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Banksy Laugh Now Print, by Missy Parrot on Aug 9, 2015 8:30:11 GMT 1, Hang up gallery had one for ยฃ7250 , I thought that was way over priced , I know someone on here purchased a LN mint , for ยฃ5450 last week from a forum member . I will pay ยฃ5.5-ยฃ6K for a mint - framed or unframed .cash or bank transfer . I will collect and I am happy to travel , unfortunately when a few people want the same print it can hype up a price on here . Fingers crossed someone will part with the monkey !
Hang up gallery had one for ยฃ7250 , I thought that was way over priced , I know someone on here purchased a LN mint , for ยฃ5450 last week from a forum member . I will pay ยฃ5.5-ยฃ6K for a mint - framed or unframed .cash or bank transfer . I will collect and I am happy to travel , unfortunately when a few people want the same print it can hype up a price on here . Fingers crossed someone will part with the monkey !
Hang up gallery had one for ยฃ7250 , I thought that was way over priced , I know someone on here purchased a LN mint , for ยฃ5450 last week from a forum member . I will pay ยฃ5.5-ยฃ6K for a mint - framed or unframed .cash or bank transfer . I will collect and I am happy to travel , unfortunately when a few people want the same print it can hype up a price on here . Fingers crossed someone will part with the monkey !
This one has grown on me over the last few years, The fun is in the chase....
Hang up gallery had one for ยฃ7250 , I thought that was way over priced , I know someone on here purchased a LN mint , for ยฃ5450 last week from a forum member . I will pay ยฃ5.5-ยฃ6K for a mint - framed or unframed .cash or bank transfer . I will collect and I am happy to travel , unfortunately when a few people want the same print it can hype up a price on here . Fingers crossed someone will part with the monkey !
This one has grown on me over the last few years, The fun is in the chase....
Banksy Laugh Now Print, by londonfx on Aug 9, 2015 10:51:23 GMT 1, The was a period of a week or 2 around 3 months ago. When it seemed that the only BanksyS up for sale were LN.
Got to be one of his most iconic and recognisable images
The was a period of a week or 2 around 3 months ago. When it seemed that the only BanksyS up for sale were LN.
Got to be one of his most iconic and recognisable images
Banksy Laugh Now Print, by DrWhite on Aug 9, 2015 11:01:53 GMT 1, Yep - this right up there with Flower Thrower & barcode & dare I say Girl With Balloon ?
Yep - this right up there with Flower Thrower & barcode & dare I say Girl With Balloon ?
The asking price on that one was ยฃ8k, which seems about right. IMO this will be ยฃ10k in the next year, one of his best images. The classics seem to be appreciating the fastest in value and become scarce, that would be LIITA, Laugh Now, GWB and Barcode. The unsigned versions have virtually double in a year.
The asking price on that one was ยฃ8k, which seems about right. IMO this will be ยฃ10k in the next year, one of his best images. The classics seem to be appreciating the fastest in value and become scarce, that would be LIITA, Laugh Now, GWB and Barcode. The unsigned versions have virtually double in a year.
Banksy Laugh Now Print, by craigf on Aug 9, 2015 13:21:33 GMT 1, If anyone is wondering about selling to Missy Parrot I can say she is one of the good eggs on here. I have sold two pieces to her, both times we had a fair negotiation as to what was a good price for both parties, she came to pick up and arrived when expected (and when stuck in traffic kept me informed as to where she was etc.) and there were no issues at all re payment. I wish all buyers were as realistic and straightforward to deal with
If anyone is wondering about selling to Missy Parrot I can say she is one of the good eggs on here. I have sold two pieces to her, both times we had a fair negotiation as to what was a good price for both parties, she came to pick up and arrived when expected (and when stuck in traffic kept me informed as to where she was etc.) and there were no issues at all re payment. I wish all buyers were as realistic and straightforward to deal with
Certainly is - but seems there are a lot of runners out there?
Be careful in any chase....
I chased a print a few years ago ... (No problems need I add).. It was , I was told at the time , used to fund a trip round the world... I did question my sanity at the time...
Certainly is - but seems there are a lot of runners out there?
Be careful in any chase....
I chased a print a few years ago ... (No problems need I add).. It was , I was told at the time , used to fund a trip round the world... I did question my sanity at the time...
Banksy Laugh Now Print, by Larry David on Aug 10, 2015 19:15:01 GMT 1, Have you checked the one on with Graffitti Street Sue? I have dealt with them before and worked a deal out and service was excellent, none of the smugness of HU !
Good luck on the search.
Have you checked the one on with Graffitti Street Sue? I have dealt with them before and worked a deal out and service was excellent, none of the smugness of HU !
Banksy Laugh Now Print, by Missy Parrot on Aug 11, 2015 0:06:51 GMT 1, Thanks for the heads up - I've email GS . Fingers crossed they accept my offer . Otherwise I'm going to have to buy the signed one
Thanks for the heads up - I've email GS . Fingers crossed they accept my offer . Otherwise I'm going to have to buy the signed one
Banksy Laugh Now Print, by rossyty on Aug 16, 2015 18:33:12 GMT 1, Hi. I am looking for a laugh now unsigned by Banksy. Not sure of price so please pm me with your offer and we can take it from there:) Have good references if needed of course. Am based in Norway but can make a deal about meeting up if someone wants.
Regards, Ross
Hi. I am looking for a laugh now unsigned by Banksy. Not sure of price so please pm me with your offer and we can take it from there:) Have good references if needed of course. Am based in Norway but can make a deal about meeting up if someone wants.
Agree have had loads of people agree to a sale only to go silent...
Although to be honest the exact opposite is also true.
I put out an on a Banksy a few weeks ago - I had an offer which l agreed to, only never to hear from the (very trusted) member again. BTW buddy if you read this and connect the dots let me know what's what, sincerely not a clue what happened her ! - I had another offer at a higher but still reasonable price, but when I asked who's name the COA was in I never heard back - I had a 3rd offer, but where the price was higher than what all galleries are charging so I see no upside in going down that route - I had offers for a boatload of prints I have never expressed any remote interest in.
In the meantime I contacted 3 galleries and will work out a deal with one of them I am sure. I will pay more (and to be honest not that much) but at least we are having a real conversation.
This is a forum, you can strike a deal at a better price than a gallery, you can find prints and canvases that are rarely seen, but there will always be a fair share of weird dealings
Interesting comments. Thank you for posting.
I haven't myself encountered time-wasting or dishonest game-playing by apparent sellers. Rather depressing to read, even if the number of occasions that this reverse situation has been raised seems lower than complaints by serious sellers of buyers going silent, disappearing or otherwise flaking.
In this thread I recall responding to someone caught out for lying about the fact they were interested in purchasing a specific Banksy print. They admitted having had zero intention of buying, and thus having misled and wasted the time of sellers. The reality was that this person already owned the Banksy print, wanted to sell it himself, and had been phishing for prices from other sellers here before deciding the level at which to pitch his.
With such clowns apparently being in great abundance, it's no wonder that genuine buyers and sellers need to stay on their guard, especially when dealing with someone for the first time.
May I ask what you meant by "(very trusted) member"? That's a difficult trait to evaluate with accuracy. For example, I have yet to see any real correlation between trustworthiness / respectable behaviour and the number of years a person has been a member of this forum. The same applies with a person's post count (bar notable exceptions like Coach), where one member (with some eye-with-waterfall-tears avatar) immediately comes to mind: Thousands of posts to his username, but these seem to consist almost entirely of (i) endless bumps of his multiple sale threads and (ii) requests for favours, i.e. asking other members to buy prints or signed books for him at cost, presumably for his future sales.
-------------------
Whether it's faux buyers or faux sellers, both scenarios come down to the same thing: There is a surprising number of people whose word is not their bond.
[The cavalierness by some, regarding whether to actually keep a promise and respect a physical or metaphorical handshake, actually makes me very uncomfortable. As a result, I try my best to avoid contact and any association with such individuals. It's one of the reasons I think the 'Not So Good Dealings With:' thread can be quite helpful, despite its shortcomings.]
As an aside, on this issue, a person's moral fibre cannot be reliably judged on the basis of simply having stayed true to their word. Someone's mettle is only really tested when a change in circumstance means an earlier benefit for them has ceased to exist, and it's no longer in their selfish interest to honour an agreement.
If, following such a change (e.g. a disadvantageous shift in the market), that person nevertheless continues to honour their earlier commitments, then consider yourself fortunate to have found a man or woman with integrity. They are worth hanging on to, whether as a friend, acquaintance or mere business contact.
Agree have had loads of people agree to a sale only to go silent...
Although to be honest the exact opposite is also true.
I put out an on a Banksy a few weeks ago - I had an offer which l agreed to, only never to hear from the (very trusted) member again. BTW buddy if you read this and connect the dots let me know what's what, sincerely not a clue what happened her ! - I had another offer at a higher but still reasonable price, but when I asked who's name the COA was in I never heard back - I had a 3rd offer, but where the price was higher than what all galleries are charging so I see no upside in going down that route - I had offers for a boatload of prints I have never expressed any remote interest in.
In the meantime I contacted 3 galleries and will work out a deal with one of them I am sure. I will pay more (and to be honest not that much) but at least we are having a real conversation.
This is a forum, you can strike a deal at a better price than a gallery, you can find prints and canvases that are rarely seen, but there will always be a fair share of weird dealings
Interesting comments. Thank you for posting.
I haven't myself encountered time-wasting or dishonest game-playing by apparent sellers. Rather depressing to read, even if the number of occasions that this reverse situation has been raised seems lower than complaints by serious sellers of buyers going silent, disappearing or otherwise flaking.
In this thread I recall responding to someone caught out for lying about the fact they were interested in purchasing a specific Banksy print. They admitted having had zero intention of buying, and thus having misled and wasted the time of sellers. The reality was that this person already owned the Banksy print, wanted to sell it himself, and had been phishing for prices from other sellers here before deciding the level at which to pitch his.
With such clowns apparently being in great abundance, it's no wonder that genuine buyers and sellers need to stay on their guard, especially when dealing with someone for the first time.
May I ask what you meant by "(very trusted) member"? That's a difficult trait to evaluate with accuracy. For example, I have yet to see any real correlation between trustworthiness / respectable behaviour and the number of years a person has been a member of this forum. The same applies with a person's post count (bar notable exceptions like Coach), where one member (with some eye-with-waterfall-tears avatar) immediately comes to mind: Thousands of posts to his username, but these seem to consist almost entirely of (i) endless bumps of his multiple sale threads and (ii) requests for favours, i.e. asking other members to buy prints or signed books for him at cost, presumably for his future sales.
-------------------
Whether it's faux buyers or faux sellers, both scenarios come down to the same thing: There is a surprising number of people whose word is not their bond.
[The cavalierness by some, regarding whether to actually keep a promise and respect a physical or metaphorical handshake, actually makes me very uncomfortable. As a result, I try my best to avoid contact and any association with such individuals. It's one of the reasons I think the 'Not So Good Dealings With:' thread can be quite helpful, despite its shortcomings.]
As an aside, on this issue, a person's moral fibre cannot be reliably judged on the basis of simply having stayed true to their word. Someone's mettle is only really tested when a change in circumstance means an earlier benefit for them has ceased to exist, and it's no longer in their selfish interest to honour an agreement.
If, following such a change (e.g. a disadvantageous shift in the market), that person nevertheless continues to honour their earlier commitments, then consider yourself fortunate to have found a man or woman with integrity. They are worth hanging on to, whether as a friend, acquaintance or mere business contact.
Can't help feeling 'met' that you're attempting to have a go at me for some reason? I have had no dealings with you, so am not sure why, but for the record:
I am not a time-waster, I am a genuine buyer - I do not intend vanish off the map and I have the funds available - in fact, I have bought 7 Banksy prints in the last 4 months
I am not and individual who allows myself to publicly indulge in a perpetual pipe dream - simply looking to extend my collection - I find this comment very strange. I have bought some beautiful pieces on here, from other likewise collectors for fair prices, rather than your inflated dealers or auction houses. I would rather pay my hard earned cash to a similar lover of Art, rather than a greedy dealer or auction house who take a high percentage of the sale price!
Finally, I find your step by step guide on how I should write my wanted post in the least condescending! I am willing to see what is on offer, signed or unsigned, framed or unframed, although i'm not sure who actually requests to buy a framed print, surely thats a matter of taste! I'm not willing to add my ceiling price, as all prices from sellers will be for that or above! After all, I want to buy something at a fair price - and I do not believe that is the way to do business. I am not a fantasist, i just want to buy some art, several forum members can vouch for that !
Lastly, if you do have a problem with me, instead of chapter and verse on my wanted post, why don't you PM me?
In response, and given the partially crossed wires, I'll go for comprehensiveness over conciseness. Do excuse the essay-length of what follows (more chapter and verse, I'm afraid). Feel free of course to also ignore.
1. Taking your first and last points together, I have no issue with you. Like you stated, we've never had dealings together โ or even previously exchanged opinions, as far as I recall. I therefore don't know you from Adam.
After spotting your original post in this thread, I used it as a foil for illustration. My feedback, while tailored, is equally applicable to any similar 'In search of' by other forum members. The fact that you โ as opposed to someone else โ happened to be the author is irrelevant to me; I was targeting what you wrote, not you as an individual.
So nothing personal. More often than not my comments are, on the contrary, deliberately clinical and impersonal. People can take umbrage and get defensive if they so wish; that's up to them. But my usual aim when expressing views is to be thorough, balanced, and dry or machine-like in tone. While acknowledging the existence and influence of the irrational and the emotional, I mostly try to exclude these from my own equations.
2. I use this platform to take part in public exchanges, as well as to encourage open dialogue in the hope that others too will share their thoughts. Regarding what I write here, its very purpose is to be public. The idea generally is that its relevance not be restricted to the single forum member whose post I may be directly responding to.
Private exchanges with individual members are counter to this objective. Hence, to engage, as you suggest, in private messaging with you wouldn't be of real interest to me. Note that this too is nothing personal, so please don't take it as a discourtesy. We all need to prioritise the limited time we have on earth. And when I desire a private conversation, my preference is to pick up the telephone or meet with people I already know.
----------------
3. Among the recent rules adopted by the forum, one of the better is the minimum-information suggestions in 'For sale' threads. The inclusion of basic details โ about what exactly is being offered, its condition, its location, etc. โ benefits everybody, saving both the seller and interested parties time and energy. It's a common sense approach to be applauded.
For me, the corollary to this forum improvement is that 'In search of' posts should also be clear and detailed. This includes being self-contained or standalone, i.e. incorporating as much information as possible that would be of assistance to the average seller. In other words, there shouldn't be an expectation that potential sellers be mind-readers. Nor should they need to be amateur detectives, forced to cross-reference with previous posts an interested buyer might have made in other threads. Again, just common sense.
4. When I read your original post, I found it left out a great deal of information which a seller might reasonably expect to see: whether you're in the market for a painting or a print; if a print, whether your budget stretches to signed or only unsigned; if a framed print is okay, or if you'll only consider unframed; whether a Pest Control COA is a prerequisite; in which country or city you're located; if you're offering cash or trades or a combination of both; etc. Pretty basic details, really.
Consequently, and from my perspective, your original post came across as seriously wanting and deficient, as if written by a somewhat clueless buyer. [Although my belabouring a point previously made is a little tiresome, in this instance it's worth emphasising the following to avoid further confusion: By "deficient", once again I'm referring to the content of what you wrote, not to you as an individual. And by "somewhat clueless buyer", this is not name-calling โ it describes my impression of the kind of person who may have drafted that 'In search of'.] I found it about as useful to a potential seller as "Laugh Now FS. PM offers." would be to a potential buyer.
You and others may object to this point. However, I suspect any disagreement would be based on what you know about yourself and your intentions, or what your existing contacts know about you through personal experience โ as opposed to what a complete stranger might feel after reading your one-line original post in this thread. And while people who are strangers to you could be disregarded, most likely they also make up the substantial bulk of owners and current or future sellers of Laugh Now.
----------------
5. Regular complaints here from sellers about time-wasters suggest the latter are surprisingly numerous on this forum, or perhaps few in number but incredibly active โ enough either way to make certain sellers both weary and wary. And so, bearing in mind my impression described in point 4, I set out a few thoughts on how to minimise the chances of genuine 'In search of' posts (whether your own or others similar to yours) being mistakenly dismissed as coming from time-wasters, flakes or fantasists.
Given what I inferred had been a long search by you, I felt your lack of success in sourcing a Laugh Now was possibly down to reasons besides the primary factor of availability shortage. My point was to highlight how a message-board request offering little information could be perceived by at least some potential sellers as lacking seriousness or commitment โ thereby leading to fewer purchasing opportunities being made available, and in turn doing little to further your acquisition goal.
It appeared to me like it would therefore be helpful to create a step-by-step list, even at the risk of stating the obvious.
If you see this as condescending, I can live with that. I'd be more concerned if my comments were deemed unfair โ bearing in mind the substance of your one-line original post on this thread, which my comments were in direct response to.
6. What has since emerged from your follow-ups (and also from the personal vouching by others like DrWhite and craigf) is quite a different picture to the previous impression made by your original post alone. Now, even if prompted by and disclosed out of irritation with my initial feedback, I believe the additional helpful information and clarifications you've provided will benefit your continued search far more than hinder it.
7. Regarding the disclosure of a ceiling price, I note your stance and would agree in part but also disagree. Let me give this issue some further thought and return to it a bit later.
Can't help feeling 'met' that you're attempting to have a go at me for some reason? I have had no dealings with you, so am not sure why, but for the record:
I am not a time-waster, I am a genuine buyer - I do not intend vanish off the map and I have the funds available - in fact, I have bought 7 Banksy prints in the last 4 months
I am not and individual who allows myself to publicly indulge in a perpetual pipe dream - simply looking to extend my collection - I find this comment very strange. I have bought some beautiful pieces on here, from other likewise collectors for fair prices, rather than your inflated dealers or auction houses. I would rather pay my hard earned cash to a similar lover of Art, rather than a greedy dealer or auction house who take a high percentage of the sale price!
Finally, I find your step by step guide on how I should write my wanted post in the least condescending! I am willing to see what is on offer, signed or unsigned, framed or unframed, although i'm not sure who actually requests to buy a framed print, surely thats a matter of taste! I'm not willing to add my ceiling price, as all prices from sellers will be for that or above! After all, I want to buy something at a fair price - and I do not believe that is the way to do business. I am not a fantasist, i just want to buy some art, several forum members can vouch for that !
Lastly, if you do have a problem with me, instead of chapter and verse on my wanted post, why don't you PM me?
In response, and given the partially crossed wires, I'll go for comprehensiveness over conciseness. Do excuse the essay-length of what follows (more chapter and verse, I'm afraid). Feel free of course to also ignore.
1. Taking your first and last points together, I have no issue with you. Like you stated, we've never had dealings together โ or even previously exchanged opinions, as far as I recall. I therefore don't know you from Adam.
After spotting your original post in this thread, I used it as a foil for illustration. My feedback, while tailored, is equally applicable to any similar 'In search of' by other forum members. The fact that you โ as opposed to someone else โ happened to be the author is irrelevant to me; I was targeting what you wrote, not you as an individual.
So nothing personal. More often than not my comments are, on the contrary, deliberately clinical and impersonal. People can take umbrage and get defensive if they so wish; that's up to them. But my usual aim when expressing views is to be thorough, balanced, and dry or machine-like in tone. While acknowledging the existence and influence of the irrational and the emotional, I mostly try to exclude these from my own equations.
2. I use this platform to take part in public exchanges, as well as to encourage open dialogue in the hope that others too will share their thoughts. Regarding what I write here, its very purpose is to be public. The idea generally is that its relevance not be restricted to the single forum member whose post I may be directly responding to.
Private exchanges with individual members are counter to this objective. Hence, to engage, as you suggest, in private messaging with you wouldn't be of real interest to me. Note that this too is nothing personal, so please don't take it as a discourtesy. We all need to prioritise the limited time we have on earth. And when I desire a private conversation, my preference is to pick up the telephone or meet with people I already know.
----------------
3. Among the recent rules adopted by the forum, one of the better is the minimum-information suggestions in 'For sale' threads. The inclusion of basic details โ about what exactly is being offered, its condition, its location, etc. โ benefits everybody, saving both the seller and interested parties time and energy. It's a common sense approach to be applauded.
For me, the corollary to this forum improvement is that 'In search of' posts should also be clear and detailed. This includes being self-contained or standalone, i.e. incorporating as much information as possible that would be of assistance to the average seller. In other words, there shouldn't be an expectation that potential sellers be mind-readers. Nor should they need to be amateur detectives, forced to cross-reference with previous posts an interested buyer might have made in other threads. Again, just common sense.
4. When I read your original post, I found it left out a great deal of information which a seller might reasonably expect to see: whether you're in the market for a painting or a print; if a print, whether your budget stretches to signed or only unsigned; if a framed print is okay, or if you'll only consider unframed; whether a Pest Control COA is a prerequisite; in which country or city you're located; if you're offering cash or trades or a combination of both; etc. Pretty basic details, really.
Consequently, and from my perspective, your original post came across as seriously wanting and deficient, as if written by a somewhat clueless buyer. [Although my belabouring a point previously made is a little tiresome, in this instance it's worth emphasising the following to avoid further confusion: By "deficient", once again I'm referring to the content of what you wrote, not to you as an individual. And by "somewhat clueless buyer", this is not name-calling โ it describes my impression of the kind of person who may have drafted that 'In search of'.] I found it about as useful to a potential seller as "Laugh Now FS. PM offers." would be to a potential buyer.
You and others may object to this point. However, I suspect any disagreement would be based on what you know about yourself and your intentions, or what your existing contacts know about you through personal experience โ as opposed to what a complete stranger might feel after reading your one-line original post in this thread. And while people who are strangers to you could be disregarded, most likely they also make up the substantial bulk of owners and current or future sellers of Laugh Now.
----------------
5. Regular complaints here from sellers about time-wasters suggest the latter are surprisingly numerous on this forum, or perhaps few in number but incredibly active โ enough either way to make certain sellers both weary and wary. And so, bearing in mind my impression described in point 4, I set out a few thoughts on how to minimise the chances of genuine 'In search of' posts (whether your own or others similar to yours) being mistakenly dismissed as coming from time-wasters, flakes or fantasists.
Given what I inferred had been a long search by you, I felt your lack of success in sourcing a Laugh Now was possibly down to reasons besides the primary factor of availability shortage. My point was to highlight how a message-board request offering little information could be perceived by at least some potential sellers as lacking seriousness or commitment โ thereby leading to fewer purchasing opportunities being made available, and in turn doing little to further your acquisition goal.
It appeared to me like it would therefore be helpful to create a step-by-step list, even at the risk of stating the obvious.
If you see this as condescending, I can live with that. I'd be more concerned if my comments were deemed unfair โ bearing in mind the substance of your one-line original post on this thread, which my comments were in direct response to.
6. What has since emerged from your follow-ups (and also from the personal vouching by others like DrWhite and craigf) is quite a different picture to the previous impression made by your original post alone. Now, even if prompted by and disclosed out of irritation with my initial feedback, I believe the additional helpful information and clarifications you've provided will benefit your continued search far more than hinder it.
7. Regarding the disclosure of a ceiling price, I note your stance and would agree in part but also disagree. Let me give this issue some further thought and return to it a bit later.
Banksy Laugh Now Print, by rossyty on Aug 18, 2015 22:40:21 GMT 1, I will Add that I am hoping to pay ยฃ6000, am Bergen based in Norway but can pick up, have good references from a few forum members.
Please pm me and we can discuss things:)
Regards
I will Add that I am hoping to pay ยฃ6000, am Bergen based in Norway but can pick up, have good references from a few forum members.
Banksy Laugh Now Print, by Fish in the Sea on Sept 12, 2015 12:07:23 GMT 1, Not sure what to do here since I must have sent Fountain art 3-4 pms with offers in the last few weeks but never got a reply
Not sure what to do here since I must have sent Fountain art 3-4 pms with offers in the last few weeks but never got a reply
Banksy Laugh Now Print, by Wilson on Sept 12, 2015 13:48:46 GMT 1, I always think getting a positive initial experience is important when buying online. If you can't get an answer to an email when trying to buy something what's going to happen if you have an after sales problem.
I always think getting a positive initial experience is important when buying online. If you can't get an answer to an email when trying to buy something what's going to happen if you have an after sales problem.
I always think getting a positive initial experience is important when buying online. If you can't get an answer to an email when trying to buy something what's going to happen if you have an after sales problem.
I always think getting a positive initial experience is important when buying online. If you can't get an answer to an email when trying to buy something what's going to happen if you have an after sales problem.
Banksy Laugh Now Print, by Deleted on Sept 12, 2015 19:52:29 GMT 1, Do they really have these prints or are they trying to fabricate a successful busy art consultancy so people might think they are the people to contact. Seems so many people contact them but have no response!
Do they really have these prints or are they trying to fabricate a successful busy art consultancy so people might think they are the people to contact. Seems so many people contact them but have no response!