Deleted
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January 1970
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by Deleted on Oct 4, 2018 23:28:11 GMT 1, More like Daily Mail Editor !
More like Daily Mail Editor !
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tab1
Full Member
🗨️ 8,519
👍🏻 3,679
September 2011
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by tab1 on Oct 5, 2018 0:48:16 GMT 1, It’s a hard situation , there are genuine homeless people that have had a tragic life changing situation occur , people that have mental health issues , suffer from depression , run aways from oppressive family then professional beggars that take advantage of people’s generosity to people in hard situations.highlighted recently in the media with Prince Harry’s wedding , these guys have 2 mobile phones latest branded clothes and have homes to go back to but unfortunately take advantage of the general public to feed their drug addictions This then effects peoples perceptions of homeless people ,generally this is picked up from the media ( dailymail reports a lot on this topic) tends to turn a few people to class all homeless people in the same camp. Personally when the winter months are here and frozen nights I go up to homeless people if I cross their paths , guys that are not begging and leave them £5 , you don’t see the professional beggars out when it’s cold . If this is a stunt it helps interaction as a lot of homeless people suffer from lonliness and a simple chat helps , but then it’s a minefield as a few suffer from mental health issue problems which with good intentions approaching them can back fire sometimes 🙄the average banksy buyer does not care about these situations even with woh project and the meaning behind it to educate people, it’s just buy,buy,buy ,profit to be made . I just Read the other thread with people excited over banksy postcards ? Dismaland ,people paying for cardboard fishfingers?
It’s a hard situation , there are genuine homeless people that have had a tragic life changing situation occur , people that have mental health issues , suffer from depression , run aways from oppressive family then professional beggars that take advantage of people’s generosity to people in hard situations.highlighted recently in the media with Prince Harry’s wedding , these guys have 2 mobile phones latest branded clothes and have homes to go back to but unfortunately take advantage of the general public to feed their drug addictions This then effects peoples perceptions of homeless people ,generally this is picked up from the media ( dailymail reports a lot on this topic) tends to turn a few people to class all homeless people in the same camp. Personally when the winter months are here and frozen nights I go up to homeless people if I cross their paths , guys that are not begging and leave them £5 , you don’t see the professional beggars out when it’s cold . If this is a stunt it helps interaction as a lot of homeless people suffer from lonliness and a simple chat helps , but then it’s a minefield as a few suffer from mental health issue problems which with good intentions approaching them can back fire sometimes 🙄the average banksy buyer does not care about these situations even with woh project and the meaning behind it to educate people, it’s just buy,buy,buy ,profit to be made . I just Read the other thread with people excited over banksy postcards ? Dismaland ,people paying for cardboard fishfingers?
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 6:06:31 GMT 1, I reckon this probably wins the prize for grossest thread on this forum. Sizing up homeless people to see if they might be hiding a Banksy? Bloody hell.
I reckon this probably wins the prize for grossest thread on this forum. Sizing up homeless people to see if they might be hiding a Banksy? Bloody hell.
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tab1
Full Member
🗨️ 8,519
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September 2011
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by tab1 on Oct 5, 2018 7:10:31 GMT 1, Its nice to see discussions and valid points - however, i always find it fascinating why people separate substance misusers from people with "mental health issues , suffer from depression , run aways from oppressive family". I know from working with "addicts" I would say 99% never thought "you know what, ill try drugs and be a bit of a c**tetc", they mostly have these illness's you talk of and have slipped through the net and self medicate. They are the same as everyone else buts**ts gone wrong in some way. We are all only a couple of steps away from being the same. A fella I did one of my degrees with is now sleeping on the street. An educated man, but most would step over him. Also, many charities now supply the homeless with mobile phones as there are apps to tell them which hostels have a bed, to stop people walking Burrough to burrough trying to find a place to stay.
Just a snapshot of general thoughts could have an umbrella of reasonings but would clog up this thread.
Agree that all above reasonings I mentioned can lead to drug misuse or be part of the cause. but can also have those issues without drugs causing them or leading to their use so separation is valid until you access each individual case instead of assuming or generalising just because they present one of the traits mentioned
It would be wrong to assume every person with mental health issues abuses drugs? Or people suffering from depression leads to substance misuse ?
.
Going a bit off track here 🙄 Understand your views will be a bit hardened as of your job role. What is this thread about again? 🙄😃
Its nice to see discussions and valid points - however, i always find it fascinating why people separate substance misusers from people with "mental health issues , suffer from depression , run aways from oppressive family". I know from working with "addicts" I would say 99% never thought "you know what, ill try drugs and be a bit of a c**tetc", they mostly have these illness's you talk of and have slipped through the net and self medicate. They are the same as everyone else buts**ts gone wrong in some way. We are all only a couple of steps away from being the same. A fella I did one of my degrees with is now sleeping on the street. An educated man, but most would step over him. Also, many charities now supply the homeless with mobile phones as there are apps to tell them which hostels have a bed, to stop people walking Burrough to burrough trying to find a place to stay. Just a snapshot of general thoughts could have an umbrella of reasonings but would clog up this thread. Agree that all above reasonings I mentioned can lead to drug misuse or be part of the cause. but can also have those issues without drugs causing them or leading to their use so separation is valid until you access each individual case instead of assuming or generalising just because they present one of the traits mentioned It would be wrong to assume every person with mental health issues abuses drugs? Or people suffering from depression leads to substance misuse ? . Going a bit off track here 🙄 Understand your views will be a bit hardened as of your job role. What is this thread about again? 🙄😃
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Chris JL
Junior Member
🗨️ 1,766
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March 2017
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by Chris JL on Oct 5, 2018 8:01:57 GMT 1, Random homeless people will be scattered around London today, you donate to them, they will in return give you something back.
They will give you a “thank you”. And that should be more than enough.
Random homeless people will be scattered around London today, you donate to them, they will in return give you something back. They will give you a “thank you”. And that should be more than enough.
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bkcbongo
New Member
🗨️ 53
👍🏻 16
October 2007
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by bkcbongo on Oct 5, 2018 9:17:39 GMT 1, [/quote]They will give you a “thank you”. And that should be more than enough. [/quote]
does that come with a COA?
[/quote]They will give you a “thank you”. And that should be more than enough. [/quote]
does that come with a COA?
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 9:24:28 GMT 1, I reckon this probably wins the prize for grossest thread on this forum. Sizing up homeless people to see if they might be hiding a Banksy? Bloody hell.
Would you mind lifting your sleeping bag and the rest of your worldly belongs as I'm looking for something.... nothing doing here, I'm off up to Old Street.
I reckon this probably wins the prize for grossest thread on this forum. Sizing up homeless people to see if they might be hiding a Banksy? Bloody hell. Would you mind lifting your sleeping bag and the rest of your worldly belongs as I'm looking for something.... nothing doing here, I'm off up to Old Street.
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 10:15:52 GMT 1, I reckon this probably wins the prize for grossest thread on this forum. Sizing up homeless people to see if they might be hiding a Banksy? Bloody hell. And whose fault is that? I think the answer to my question is Banksy. If he really cared about the homeless he would paint a one-off piece and then sell it at Sothebys for millions and give that money to a homeless charity. It's nothing more than a publicity stunt (if it even took place).
I reckon this probably wins the prize for grossest thread on this forum. Sizing up homeless people to see if they might be hiding a Banksy? Bloody hell. And whose fault is that? I think the answer to my question is Banksy. If he really cared about the homeless he would paint a one-off piece and then sell it at Sothebys for millions and give that money to a homeless charity. It's nothing more than a publicity stunt (if it even took place).
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Carl Cashman
Artist
Junior Member
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August 2017
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by Carl Cashman on Oct 5, 2018 10:26:45 GMT 1, I reckon this probably wins the prize for grossest thread on this forum. Sizing up homeless people to see if they might be hiding a Banksy? Bloody hell. And whose fault is that? I think the answer to my question is Banksy. If he really cared about the homeless he would paint a one-off piece and then sell it at Sothebys for millions and give that money to a homeless charity. It's nothing more than a publicity stunt (if it even took place). So it's banksys fault that A. Someone posted a thread with absolutely zero substance to it... and B. That there are still homeless people in the world. ?
I reckon this probably wins the prize for grossest thread on this forum. Sizing up homeless people to see if they might be hiding a Banksy? Bloody hell. And whose fault is that? I think the answer to my question is Banksy. If he really cared about the homeless he would paint a one-off piece and then sell it at Sothebys for millions and give that money to a homeless charity. It's nothing more than a publicity stunt (if it even took place). So it's banksys fault that A. Someone posted a thread with absolutely zero substance to it... and B. That there are still homeless people in the world. ?
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 10:30:19 GMT 1, I reckon this probably wins the prize for grossest thread on this forum. Sizing up homeless people to see if they might be hiding a Banksy? Bloody hell. And whose fault is that? I think the answer to my question is Banksy. If he really cared about the homeless he would paint a one-off piece and then sell it at Sothebys for millions and give that money to a homeless charity. It's nothing more than a publicity stunt (if it even took place). Clearly the first post in this thread was a wind-up, given there's zero evidence of it being true. The "event today" would have been yesterday and has there been a single mention of it beyond this forum? Bit odd to accuse Banksy of orchestrating a publicity stunt for something that didn't happen.
I reckon this probably wins the prize for grossest thread on this forum. Sizing up homeless people to see if they might be hiding a Banksy? Bloody hell. And whose fault is that? I think the answer to my question is Banksy. If he really cared about the homeless he would paint a one-off piece and then sell it at Sothebys for millions and give that money to a homeless charity. It's nothing more than a publicity stunt (if it even took place). Clearly the first post in this thread was a wind-up, given there's zero evidence of it being true. The "event today" would have been yesterday and has there been a single mention of it beyond this forum? Bit odd to accuse Banksy of orchestrating a publicity stunt for something that didn't happen.
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 10:34:39 GMT 1, I agree. Joe Valentino has gone decidedly quiet after his original post on this thread. Just another bullshitter on UAA.
I agree. Joe Valentino has gone decidedly quiet after his original post on this thread. Just another bullshitter on UAA.
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hnkpnk
Junior Member
🗨️ 1,344
👍🏻 1,423
July 2011
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by hnkpnk on Oct 5, 2018 10:41:32 GMT 1, I reckon this probably wins the prize for grossest thread on this forum. Sizing up homeless people to see if they might be hiding a Banksy? Bloody hell. And whose fault is that? I think the answer to my question is Banksy. If he really cared about the homeless he would paint a one-off piece and then sell it at Sothebys for millions and give that money to a homeless charity. It's nothing more than a publicity stunt (if it even took place). Well, it's already happened. Except for the Sothebys bit.
banksy-nazi-painting-sells-for-more-than-600000-at-charity-auction
"The painting was auctioned yesterday on behalf of the Housing Works charity, which helps to fund Aids and homelessness projects."
I reckon this probably wins the prize for grossest thread on this forum. Sizing up homeless people to see if they might be hiding a Banksy? Bloody hell. And whose fault is that? I think the answer to my question is Banksy. If he really cared about the homeless he would paint a one-off piece and then sell it at Sothebys for millions and give that money to a homeless charity. It's nothing more than a publicity stunt (if it even took place). Well, it's already happened. Except for the Sothebys bit. banksy-nazi-painting-sells-for-more-than-600000-at-charity-auction"The painting was auctioned yesterday on behalf of the Housing Works charity, which helps to fund Aids and homelessness projects."
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Masong
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,223
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March 2017
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by Masong on Oct 5, 2018 10:53:05 GMT 1, I agree. Joe Valentino has gone decidedly quiet after his original post on this thread. Just another bullshitter on UAA.
Well he’s done what he set out to do. Sames**t different day. What will the next username be I wonder.
I agree. Joe Valentino has gone decidedly quiet after his original post on this thread. Just another bullshitter on UAA. Well he’s done what he set out to do. Sames**t different day. What will the next username be I wonder.
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chopper
New Member
🗨️ 61
👍🏻 62
February 2014
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by chopper on Oct 5, 2018 11:45:34 GMT 1, Lots of speculation on this thread, but someone I know pretty well has just sent me this which they were handed by someone after making a donation to someone near London Bridge....
Lots of speculation on this thread, but someone I know pretty well has just sent me this which they were handed by someone after making a donation to someone near London Bridge....
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 11:51:22 GMT 1, That's interesting, although the wording "thank you for your donation" seems slightly odd.
That's interesting, although the wording "thank you for your donation" seems slightly odd.
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louic
New Member
🗨️ 185
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April 2017
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by louic on Oct 5, 2018 11:52:55 GMT 1, Lots of speculation on this thread, but someone I know pretty well has just sent me this which they were handed by someone after making a donation to someone near London Bridge....
Doubt it, nice try
Lots of speculation on this thread, but someone I know pretty well has just sent me this which they were handed by someone after making a donation to someone near London Bridge.... Doubt it, nice try
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Deleted
🗨️ 0
👍🏻
January 1970
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 11:58:46 GMT 1, Lots of speculation on this thread, but someone I know pretty well has just sent me this which they were handed by someone after making a donation to someone near London Bridge.... This is factually incorrect. The Conservatives have increased mental health funding not reduced it. It is also disingenuous to suggest that there is a direct causal link between mental heath funding and homelessness. Things are not that simple. There are, of course, some homeless people with mental health issues but the vast majority are on the streets due to various other factors.
Lots of speculation on this thread, but someone I know pretty well has just sent me this which they were handed by someone after making a donation to someone near London Bridge.... This is factually incorrect. The Conservatives have increased mental health funding not reduced it. It is also disingenuous to suggest that there is a direct causal link between mental heath funding and homelessness. Things are not that simple. There are, of course, some homeless people with mental health issues but the vast majority are on the streets due to various other factors.
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Carl Cashman
Artist
Junior Member
🗨️ 1,775
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August 2017
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by Carl Cashman on Oct 5, 2018 12:02:03 GMT 1,
Lots of speculation on this thread, but someone I know pretty well has just sent me this which they were handed by someone after making a donation to someone near London Bridge.... This is factually incorrect. The Conservatives have increased mental health funding not reduced it. It is also disingenuous to suggest that there is a direct causal link between mental heath funding and homelessness. Things are not that simple. There are, of course, some homeless people with mental health issues but the vast majority are on the streets due to various other factors.
No they have not, it's been reduced massively. As someone whose partner works for the probation service and has had mental health issues... I can tell you that comment is absolute bollox.
Lots of speculation on this thread, but someone I know pretty well has just sent me this which they were handed by someone after making a donation to someone near London Bridge.... This is factually incorrect. The Conservatives have increased mental health funding not reduced it. It is also disingenuous to suggest that there is a direct causal link between mental heath funding and homelessness. Things are not that simple. There are, of course, some homeless people with mental health issues but the vast majority are on the streets due to various other factors. No they have not, it's been reduced massively. As someone whose partner works for the probation service and has had mental health issues... I can tell you that comment is absolute bollox.
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by Monkey Say Monkey Do on Oct 5, 2018 12:02:11 GMT 1, Lots of speculation on this thread, but someone I know pretty well has just sent me this which they were handed by someone after making a donation to someone near London Bridge.... i have seen that signature numerous times on a certain auction site , selling fakes Banksy`s
Lots of speculation on this thread, but someone I know pretty well has just sent me this which they were handed by someone after making a donation to someone near London Bridge.... i have seen that signature numerous times on a certain auction site , selling fakes Banksy`s
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by Bill Hicks on Oct 5, 2018 12:13:56 GMT 1, Lots of speculation on this thread, but someone I know pretty well has just sent me this which they were handed by someone after making a donation to someone near London Bridge.... This is factually incorrect. The Conservatives have increased mental health funding not reduced it. It is also disingenuous to suggest that there is a direct causal link between mental heath funding and homelessness. Things are not that simple. There are, of course, some homeless people with mental health issues but the vast majority are on the streets due to various other factors. Research by the Royal College of Psychiatrists (RCP) found that the income of mental health trusts across the UK had fallen since 2011, after taking account of inflation. In England, 62% of mental health trusts reported a lower income at the end of 2016-17 than they had in 2011-12. Only one trust saw their funding rise in all five financial years, according to official figures. The total amount of income that mental health trusts received in 2016-17 was £11.829bn - £105m less than in 2011-12 at today’s prices, the RCP reports. Mental health trusts in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have also seen their budgets cut in real terms. “It is totally unacceptable that when more and more people are coming forward with mental health problems, trusts are receiving less investment than they did, in some cases, seven years ago,” said RCP president Professor Wendy Burn. The research carried out in 2015 by BBC News and the online journal Community Care.The study found that mental health trusts in England saw their budgets fall by more than 8% in real terms between 2010-11 and 2014-15 – a reduction worth almost £600m. Although the majority of mental health trusts received a funding boost last year, budgets have been cut by £105m in real terms since the Conservatives came to power.
Lots of speculation on this thread, but someone I know pretty well has just sent me this which they were handed by someone after making a donation to someone near London Bridge.... This is factually incorrect. The Conservatives have increased mental health funding not reduced it. It is also disingenuous to suggest that there is a direct causal link between mental heath funding and homelessness. Things are not that simple. There are, of course, some homeless people with mental health issues but the vast majority are on the streets due to various other factors. Research by the Royal College of Psychiatrists (RCP) found that the income of mental health trusts across the UK had fallen since 2011, after taking account of inflation. In England, 62% of mental health trusts reported a lower income at the end of 2016-17 than they had in 2011-12. Only one trust saw their funding rise in all five financial years, according to official figures. The total amount of income that mental health trusts received in 2016-17 was £11.829bn - £105m less than in 2011-12 at today’s prices, the RCP reports. Mental health trusts in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have also seen their budgets cut in real terms. “It is totally unacceptable that when more and more people are coming forward with mental health problems, trusts are receiving less investment than they did, in some cases, seven years ago,” said RCP president Professor Wendy Burn. The research carried out in 2015 by BBC News and the online journal Community Care.The study found that mental health trusts in England saw their budgets fall by more than 8% in real terms between 2010-11 and 2014-15 – a reduction worth almost £600m. Although the majority of mental health trusts received a funding boost last year, budgets have been cut by £105m in real terms since the Conservatives came to power.
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Deleted
🗨️ 0
👍🏻
January 1970
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 12:28:22 GMT 1, No they have not, it's been reduced massively. As someone whose partner works for the probation service and has had mental health issues... I can tell you that comment is absolute bollox. Why do you assume that a probation officer (with or without mental health issues) would know how many homeless people have mental health problems, let alone whether there is a causal link between the two? Who's talking bollox now?
No they have not, it's been reduced massively. As someone whose partner works for the probation service and has had mental health issues... I can tell you that comment is absolute bollox. Why do you assume that a probation officer (with or without mental health issues) would know how many homeless people have mental health problems, let alone whether there is a causal link between the two? Who's talking bollox now?
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Carl Cashman
Artist
Junior Member
🗨️ 1,775
👍🏻 3,147
August 2017
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by Carl Cashman on Oct 5, 2018 13:09:51 GMT 1,
No they have not, it's been reduced massively. As someone whose partner works for the probation service and has had mental health issues... I can tell you that comment is absolute bollox. Why do you assume that a probation officer (with or without mental health issues) would know how many homeless people have mental health problems, let alone whether there is a causal link between the two? Who's talking bollox now?
You don't have a clue what a probation officer does do you?
I don't assume anything, I just listen to her after work every single day.... not that the daily mail will give you facts either
No they have not, it's been reduced massively. As someone whose partner works for the probation service and has had mental health issues... I can tell you that comment is absolute bollox. Why do you assume that a probation officer (with or without mental health issues) would know how many homeless people have mental health problems, let alone whether there is a causal link between the two? Who's talking bollox now? You don't have a clue what a probation officer does do you? I don't assume anything, I just listen to her after work every single day.... not that the daily mail will give you facts either
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by Bill Hicks on Oct 5, 2018 13:35:24 GMT 1, The total amount of income that mental health trusts received in 2016 - 2017
Was £11.829bn - £105m less than in 2011-12 at today’s prices, the RCP reports.
The government recently announced that it “plans“ to increase spending on the NHS in England over the next five years.
The total amount of income that mental health trusts received in 2016 - 2017 Was £11.829bn - £105m less than in 2011-12 at today’s prices, the RCP reports.
The government recently announced that it “plans“ to increase spending on the NHS in England over the next five years.
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by Michael James Art on Oct 5, 2018 14:06:17 GMT 1, Lots of speculation on this thread, but someone I know pretty well has just sent me this which they were handed by someone after making a donation to someone near London Bridge.... This is nuts... but if it was genuine wouldn’t the press have picked it up by now? Have to say, if this turns out to be real a lot of people on this forum will be slightly embarrassed and very envious. If it is fake than a few people here will get a good laugh. Sounds like a win/win to me. The power of one man’s art!
Thanks!
YANK
Lots of speculation on this thread, but someone I know pretty well has just sent me this which they were handed by someone after making a donation to someone near London Bridge.... This is nuts... but if it was genuine wouldn’t the press have picked it up by now? Have to say, if this turns out to be real a lot of people on this forum will be slightly embarrassed and very envious. If it is fake than a few people here will get a good laugh. Sounds like a win/win to me. The power of one man’s art! Thanks! YANK
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Deleted
🗨️ 0
👍🏻
January 1970
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by Deleted on Oct 5, 2018 14:15:16 GMT 1, I wont believe it until they start appearing on e-bay.
I wont believe it until they start appearing on e-bay.
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diarmid
New Member
🗨️ 831
👍🏻 215
October 2017
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by diarmid on Oct 5, 2018 15:32:41 GMT 1, this is someone trying to be banksy.
this is someone trying to be banksy.
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cmc
New Member
🗨️ 380
👍🏻 279
July 2013
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by cmc on Oct 5, 2018 15:42:57 GMT 1, Banksy or not it's very good.
Banksy or not it's very good.
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caruso
Junior Member
🗨️ 1,181
👍🏻 818
August 2017
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by caruso on Oct 5, 2018 18:13:43 GMT 1, You're incredibly in the know for a guy who's got 13 posts under his belt. Stop wasting people's time man. Giving should never be conditional. Joe's been on here for a loooooong time (longer than me). I've seen some of the Banksys he's owned and IMHO he is more likely to be in the know than most.
He may just have opened a new account for whatever reason. However, someone could also be posing as him because that's the world we now live in...
Anything you'd like to add to this? I mean, I haven't heard the big news, so just wondering...
You're incredibly in the know for a guy who's got 13 posts under his belt. Stop wasting people's time man. Giving should never be conditional. Joe's been on here for a loooooong time (longer than me). I've seen some of the Banksys he's owned and IMHO he is more likely to be in the know than most.
He may just have opened a new account for whatever reason. However, someone could also be posing as him because that's the world we now live in...
Anything you'd like to add to this? I mean, I haven't heard the big news, so just wondering...
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mojo
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,190
👍🏻 3,721
May 2014
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Banksy Show/Event Today, by mojo on Oct 5, 2018 19:02:08 GMT 1, Lots of speculation on this thread, but someone I know pretty well has just sent me this which they were handed by someone after making a donation to someone near London Bridge.... This is factually incorrect. The Conservatives have increased mental health funding not reduced it. It is also disingenuous to suggest that there is a direct causal link between mental heath funding and homelessness. Things are not that simple. There are, of course, some homeless people with mental health issues but the vast majority are on the streets due to various other factors. A Tory ....I'd of never of guessed
Lots of speculation on this thread, but someone I know pretty well has just sent me this which they were handed by someone after making a donation to someone near London Bridge.... This is factually incorrect. The Conservatives have increased mental health funding not reduced it. It is also disingenuous to suggest that there is a direct causal link between mental heath funding and homelessness. Things are not that simple. There are, of course, some homeless people with mental health issues but the vast majority are on the streets due to various other factors. A Tory ....I'd of never of guessed
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