has to do with a Bubble, but there is definitely some corrections happening over the past years for artists and galleries. You see galleries also going out of business making it even hard for artists to show work. Galleries must make more educated decisions when representing artists as well, which adds yet another layer to all this change. Instagram has been a gift and a curse in many ways.
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Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 9:23:21 GMT 1, 2008 : "there is no bubble"
2008 : "there is no bubble"
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Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 11:57:39 GMT 1, Whether there's a 'bubble' or not, I'm not sure but I do think that some (many) artists are charging hugely inflated prices for their work.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if some stuff you buy for $500 today will be for sale for less than $50 in a few years time.
Whether there's a 'bubble' or not, I'm not sure but I do think that some (many) artists are charging hugely inflated prices for their work.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if some stuff you buy for $500 today will be for sale for less than $50 in a few years time.
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Guy Denning
Artist
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 636
๐๐ป 1,281
July 2007
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by Guy Denning on Jan 8, 2019 12:53:30 GMT 1, Don't be too quick to heap blame on the artists. The gallerist can frequently push the artist into a position where they feel they have to agree to everything the gallery demands. Galleries can afford to pop an artist's bubble - they just move to the next rising star they've discovered/hyped/created...
It takes a lot to tell a gallery to keep the prices down (particularly if you've had years of working without financial reward). I know.
I've had galleries reject my work because I will not lift prices to a comparable level to their other artists' work.
And I still say that prints should be affordable - unless the print is the only medium the artist works in - then there's some justification for higher prices (but a moderated edition size).
Don't be too quick to heap blame on the artists. The gallerist can frequently push the artist into a position where they feel they have to agree to everything the gallery demands. Galleries can afford to pop an artist's bubble - they just move to the next rising star they've discovered/hyped/created...
It takes a lot to tell a gallery to keep the prices down (particularly if you've had years of working without financial reward). I know.
I've had galleries reject my work because I will not lift prices to a comparable level to their other artists' work.
And I still say that prints should be affordable - unless the print is the only medium the artist works in - then there's some justification for higher prices (but a moderated edition size).
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Guy Denning
Artist
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 636
๐๐ป 1,281
July 2007
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by Guy Denning on Jan 8, 2019 12:57:55 GMT 1, And while we're on here... isn't it nice, squidgy, warm, soft and comforting to see BONGO's moniker on the forum again ;-)
And while we're on here... isn't it nice, squidgy, warm, soft and comforting to see BONGO's moniker on the forum again ;-) |
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by Daniel Silk on Jan 8, 2019 13:41:12 GMT 1, Yeah, I think when an artist is selling pieces for under ยฃ100 is easy to build up a fan base of true fans who are maybe more likely to stick with you during your career, but when itโs gets to ยฃ1,000 per print maybe those types of serious collectors are more likely to drop you! And move on to the next must have fashionable artist.
Yeah, I think when an artist is selling pieces for under ยฃ100 is easy to build up a fan base of true fans who are maybe more likely to stick with you during your career, but when itโs gets to ยฃ1,000 per print maybe those types of serious collectors are more likely to drop you! And move on to the next must have fashionable artist.
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jbelleit
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 764
๐๐ป 605
April 2017
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by jbelleit on Jan 8, 2019 15:17:38 GMT 1, But I would also like to add that art is dependent on the economy as a whole. In 2008, when the world's economy took a nose dive due to inflated real estate values, people were hocking their paintings/prints at much less than what they paid. The smart (and liquid) people like Buffett took advantage of the market and bought stocks at prices less than their value. I am pretty sure their were people who did the same with the art market.
But I would also like to add that art is dependent on the economy as a whole. In 2008, when the world's economy took a nose dive due to inflated real estate values, people were hocking their paintings/prints at much less than what they paid. The smart (and liquid) people like Buffett took advantage of the market and bought stocks at prices less than their value. I am pretty sure their were people who did the same with the art market.
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tab1
Full Member
๐จ๏ธ 8,519
๐๐ป 3,679
September 2011
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by tab1 on Jan 8, 2019 16:19:17 GMT 1, Don't be too quick to heap blame on the artists. The gallerist can frequently push the artist into a position where they feel they have to agree to everything the gallery demands. Galleries can afford to pop an artist's bubble - they just move to the next rising star they've discovered/hyped/created... It takes a lot to tell a gallery to keep the prices down (particularly if you've had years of working without financial reward). I know. I've had galleries reject my work because I will not lift prices to a comparable level to their other artists' work. And I still say that prints should be affordable - unless the print is the only medium the artist works in - then there's some justification for higher prices (but a moderated edition size).
This is where galleries / print houses take advantage as they have been around considerably longer than the artists they represent and know how to play the market.also if low end or mid tier they know the artists will move on from representation to higher end galleries if become popular so justified in their eyes to make as much as they can in the process getting the artist releasing bigger edition size and increasing the sales to maximum amounts although some artists like to keep prices down as they know their true fans may not afford their representation is only concerned with financial rewards.as said artists suffer and gallery can move on to the next hot artist.
Another more common trend is galleries now releasing at market prices using eBay figures?!!
Don't be too quick to heap blame on the artists. The gallerist can frequently push the artist into a position where they feel they have to agree to everything the gallery demands. Galleries can afford to pop an artist's bubble - they just move to the next rising star they've discovered/hyped/created... It takes a lot to tell a gallery to keep the prices down (particularly if you've had years of working without financial reward). I know. I've had galleries reject my work because I will not lift prices to a comparable level to their other artists' work. And I still say that prints should be affordable - unless the print is the only medium the artist works in - then there's some justification for higher prices (but a moderated edition size). This is where galleries / print houses take advantage as they have been around considerably longer than the artists they represent and know how to play the market.also if low end or mid tier they know the artists will move on from representation to higher end galleries if become popular so justified in their eyes to make as much as they can in the process getting the artist releasing bigger edition size and increasing the sales to maximum amounts although some artists like to keep prices down as they know their true fans may not afford their representation is only concerned with financial rewards.as said artists suffer and gallery can move on to the next hot artist. Another more common trend is galleries now releasing at market prices using eBay figures?!! |
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by Daniel Silk on Apr 26, 2021 2:44:20 GMT 1, I donโt think itโs a bubble, I just think the World is going through massive changes, with hundreds of millions starting to have surplus money to spend on luxury items. In the past 10 years we have all started buying online and from all over the world, we are individually buying direct from the countries that manufacture, rather than via are local shops.
These changes are not a bubble, they are a opening of a World Market.
I donโt think itโs a bubble, I just think the World is going through massive changes, with hundreds of millions starting to have surplus money to spend on luxury items. In the past 10 years we have all started buying online and from all over the world, we are individually buying direct from the countries that manufacture, rather than via are local shops.
These changes are not a bubble, they are a opening of a World Market.
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acaipride
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 906
๐๐ป 447
April 2020
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by acaipride on Apr 26, 2021 3:29:36 GMT 1, Overall I do believe we are in a bubble. Though it is a penetrable bubble, take for example my lastest pick up from a member on here..Martin Whatson 's Panda. I first set out an and the ones living in a MW bubble came out to defend their 2500 price tag...until a few days later I received a PM and picked it up for 1740usd including shipping and ppfees. So imo, the bubble does exists,it's a micro cluster of bubbles making up the macro of the art bubble.
Overall I do believe we are in a bubble. Though it is a penetrable bubble, take for example my lastest pick up from a member on here..Martin Whatson 's Panda. I first set out an and the ones living in a MW bubble came out to defend their 2500 price tag...until a few days later I received a PM and picked it up for 1740usd including shipping and ppfees. So imo, the bubble does exists,it's a micro cluster of bubbles making up the macro of the art bubble.
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by iforgot my username on Apr 26, 2021 5:17:44 GMT 1, Overall I do believe we are in a bubble. Though it is a penetrable bubble, take for example my lastest pick up from a member on here..Martin Whatson 's Panda. I first set out anIn Search Ofand the ones living in a MW bubble came out to defend their 2500 price tag...until a few days later I received a PM and picked it up for 1740usd including shipping and ppfees. So imo, the bubble does exists,it's a micro cluster of bubbles making up the macro of the art bubble.
Thank you!
CHEERS!
Overall I do believe we are in a bubble. Though it is a penetrable bubble, take for example my lastest pick up from a member on here..Martin Whatson 's Panda. I first set out anIn Search Ofand the ones living in a MW bubble came out to defend their 2500 price tag...until a few days later I received a PM and picked it up for 1740usd including shipping and ppfees. So imo, the bubble does exists,it's a micro cluster of bubbles making up the macro of the art bubble. If someone has a Panda at this price please and thank you I will match this price all day errrrrr day.... Thank you! CHEERS! |
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+852
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 33
๐๐ป 41
January 2020
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by +852 on Apr 26, 2021 6:52:33 GMT 1, Here are the reasons for someone to start buying some art, from a person who has recently [last year] to buy some art [in the middle of a bubble as some say]
1. Like the art.
2. Not fan of oil painting or wooden furniture.
3. Something can enjoy.
4. Interesting hobby.
5. Once peel back the layers of this market, shocked to see the volume of trades etc.
6. Some people are passionate about it.
7. Some people really greedy about it.
8. Some people this is like a crack habit.
9. Diversification of investments, not all in one basket.
10. Liquid easy to relocate and sell, if have right pieces.
11. Bank rates are zero [interest not loan].
12. Low maintenance, unlike property or car.
13. Pretty low entry levels, few grand etc.
14. Market is totally rigged and 'managed' for the right artists.
15. Supply and Demand is controlled well by some,
16. Artsy is rubbish for availability generally listing items that they sold months ago.
17. Keep a tabs on what we have invested to make sure not go over a certain % of portfolio
18. If it blows, we will be ok not bet the house on it or taken out massive loans etc.
As for Millennials, they have no cash true, strapped up on Uni debt, and trying to leave home by the time they are 35... they also are not having children, so wait till they have a bank full of money in their late 30's to early 40's, -1% interest in the bank and stock market is touching the moon.
Here are the reasons for someone to start buying some art, from a person who has recently [last year] to buy some art [in the middle of a bubble as some say]
1. Like the art.
2. Not fan of oil painting or wooden furniture.
3. Something can enjoy.
4. Interesting hobby.
5. Once peel back the layers of this market, shocked to see the volume of trades etc.
6. Some people are passionate about it.
7. Some people really greedy about it.
8. Some people this is like a crack habit.
9. Diversification of investments, not all in one basket.
10. Liquid easy to relocate and sell, if have right pieces.
11. Bank rates are zero [interest not loan].
12. Low maintenance, unlike property or car.
13. Pretty low entry levels, few grand etc.
14. Market is totally rigged and 'managed' for the right artists.
15. Supply and Demand is controlled well by some,
16. Artsy is rubbish for availability generally listing items that they sold months ago.
17. Keep a tabs on what we have invested to make sure not go over a certain % of portfolio
18. If it blows, we will be ok not bet the house on it or taken out massive loans etc.
As for Millennials, they have no cash true, strapped up on Uni debt, and trying to leave home by the time they are 35... they also are not having children, so wait till they have a bank full of money in their late 30's to early 40's, -1% interest in the bank and stock market is touching the moon.
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Here are the reasons for someone to start buying some art, from a person who has recently [last year] to buy some art [in the middle of a bubble as some say]
1. I found I quite like street art/graffiti etc. I never really started looking at it much before until I went to one of those Affordable Art Fairs here in Hong Kong, and it switched something on in me.
2. Found not a fan of oil paintings or old wooden furniture.
3. We wanted something that we could both enjoy.
4. Shocked to see how much was being traded and how fast [especially in UAA] for the right artist; demand is there for the right people. There is also a lot of greed, which is a downside. Those bloody coke cans are a great example of that. I think people would sell their grandmother if she were signed by Banksy / Hirst etc. - I really wonder who these people are [that is where the bubble is the greed].
5. We want it partly to be an investment as we don't want all our eggs in one basket [property, stocks, business, etc.] to be quite diversified.
6. We wanted something that was quite liquid and could move easily, if needed, in different currencies.
7. Hong Kong is pretty much Zero tax and earns nothing in the bank.
8. Collecting prints etc., seems to be like a CRACK habit for a lot of people...lol
9. We wanted something that was pretty low maintenance and not many ongoing costs but could appreciate or at least not lose your money.
10. After a few cheaper purchases, we noted that there was a lot of, how do you call it... fixing of prices.. when a print sold in an auction for the more established artists. If it was a good price, every website and gallery adjusted their prices to suit, based on one sale on the other side of the world [this has just happened with Holly Weed / Scooter], a random sale in Japan and USA / UK prices were put straight up, there were more sold under that price probably on the same day. Looks quite coordinated/controlled.
So we decided a while ago that we would buy cheaper prints [the last ones were 15 Euros], but no point in putting all the money we have allowed into this type of artist that is more for the walls and maybe a struggle to sell if needed to, they are just purely because we like the art.
We would put some into the areas we thought are controlled and collected + already proved people are wanting them, accelerating prices.
11. Trying to buy these types of artists, we noted that many prices provided online are so ambitious that after watching for a while, we thought the market gets stuck until someone goes 'sod it' and just wants the print and has the cash, hits buy and everything moves up a rung on the ladder.
12. For some artists they really control the output, supply and demand.
13. Finally, as long as we keep the % of investment vs. net worth to manageable levels if it blows and the bubbles as some call it bursts, well, we have some nice prints that were how they were supposed to be enjoyed, but no harm is really done, just lost a bit of cash.
As for Millennials, they have no cash true, strapped up on Uni debt, and trying to leave home by the time they are 35... they also are not having children, so wait till they have a bank full of money in their late 30's to early 40's, -1% interest in the bank and stock market is touching the moon.
Terrible analysis particularly the last point is a big generalisation. I know so many millennials that have spent the last year in full time employment, the pandemic has meant they arenโt spending their income on meals, nice clothes, booze. Also many finished university and instead of renting an expensive apartment in London theyโve been working from their parents rent free but still earning a London wage. Almost their entire salary goes into their bank account. From here it is spent on speculative investments including crypto and art. |
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acaipride
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 906
๐๐ป 447
April 2020
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by acaipride on Apr 26, 2021 7:43:14 GMT 1, Overall I do believe we are in a bubble. Though it is a penetrable bubble, take for example my lastest pick up from a member on here..Martin Whatson 's Panda. I first set out anIn Search Ofand the ones living in a MW bubble came out to defend their 2500 price tag...until a few days later I received a PM and picked it up for 1740usd including shipping and ppfees. So imo, the bubble does exists,it's a micro cluster of bubbles making up the macro of the art bubble. So it's like a coca cola can signed by Damien Hirst that's unopened?
I didn't get the reference, I know hirst but I'm not into his work, though I hear it's a good investment
Overall I do believe we are in a bubble. Though it is a penetrable bubble, take for example my lastest pick up from a member on here..Martin Whatson 's Panda. I first set out anIn Search Ofand the ones living in a MW bubble came out to defend their 2500 price tag...until a few days later I received a PM and picked it up for 1740usd including shipping and ppfees. So imo, the bubble does exists,it's a micro cluster of bubbles making up the macro of the art bubble. So it's like a coca cola can signed by Damien Hirst that's unopened? I didn't get the reference, I know hirst but I'm not into his work, though I hear it's a good investment |
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acaipride
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 906
๐๐ป 447
April 2020
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by acaipride on Apr 26, 2021 7:45:21 GMT 1, Overall I do believe we are in a bubble. Though it is a penetrable bubble, take for example my lastest pick up from a member on here..Martin Whatson 's Panda. I first set out anIn Search Ofand the ones living in a MW bubble came out to defend their 2500 price tag...until a few days later I received a PM and picked it up for 1740usd including shipping and ppfees. So imo, the bubble does exists,it's a micro cluster of bubbles making up the macro of the art bubble. If someone has a Panda at this price please and thank you I will match this price all day errrrrr day.... Thank you! CHEERS!
I did get another msg at 2k all in but it was from the uk but I didn't want to take the risk in shipping...you may want to post a and more than likely you'll get a msg or two
Overall I do believe we are in a bubble. Though it is a penetrable bubble, take for example my lastest pick up from a member on here..Martin Whatson 's Panda. I first set out anIn Search Ofand the ones living in a MW bubble came out to defend their 2500 price tag...until a few days later I received a PM and picked it up for 1740usd including shipping and ppfees. So imo, the bubble does exists,it's a micro cluster of bubbles making up the macro of the art bubble. If someone has a Panda at this price please and thank you I will match this price all day errrrrr day.... Thank you! CHEERS! I did get another msg at 2k all in but it was from the uk but I didn't want to take the risk in shipping...you may want to post a and more than likely you'll get a msg or two |
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+852
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 33
๐๐ป 41
January 2020
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Here are the reasons for someone to start buying some art, from a person who has recently [last year] to buy some art [in the middle of a bubble as some say]
1. I found I quite like street art/graffiti etc. I never really started looking at it much before until I went to one of those Affordable Art Fairs here in Hong Kong, and it switched something on in me.
2. Found not a fan of oil paintings or old wooden furniture.
3. We wanted something that we could both enjoy.
4. Shocked to see how much was being traded and how fast [especially in UAA] for the right artist; demand is there for the right people. There is also a lot of greed, which is a downside. Those bloody coke cans are a great example of that. I think people would sell their grandmother if she were signed by Banksy / Hirst etc. - I really wonder who these people are [that is where the bubble is the greed].
5. We want it partly to be an investment as we don't want all our eggs in one basket [property, stocks, business, etc.] to be quite diversified.
6. We wanted something that was quite liquid and could move easily, if needed, in different currencies.
7. Hong Kong is pretty much Zero tax and earns nothing in the bank.
8. Collecting prints etc., seems to be like a CRACK habit for a lot of people...lol
9. We wanted something that was pretty low maintenance and not many ongoing costs but could appreciate or at least not lose your money.
10. After a few cheaper purchases, we noted that there was a lot of, how do you call it... fixing of prices.. when a print sold in an auction for the more established artists. If it was a good price, every website and gallery adjusted their prices to suit, based on one sale on the other side of the world [this has just happened with Holly Weed / Scooter], a random sale in Japan and USA / UK prices were put straight up, there were more sold under that price probably on the same day. Looks quite coordinated/controlled.
So we decided a while ago that we would buy cheaper prints [the last ones were 15 Euros], but no point in putting all the money we have allowed into this type of artist that is more for the walls and maybe a struggle to sell if needed to, they are just purely because we like the art.
We would put some into the areas we thought are controlled and collected + already proved people are wanting them, accelerating prices.
11. Trying to buy these types of artists, we noted that many prices provided online are so ambitious that after watching for a while, we thought the market gets stuck until someone goes 'sod it' and just wants the print and has the cash, hits buy and everything moves up a rung on the ladder.
12. For some artists they really control the output, supply and demand.
13. Finally, as long as we keep the % of investment vs. net worth to manageable levels if it blows and the bubbles as some call it bursts, well, we have some nice prints that were how they were supposed to be enjoyed, but no harm is really done, just lost a bit of cash.
As for Millennials, they have no cash true, strapped up on Uni debt, and trying to leave home by the time they are 35... they also are not having children, so wait till they have a bank full of money in their late 30's to early 40's, -1% interest in the bank and stock market is touching the moon.
Terrible analysis particularly the last point is a big generalisation. I know so many millennials that have spent the last year in full time employment, the pandemic has meant they arenโt spending their income on meals, nice clothes, booze. Also many finished university and instead of renting an expensive apartment in London theyโve been working from their parents rent free but still earning a London wage. Almost their entire salary goes into their bank account. From here it is spent on speculative investments including crypto and art. 'terrible analysis'... Bit confused...the main of the post was not an analysis?. I was explaining why I have started to buy some art as a relative new comer, as a hobby and diversification hence helping the bubble get bigger. Went on to note that aslong, as a newcomer, we don't bet the house, keep it single digit risk, the bubble is not to much an issue. Answering the topic basically saying, 'who knows if a bubble, no one does, manage fallout if are and it hits, don't get caught with pants down' |
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Graham H
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,304
๐๐ป 2,417
November 2012
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by Graham H on Apr 26, 2021 9:19:04 GMT 1, No wonder we have seen decreases in auction results looking at that report.. the buyers market can only support so many buyers with the interest and the cash at the prices things now are.
Id be more saying its a bad thing that in the first 4 months we have seen as much money paid as the whole of 2020 rather than it being a headline good thing
It was inevitable that the market would get flooded with the increases during last year.. but looking objectively, the prices achieved are still unbelievable relative to 2 , 5 and 10 years ago
No wonder we have seen decreases in auction results looking at that report.. the buyers market can only support so many buyers with the interest and the cash at the prices things now are. Id be more saying its a bad thing that in the first 4 months we have seen as much money paid as the whole of 2020 rather than it being a headline good thing It was inevitable that the market would get flooded with the increases during last year.. but looking objectively, the prices achieved are still unbelievable relative to 2 , 5 and 10 years ago |
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by Jeezuz Jones Snr on Apr 26, 2021 9:55:39 GMT 1, No wonder we have seen decreases in auction results looking at that report.. the buyers market can only support so many buyers with the interest and the cash at the prices things now are. Id be more saying its a bad thing that in the first 4 months we have seen as much money paid as the whole of 2020 rather than it being a headline good thing It was inevitable that the market would get flooded with the increases during last year.. but looking objectively, the prices achieved are still unbelievable relative to 2 , 5 and 10 years agoย
I remember talking six months ago on another thread about stimulus and government hand outs. The rich have made so much money during covid and they've had nothing to spend on as they weren't going on lavish holidays etc, so they've been investing.
Here in Australia stimulus stopped a month ago so investing in assets should start to cool off. Housing gone up hugely in last year due to low interest rates and handouts,it should start to pull back. Art gone through the roof but should slow. I spoke to an Australian auction house and it's the busiest and most profitable they've ever been.
I cannot see Banksy prints dropping that much he's the only artist with pest control coa service. Seems a safe bet for investors. There's also the new youngsters who've made money from bitcoin, nft and other start ups and tech shares etc. They are investing in art also, so more competition to buy.
No wonder we have seen decreases in auction results looking at that report.. the buyers market can only support so many buyers with the interest and the cash at the prices things now are. Id be more saying its a bad thing that in the first 4 months we have seen as much money paid as the whole of 2020 rather than it being a headline good thing It was inevitable that the market would get flooded with the increases during last year.. but looking objectively, the prices achieved are still unbelievable relative to 2 , 5 and 10 years agoย I remember talking six months ago on another thread about stimulus and government hand outs. The rich have made so much money during covid and they've had nothing to spend on as they weren't going on lavish holidays etc, so they've been investing. Here in Australia stimulus stopped a month ago so investing in assets should start to cool off. Housing gone up hugely in last year due to low interest rates and handouts,it should start to pull back. Art gone through the roof but should slow. I spoke to an Australian auction house and it's the busiest and most profitable they've ever been. I cannot see Banksy prints dropping that much he's the only artist with pest control coa service. Seems a safe bet for investors. There's also the new youngsters who've made money from bitcoin, nft and other start ups and tech shares etc. They are investing in art also, so more competition to buy. |
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Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by Deleted on Apr 26, 2021 9:58:00 GMT 1, Overall I do believe we are in a bubble. Though it is a penetrable bubble, take for example my lastest pick up from a member on here..Martin Whatson 's Panda. I first set out anIn Search Ofand the ones living in a MW bubble came out to defend their 2500 price tag...until a few days later I received a PM and picked it up for 1740usd including shipping and ppfees. So imo, the bubble does exists,it's a micro cluster of bubbles making up the macro of the art bubble.
Does the bubble discussion apply at this end of the market, though? Artists like Banksy, Stik, etc. are seeing prices rocket into very high sums. If their markets collapse then there's a lot of money gone and the whole art industry panicked. Perhaps my understanding is wrong, but I think of bubble meaning that if it pops the entire market collapses.
A lot of the other artists we talk about on here, like Martin Whatson, aren't commanding big prices. If a Martin Whatson, Nick Smith or Mark Drew becomes worthless overnight, it's not going to cause much concern.
Overall I do believe we are in a bubble. Though it is a penetrable bubble, take for example my lastest pick up from a member on here..Martin Whatson 's Panda. I first set out anIn Search Ofand the ones living in a MW bubble came out to defend their 2500 price tag...until a few days later I received a PM and picked it up for 1740usd including shipping and ppfees. So imo, the bubble does exists,it's a micro cluster of bubbles making up the macro of the art bubble. Does the bubble discussion apply at this end of the market, though? Artists like Banksy, Stik, etc. are seeing prices rocket into very high sums. If their markets collapse then there's a lot of money gone and the whole art industry panicked. Perhaps my understanding is wrong, but I think of bubble meaning that if it pops the entire market collapses. A lot of the other artists we talk about on here, like Martin Whatson, aren't commanding big prices. If a Martin Whatson, Nick Smith or Mark Drew becomes worthless overnight, it's not going to cause much concern. |
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Reader
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,272
๐๐ป 2,831
June 2016
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by Reader on Apr 26, 2021 10:14:24 GMT 1, No wonder we have seen decreases in auction results looking at that report.. the buyers market can only support so many buyers with the interest and the cash at the prices things now are. Id be more saying its a bad thing that in the first 4 months we have seen as much money paid as the whole of 2020 rather than it being a headline good thing It was inevitable that the market would get flooded with the increases during last year.. but looking objectively, the prices achieved are still unbelievable relative to 2 , 5 and 10 years ago I remember talking six months ago on another thread about stimulus and government hand outs. The rich have made so much money during covid and they've had nothing to spend on as they weren't going on lavish holidays etc, so they've been investing. Here in Australia stimulus stopped a month ago so investing in assets should start to cool off. Housing gone up hugely in last year due to low interest rates and handouts,it should start to pull back. Art gone through the roof but should slow. I spoke to an Australian auction house and it's the busiest and most profitable they've ever been. I cannot see Banksy prints dropping that much he's the only artist with pest control coa service. Seems a safe bet for investors. There's also the new youngsters who've made money from bitcoin, nft and other start ups and tech shares etc. They are investing in art also, so more competition to buy.
No wonder we have seen decreases in auction results looking at that report.. the buyers market can only support so many buyers with the interest and the cash at the prices things now are. Id be more saying its a bad thing that in the first 4 months we have seen as much money paid as the whole of 2020 rather than it being a headline good thing It was inevitable that the market would get flooded with the increases during last year.. but looking objectively, the prices achieved are still unbelievable relative to 2 , 5 and 10 years ago I remember talking six months ago on another thread about stimulus and government hand outs. The rich have made so much money during covid and they've had nothing to spend on as they weren't going on lavish holidays etc, so they've been investing. Here in Australia stimulus stopped a month ago so investing in assets should start to cool off. Housing gone up hugely in last year due to low interest rates and handouts,it should start to pull back. Art gone through the roof but should slow. I spoke to an Australian auction house and it's the busiest and most profitable they've ever been. I cannot see Banksy prints dropping that much he's the only artist with pest control coa service. Seems a safe bet for investors. There's also the new youngsters who've made money from bitcoin, nft and other start ups and tech shares etc. They are investing in art also, so more competition to buy. I agree for the most, I think the author of the article is right in using the term "matured", so rather than a bubble we just see a levelling off and a pretty stable market for prints. It will just stop fluctuating and things will land in the reserve unless a super desirable work. Hopefully the people who just bought at these prices are going to hang them or sit on them for 10 years. |
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by Daniel Silk on Apr 26, 2021 10:37:43 GMT 1, I think the number of people Worldwide that are buying Art has increased massively over the past 10 years, and I cant see any reason of that to stop, with populations and prosperity always going up, it comes back again to supply and demand, the demands always growing, so it depends on the amount of work being released.
I think the number of people Worldwide that are buying Art has increased massively over the past 10 years, and I cant see any reason of that to stop, with populations and prosperity always going up, it comes back again to supply and demand, the demands always growing, so it depends on the amount of work being released.
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Georgie Poppit
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,558
๐๐ป 1,674
February 2021
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Are we in an Art Market Bubble?, by Georgie Poppit on Apr 26, 2021 10:59:47 GMT 1, Rightly or wrongly I think probably 90%+ of the art on this forum doesn't even register in the 'real' art world.
On a brighter note:
The UK economy is set to grow at its fastest rate on record this year, experts have predicted.
The EY Item Club has upgraded its 2021 growth forecast from 5% to 6.8%, which would mark the fastest rate seen since 1973.
Chief economic advisor Howard Archer said the economy had "proven to be more resilient than seemed possible".
Rightly or wrongly I think probably 90%+ of the art on this forum doesn't even register in the 'real' art world.
On a brighter note:
The UK economy is set to grow at its fastest rate on record this year, experts have predicted.
The EY Item Club has upgraded its 2021 growth forecast from 5% to 6.8%, which would mark the fastest rate seen since 1973.
Chief economic advisor Howard Archer said the economy had "proven to be more resilient than seemed possible".
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