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pow down, by rob123rob on Sept 21, 2007 5:47:28 GMT 1, like hundreds of times in the past, pow is down right now...probably just some site maintenance...but wouldn't it be great if it popped back up with a little new banksy for us?
wishful thinking, I know
like hundreds of times in the past, pow is down right now...probably just some site maintenance...but wouldn't it be great if it popped back up with a little new banksy for us?
wishful thinking, I know
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bond
New Member
Posts โข 958
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January 2007
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pow down, by bond on Sept 21, 2007 7:44:32 GMT 1, they are probably just working out what A.M prints if any they have left.
With 1,000 prints to be sent out i seriously doubt a Banksy will emerge for a while .
Hope i'm wrong though !!
they are probably just working out what A.M prints if any they have left.
With 1,000 prints to be sent out i seriously doubt a Banksy will emerge for a while .
Hope i'm wrong though !!
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slacker
New Member
Posts โข 787
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June 2007
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pow down, by slacker on Sept 21, 2007 7:53:27 GMT 1, they are probably just working out what A.M prints if any they have left. With 1,000 prints to be sent out i seriously doubt a Banksy will emerge for a while . Hope i'm wrong though !!
yep - a few other prints went out as well. there were more than 50 faile bunny prints available at the start of the week and they seemed to be gone last night. i ordered one about 2 weeks ago when there were about 100 left and it isn't here yet.
i wonder if they've exceeded their bandwidth with the amount of f5ing they got hit with yesterday. that would be quite funny. ;D
edit: got an e-mail receipt for one of my micallef orders at 4.59 this morning so i suspect that there may be some micallefs when it comes back up. if you want one then it might be worth keeping an eye out for the web site coming back up.
they are probably just working out what A.M prints if any they have left. With 1,000 prints to be sent out i seriously doubt a Banksy will emerge for a while . Hope i'm wrong though !! yep - a few other prints went out as well. there were more than 50 faile bunny prints available at the start of the week and they seemed to be gone last night. i ordered one about 2 weeks ago when there were about 100 left and it isn't here yet. i wonder if they've exceeded their bandwidth with the amount of f5ing they got hit with yesterday. that would be quite funny. ;D edit: got an e-mail receipt for one of my micallef orders at 4.59 this morning so i suspect that there may be some micallefs when it comes back up. if you want one then it might be worth keeping an eye out for the web site coming back up. |
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pow down, by howlinhooker on Sept 21, 2007 8:11:01 GMT 1, micallef back on if you want them!!!!!!!!
micallef back on if you want them!!!!!!!!
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pow down, by Jonny Breaks on Sept 21, 2007 8:24:18 GMT 1, Balls....been checking since early doors but just got the front page of POW and no access to any artists....seem to have missed out again
Balls....been checking since early doors but just got the front page of POW and no access to any artists....seem to have missed out again
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pow down, by howlinhooker on Sept 21, 2007 8:26:31 GMT 1, seems to be sold out again?
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pow down, by Jonny Breaks on Sept 21, 2007 8:29:40 GMT 1, indeed it does.....was waiting for the site to come back up and when it did nothing had changed, still sold out. crappity crap crap.
indeed it does.....was waiting for the site to come back up and when it did nothing had changed, still sold out. crappity crap crap.
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pow down, by howlinhooker on Sept 21, 2007 8:31:06 GMT 1, shame i could have got one, but i got 1 yesterday at 9 ish so keep trying , there was 14 when the site went back up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
shame i could have got one, but i got 1 yesterday at 9 ish so keep trying , there was 14 when the site went back up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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pow down, by Jonny Breaks on Sept 21, 2007 8:32:37 GMT 1, 14?!?!.....must have gone in seconds...just hanging around on the off chance of a few more....
14?!?!.....must have gone in seconds...just hanging around on the off chance of a few more....
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pow down, by howlinhooker on Sept 21, 2007 8:33:27 GMT 1, yes 14 , KEEP TRYING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yes 14 , KEEP TRYING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Fearkiller
New Member
Posts โข 315
Likes โข 0
September 2006
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pow down, by Fearkiller on Sept 21, 2007 8:33:28 GMT 1, jonny:
check your pms!
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talisman
New Member
Posts โข 44
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September 2007
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pow down, by talisman on Sept 21, 2007 8:35:17 GMT 1, YES!!! Can't believe it, i've been waiting for an AM, his prints are fantastic. Can't believe i got one.
Got up thismorning and there it was...1 print available.
YES!!! Can't believe it, i've been waiting for an AM, his prints are fantastic. Can't believe i got one.
Got up thismorning and there it was...1 print available.
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Deleted
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January 1970
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pow down, by Deleted on Sept 21, 2007 17:25:57 GMT 1, congrats everyone. glad to hear that almost everyone on the forum got one!
congrats everyone. glad to hear that almost everyone on the forum got one!
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stuey09
New Member
Posts โข 49
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August 2008
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pow down, by stuey09 on Sept 21, 2007 18:07:28 GMT 1, my bank balance emerged unscathed from this frantic week of Micallef madness!! in other words couldnt get to london to join in the farce cos of working for a living.. wasnt online on wednesday daytime so missed out on pow - cos of work!! missed out on everything so made up for it by just now buying a nice canvas from Rich t on letthemhang ( now you see them/ now they are gone !! ) sold out in next to no time - so now feeling much better...  Ps major minus repect for Lazinc.. they couldnt really give a s**tinc. they are loaded , reckon i worked out something like one million nine hundred thousand brought in from prints alone !!! i just hope Anthony gets the lions share of that little lot
Your post got me thinking Matt. I got a print each for two trusted members of this forum who were physically unable to make it down for the sale. I also got PK for myself, which left another piece of work available from my quota. Given that others may have been in this position it makes me think that with a bit of co-ordination we could ensure that a lot more prints are secured for trusted forum members and less for the baggers by pre-arranging pick ups for those that can't go. It won't solve everything, but will help a few more genuine fans get the art that they genuinely desire.
my bank balance emerged unscathed from this frantic week of Micallef madness!! in other words couldnt get to london to join in the farce cos of working for a living.. wasnt online on wednesday daytime so missed out on pow - cos of work!! missed out on everything so made up for it by just now buying a nice canvas from Rich t on letthemhang ( now you see them/ now they are gone !! ) sold out in next to no time - so now feeling much better... Ps major minus repect for Lazinc.. they couldnt really give a s**tinc. they are loaded , reckon i worked out something like one million nine hundred thousand brought in from prints alone !!! i just hope Anthony gets the lions share of that little lot Your post got me thinking Matt. I got a print each for two trusted members of this forum who were physically unable to make it down for the sale. I also got PK for myself, which left another piece of work available from my quota. Given that others may have been in this position it makes me think that with a bit of co-ordination we could ensure that a lot more prints are secured for trusted forum members and less for the baggers by pre-arranging pick ups for those that can't go. It won't solve everything, but will help a few more genuine fans get the art that they genuinely desire. |
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pow down, by orangematt on Sept 21, 2007 18:17:38 GMT 1, Yeah i totally agree with you there stuey.. it could be arranged between trusted forum members to sort this kind of thing out !! i suspect though that unless they aint willing to learn from their mistakes there will be changes made next time !! i dont think !!
My biggest bug bear is that so many releases happen when us ordinary working folk ( not those of us on or near computers all day !! - i myself do building repairs and maintainance ) are not able to get online - i would like to see more weekend and evening releases .. looking forward to seeing how the next Faile release goes , i reckon they are on the case for sorting it out so that there is a level playing field for all fans and collectors of their work !..
And as for baggers / flippers.. i say dont buy off the ebay profiteers - no matter how badly you want the print-- if it turns up within the day like countless Micallefs then leave them alone- they will have to drop their prices as they dont want the art just their profit !! its different for long term price increases like early Banksy pieces obviously gone up in value .. but PLEASE dont feed the sharks who sell within the hour./day/week/month
Yeah i totally agree with you there stuey.. it could be arranged between trusted forum members to sort this kind of thing out !! i suspect though that unless they aint willing to learn from their mistakes there will be changes made next time !! i dont think !!
My biggest bug bear is that so many releases happen when us ordinary working folk ( not those of us on or near computers all day !! - i myself do building repairs and maintainance ) are not able to get online - i would like to see more weekend and evening releases .. looking forward to seeing how the next Faile release goes , i reckon they are on the case for sorting it out so that there is a level playing field for all fans and collectors of their work !..
And as for baggers / flippers.. i say dont buy off the ebay profiteers - no matter how badly you want the print-- if it turns up within the day like countless Micallefs then leave them alone- they will have to drop their prices as they dont want the art just their profit !! its different for long term price increases like early Banksy pieces obviously gone up in value .. but PLEASE dont feed the sharks who sell within the hour./day/week/month
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7eny
New Member
Posts โข 107
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November 2006
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pow down, by 7eny on Sept 21, 2007 20:06:48 GMT 1, looks like it's down again
looks like it's down again
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slacker
New Member
Posts โข 787
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June 2007
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pow down, by slacker on Sept 21, 2007 20:07:32 GMT 1, Yeah i totally agree with you there stuey.. it could be arranged between trusted forum members to sort this kind of thing out !! i suspect though that unless they aint willing to learn from their mistakes there will be changes made next time !! i dont think !! My biggest bug bear is that so many releases happen when us ordinary working folk ( not those of us on or near computers all day !! - i myself do building repairs and maintainance ) are not able to get online - i would like to see more weekend and evening releases .. looking forward to seeing how the next Faile release goes , i reckon they are on the case for sorting it out so that there is a level playing field for all fans and collectors of their work !.. And as for baggers / flippers.. i say dont buy off the ebay profiteers - no matter how badly you want the print-- if it turns up within the day like countless Micallefs then leave them alone- they will have to drop their prices as they dont want the art just their profit !! its different for long term price increases like early Banksy pieces obviously gone up in value .. but PLEASE dont feed the sharks who sell within the hour./day/week/month
great post mate. couldn't agree more.
oh and pow is down again... more prints?
Yeah i totally agree with you there stuey.. it could be arranged between trusted forum members to sort this kind of thing out !! i suspect though that unless they aint willing to learn from their mistakes there will be changes made next time !! i dont think !! My biggest bug bear is that so many releases happen when us ordinary working folk ( not those of us on or near computers all day !! - i myself do building repairs and maintainance ) are not able to get online - i would like to see more weekend and evening releases .. looking forward to seeing how the next Faile release goes , i reckon they are on the case for sorting it out so that there is a level playing field for all fans and collectors of their work !.. And as for baggers / flippers.. i say dont buy off the ebay profiteers - no matter how badly you want the print-- if it turns up within the day like countless Micallefs then leave them alone- they will have to drop their prices as they dont want the art just their profit !! its different for long term price increases like early Banksy pieces obviously gone up in value .. but PLEASE dont feed the sharks who sell within the hour./day/week/month great post mate. couldn't agree more. oh and pow is down again... more prints? |
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pow down, by jboy on Sept 21, 2007 20:38:05 GMT 1, they are probably just working out what A.M prints if any they have left. With 1,000 prints to be sent out i seriously doubt a Banksy will emerge for a while . Hope i'm wrong though !! yep - a few other prints went out as well. there were more than 50 faile bunny prints available at the start of the week and they seemed to be gone last night. i ordered one about 2 weeks ago when there were about 100 left and it isn't here yet. i wonder if they've exceeded their bandwidth with the amount of f5ing they got hit with yesterday. that would be quite funny. ;D edit: got an e-mail receipt for one of my micallef orders at 4.59 this morning so i suspect that there may be some micallefs when it comes back up. if you want one then it might be worth keeping an eye out for the web site coming back up.
I waited 10 days then sent them an email. It arrived the next day.
they are probably just working out what A.M prints if any they have left. With 1,000 prints to be sent out i seriously doubt a Banksy will emerge for a while . Hope i'm wrong though !! yep - a few other prints went out as well. there were more than 50 faile bunny prints available at the start of the week and they seemed to be gone last night. i ordered one about 2 weeks ago when there were about 100 left and it isn't here yet. i wonder if they've exceeded their bandwidth with the amount of f5ing they got hit with yesterday. that would be quite funny. ;D edit: got an e-mail receipt for one of my micallef orders at 4.59 this morning so i suspect that there may be some micallefs when it comes back up. if you want one then it might be worth keeping an eye out for the web site coming back up. I waited 10 days then sent them an email. It arrived the next day. |
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pow down, by atkuefler on Sept 21, 2007 21:28:29 GMT 1, nothing new
nothing new
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CHAMB
Artist
New Member
Posts โข 190
Likes โข 3
December 2006
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pow down, by CHAMB on Sept 21, 2007 21:33:35 GMT 1, back up
back up
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talisman
New Member
Posts โข 44
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September 2007
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pow down, by talisman on Sept 21, 2007 23:22:13 GMT 1, Yeah i totally agree with you there stuey.. it could be arranged between trusted forum members
It's funny because, you say 'trusted forum members'. What does that mean exactly? I'm sure there are art lovers out there who may not be forum members who love art just as much but choose not to become an active member of this forum. Therefore, how can you say you will get together and buy up the art for eachother just because you say you are a 'trusted forum member'? Sorry it's just my opinion. I am an art lover and an active buyer of fine art, however, it's only recently that i choose to speak on this forum. Sorry but i don't agree with your comments. I was lucky enough to buy an AM print this time around but i have failed in the past. But ofcourse thats ok because i'm not a 'trusted forum member' because i have only posted twice! i Agree that there are some people who flip what they buy immediately, but there is no getting away from that. At the end of the day people by art to sell for a profit. Good luck to them i say....as long as ultimately the prints go to someone who will love and enjoy them!
Sorry if i have upset anybody!
Yeah i totally agree with you there stuey.. it could be arranged between trusted forum members It's funny because, you say 'trusted forum members'. What does that mean exactly? I'm sure there are art lovers out there who may not be forum members who love art just as much but choose not to become an active member of this forum. Therefore, how can you say you will get together and buy up the art for eachother just because you say you are a 'trusted forum member'? Sorry it's just my opinion. I am an art lover and an active buyer of fine art, however, it's only recently that i choose to speak on this forum. Sorry but i don't agree with your comments. I was lucky enough to buy an AM print this time around but i have failed in the past. But ofcourse thats ok because i'm not a 'trusted forum member' because i have only posted twice! i Agree that there are some people who flip what they buy immediately, but there is no getting away from that. At the end of the day people by art to sell for a profit. Good luck to them i say....as long as ultimately the prints go to someone who will love and enjoy them! Sorry if i have upset anybody! |
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pow down, by dave313perry on Sept 21, 2007 23:29:45 GMT 1, Its like any scenario in the world - you look after yourself first then the people around you that you give a toss about - if there are people on here who show a continued passion and love for art that i can help them get - then i will do all i can to help them.
Its a good thing IMO that its difficult for flippers to obtain prints because of people like stuey helping people out who will slap the print on their wall! this way it bypasses the middleman flipper
Its like any scenario in the world - you look after yourself first then the people around you that you give a toss about - if there are people on here who show a continued passion and love for art that i can help them get - then i will do all i can to help them.
Its a good thing IMO that its difficult for flippers to obtain prints because of people like stuey helping people out who will slap the print on their wall! this way it bypasses the middleman flipper
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spirit
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,956
Likes โข 516
August 2007
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pow down, by spirit on Sept 21, 2007 23:34:07 GMT 1, At the end of the day people by art to sell for a profit.
Only flippers buy art to sell for profit. People buy art because they like it.
At the end of the day people by art to sell for a profit. Only flippers buy art to sell for profit. People buy art because they like it. |
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pow down, by dave313perry on Sept 21, 2007 23:43:05 GMT 1, By 'trusted Forum members' - its not some exclusive boys club
Its just a group of people who have put a face to eachother at shows - or just have a mutual 'virtual' respect either by their input into the forum, by helping other people or just sharing their collection - ......also what goes around comes around
Iv been helped on here by a couple of members bigtime - and have tried my very best to help others out - one good deed deserves another and all that......
By 'trusted Forum members' - its not some exclusive boys club
Its just a group of people who have put a face to eachother at shows - or just have a mutual 'virtual' respect either by their input into the forum, by helping other people or just sharing their collection - ......also what goes around comes around
Iv been helped on here by a couple of members bigtime - and have tried my very best to help others out - one good deed deserves another and all that......
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talisman
New Member
Posts โข 44
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September 2007
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pow down, by talisman on Sept 21, 2007 23:59:38 GMT 1, By 'trusted Forum members' - its not some exclusive boys club Its just a group of people who have put a face to eachother at shows - or just have a mutual 'virtual' respect either by their input into the forum, by helping other people or just sharing their collection - ......also what goes around comes around Iv been helped on here by a couple of members bigtime - and have tried my very best to help others out - one good deed deserves another and all that......
Ok. Fair enough. I was just trying to make a point that you can't discount those art lovers who choose not to show themselves on this forum. I mean no disrespect to you. I am an art lover just like you and i don't like flippers but as i said it happens. It just shows that the art lovers who buy off ebay really, really have a passion for fine art and if they choose to buy off ebay then that's up to them.
Flippers are a fact of this market and we can't get away from it. As i said as long as it ends up with people who love it then i'm happy...and i'm sure they are too.
By 'trusted Forum members' - its not some exclusive boys club Its just a group of people who have put a face to eachother at shows - or just have a mutual 'virtual' respect either by their input into the forum, by helping other people or just sharing their collection - ......also what goes around comes around Iv been helped on here by a couple of members bigtime - and have tried my very best to help others out - one good deed deserves another and all that...... Ok. Fair enough. I was just trying to make a point that you can't discount those art lovers who choose not to show themselves on this forum. I mean no disrespect to you. I am an art lover just like you and i don't like flippers but as i said it happens. It just shows that the art lovers who buy off ebay really, really have a passion for fine art and if they choose to buy off ebay then that's up to them. Flippers are a fact of this market and we can't get away from it. As i said as long as it ends up with people who love it then i'm happy...and i'm sure they are too. |
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pow down, by finsburyparkranger on Sept 22, 2007 0:32:24 GMT 1, At the end of the day people by art to sell for a profit. Only flippers buy art to sell for profit. People buy art because they like it.
You know what, I really don't care if someone is buying art to flip it or to put it on their wall for ever and ever. Not really. If the art goes on a private wall for ever, that doesn't necessarily make me want to shake the buyers hand. Either the art is great and therefore its sad for it to be lost to the private realm or its not great and some muggins has just spent ยฃยฃยฃยฃ's on a poor picture when he/she could have built a small school in africa.
I do care whether the people around me are good for me or not and do care if they are good to others or not and that certainly rules out s**t like queue jumping.
However when you're talking about art that is designed to be affordable (which these days means is worth a lot more than it could sell for) to try to spread the wealth a bit for once, then yes, I get pissed off with people who try to take more than their share. But when it comes to thousands of pounds, I don't really see it like there are good guys or bad guys. Some people can afford a s**t loads of art, others can only afford to buy one thing, look at it for a month and hope to sell it to pay off the overdraft and many differing increments inbetween.
The question shouldn't be is someone a flipper? The question should be - What the f**k have i done to try to be a part of the solution to this chronically f**ked up world around me and why the hell should i feel good about myself just because i can afford to hoard thousands of pounds of art?
Hey and i'm not having a dig at anyone here, just talking out loud really.
At the end of the day people by art to sell for a profit. Only flippers buy art to sell for profit. People buy art because they like it. You know what, I really don't care if someone is buying art to flip it or to put it on their wall for ever and ever. Not really. If the art goes on a private wall for ever, that doesn't necessarily make me want to shake the buyers hand. Either the art is great and therefore its sad for it to be lost to the private realm or its not great and some muggins has just spent ยฃยฃยฃยฃ's on a poor picture when he/she could have built a small school in africa. I do care whether the people around me are good for me or not and do care if they are good to others or not and that certainly rules out s**t like queue jumping. However when you're talking about art that is designed to be affordable (which these days means is worth a lot more than it could sell for) to try to spread the wealth a bit for once, then yes, I get pissed off with people who try to take more than their share. But when it comes to thousands of pounds, I don't really see it like there are good guys or bad guys. Some people can afford a s**t loads of art, others can only afford to buy one thing, look at it for a month and hope to sell it to pay off the overdraft and many differing increments inbetween. The question shouldn't be is someone a flipper? The question should be - What the f**k have i done to try to be a part of the solution to this chronically f**ked up world around me and why the hell should i feel good about myself just because i can afford to hoard thousands of pounds of art? Hey and i'm not having a dig at anyone here, just talking out loud really. |
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talisman
New Member
Posts โข 44
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September 2007
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pow down, by talisman on Sept 22, 2007 1:04:16 GMT 1, Only flippers buy art to sell for profit. People buy art because they like it. You know what, I really don't care if someone is buying art to flip it or to put it on there wall for ever and ever. Not really. If the art goes on a private wall for ever, that doesn't necessarily make me want to shake the buyers hand. Either the art is great and therefore its sad for it to be lost to the private realm or its not great and some muggins has just spent ยฃยฃยฃยฃ's on a poor picture when he/she could have built a small school in africa. I do care whether the people around me are good for me or not and do care if they are good to others or not and that certainly rules out s**t like queue jumping. However when you're talking about art that is designed to be affordable (which these days means is worth a lot more than it could sell for) to try to spread the wealth a bit for once, then yes, I get pissed off with people who try to take more than their share. But when it comes to thousands of pounds I don't really see it like there are good guys or bad guys. Some people can afford a s**t loads of art, others can only afford to buy one thing, look at it for a month and hope to sell it to pay off the overdraft and many differing increments inbetween. The question shouldn't be is someone a flipper? The question should be - What the f**k have i done to try to be a part of the solution to this chronically f**ked up world around me and why the hell should i feel good about myself just because i can afford to hoard thousands of pounds of art. Hey and i'm not having a dig at anyone here, just talking out loud really.
Well in my friend, inspiring words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Only flippers buy art to sell for profit. People buy art because they like it. You know what, I really don't care if someone is buying art to flip it or to put it on there wall for ever and ever. Not really. If the art goes on a private wall for ever, that doesn't necessarily make me want to shake the buyers hand. Either the art is great and therefore its sad for it to be lost to the private realm or its not great and some muggins has just spent ยฃยฃยฃยฃ's on a poor picture when he/she could have built a small school in africa. I do care whether the people around me are good for me or not and do care if they are good to others or not and that certainly rules out s**t like queue jumping. However when you're talking about art that is designed to be affordable (which these days means is worth a lot more than it could sell for) to try to spread the wealth a bit for once, then yes, I get pissed off with people who try to take more than their share. But when it comes to thousands of pounds I don't really see it like there are good guys or bad guys. Some people can afford a s**t loads of art, others can only afford to buy one thing, look at it for a month and hope to sell it to pay off the overdraft and many differing increments inbetween. The question shouldn't be is someone a flipper? The question should be - What the f**k have i done to try to be a part of the solution to this chronically f**ked up world around me and why the hell should i feel good about myself just because i can afford to hoard thousands of pounds of art. Hey and i'm not having a dig at anyone here, just talking out loud really. Well in my friend, inspiring words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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pezlow
Junior Member
Posts โข 5,388
Likes โข 254
January 2007
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pow down, by pezlow on Sept 22, 2007 20:28:07 GMT 1, Very true FPR. I did a mental tot up of the value of the art in my collection and thought, what the f**k am I doing. Firstly it is really scary that I have things of such value and secondly there are so many other much more worthwhile things I could spend it on. Its a bit of a screwed up world that we are all spending so much money on art when all the s**te goes on in the world around us.
Very true FPR. I did a mental tot up of the value of the art in my collection and thought, what the f**k am I doing. Firstly it is really scary that I have things of such value and secondly there are so many other much more worthwhile things I could spend it on. Its a bit of a screwed up world that we are all spending so much money on art when all the s**te goes on in the world around us.
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stuey09
New Member
Posts โข 49
Likes โข 1
August 2008
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pow down, by stuey09 on Sept 22, 2007 20:42:34 GMT 1, Very true FPR. I did a mental tot up of the value of the art in my collection and thought, what the f**k am I doing. Firstly it is really scary that I have things of such value and secondly there are so many other much more worthwhile things I could spend it on. Its a bit of a screwed up world that we are all spending so much money on art when all the s**te goes on in the world around us.
A fair point Pez, but money won't solve the issues your refering to. It takes human effort and commitment, and therein lies the problem unfortunately.
Very true FPR. I did a mental tot up of the value of the art in my collection and thought, what the f**k am I doing. Firstly it is really scary that I have things of such value and secondly there are so many other much more worthwhile things I could spend it on. Its a bit of a screwed up world that we are all spending so much money on art when all the s**te goes on in the world around us. A fair point Pez, but money won't solve the issues your refering to. It takes human effort and commitment, and therein lies the problem unfortunately. |
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