jam
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November 2006
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by jam on Apr 21, 2008 0:56:19 GMT 1, I am absolutely floored by the Nick Walker revelation going on as of the past couple months. People are hoovering up anything they can buy no matter how crap the image, just because the rest of the heard is doing the same thing. Has there been a time warp that distorted peoples memories of only three short months ago when the world was slightly more sane and you couldn't give any Walker away? There were loads of NW pieces on ebay at below cost, and many people trying to trade stacks of them on the forums for anything they could get that wasn't a Nick Walker. Throw in one apocalyptic auction record and Walker is all the rage. Same crap images, same worn out themes, same editioned canvases, and prices 20+ times what you could buy the same pieces for in January. Total madness.
I would have thought the ability to pay ยฃ2-20k and up for a piece of art would have indicated a certain level of mental ability on the part of the person with said cash; that they were likely to be fairly bright to be able to earn such amounts of disposable funds in the first place. It has become apparent that my assumptions are far from the mark, as there is a seemingly limitless group with large amounts of cash ready and willing to throw it into a market that is as easily manipulated as the current art market. How is it that these sub-par images are commanding these sudden insane prices? How is it that one auction has turned so much focus to art that could barely be given away only months ago? How is it that anyone can put so much credibility into one suspect auction record, that they are willing to pay virtually anything required to own a piece of Nick Walker? Why isn't anyone asking "what the f**k is going on?!"
Perhaps ignorance is bliss, and everyone chooses to ignore how easily manipulate-able the art market is... so here is a breif lesson: First, take a consortium of investors and go buy everything you can purchase by one artist who has no auction records or hype around him. Second, put a piece in an auction that is reputable. Third, have a couple 'investors' or plants from the consortium show up at said auction and create a 'bidding war' and run the price of the piece up to insane levels... BAM! Instant credibility, instant perceived values, and instant buzz... all this hype and free publicity for the bargain basement price of ยฃ50k. Now the consortium has created unfounded demand for the previously undesirable artist whom they own stacks of work by, and the entire portfolio is now worth many, many times cost because of a small outlay to create the market relative to what the new 'value' of their artist is. Its plain and simple. We don't need to even delve into how easily manipulated the ebay market is with shill bids, hidden bidder IDs, multiple account abilities, and auctions listed just to give the sense there is more demand or higher prices for an artist than their actually is. The 'buzz' on the forums is just as laughable, as it is hard to determine who is backing an artist because they own many pieces they are relived they will be able to cash in on, or if they are working as or with an investor or gallery that has an interest in the hype.
Some interesting points by photobank on WK:
It just goes to show the unregulated nature of the art market and how vulnerable it is to manipulation and exploitation. There is always a new wave of potential buyers and naive speculators ripe for the picking. If it wasn't so easy, the perpetrators of these little ploys would merit a congratulatory handshake. I am still asking myself whether it is they, or those that so readily fall victim to their ruses, who most deserve to be lined up against a wall.
When you look at how easily it is to manipulate a market like this one and the amounts of profits that stand to be made, it is easy to reason a group of people will take a crack at it. There are so many people afraid to be left out, to miss out on 'the next big thing', that they will follow like lemmings with cash in hand to whatever is put in front of them. Art is subjective and art is a personal choice, something is appealing to someone and not to others; I get that, but lets be frank... 80% of the stuff that's paraded on these forums is genuine s**t and it wouldn't get a second look from a true collector, gallerist, or curator. Naturally people don't want to miss out on the next Banksy, but to purchase art in a shotgun effect and hope that out of all of it something hits just makes for a highly volatile market with a few sharks getting rich and it will ultimately leave many people with near worthless prints and paintings. As for who should be lined up against the wall? I have to say, if you aren't judicious about purchasing art, if its driven purely out of speculation or fear you will miss out, and if you choose to base all your purchase decisions from some posts on a forum or one auction record VS a steady career with reasonable growth... you deserve to loose your money. Weather or not it should be going in the pockets of market manipulators is something I can't answer, but they should be outed for what they and buyers should be aware of the exploitation going on in a market they are purchasing from. In the end; drawing research from multiple sources, using pragmatic purchase limitations, and buying because you honestly appreciate a piece or the artist is the only way to go... otherwise, its lambs to the slaughter.
I am absolutely floored by the Nick Walker revelation going on as of the past couple months. People are hoovering up anything they can buy no matter how crap the image, just because the rest of the heard is doing the same thing. Has there been a time warp that distorted peoples memories of only three short months ago when the world was slightly more sane and you couldn't give any Walker away? There were loads of NW pieces on ebay at below cost, and many people trying to trade stacks of them on the forums for anything they could get that wasn't a Nick Walker. Throw in one apocalyptic auction record and Walker is all the rage. Same crap images, same worn out themes, same editioned canvases, and prices 20+ times what you could buy the same pieces for in January. Total madness. I would have thought the ability to pay ยฃ2-20k and up for a piece of art would have indicated a certain level of mental ability on the part of the person with said cash; that they were likely to be fairly bright to be able to earn such amounts of disposable funds in the first place. It has become apparent that my assumptions are far from the mark, as there is a seemingly limitless group with large amounts of cash ready and willing to throw it into a market that is as easily manipulated as the current art market. How is it that these sub-par images are commanding these sudden insane prices? How is it that one auction has turned so much focus to art that could barely be given away only months ago? How is it that anyone can put so much credibility into one suspect auction record, that they are willing to pay virtually anything required to own a piece of Nick Walker? Why isn't anyone asking "what the f**k is going on?!" Perhaps ignorance is bliss, and everyone chooses to ignore how easily manipulate-able the art market is... so here is a breif lesson: First, take a consortium of investors and go buy everything you can purchase by one artist who has no auction records or hype around him. Second, put a piece in an auction that is reputable. Third, have a couple 'investors' or plants from the consortium show up at said auction and create a 'bidding war' and run the price of the piece up to insane levels... BAM! Instant credibility, instant perceived values, and instant buzz... all this hype and free publicity for the bargain basement price of ยฃ50k. Now the consortium has created unfounded demand for the previously undesirable artist whom they own stacks of work by, and the entire portfolio is now worth many, many times cost because of a small outlay to create the market relative to what the new 'value' of their artist is. Its plain and simple. We don't need to even delve into how easily manipulated the ebay market is with shill bids, hidden bidder IDs, multiple account abilities, and auctions listed just to give the sense there is more demand or higher prices for an artist than their actually is. The 'buzz' on the forums is just as laughable, as it is hard to determine who is backing an artist because they own many pieces they are relived they will be able to cash in on, or if they are working as or with an investor or gallery that has an interest in the hype. Some interesting points by photobank on WK: It just goes to show the unregulated nature of the art market and how vulnerable it is to manipulation and exploitation. There is always a new wave of potential buyers and naive speculators ripe for the picking. If it wasn't so easy, the perpetrators of these little ploys would merit a congratulatory handshake. I am still asking myself whether it is they, or those that so readily fall victim to their ruses, who most deserve to be lined up against a wall. When you look at how easily it is to manipulate a market like this one and the amounts of profits that stand to be made, it is easy to reason a group of people will take a crack at it. There are so many people afraid to be left out, to miss out on 'the next big thing', that they will follow like lemmings with cash in hand to whatever is put in front of them. Art is subjective and art is a personal choice, something is appealing to someone and not to others; I get that, but lets be frank... 80% of the stuff that's paraded on these forums is genuine s**t and it wouldn't get a second look from a true collector, gallerist, or curator. Naturally people don't want to miss out on the next Banksy, but to purchase art in a shotgun effect and hope that out of all of it something hits just makes for a highly volatile market with a few sharks getting rich and it will ultimately leave many people with near worthless prints and paintings. As for who should be lined up against the wall? I have to say, if you aren't judicious about purchasing art, if its driven purely out of speculation or fear you will miss out, and if you choose to base all your purchase decisions from some posts on a forum or one auction record VS a steady career with reasonable growth... you deserve to loose your money. Weather or not it should be going in the pockets of market manipulators is something I can't answer, but they should be outed for what they and buyers should be aware of the exploitation going on in a market they are purchasing from. In the end; drawing research from multiple sources, using pragmatic purchase limitations, and buying because you honestly appreciate a piece or the artist is the only way to go... otherwise, its lambs to the slaughter. |
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by orangematt on Apr 21, 2008 1:07:42 GMT 1, I agree with your points - many nails hit very soundly 
BUT - thats market economies isnt it !?
economics - free trade supply and demand !!
stamps - birds eggs - chesterfield drawers - football stickers - pots and pans - foreign currency - grain - wheat .prices go up .. prices go down ... one day everyone want a tamagotchi .. next day they flush em down the pan ...
everything changes as time ticks past - whats here today is gone tomorrow -
Life IS short
If you get enjoyment out of it - so what .. have a laugh .
Nothing matters.... dont worry ...
I agree with your points - many nails hit very soundly BUT - thats market economies isnt it !? economics - free trade supply and demand !! stamps - birds eggs - chesterfield drawers - football stickers - pots and pans - foreign currency - grain - wheat .prices go up .. prices go down ... one day everyone want a tamagotchi .. next day they flush em down the pan ... everything changes as time ticks past - whats here today is gone tomorrow - Life IS short If you get enjoyment out of it - so what .. have a laugh . Nothing matters.... dont worry ... |
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by farmergeddon on Apr 21, 2008 1:20:49 GMT 1, Jam.... out of interest did you go to the show?
Jam.... out of interest did you go to the show?
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daveart
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February 2008
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by daveart on Apr 21, 2008 2:29:28 GMT 1, I think some of NW pieces are really pretty cool. some of course are not. but this could be said for any artist.. or really .. an person doing their work day to day. some days good.. some days spent looking up football stats.
one NW series i rarely see mentioned on here is the Born 2 Bomb prints. i personally feel these are really very cool.. and unique. that cannot quite be said for the marge simpson prints.. hard really to believe it is the same guy..
really though... we cannot blame the artist for the hype .. unless we believe NW is coordinating all of these galleries, buyers, etc etc.
as an aside.. a lot of the Banksy pieces are really not high art in any stretch.. clever? absolutely. striking? of course.. but high end art like a Picasso or Monet or other big name preceeding him... i cannot personally stretch that far.
I think some of NW pieces are really pretty cool. some of course are not. but this could be said for any artist.. or really .. an person doing their work day to day. some days good.. some days spent looking up football stats.
one NW series i rarely see mentioned on here is the Born 2 Bomb prints. i personally feel these are really very cool.. and unique. that cannot quite be said for the marge simpson prints.. hard really to believe it is the same guy..
really though... we cannot blame the artist for the hype .. unless we believe NW is coordinating all of these galleries, buyers, etc etc.
as an aside.. a lot of the Banksy pieces are really not high art in any stretch.. clever? absolutely. striking? of course.. but high end art like a Picasso or Monet or other big name preceeding him... i cannot personally stretch that far.
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jamesreeve5
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September 2012
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by jamesreeve5 on Apr 21, 2008 2:33:59 GMT 1, Jam... you are completely right, and it's a scary thing
Jam... you are completely right, and it's a scary thing
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Heavyconsumer
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February 2008
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by Heavyconsumer on Apr 21, 2008 2:45:18 GMT 1, I agree with your points Jam. I think that it's worth noting that Nick's work varies greatly in quality too. There was a point when I bought the Mona Simpson print from POW out of frustration of not being able to sort out payment with Nick's employee/wife/whoever regarding some purchases from his own website (this was a short while before the Bonhams sale earlier in the year). Of course I was gutted when the print arrived - I hate it and still don't really know what came over me!!! But then you look at the TMA series and I also feel the "Life's too Short" is a great looking piece and it's clear he's very capable, even if there's a fair amount of poor work in his CV.
I also think that this market explosion could end in tears for many speculators, but I hope Nick can achieve some financial security from it and keep developing his work as I do feel he has something very positive to offer.
I agree with your points Jam. I think that it's worth noting that Nick's work varies greatly in quality too. There was a point when I bought the Mona Simpson print from POW out of frustration of not being able to sort out payment with Nick's employee/wife/whoever regarding some purchases from his own website (this was a short while before the Bonhams sale earlier in the year). Of course I was gutted when the print arrived - I hate it and still don't really know what came over me!!! But then you look at the TMA series and I also feel the "Life's too Short" is a great looking piece and it's clear he's very capable, even if there's a fair amount of poor work in his CV.
I also think that this market explosion could end in tears for many speculators, but I hope Nick can achieve some financial security from it and keep developing his work as I do feel he has something very positive to offer.
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by Gentle Mental on Apr 21, 2008 3:08:21 GMT 1, I let sooooo many NW passed me by before the hype. They were all there originals for less than 500 pounds.... now i feel bitter, kicking myself, then again, there was a reason why i let them go even when it was dirt cheap... i thought they kinda look like juvenile banksy wannabe.... moona? monkey in a spacesuit.... c'mon!
so i stop kicking myself for a while... then i kick myself again looking at the pix from the show... then i thought now he's no longer a juvenile banksy, but a banksy alternative, but that's not very good thing is it? then i see that butterfly... i feel like a dog chasing its own tail...
I let sooooo many NW passed me by before the hype. They were all there originals for less than 500 pounds.... now i feel bitter, kicking myself, then again, there was a reason why i let them go even when it was dirt cheap... i thought they kinda look like juvenile banksy wannabe.... moona? monkey in a spacesuit.... c'mon!
so i stop kicking myself for a while... then i kick myself again looking at the pix from the show... then i thought now he's no longer a juvenile banksy, but a banksy alternative, but that's not very good thing is it? then i see that butterfly... i feel like a dog chasing its own tail...
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aginghippie
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December 2007
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by aginghippie on Apr 21, 2008 4:00:33 GMT 1, I strongly dislike this sort of post because it is impossible to refute and so tends to stand by default casting a pall over the artist. The scam you outline can always be levelled at any artist.
What is often overlooked is that Banksy and Nick Walker pieces are at the bottom end of the market. Hopefully over the years that will change but right now they are cheap. Certainly in Nick Walkers case, less so in Banksy's, this means that serious manipulation is not worthwhile because the money to be made just isn't there. It's far simpler just to buy a high value piece and get your gain like that rather than have to build a whole portfolio to achieve the same results.
So what do I think we are seeing? Put simply this is the beginning of their careers so any price rise will seem huge because it's starting from such a low base. Are people hovering up stuff indiscriminately? Certainly and they will be burnt. With Nick Walker his earlier work will never be as desirable as the TMA series, with Banksy the early prints were often treated as posters so probably the majority have little value in investment terms.
But is there some grand conspiracy? I very much doubt it as there just isn't enough money in it right now. That's not to say that this whole school couldn't crash and burn, that's happened before.
I strongly dislike this sort of post because it is impossible to refute and so tends to stand by default casting a pall over the artist. The scam you outline can always be levelled at any artist.
What is often overlooked is that Banksy and Nick Walker pieces are at the bottom end of the market. Hopefully over the years that will change but right now they are cheap. Certainly in Nick Walkers case, less so in Banksy's, this means that serious manipulation is not worthwhile because the money to be made just isn't there. It's far simpler just to buy a high value piece and get your gain like that rather than have to build a whole portfolio to achieve the same results.
So what do I think we are seeing? Put simply this is the beginning of their careers so any price rise will seem huge because it's starting from such a low base. Are people hovering up stuff indiscriminately? Certainly and they will be burnt. With Nick Walker his earlier work will never be as desirable as the TMA series, with Banksy the early prints were often treated as posters so probably the majority have little value in investment terms.
But is there some grand conspiracy? I very much doubt it as there just isn't enough money in it right now. That's not to say that this whole school couldn't crash and burn, that's happened before.
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by leumasdarnley on Apr 21, 2008 4:12:29 GMT 1, Very well said
Very well said
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by Gentle Mental on Apr 21, 2008 4:55:31 GMT 1, everyone should calm down... i hate it when market's in a frenzy like this... can't buy stuff with a clear mind... often causes one to make really bad and expensive choices...
everyone should calm down... i hate it when market's in a frenzy like this... can't buy stuff with a clear mind... often causes one to make really bad and expensive choices...
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thetruth55
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November 2007
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by thetruth55 on Apr 21, 2008 5:09:33 GMT 1, i'd like to know if the people that feel the Nick Walker phenomenon lacks credibility are the same people that missed out on prints, passed on pieces a few months ago that would have pocketed them some change, and are downright just bitter about the whole thing. this recent BRP show has been hyped for months and then days after the show, people show up out of the woodwork hating on him. sounds like a lot of bitterness going on.
i'd like to know if the people that feel the Nick Walker phenomenon lacks credibility are the same people that missed out on prints, passed on pieces a few months ago that would have pocketed them some change, and are downright just bitter about the whole thing. this recent BRP show has been hyped for months and then days after the show, people show up out of the woodwork hating on him. sounds like a lot of bitterness going on.
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by Gentle Mental on Apr 21, 2008 5:24:20 GMT 1, i must admit i am feeling bitter. and it's growing every day...
jeez now i know how you guys feel when you guys passed on 'em ยฃ100 signed POW banksy back in the day....
i must admit i am feeling bitter. and it's growing every day...
jeez now i know how you guys feel when you guys passed on 'em ยฃ100 signed POW banksy back in the day....
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by Gentle Mental on Apr 21, 2008 5:28:10 GMT 1, sometimes you need a lot of people to tell you it's good before you know it's good...
but by then it'll be too late.
That is the truth.
wish i'm as astute as most of you guys.
sometimes you need a lot of people to tell you it's good before you know it's good...
but by then it'll be too late.
That is the truth.
wish i'm as astute as most of you guys.
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jam
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November 2006
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by jam on Apr 21, 2008 7:55:48 GMT 1, To address some of the comments:
The notion this unregulated market of art and its vulnerability to being so easily manipulated is simple "market economics" or "free trade supply and demand" is a bit off the mark. By that reasoning pump-and-dump stocks, pyramid schemes, and such are also fair market, and I do not believe that to be the case. Fair market as a rule is a well informed and willing seller unaffected by pressure to sell and acting in his own best interest selling to a buyer that is as well informed and unaffected by pressure to buy coming together and agreeing on a value for the item. This is impossible to achieve when disingenuous parties are having an effect on what information is relayed to what should be a well-informed buyer weather it is through manipulated auction prices (ebay or other), biased write-ups, or other factors gained in due diligence that would give the buyer improper information to base a value upon.
I did not attend the UK show. I have seen many photos of the work and prints, and I am left as unimpressed as I was with my initial impression of Walker's work a couple years ago. I am not having a go at Nick so much as the house of cards market that is growing wildly out of control. I understand many artists go through periods in their careers that they produce lesser work, but to command the prices being asked across the board for Walker's pieces seems out of sync with reality. How is it that so many people had a sudden epiphany and came to the realization Nick Walker pieces are worth as much as Banksys?
There is a great deal of talk relating to the Bonhams record, and the sudden uptick in secondary market pricing, and I am concerned people are putting FAR to much credence in valuation from sources that are so easily subject to tampering. I feel it would be in everyone's interest to discuss the reliability issues associated with valuations based on auction records on these forums so that people are able to make more educated purchases. Talk of credit card debit and sacrifices to purchase art worry me, because it seems some people are borderline compulsive about collecting art, perhaps born out of hope the prices will continue to rise and become some sort of retirement fund. If people wish to take such risks, I would hope the forums could provide more discussion as to the underlying factors in the art markets rather than just hyping the next big thing.
There is no need for rebuttal because I am not calling out Walker, just trying to bring light to a factor people seemingly dismiss. It's meant to be an open discussion about the possibilities and to make aware people who had not considered the fact the sales records on ebay and normal venues are not as reliable as they are given credit for being. When you contemplate the massive percentage gains Walker pieces have seen since the Bonhams sale, it isn't a stretch to see how it is in fact worthwhile to be involved in market manipulation. You are talking about something along the lines of a ยฃ75-100k investment including auction tampering, that would result in a ยฃ1,500,000 gross return just using the percentage gains that have been seen since the ยฃ45k hammer... not a drop in the bucket and something that would be far less an outlay than buying a 'real' artist like Richard Prince of Jeff Koons for example, and waiting for the market to go up without having the luxury of directly altering perceived values and having a nearly instant return.
I have also taken the auction record in context of the hammer prices beating sales estimates. Most auction houses put their guidance prices lower than actual market to generate interest and give hopefuls the sense they have a chance to buy something to get the room bidding. I didn't get the notion anyone was overly surprised at the prices being achieved by the Banksys, Neates, or Failes. There have been steady records and demand for those artists right along. While pieces by the those artists were selling at higher than estimates and higher than sales of comparable pieces in venues such as private sales, it wasn't shockingly so. When the Walker hit at over 10 times the estimate, people were stunned.
To address some of the comments:
The notion this unregulated market of art and its vulnerability to being so easily manipulated is simple "market economics" or "free trade supply and demand" is a bit off the mark. By that reasoning pump-and-dump stocks, pyramid schemes, and such are also fair market, and I do not believe that to be the case. Fair market as a rule is a well informed and willing seller unaffected by pressure to sell and acting in his own best interest selling to a buyer that is as well informed and unaffected by pressure to buy coming together and agreeing on a value for the item. This is impossible to achieve when disingenuous parties are having an effect on what information is relayed to what should be a well-informed buyer weather it is through manipulated auction prices (ebay or other), biased write-ups, or other factors gained in due diligence that would give the buyer improper information to base a value upon.
I did not attend the UK show. I have seen many photos of the work and prints, and I am left as unimpressed as I was with my initial impression of Walker's work a couple years ago. I am not having a go at Nick so much as the house of cards market that is growing wildly out of control. I understand many artists go through periods in their careers that they produce lesser work, but to command the prices being asked across the board for Walker's pieces seems out of sync with reality. How is it that so many people had a sudden epiphany and came to the realization Nick Walker pieces are worth as much as Banksys?
There is a great deal of talk relating to the Bonhams record, and the sudden uptick in secondary market pricing, and I am concerned people are putting FAR to much credence in valuation from sources that are so easily subject to tampering. I feel it would be in everyone's interest to discuss the reliability issues associated with valuations based on auction records on these forums so that people are able to make more educated purchases. Talk of credit card debit and sacrifices to purchase art worry me, because it seems some people are borderline compulsive about collecting art, perhaps born out of hope the prices will continue to rise and become some sort of retirement fund. If people wish to take such risks, I would hope the forums could provide more discussion as to the underlying factors in the art markets rather than just hyping the next big thing.
There is no need for rebuttal because I am not calling out Walker, just trying to bring light to a factor people seemingly dismiss. It's meant to be an open discussion about the possibilities and to make aware people who had not considered the fact the sales records on ebay and normal venues are not as reliable as they are given credit for being. When you contemplate the massive percentage gains Walker pieces have seen since the Bonhams sale, it isn't a stretch to see how it is in fact worthwhile to be involved in market manipulation. You are talking about something along the lines of a ยฃ75-100k investment including auction tampering, that would result in a ยฃ1,500,000 gross return just using the percentage gains that have been seen since the ยฃ45k hammer... not a drop in the bucket and something that would be far less an outlay than buying a 'real' artist like Richard Prince of Jeff Koons for example, and waiting for the market to go up without having the luxury of directly altering perceived values and having a nearly instant return.
I have also taken the auction record in context of the hammer prices beating sales estimates. Most auction houses put their guidance prices lower than actual market to generate interest and give hopefuls the sense they have a chance to buy something to get the room bidding. I didn't get the notion anyone was overly surprised at the prices being achieved by the Banksys, Neates, or Failes. There have been steady records and demand for those artists right along. While pieces by the those artists were selling at higher than estimates and higher than sales of comparable pieces in venues such as private sales, it wasn't shockingly so. When the Walker hit at over 10 times the estimate, people were stunned.
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welshboy
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January 2008
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by welshboy on Apr 21, 2008 8:04:11 GMT 1, You`re just pissed you did`nt get any quality print`s when you cauld have.Should have seen it coming,just like the early day`s on a banksy for a couple of quid.
You`re just pissed you did`nt get any quality print`s when you cauld have.Should have seen it coming,just like the early day`s on a banksy for a couple of quid.
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Winter
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March 2007
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by Winter on Apr 21, 2008 8:09:43 GMT 1, Wise words, I think you are exactly right. There is a massive incentive to create demand for NW's work especially if happen to own a heap of it. As they say, if it looks to good to be true it probably is. NW is not the next Banksy and this should be taken into consideration when spending multiple thousands on a print.
Wise words, I think you are exactly right. There is a massive incentive to create demand for NW's work especially if happen to own a heap of it. As they say, if it looks to good to be true it probably is. NW is not the next Banksy and this should be taken into consideration when spending multiple thousands on a print.
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mcster
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October 2007
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by mcster on Apr 21, 2008 8:14:58 GMT 1, It amazes me the rise in price for Nick's wrok. Fortunately (?) for me I don't really get it, I didn't want any of his stuff before the price rise and that hasn't changed with his increase in popularity. Good luck to the bloke though, and all those that did see something I didn't and have managed to pick up some originals at a good price.
It amazes me the rise in price for Nick's wrok. Fortunately (?) for me I don't really get it, I didn't want any of his stuff before the price rise and that hasn't changed with his increase in popularity. Good luck to the bloke though, and all those that did see something I didn't and have managed to pick up some originals at a good price.
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by jonpud on Apr 21, 2008 8:39:32 GMT 1, I am going to be very reserved here.
Jam, you need to be very carefull regarding some of your comments which almost could be classed as 'deformation of character' I hope you have the evidence to back up some of your claims.
I also take personal exception to your remarks regarding releif over increased prices in personal portfolio's. I for one have been an admirer of much of Nick's work for many years, I am sure there are others out there who feel the same.
Whilst I stand by my comments that everyone is entitled to an opinion, and a right to express that opinion, I am left disappointed that you feel the need to cast doubt on the integrity of the 'artist' and the many genuine admirers of his work, basically because you personally don't have a taste for it! I am far from being an Adam Neate fan but I refrained from asking the same sort of questions after his sell out show, another where the prices of the prints seemed extremely high and to me, 'of little content' I agree that many have jumped on the bandwagon in the hope of an 'instant' profit, but they did the same with Adam Neate and the 'sheep' will do the same with the next 'great' artist!
The work does not have to have deep meaning in every piece produced, it's initial importance is to please the eye of the beholder, for many people Nick's work does this. The 'Vandal' series is a story which will soon come to an end, Nick has new work in the pipeline and time will tell if that new work will reinforce his current standing! I can guarentee one thing, had Banksy produced an image of a Vandal bombing the Parliament buildings or of a suited man blowing up a rat then I am guessing it would be worth Hundreds of thousands rather than a few thousand.
Let people enjoy what they enjoy, I don't see what you are attempting to gain from your post!
Nothing personal, just fed up with the negitive feelings on this forum, a forum generally dedicated to street art and supported by those who appreciate street art, yet so divided it amazes me!
I am going to be very reserved here.
Jam, you need to be very carefull regarding some of your comments which almost could be classed as 'deformation of character' I hope you have the evidence to back up some of your claims.
I also take personal exception to your remarks regarding releif over increased prices in personal portfolio's. I for one have been an admirer of much of Nick's work for many years, I am sure there are others out there who feel the same.
Whilst I stand by my comments that everyone is entitled to an opinion, and a right to express that opinion, I am left disappointed that you feel the need to cast doubt on the integrity of the 'artist' and the many genuine admirers of his work, basically because you personally don't have a taste for it! I am far from being an Adam Neate fan but I refrained from asking the same sort of questions after his sell out show, another where the prices of the prints seemed extremely high and to me, 'of little content' I agree that many have jumped on the bandwagon in the hope of an 'instant' profit, but they did the same with Adam Neate and the 'sheep' will do the same with the next 'great' artist!
The work does not have to have deep meaning in every piece produced, it's initial importance is to please the eye of the beholder, for many people Nick's work does this. The 'Vandal' series is a story which will soon come to an end, Nick has new work in the pipeline and time will tell if that new work will reinforce his current standing! I can guarentee one thing, had Banksy produced an image of a Vandal bombing the Parliament buildings or of a suited man blowing up a rat then I am guessing it would be worth Hundreds of thousands rather than a few thousand.
Let people enjoy what they enjoy, I don't see what you are attempting to gain from your post!
Nothing personal, just fed up with the negitive feelings on this forum, a forum generally dedicated to street art and supported by those who appreciate street art, yet so divided it amazes me!
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robinbanks
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,319
๐๐ป 2
October 2007
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by robinbanks on Apr 21, 2008 8:44:53 GMT 1, How many more of these negative threads about Nick Walker and his work do we have to endure?
It's getting a bit tiresome now. You talk of the hype and people ramping up prices but surely the purpose of these threads is to do the opposite - a hype antidote if you will, and in that case how is it any better?
If you don't like it, fine. But why do you feel it is your duty to impress your damning negativity on to others?
You also make it sound like NW's work wasn't worth the paper it was printed on pre-Bonhams - but all Bonhams did was act as an accelerant - and if you actually bothered to back up any of your claims with fact you would have realised that it was the birth of the TMA series and the Vandal figure that caused the mass sea change in popular opinion - not a one-off auction.
TMA Bristol, and more so London were steadily commanding higher and higher prices on eBay because they are truly wonderful, desirable images with huge cross-over appeal to the mainstream. It's true that many people have jumped on the bandwagon since the Bonhams results and prices have grown at an unbelievable rate, but many of the BIN prices people are asking for, IMO Nick's poorer work, aren't being achieved anyway.
In time I'm certain things will settle, but I fully expect demand (and with it prices) for the TMA series to grow. This isn't hype, just my reasonably well-informed, honest opinion of what I think will happen.
If you don't like Nick's work that's fine - I actually happen to think that some Banksy stuff is really shoddy (MQ immediately springs to mind) - but we don't need 17 different threads to be open at once with a pile of self-important rants on the same subject.
I'm pretty sure that the age old chesnut, "If you don't like it, don't buy it" should suffice when it comes to imparting advice on buying art to anyone.
How many more of these negative threads about Nick Walker and his work do we have to endure?
It's getting a bit tiresome now. You talk of the hype and people ramping up prices but surely the purpose of these threads is to do the opposite - a hype antidote if you will, and in that case how is it any better?
If you don't like it, fine. But why do you feel it is your duty to impress your damning negativity on to others?
You also make it sound like NW's work wasn't worth the paper it was printed on pre-Bonhams - but all Bonhams did was act as an accelerant - and if you actually bothered to back up any of your claims with fact you would have realised that it was the birth of the TMA series and the Vandal figure that caused the mass sea change in popular opinion - not a one-off auction.
TMA Bristol, and more so London were steadily commanding higher and higher prices on eBay because they are truly wonderful, desirable images with huge cross-over appeal to the mainstream. It's true that many people have jumped on the bandwagon since the Bonhams results and prices have grown at an unbelievable rate, but many of the BIN prices people are asking for, IMO Nick's poorer work, aren't being achieved anyway.
In time I'm certain things will settle, but I fully expect demand (and with it prices) for the TMA series to grow. This isn't hype, just my reasonably well-informed, honest opinion of what I think will happen.
If you don't like Nick's work that's fine - I actually happen to think that some Banksy stuff is really shoddy (MQ immediately springs to mind) - but we don't need 17 different threads to be open at once with a pile of self-important rants on the same subject.
I'm pretty sure that the age old chesnut, "If you don't like it, don't buy it" should suffice when it comes to imparting advice on buying art to anyone.
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by mcnuts on Apr 21, 2008 8:58:48 GMT 1, jam, you have the working of a good economics paper there! I dont understand why people are giving him such a hard time, seems a well thought out, opinionated post, sure you donโt have to agree, thatโs the beauty. I say bookmark this thread and call it up in about 8-10months time and see what happens! 
PS photobank did have a great post, is one of the most knowledgeable members on any forum and itโs a shame and a disservice to all that he is banned from here
jam, you have the working of a good economics paper there! I dont understand why people are giving him such a hard time, seems a well thought out, opinionated post, sure you donโt have to agree, thatโs the beauty. I say bookmark this thread and call it up in about 8-10months time and see what happens! PS photobank did have a great post, is one of the most knowledgeable members on any forum and itโs a shame and a disservice to all that he is banned from here |
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by jonpud on Apr 21, 2008 9:10:49 GMT 1, jam, you have the working of a good economics paper there! I dont understand why people are giving him such a hard time, seems a well thought out, opinionated post, sure you donโt have to agree, thatโs the beauty. I say bookmark this thread and call it up in about 8-10months time and see what happens! PS photobank did have a great post, is one of the most knowledgeable members on any forum and itโs a shame and a disservice to all that he is banned from here
It's not about agreeing or disagreeing McNuts, it's just 'is the post really necessary'?
Too much negativity when we are all here fr the same reason, and to be honest too many threads discussing Nick Walker! Do we really need another?! 
jam, you have the working of a good economics paper there! I dont understand why people are giving him such a hard time, seems a well thought out, opinionated post, sure you donโt have to agree, thatโs the beauty. I say bookmark this thread and call it up in about 8-10months time and see what happens! PS photobank did have a great post, is one of the most knowledgeable members on any forum and itโs a shame and a disservice to all that he is banned from here It's not about agreeing or disagreeing McNuts, it's just 'is the post really necessary'? Too much negativity when we are all here fr the same reason, and to be honest too many threads discussing Nick Walker! Do we really need another?! |
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sandchicken
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 47
๐๐ป 0
March 2008
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by sandchicken on Apr 21, 2008 9:25:47 GMT 1, Hi, This isn't really directly related to this topic but I didn't want to start a whole new thread so here it goes.
I have just started regularly visiting this message board to get the latest street art info, and am kinda confused by how its set up. The individual artist's boards seem to not be used too often, except for this one, so is there a reason there are so many of them? Wouldn't it make more sense to just have one more general 'street art' message board, that concentrates all the activity, because it seems that is what this 'Banksy' board is right now. Maybe I am just missing something because I am new here.
On Nick Walker's recent surge, I for one can say I am glad he has gotten more popular, because otherwise I never would have heard of him, and I find I do enjoy his most recent work.
Hi, This isn't really directly related to this topic but I didn't want to start a whole new thread so here it goes.
I have just started regularly visiting this message board to get the latest street art info, and am kinda confused by how its set up. The individual artist's boards seem to not be used too often, except for this one, so is there a reason there are so many of them? Wouldn't it make more sense to just have one more general 'street art' message board, that concentrates all the activity, because it seems that is what this 'Banksy' board is right now. Maybe I am just missing something because I am new here.
On Nick Walker's recent surge, I for one can say I am glad he has gotten more popular, because otherwise I never would have heard of him, and I find I do enjoy his most recent work.
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by jonpud on Apr 21, 2008 9:40:45 GMT 1, Hi, This isn't really directly related to this topic but I didn't want to start a whole new thread so here it goes. I have just started regularly visiting this message board to get the latest street art info, and am kinda confused by how its set up. The individual artist's boards seem to not be used too often, except for this one, so is there a reason there are so many of them? Wouldn't it make more sense to just have one more general 'street art' message board, that concentrates all the activity, because it seems that is what this 'Banksy' board is right now. Maybe I am just missing something because I am new here. On Nick Walker's recent surge, I for one can say I am glad he has gotten more popular, because otherwise I never would have heard of him, and I find I do enjoy his most recent work.
Welcome to the forum, agree with your post, but all you are asking for is a title change, in theory the name 'Banksy' pulls everyone in, the admirers, the followers the lurkers, flippers and sheep! There isn't enough 'Banksy' activity to keep the forum so well populated and so every artist get's talked about on here to fill the gaps between new street pieces appearing, stunts and print releases!
Just the way it works mate, no need to change anything IMO!
Hi, This isn't really directly related to this topic but I didn't want to start a whole new thread so here it goes. I have just started regularly visiting this message board to get the latest street art info, and am kinda confused by how its set up. The individual artist's boards seem to not be used too often, except for this one, so is there a reason there are so many of them? Wouldn't it make more sense to just have one more general 'street art' message board, that concentrates all the activity, because it seems that is what this 'Banksy' board is right now. Maybe I am just missing something because I am new here. On Nick Walker's recent surge, I for one can say I am glad he has gotten more popular, because otherwise I never would have heard of him, and I find I do enjoy his most recent work. Welcome to the forum, agree with your post, but all you are asking for is a title change, in theory the name 'Banksy' pulls everyone in, the admirers, the followers the lurkers, flippers and sheep! There isn't enough 'Banksy' activity to keep the forum so well populated and so every artist get's talked about on here to fill the gaps between new street pieces appearing, stunts and print releases! Just the way it works mate, no need to change anything IMO! |
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guest2
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 2,471
๐๐ป 1
December 2006
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by guest2 on Apr 21, 2008 9:48:47 GMT 1, If you don't like Nick Walker thats one thing but it wasn't too long ago that you could pick and choose your faile prints, the 1st set of neate prints never sold out, the micallef eye storm prints to a while to sell out etc etc etc.
I don't put Nicks success down to one auction result and I honestly don't think it was manipulated although of course this does go on. At that auction many artists achieved higher prices than ever before. Walker has been painting for ever and working hard and exhibiting all round the world and sometimes, when you put this much hard work in and a combination of things happen at the same time - bonhams auction result, the fact that the mainstream media hit on to him hard, combined with his carmichael LA show and I even think Banksy smashing LA at the same time was a factor, his latest body of work that is no doubt extremely popular - I just say it's Nick walkers time.
Also, the Bonhams auction has brought fresh blood into this whole scene and those people have been immediately attracted to Walkers work. Alot of his work at the LA show stayed in LA, dozens of collectors from the states flew over for the london show, he has alot of Japanese interest, the media def love him, probably becuase he's accessible and a nice guy and lets not forget Jam, you're trying to sell an Adam Neate print edition of 100 for ยฃ1250 - you could have bought a nick walker original for that. Is his prices way too high? I feel not.
Nick walker is here to stay, if you don't like him, thats fine but there are obviously plenty that do.
Don't be fed up, it's the butterfly effect !
If you don't like Nick Walker thats one thing but it wasn't too long ago that you could pick and choose your faile prints, the 1st set of neate prints never sold out, the micallef eye storm prints to a while to sell out etc etc etc.
I don't put Nicks success down to one auction result and I honestly don't think it was manipulated although of course this does go on. At that auction many artists achieved higher prices than ever before. Walker has been painting for ever and working hard and exhibiting all round the world and sometimes, when you put this much hard work in and a combination of things happen at the same time - bonhams auction result, the fact that the mainstream media hit on to him hard, combined with his carmichael LA show and I even think Banksy smashing LA at the same time was a factor, his latest body of work that is no doubt extremely popular - I just say it's Nick walkers time.
Also, the Bonhams auction has brought fresh blood into this whole scene and those people have been immediately attracted to Walkers work. Alot of his work at the LA show stayed in LA, dozens of collectors from the states flew over for the london show, he has alot of Japanese interest, the media def love him, probably becuase he's accessible and a nice guy and lets not forget Jam, you're trying to sell an Adam Neate print edition of 100 for ยฃ1250 - you could have bought a nick walker original for that. Is his prices way too high? I feel not.
Nick walker is here to stay, if you don't like him, thats fine but there are obviously plenty that do.
Don't be fed up, it's the butterfly effect !
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by carlito on Apr 21, 2008 9:52:49 GMT 1, yawnnnnn ... rightttt.... it's simple really an auction had a huge unexpected result suddenly evey available bit of NW print was hoovered up and sold on Ebay....
the TMA series WAS already popular prior to this auction, the original London print was already starting to command high prices...Nick's Vandal is a much more populist (?) image than his previous stuff (altho I have a soft spot for the Ghetto Ghost work).
It goes without saying that all the new work has seen a high percentage of ppl purchase with no love for his work....just look at Ebay at present...this doesn't stop it from being worthwhile or good work, just profitable to those who want a quick buck.
This lil corner of the art market has been like this for a good long while - this is nothing new - so anyone who knows anything about this lil scene can see this - lets talk about the merits of the work and conclude it's sad so many ppl with no interest have got involved in this area - if manipulation has occurred I'm sure in time it will right itself
yawnnnnn ... rightttt.... it's simple really an auction had a huge unexpected result suddenly evey available bit of NW print was hoovered up and sold on Ebay....
the TMA series WAS already popular prior to this auction, the original London print was already starting to command high prices...Nick's Vandal is a much more populist (?) image than his previous stuff (altho I have a soft spot for the Ghetto Ghost work).
It goes without saying that all the new work has seen a high percentage of ppl purchase with no love for his work....just look at Ebay at present...this doesn't stop it from being worthwhile or good work, just profitable to those who want a quick buck.
This lil corner of the art market has been like this for a good long while - this is nothing new - so anyone who knows anything about this lil scene can see this - lets talk about the merits of the work and conclude it's sad so many ppl with no interest have got involved in this area - if manipulation has occurred I'm sure in time it will right itself
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by snakes on Apr 21, 2008 9:58:26 GMT 1, good call Frankie and lets all not forget the D'FACE phenomenon either that came out of Bonhams!
good call Frankie and lets all not forget the D'FACE phenomenon either that came out of Bonhams!
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pezlow
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 5,388
๐๐ป 254
January 2007
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by pezlow on Apr 21, 2008 10:03:16 GMT 1, For me it is a combination of a few things. The vandal series is without doubt Nick's best work. Far better than most of the stuff he was producing a year ago. TMA bristol and TMA London (and indeed Moona Lisa) sold out pretty quickly long before bonhams.
But undoubtedly a lot is to do with hype and rampant speculation. ยฃ450 for a print edition of 150 seems very high to me, there is little doubt that a lot of people who buy it will be flipping it. It's also about desireability though. The quick sell outs make people want something more. The psychology behind it is quite interesting. The need to have something that is considered highly desirable etc etc.
To my mind there is much better art out there, but it doesn't sell out immediately and therefore doesn't have the same desirability.
I think Walker is a very good business man (or maybe his manager is). His prices have always been high, IMHO. The TMA canvasses were on his site last year for ยฃ3k edition of 10 or something like that. Good luck to nick - he seems a nice guy.
For me it is a combination of a few things. The vandal series is without doubt Nick's best work. Far better than most of the stuff he was producing a year ago. TMA bristol and TMA London (and indeed Moona Lisa) sold out pretty quickly long before bonhams.
But undoubtedly a lot is to do with hype and rampant speculation. ยฃ450 for a print edition of 150 seems very high to me, there is little doubt that a lot of people who buy it will be flipping it. It's also about desireability though. The quick sell outs make people want something more. The psychology behind it is quite interesting. The need to have something that is considered highly desirable etc etc.
To my mind there is much better art out there, but it doesn't sell out immediately and therefore doesn't have the same desirability.
I think Walker is a very good business man (or maybe his manager is). His prices have always been high, IMHO. The TMA canvasses were on his site last year for ยฃ3k edition of 10 or something like that. Good luck to nick - he seems a nice guy.
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by Danger Mouse on Apr 21, 2008 10:44:55 GMT 1, The reason why a number of these artists become so popular over night is because their work is admired by a small to medium number of members of this forum, but then followed by a large number of members of this forum when a few high profile members rate the artist. I like a number of Nick Walkers prints, especially London TMA, but is amusing to watch some of the sheep/leminings/profitiers jump on the band wagon once a record auction sale comes in and start buying up all the prints that have been unpopular for the past year or two. I can't blame people trying to make a bit of money, but I think people have to realise that when buying a print they like - is it really worth that much or is just because of a 'possible' hype bubble surrounding the artist they are currently priced this way. Only time will tell...
The reason why a number of these artists become so popular over night is because their work is admired by a small to medium number of members of this forum, but then followed by a large number of members of this forum when a few high profile members rate the artist. I like a number of Nick Walkers prints, especially London TMA, but is amusing to watch some of the sheep/leminings/profitiers jump on the band wagon once a record auction sale comes in and start buying up all the prints that have been unpopular for the past year or two. I can't blame people trying to make a bit of money, but I think people have to realise that when buying a print they like - is it really worth that much or is just because of a 'possible' hype bubble surrounding the artist they are currently priced this way. Only time will tell...
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spencerlee
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 853
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May 2006
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by spencerlee on Apr 21, 2008 10:54:21 GMT 1, Spot on Pez. As for people buying it 'will be flipping it'...you can remove the future tense as there are already users on this forum doing just that.
It's also true that sometimes as something increases in value, demand and desirability increase too, this is basic economics.
I quite liked the Vandal Airways, but for that money I can get an original I love from someone much smaller (without me giving a shit about 'investement').....so as the cliche goes, it's a no brainer.
Spot on Pez. As for people buying it 'will be flipping it'...you can remove the future tense as there are already users on this forum doing just that. It's also true that sometimes as something increases in value, demand and desirability increase too, this is basic economics. I quite liked the Vandal Airways, but for that money I can get an original I love from someone much smaller (without me giving a shit about 'investement').....so as the cliche goes, it's a no brainer. |
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funyoung
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,040
๐๐ป 20
February 2008
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Nick Walker Phenomenon, by funyoung on Apr 21, 2008 11:18:09 GMT 1, After a bit of objective fact:
How much were the Moona Lisa selling for before Bonhams? A massive canvas.
The Bonhams TMA London was an Atists Proof. It beat a presale estimate of 400-600 and sold for approx ยฃ4500. Ten times estimate. But on ebay you couldn't pick up a TMA London (edition 100) for under approx ยฃ1500 in the couple of weeks Pre-Bonhams. I know, I tried.
The TMA thus went for ten times an estimate that was very very very low (probably beacuse the auctioneer didn't know how well it would sell) for even the 'standard' TMA. And we know some people attach more 'value' to AP's.
Was the same true for the Moona?
After a bit of objective fact:
How much were the Moona Lisa selling for before Bonhams? A massive canvas.
The Bonhams TMA London was an Atists Proof. It beat a presale estimate of 400-600 and sold for approx ยฃ4500. Ten times estimate. But on ebay you couldn't pick up a TMA London (edition 100) for under approx ยฃ1500 in the couple of weeks Pre-Bonhams. I know, I tried.
The TMA thus went for ten times an estimate that was very very very low (probably beacuse the auctioneer didn't know how well it would sell) for even the 'standard' TMA. And we know some people attach more 'value' to AP's.
Was the same true for the Moona?
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