Gamma
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 104
๐๐ป 100
February 2021
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Bottom deckled Prints/Glass/Acrylic, by Gamma on Mar 7, 2022 9:38:08 GMT 1, Pretty unsure about how to frame a bottom deckled print. To be honest, I don't really understand why that is done (only the bottom, i mean). Would love to see some examples. Couldn't find much here or anywhere.
I know it's tiresome to talk about the difference of Acrylic and Glass and its mostly a money factor. I talked to my framer and he said the weight difference is not that much - couldn't verify that - artglass didn't reply to my message and didn't find any information only - so could somebody please chime in. Price information would be also of great interest to me.
Plan to frame Kai and Sunny - Blue flower 85cm x 120cm (33.5 x 47.2 inches) and it will be hung pretty high on my spiral stairs.
Thank you for reading
Cheers
Gamma
Pretty unsure about how to frame a bottom deckled print. To be honest, I don't really understand why that is done (only the bottom, i mean). Would love to see some examples. Couldn't find much here or anywhere.
I know it's tiresome to talk about the difference of Acrylic and Glass and its mostly a money factor. I talked to my framer and he said the weight difference is not that much - couldn't verify that - artglass didn't reply to my message and didn't find any information only - so could somebody please chime in. Price information would be also of great interest to me.
Plan to frame Kai and Sunny - Blue flower 85cm x 120cm (33.5 x 47.2 inches) and it will be hung pretty high on my spiral stairs.
Thank you for reading
Cheers
Gamma
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Bottom deckled Prints/Glass/Acrylic, by John The Badgers on Mar 7, 2022 13:40:44 GMT 1, Just my comment Gamma, but with a piece that size, glass would be too 'fragile', and could quite easily break?
I cant see any benefit with using glass, I'm pretty sure the acrylic would be lighter, and could possibly be shipped in the future.
Just my comment Gamma, but with a piece that size, glass would be too 'fragile', and could quite easily break?
I cant see any benefit with using glass, I'm pretty sure the acrylic would be lighter, and could possibly be shipped in the future.
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Deleted
๐จ๏ธ 0
๐๐ป
January 1970
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Bottom deckled Prints/Glass/Acrylic, by Deleted on Mar 7, 2022 13:54:41 GMT 1, Iโd float it and embrace the unique decked edge.
I donโt agree with John that itโs too big for glass. Iโve framed bigger behind glass.
I do agree though that ideally youโd use plexi. The problem is museum quality is 3 x as expensive as glass and thats a big factor.
Iโd float it and embrace the unique decked edge.
I donโt agree with John that itโs too big for glass. Iโve framed bigger behind glass.
I do agree though that ideally youโd use plexi. The problem is museum quality is 3 x as expensive as glass and thats a big factor.
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dullahmo
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 154
๐๐ป 91
January 2022
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Bottom deckled Prints/Glass/Acrylic, by dullahmo on Mar 7, 2022 15:26:00 GMT 1, Glass aside, the type of frame you use is a big factor as well. I`ve had the exact same size of prints be framed and solely because of the design / type of frame, it cost me 33-50% more!
As a ballpark figure. I recently got a piece by Cleon Peterson framed (conservation standard) which was a 32x32" piece, float frame, 50mm mount on all sides. I`ll post a picture below. It cost me ยฃ200 to be framed, total size 97*97cm. I wanted a slightly bigger mount but my framer urged me not to as >100*100cm and she would need to use plexiglass which she said would significantly up the price.
With the sizes of your print, I feel as though plexi-glass would be needed. You may well be looking into the 300ยฃ range for conservation standard.
Glass aside, the type of frame you use is a big factor as well. I`ve had the exact same size of prints be framed and solely because of the design / type of frame, it cost me 33-50% more! As a ballpark figure. I recently got a piece by Cleon Peterson framed (conservation standard) which was a 32x32" piece, float frame, 50mm mount on all sides. I`ll post a picture below. It cost me ยฃ200 to be framed, total size 97*97cm. I wanted a slightly bigger mount but my framer urged me not to as >100*100cm and she would need to use plexiglass which she said would significantly up the price. With the sizes of your print, I feel as though plexi-glass would be needed. You may well be looking into the 300ยฃ range for conservation standard. |
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Gamma
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 104
๐๐ป 100
February 2021
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Bottom deckled Prints/Glass/Acrylic, by Gamma on Mar 7, 2022 17:18:15 GMT 1, Thanks for the replies. Think i will use AR Plexi and go all out. I am just too concerned about my cats, if it falls down and they run down the stairs. Plexi would crack but no Splitter, right? Aluminium dowels to minimise the risk.
Hopefully it will stay below 700โฌ (if i calculate it is double the price what i paid for Summer Skin (30 ร 22 , 76.2 ร 55.9 cm) floated with hand finished frame bars). Do you guys think this can be done?
My framer is a little bit funny, because for some reasons i donโt know, he doesnโt like to use AR92 glass and always tries to talk me into using AR70. Now i try to get as much information before i go to him to be prepared, when i tell him i would like to use AR Plexi.
So if anybody has a concrete Number that would be perfect
@theartmencometh i donโt know how much the glass price is alone. So, i sadly canโt relate to 3x.
Yes of course i could change the framer but i get around 30% off (i think) already. Itโs a little bit of a funny business, i still have no idea how frames are calculated. He just says: We will come to a conclusion with the price as always.
dullahmo that looks very nice - i wouldnโt hesitate to go for floated if it would be deckled all around. Thank you for the pictures.
If anybody knows some prints which are only bottom deckled, that i can look up online please tell me.
Think i have two options - floated or a small deep passepartout.
Edit: Better Half decided, floated it is on white background - frame will be something bright - Anti Reflective Acrylic.
Thank you all for helping!
Cheers
Gamma
PS. Sorry about spelling, my PC is not recognising English right now.
Thanks for the replies. Think i will use AR Plexi and go all out. I am just too concerned about my cats, if it falls down and they run down the stairs. Plexi would crack but no Splitter, right? Aluminium dowels to minimise the risk.
Hopefully it will stay below 700โฌ (if i calculate it is double the price what i paid for Summer Skin (30 ร 22 , 76.2 ร 55.9 cm) floated with hand finished frame bars). Do you guys think this can be done?
My framer is a little bit funny, because for some reasons i donโt know, he doesnโt like to use AR92 glass and always tries to talk me into using AR70. Now i try to get as much information before i go to him to be prepared, when i tell him i would like to use AR Plexi.
So if anybody has a concrete Number that would be perfect
@theartmencometh i donโt know how much the glass price is alone. So, i sadly canโt relate to 3x.
Yes of course i could change the framer but i get around 30% off (i think) already. Itโs a little bit of a funny business, i still have no idea how frames are calculated. He just says: We will come to a conclusion with the price as always.
dullahmo that looks very nice - i wouldnโt hesitate to go for floated if it would be deckled all around. Thank you for the pictures.
If anybody knows some prints which are only bottom deckled, that i can look up online please tell me.
Think i have two options - floated or a small deep passepartout.
Edit: Better Half decided, floated it is on white background - frame will be something bright - Anti Reflective Acrylic.
Thank you all for helping!
Cheers
Gamma
PS. Sorry about spelling, my PC is not recognising English right now.
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Bottom deckled Prints/Glass/Acrylic, by John The Badgers on Mar 7, 2022 20:11:51 GMT 1, Please share a picture on here when you have it framed Gamma, nice print that, and would be great to see.
Please share a picture on here when you have it framed Gamma, nice print that, and would be great to see.
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Gamma
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 104
๐๐ป 100
February 2021
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Bottom deckled Prints/Glass/Acrylic, by Gamma on Mar 7, 2022 21:56:16 GMT 1, Will do that John, sadly i unpacked it and it is damaged,
First time something like that happend. Hopefully it will be sorted out. Curious how the procedure will be.
But once this is done and framed i will upload a picture.
Will do that John, sadly i unpacked it and it is damaged, First time something like that happend. Hopefully it will be sorted out. Curious how the procedure will be. But once this is done and framed i will upload a picture. |
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Gamma
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 104
๐๐ป 100
February 2021
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Bottom deckled Prints/Glass/Acrylic, by Gamma on Mar 16, 2022 15:45:26 GMT 1, No luck with the gallery, think they are ghosting me. I'm in a hurry so brought the print to a paper restoration today. Not ideal, but I think she will do a good job, looking at her references and personal impression.
She found a few other imperfections on first look and explained to me that the damage above is not only from transport, the "squeeze crinkles" are from poor handling (on the left, they are hard to see on this shot).
No luck with the gallery, think they are ghosting me. I'm in a hurry so brought the print to a paper restoration today. Not ideal, but I think she will do a good job, looking at her references and personal impression.
She found a few other imperfections on first look and explained to me that the damage above is not only from transport, the "squeeze crinkles" are from poor handling (on the left, they are hard to see on this shot).
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Bottom deckled Prints/Glass/Acrylic, by John The Badgers on Mar 16, 2022 19:54:13 GMT 1, Sorry to hear the issues with the gallery Gamma.
If the damage caused by 'poor handling/packing', surprised they are not taking responsibility?
Is it a well known gallery?
Sorry to hear the issues with the gallery Gamma.
If the damage caused by 'poor handling/packing', surprised they are not taking responsibility?
Is it a well known gallery?
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Bottom deckled Prints/Glass/Acrylic, by Jokin Jester on Mar 16, 2022 20:14:25 GMT 1, AR70 prob has a bit less tint than AR92, and from a cost-to-performance perspective it's probably more than good enough for UV protection in most cases. Unless you've got direct sunlight shining on the piece over many years. Sounds to me you found a good, friendly framer who isn't keen on extracting top dollar ?
AR70 prob has a bit less tint than AR92, and from a cost-to-performance perspective it's probably more than good enough for UV protection in most cases. Unless you've got direct sunlight shining on the piece over many years. Sounds to me you found a good, friendly framer who isn't keen on extracting top dollar ?
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Gamma
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 104
๐๐ป 100
February 2021
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Bottom deckled Prints/Glass/Acrylic, by Gamma on Mar 16, 2022 22:37:16 GMT 1, Sorry to hear the issues with the gallery Gamma. If the damage caused by 'poor handling/packing', surprised they are not taking responsibility? Is it a well known gallery?
Thank you - i don't even get to the point discussing it. They ignored my mails, called them two times already. Only to get a "send pics again", then nothing happened. Don't really know, but I read they are in business for a long time. Don't want to name them, because I still hope to find a solution. Have to pay 200โฌ for the restoration. They have to build a setup to put the print into fluids, because it's so big. She said the crinkle is from transport, but the squeeze crinkles are from mishandling.
Edit: Follow up, Gallery refunded the 200โฌ. Lets hope it goes smoother from here on.
Sorry to hear the issues with the gallery Gamma. If the damage caused by 'poor handling/packing', surprised they are not taking responsibility? Is it a well known gallery? Thank you - i don't even get to the point discussing it. They ignored my mails, called them two times already. Only to get a "send pics again", then nothing happened. Don't really know, but I read they are in business for a long time. Don't want to name them, because I still hope to find a solution. Have to pay 200โฌ for the restoration. They have to build a setup to put the print into fluids, because it's so big. She said the crinkle is from transport, but the squeeze crinkles are from mishandling. Edit: Follow up, Gallery refunded the 200โฌ. Lets hope it goes smoother from here on. |
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Gamma
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 104
๐๐ป 100
February 2021
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Bottom deckled Prints/Glass/Acrylic, by Gamma on Mar 16, 2022 22:46:12 GMT 1, AR70 prob has a bit less tint than AR92, and from a cost-to-performance perspective it's probably more than good enough for UV protection in most cases. Unless you've got direct sunlight shining on the piece over many years. Sounds to me you found a good, friendly framer who isn't keen on extracting top dollar ?
Thank you for the information. He is a really nice old guy over 40 years in the business and we connect pretty good. I love to talk to him and learn from his experience and he, I think, likes to teach some youngster.
Edit: And to my first post, I did ask him about the AR70 and 92 differences and why he is keen on AR70. He said 70 is good enough, but he knows I would like 92 so he just used that for my Paco Pomet Minis, Annatomix (with passepartout) and Olly Howe. He charged me 100โฌ each for 2 wood and 2 aluminium frames with AR92, think that's fair.
Edit2: ^_^ sorry, but wanted to let you guys know, Olly Howe Radiant, orange, yellow, is still available, don't know why it is not shown when searching his shop.
www.ollyhowe.com/products/radiant-1
AR70 prob has a bit less tint than AR92, and from a cost-to-performance perspective it's probably more than good enough for UV protection in most cases. Unless you've got direct sunlight shining on the piece over many years. Sounds to me you found a good, friendly framer who isn't keen on extracting top dollar ? Thank you for the information. He is a really nice old guy over 40 years in the business and we connect pretty good. I love to talk to him and learn from his experience and he, I think, likes to teach some youngster. Edit: And to my first post, I did ask him about the AR70 and 92 differences and why he is keen on AR70. He said 70 is good enough, but he knows I would like 92 so he just used that for my Paco Pomet Minis, Annatomix (with passepartout) and Olly Howe. He charged me 100โฌ each for 2 wood and 2 aluminium frames with AR92, think that's fair. Edit2: ^_^ sorry, but wanted to let you guys know, Olly Howe Radiant, orange, yellow, is still available, don't know why it is not shown when searching his shop. www.ollyhowe.com/products/radiant-1 |
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Gamma
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 104
๐๐ป 100
February 2021
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Bottom deckled Prints/Glass/Acrylic, by Gamma on May 13, 2022 11:43:44 GMT 1, My bad luck with the print continues. Restoration was fine. Damage nearly gone and print was flat.
Decided on a Frame with Plexi AR99 float mounted. First time it came back, float mounted without a gap but a scratch they put into it (also donโt know what to do about that, they try not to mention it and say i should tell them the amount of money i want for that).
Second time i got it back "high" floatmounted. And now i have, on the points where it was mounted before - waves and i think it touches the Plexi on one point. Im not happy with that either and it interferes with the lines motive.
So after a week they presented me two options: First is to press/glue it on an aluminium board (another 200โฌ)
Second is to glue it with a foil on the backboard
On both the cant guarantee it will be fixed (non wavy), but they insist the print is as flat as it was after the restoration (no harm done with the first or second attempt).
I have no idea what to do now. Could somebody please help me and give some advice? Thank you
ibb.co/WG2VV8j
Touching the plexi?
ibb.co/Q8bqJFR
Scratch
ibb.co/D7TYwXt
My bad luck with the print continues. Restoration was fine. Damage nearly gone and print was flat. Decided on a Frame with Plexi AR99 float mounted. First time it came back, float mounted without a gap but a scratch they put into it (also donโt know what to do about that, they try not to mention it and say i should tell them the amount of money i want for that). Second time i got it back "high" floatmounted. And now i have, on the points where it was mounted before - waves and i think it touches the Plexi on one point. Im not happy with that either and it interferes with the lines motive. So after a week they presented me two options: First is to press/glue it on an aluminium board (another 200โฌ) Second is to glue it with a foil on the backboard On both the cant guarantee it will be fixed (non wavy), but they insist the print is as flat as it was after the restoration (no harm done with the first or second attempt). I have no idea what to do now. Could somebody please help me and give some advice? Thank you ibb.co/WG2VV8jTouching the plexi? ibb.co/Q8bqJFRScratch ibb.co/D7TYwXt |
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Terry Fuckwitt
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 3,600
๐๐ป 6,562
October 2019
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Bottom deckled Prints/Glass/Acrylic, by Terry Fuckwitt on May 13, 2022 12:21:52 GMT 1, My bad luck with the print continues. Restoration was fine. Damage nearly gone and print was flat. Decided on a Frame with Plexi AR99 float mounted. First time it came back, float mounted without a gap but a scratch they put into it (also donโt know what to do about that, they try not to mention it and say i should tell them the amount of money i want for that). Second time i got it back "high" floatmounted. And now i have, on the points where it was mounted before - waves and i think it touches the Plexi on one point. Im not happy with that either and it interferes with the lines motive. So after a week they presented me two options: First is to press/glue it on an aluminium board (another 200โฌ) Second is to glue it with a foil on the backboard On both the cant guarantee it will be fixed (non wavy), but they insist the print is as flat as it was after the restoration (no harm done with the first or second attempt). I have no idea what to do now. Could somebody please help me and give some advice? Thank you ibb.co/WG2VV8jTouching the plexi? ibb.co/Q8bqJFRScratch ibb.co/D7TYwXt
Don't think they could have fucked it up any more if they tried.
It looks like it has been stuck down at various points and changes in humidity/air temp have caused it to shrink. High float mount looks silly too for this print.
You certainly don't want to dry mount it and any decent framer should know better than suggest doing this.
I would forget about trying to float it and go with a mount. Personally, I'm not keen floating images with borders anyway.
I would also ask for good compensation on the damage they have caused and inspect the reverse of the print when it's removed.
My bad luck with the print continues. Restoration was fine. Damage nearly gone and print was flat. Decided on a Frame with Plexi AR99 float mounted. First time it came back, float mounted without a gap but a scratch they put into it (also donโt know what to do about that, they try not to mention it and say i should tell them the amount of money i want for that). Second time i got it back "high" floatmounted. And now i have, on the points where it was mounted before - waves and i think it touches the Plexi on one point. Im not happy with that either and it interferes with the lines motive. So after a week they presented me two options: First is to press/glue it on an aluminium board (another 200โฌ) Second is to glue it with a foil on the backboard On both the cant guarantee it will be fixed (non wavy), but they insist the print is as flat as it was after the restoration (no harm done with the first or second attempt). I have no idea what to do now. Could somebody please help me and give some advice? Thank you ibb.co/WG2VV8jTouching the plexi? ibb.co/Q8bqJFRScratch ibb.co/D7TYwXtDon't think they could have fucked it up any more if they tried. It looks like it has been stuck down at various points and changes in humidity/air temp have caused it to shrink. High float mount looks silly too for this print. You certainly don't want to dry mount it and any decent framer should know better than suggest doing this. I would forget about trying to float it and go with a mount. Personally, I'm not keen floating images with borders anyway. I would also ask for good compensation on the damage they have caused and inspect the reverse of the print when it's removed. |
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Gamma
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 104
๐๐ป 100
February 2021
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Bottom deckled Prints/Glass/Acrylic, by Gamma on May 13, 2022 14:42:24 GMT 1, My bad luck with the print continues. Restoration was fine. Damage nearly gone and print was flat. Decided on a Frame with Plexi AR99 float mounted. First time it came back, float mounted without a gap but a scratch they put into it (also donโt know what to do about that, they try not to mention it and say i should tell them the amount of money i want for that). Second time i got it back "high" floatmounted. And now i have, on the points where it was mounted before - waves and i think it touches the Plexi on one point. Im not happy with that either and it interferes with the lines motive. So after a week they presented me two options: First is to press/glue it on an aluminium board (another 200โฌ) Second is to glue it with a foil on the backboard On both the cant guarantee it will be fixed (non wavy), but they insist the print is as flat as it was after the restoration (no harm done with the first or second attempt). I have no idea what to do now. Could somebody please help me and give some advice? Thank you ibb.co/WG2VV8jTouching the plexi? ibb.co/Q8bqJFRScratch ibb.co/D7TYwXtDon't think they could have fucked it up any more if they tried. It looks like it has been stuck down at various points and changes in humidity/air temp have caused it to shrink. High float mount looks silly too for this print. You certainly don't want to dry mount it and any decent framer should know better than suggest doing this. I would forget about trying to float it and go with a mount. Personally, I'm not keen floating images with borders anyway. I would also ask for good compensation on the damage they have caused and inspect the reverse of the print when it's removed.
Thank you for your reply. Think you are right, maybe its best to go with a passepartout and forget about floating. Hopefully this will work.
What do you think is a good compensation? Paid 700 for the print.
Feel so bummed out, as i paid 1.1k for the framing.
My bad luck with the print continues. Restoration was fine. Damage nearly gone and print was flat. Decided on a Frame with Plexi AR99 float mounted. First time it came back, float mounted without a gap but a scratch they put into it (also donโt know what to do about that, they try not to mention it and say i should tell them the amount of money i want for that). Second time i got it back "high" floatmounted. And now i have, on the points where it was mounted before - waves and i think it touches the Plexi on one point. Im not happy with that either and it interferes with the lines motive. So after a week they presented me two options: First is to press/glue it on an aluminium board (another 200โฌ) Second is to glue it with a foil on the backboard On both the cant guarantee it will be fixed (non wavy), but they insist the print is as flat as it was after the restoration (no harm done with the first or second attempt). I have no idea what to do now. Could somebody please help me and give some advice? Thank you ibb.co/WG2VV8jTouching the plexi? ibb.co/Q8bqJFRScratch ibb.co/D7TYwXtDon't think they could have fucked it up any more if they tried. It looks like it has been stuck down at various points and changes in humidity/air temp have caused it to shrink. High float mount looks silly too for this print. You certainly don't want to dry mount it and any decent framer should know better than suggest doing this. I would forget about trying to float it and go with a mount. Personally, I'm not keen floating images with borders anyway. I would also ask for good compensation on the damage they have caused and inspect the reverse of the print when it's removed. Thank you for your reply. Think you are right, maybe its best to go with a passepartout and forget about floating. Hopefully this will work. What do you think is a good compensation? Paid 700 for the print. Feel so bummed out, as i paid 1.1k for the framing. |
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Terry Fuckwitt
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 3,600
๐๐ป 6,562
October 2019
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Bottom deckled Prints/Glass/Acrylic, by Terry Fuckwitt on May 13, 2022 15:34:40 GMT 1, Don't think they could have fucked it up any more if they tried. It looks like it has been stuck down at various points and changes in humidity/air temp have caused it to shrink. High float mount looks silly too for this print. You certainly don't want to dry mount it and any decent framer should know better than suggest doing this. I would forget about trying to float it and go with a mount. Personally, I'm not keen floating images with borders anyway. I would also ask for good compensation on the damage they have caused and inspect the reverse of the print when it's removed. Thank you for your reply. Think you are right, maybe its best to go with a passepartout and forget about floating. Hopefully this will work. What do you think is a good compensation? Paid 700 for the print. Feel so bummed out, as i paid 1.1k for the framing.
It's difficult to say, as marks sometimes show up worse through a camera. You should only accept a compensation that you would be happy with. If you are UK, then ยฃ1.1k seems a lot of money and you have every right to ask for a full refund and go elsewhere to have it reframed.
Don't think they could have fucked it up any more if they tried. It looks like it has been stuck down at various points and changes in humidity/air temp have caused it to shrink. High float mount looks silly too for this print. You certainly don't want to dry mount it and any decent framer should know better than suggest doing this. I would forget about trying to float it and go with a mount. Personally, I'm not keen floating images with borders anyway. I would also ask for good compensation on the damage they have caused and inspect the reverse of the print when it's removed. Thank you for your reply. Think you are right, maybe its best to go with a passepartout and forget about floating. Hopefully this will work. What do you think is a good compensation? Paid 700 for the print. Feel so bummed out, as i paid 1.1k for the framing. It's difficult to say, as marks sometimes show up worse through a camera. You should only accept a compensation that you would be happy with. If you are UK, then ยฃ1.1k seems a lot of money and you have every right to ask for a full refund and go elsewhere to have it reframed. |
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Bottom deckled Prints/Glass/Acrylic, by John The Badgers on May 13, 2022 19:00:45 GMT 1, Couldn't agree more with Mr Fuckwitt's comments Gamma, sorry to hear of the issues.
Chin up, and stick with it, its still a great print.
Your framing bill does seem high, I would be pushing them to either rectify FOC, or refunding.
Good comment as to inspecting the reverse of the print, this I would certainly insist on.
All the best with sorting.
Couldn't agree more with Mr Fuckwitt's comments Gamma, sorry to hear of the issues.
Chin up, and stick with it, its still a great print.
Your framing bill does seem high, I would be pushing them to either rectify FOC, or refunding.
Good comment as to inspecting the reverse of the print, this I would certainly insist on.
All the best with sorting.
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Gamma
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 104
๐๐ป 100
February 2021
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Bottom deckled Prints/Glass/Acrylic, by Gamma on May 14, 2022 21:57:35 GMT 1, Thank you for your replies. The 1.1k was in Euro but still expensive. I checked the cost of the plexi online and it was on point what he was telling me, 1.5k for the plexi alone for the middle thickness.
I hope it will look good with a passepartout, worried a little bit, because there is not enough space for it.
Thank you for your replies. The 1.1k was in Euro but still expensive. I checked the cost of the plexi online and it was on point what he was telling me, 1.5k for the plexi alone for the middle thickness.
I hope it will look good with a passepartout, worried a little bit, because there is not enough space for it.
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