Mike Marcus
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by Mike Marcus on Jan 14, 2009 13:02:44 GMT 1, I apologise that this is off topic but I believe that this post contains information which many of the forum would wish to be informed about. This is an issue which i can relate with to an uncomfortable degree, here is a testimonial by an Israeli anti-occupation peace demonstrator which deserves to be circulated widely:
A lefty in Israel
Please allow me to steal a few minutes of your time, and share my feelings.
In the last few days, a small group has been demonstrating in the entrance of an Air Force base in Tel Aviv. The reason we stand there is that this is the place most air force fighters use to fly to their bases around Israel.
We hold signs calling on them to refuse orders to bomb civilians and children. This is one of many demonstrations against the war held by Israelis and taking place on a daily basis.
This very quiet vigil provokes very strong feelings among passers-by, the military, and the fire brigade across the street. The fire brigade, even though they are not allowed to express political opinions while on duty, threw eggs at us and, when we didn't move, brought forward their fire engines, with cranes and tried to wash us away.
Since I happened to be on the edge of the vigil, they managed to use one hose to isolate me, and the other to get me soaked wet. When they decided I can't get any wetter, they kept only the hose they used to separate me from the group, and came together, all in uniform, with their commanding officer, to rip my sign, and to tell me again and again, that I need to get inside the station and (my apologies) give them all head (oral sex).
The under-cover police were there. We kept calling the police asking them to send someone, and they did nothing.
We, at the more extreme left in Israel, always knew that we are, for some, fair game. That we, as they put it so nicely, "should be killed even before the Hammas". Violence was always part of the response to our activities, but violence by the fire brigades, with the police refusing to act, is a new escalation.
We will continue our demonstrations, and we truly believe in what we do. But at the same time, we know that we are not effective. We are not effective because the media refuses to cover us.
The media in Israel refuses to cover us because it would harm the soldiers' morale, and because, at times of war, we put democracy on hold and our "brave" media becomes drafted media.
But what about the media outside Israel? After all, they are all so interested in Israel. Why don't they ever show us? Is it because it is too hard to show that not all is just black and white? Is it because it might not go well with the quite fair anti-Israel motions?
I know. My feelings, my disappointment, my fear, are nothing in comparison to the fear of the people, the families and the children in Gaza. They are also nothing in comparison to the people living in Sderot and in the south of Israel.
But today, I am afraid.
In my country, I'm a traitor. Fair game. But the minute I leave Israel, I'm an Israeli. Not a lefty. An Israeli, an occupier, and again โ fair game.
And my last point is that there can be a million demonstrations around the world against Israel. That won't make Israel listen. But a million demonstrations for Peace and full coverage of what we do here in Israel will keep us safer, and might make a difference.
Please, if you know reporters, if you have connections, ask media people to start showing Israeli opposition to the war. It is time our voice is heard.
If you demonstrate, please do it in a way that will make a difference. Not just anti-Israel, but with signs calling for a cease fire and the acceptance of UN resolution 1860 by both sides.
Thank you for listening.
Peace,
Sharon
Please circulate this mail if appropriate.
--
Sharon Dolev
Mobile: 0528-480543
Home: 04-6360625
Fax: 04-6288625
sharon.dolev@gmail.com
I apologise that this is off topic but I believe that this post contains information which many of the forum would wish to be informed about. This is an issue which i can relate with to an uncomfortable degree, here is a testimonial by an Israeli anti-occupation peace demonstrator which deserves to be circulated widely:A lefty in Israel
Please allow me to steal a few minutes of your time, and share my feelings.
In the last few days, a small group has been demonstrating in the entrance of an Air Force base in Tel Aviv. The reason we stand there is that this is the place most air force fighters use to fly to their bases around Israel.
We hold signs calling on them to refuse orders to bomb civilians and children. This is one of many demonstrations against the war held by Israelis and taking place on a daily basis.
This very quiet vigil provokes very strong feelings among passers-by, the military, and the fire brigade across the street. The fire brigade, even though they are not allowed to express political opinions while on duty, threw eggs at us and, when we didn't move, brought forward their fire engines, with cranes and tried to wash us away.
Since I happened to be on the edge of the vigil, they managed to use one hose to isolate me, and the other to get me soaked wet. When they decided I can't get any wetter, they kept only the hose they used to separate me from the group, and came together, all in uniform, with their commanding officer, to rip my sign, and to tell me again and again, that I need to get inside the station and (my apologies) give them all head (oral sex).
The under-cover police were there. We kept calling the police asking them to send someone, and they did nothing.
We, at the more extreme left in Israel, always knew that we are, for some, fair game. That we, as they put it so nicely, "should be killed even before the Hammas". Violence was always part of the response to our activities, but violence by the fire brigades, with the police refusing to act, is a new escalation.
We will continue our demonstrations, and we truly believe in what we do. But at the same time, we know that we are not effective. We are not effective because the media refuses to cover us.
The media in Israel refuses to cover us because it would harm the soldiers' morale, and because, at times of war, we put democracy on hold and our "brave" media becomes drafted media.
But what about the media outside Israel? After all, they are all so interested in Israel. Why don't they ever show us? Is it because it is too hard to show that not all is just black and white? Is it because it might not go well with the quite fair anti-Israel motions?
I know. My feelings, my disappointment, my fear, are nothing in comparison to the fear of the people, the families and the children in Gaza. They are also nothing in comparison to the people living in Sderot and in the south of Israel.
But today, I am afraid.
In my country, I'm a traitor. Fair game. But the minute I leave Israel, I'm an Israeli. Not a lefty. An Israeli, an occupier, and again โ fair game.
And my last point is that there can be a million demonstrations around the world against Israel. That won't make Israel listen. But a million demonstrations for Peace and full coverage of what we do here in Israel will keep us safer, and might make a difference.
Please, if you know reporters, if you have connections, ask media people to start showing Israeli opposition to the war. It is time our voice is heard.
If you demonstrate, please do it in a way that will make a difference. Not just anti-Israel, but with signs calling for a cease fire and the acceptance of UN resolution 1860 by both sides.
Thank you for listening.
Peace,
Sharon
Please circulate this mail if appropriate.
--
Sharon Dolev
Mobile: 0528-480543
Home: 04-6360625
Fax: 04-6288625
sharon.dolev@gmail.com
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by dirtysanchez on Jan 14, 2009 13:14:48 GMT 1, Thanks for sharing this Mike, the media coverage here in the UK, has/is pretty poor, it shows a pro-israeli stance, as their coverage is not about the civilians, its about the Hamas the terrorist. I would suggest you email the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, who would be very interested in your story and are the main organisers of demonstrations here in the UK and even contact Al Jazeera, they have a unbiased impartial view on the War on Gaza.
Good luck and keep up the campaign - I for one support your efforts.
Thanks for sharing this Mike, the media coverage here in the UK, has/is pretty poor, it shows a pro-israeli stance, as their coverage is not about the civilians, its about the Hamas the terrorist. I would suggest you email the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, who would be very interested in your story and are the main organisers of demonstrations here in the UK and even contact Al Jazeera, they have a unbiased impartial view on the War on Gaza.
Good luck and keep up the campaign - I for one support your efforts.
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Mike Marcus
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by Mike Marcus on Jan 14, 2009 13:19:49 GMT 1, It might not have been immediately obvious. I am not Sharon (I am Mike). I was reposting Sharon's email here on the board. I am sure that she would welcome your comments emailed to her though.
FYI, we are pretty well connected to activist groups in Palestine and the UK. Its the media who insist on an overly black and white, spoonfed style of reporting that needs to be convinced.
Mike
It might not have been immediately obvious. I am not Sharon (I am Mike). I was reposting Sharon's email here on the board. I am sure that she would welcome your comments emailed to her though.
FYI, we are pretty well connected to activist groups in Palestine and the UK. Its the media who insist on an overly black and white, spoonfed style of reporting that needs to be convinced.
Mike
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Mike Marcus
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by Mike Marcus on Jan 14, 2009 13:53:26 GMT 1, I'm not surprised in the slightest. However I do think its time for people to leverage the internet as a democratic method of disseminating important information and that's what I am doing.
I'm not surprised in the slightest. However I do think its time for people to leverage the internet as a democratic method of disseminating important information and that's what I am doing.
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by dirtysanchez on Jan 14, 2009 14:17:32 GMT 1, to be honest, yes I am, because in todays worlds where you cannot hide the truth, getting information to the masses is much easier, I am surprised and extremely disappointed by this lack of interest and coverage - so stories shows how cowardice and biased these news channels and the biggest out of the lot is the BBC.
I have forwarded this story on to contacts and others I know who work in broadcasting,
Thanks Mike for bringing it to our attention
to be honest, yes I am, because in todays worlds where you cannot hide the truth, getting information to the masses is much easier, I am surprised and extremely disappointed by this lack of interest and coverage - so stories shows how cowardice and biased these news channels and the biggest out of the lot is the BBC.
I have forwarded this story on to contacts and others I know who work in broadcasting,
Thanks Mike for bringing it to our attention
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Winter
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by Winter on Jan 14, 2009 14:18:49 GMT 1, Thanks for sharing this Mike, the media coverage here in the UK, has/is pretty poor, it shows a pro-israeli stance, as their coverage is not about the civilians, its about the Hamas the terrorist. I would suggest you email the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, who would be very interested in your story and are the main organisers of demonstrations here in the UK and even contact Al Jazeera, they have a unbiased impartial view on the War on Gaza. Good luck and keep up the campaign - I for one support your efforts. I have to say I think British media is definitely not pro Israel. Every time I switch on my TV I see images of civillians (and lots of children) injured by the Israeli army - I actually believe the majority of British media is anti- Israel.
Thanks for sharing this Mike, the media coverage here in the UK, has/is pretty poor, it shows a pro-israeli stance, as their coverage is not about the civilians, its about the Hamas the terrorist. I would suggest you email the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, who would be very interested in your story and are the main organisers of demonstrations here in the UK and even contact Al Jazeera, they have a unbiased impartial view on the War on Gaza. Good luck and keep up the campaign - I for one support your efforts. I have to say I think British media is definitely not pro Israel. Every time I switch on my TV I see images of civillians (and lots of children) injured by the Israeli army - I actually believe the majority of British media is anti- Israel. |
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Mike Marcus
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by Mike Marcus on Jan 14, 2009 14:24:44 GMT 1, The media show lots of children being injusred because there are lots of children being injured. At least they are doing that right.
In my opinion (and I believe that holds weight seeing as I am an Israeli citizen) everybody should be anti-Israel. The same as they should be anti-China, anti-Mugabe and anti-junta in Berma
The media show lots of children being injusred because there are lots of children being injured. At least they are doing that right.
In my opinion (and I believe that holds weight seeing as I am an Israeli citizen) everybody should be anti-Israel. The same as they should be anti-China, anti-Mugabe and anti-junta in Berma
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by dirtysanchez on Jan 14, 2009 14:27:44 GMT 1, Thanks for sharing this Mike, the media coverage here in the UK, has/is pretty poor, it shows a pro-israeli stance, as their coverage is not about the civilians, its about the Hamas the terrorist. I would suggest you email the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, who would be very interested in your story and are the main organisers of demonstrations here in the UK and even contact Al Jazeera, they have a unbiased impartial view on the War on Gaza. Good luck and keep up the campaign - I for one support your efforts. I have to say I think British media is definitely not pro Israel. Every time I switch on my TV I see images of civillians (and lots of children) injured by the Israeli army - I actually believe the majority of British media is anti- Israel.
the day 40 civilians got murdered by Israeli tankshells at the UN school, what was the headline news on Sky? Kevin Peitersen quits as England cricket captain. The BBC and Sky always portray israel as victims, like when a bomb lands in a residential area on Sderot, killing 0, gets more coverage then the palestinian civilians killed. Also they do not sat that Hamas is the democratically elect body, rather than they are terrorist.
Internet and Aljazeera for me - unwashed unbiased news
Thanks for sharing this Mike, the media coverage here in the UK, has/is pretty poor, it shows a pro-israeli stance, as their coverage is not about the civilians, its about the Hamas the terrorist. I would suggest you email the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, who would be very interested in your story and are the main organisers of demonstrations here in the UK and even contact Al Jazeera, they have a unbiased impartial view on the War on Gaza. Good luck and keep up the campaign - I for one support your efforts. I have to say I think British media is definitely not pro Israel. Every time I switch on my TV I see images of civillians (and lots of children) injured by the Israeli army - I actually believe the majority of British media is anti- Israel. the day 40 civilians got murdered by Israeli tankshells at the UN school, what was the headline news on Sky? Kevin Peitersen quits as England cricket captain. The BBC and Sky always portray israel as victims, like when a bomb lands in a residential area on Sderot, killing 0, gets more coverage then the palestinian civilians killed. Also they do not sat that Hamas is the democratically elect body, rather than they are terrorist. Internet and Aljazeera for me - unwashed unbiased news |
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Mike Marcus
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by Mike Marcus on Jan 14, 2009 14:34:11 GMT 1, Al Jazeera is biassed in a different way. They broadcast throughout the middle east in a language called Fuskha, its the Arabic of the educated upper classes, poets and scholars.
Anybody who is being interviewed by them is by implication somebody who is comfortable speaking in Fuskha. Therefore they do not represent the opinion of the villagers, the common person in Palestine.
This is an issue that affects all Arabic language media.
Al Jazeera is biassed in a different way. They broadcast throughout the middle east in a language called Fuskha, its the Arabic of the educated upper classes, poets and scholars.
Anybody who is being interviewed by them is by implication somebody who is comfortable speaking in Fuskha. Therefore they do not represent the opinion of the villagers, the common person in Palestine.
This is an issue that affects all Arabic language media.
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by dirtysanchez on Jan 14, 2009 14:55:13 GMT 1, its in english for me Mike - and from what I have seen, I have seen them give equal airtime to both pro Israel and pro Palestinian parties. They are one of only a few news channels actually in Gaza, so they are not been spoonfed what Israel wants them to see or not.
its in english for me Mike - and from what I have seen, I have seen them give equal airtime to both pro Israel and pro Palestinian parties. They are one of only a few news channels actually in Gaza, so they are not been spoonfed what Israel wants them to see or not.
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spirit
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by spirit on Jan 14, 2009 15:13:45 GMT 1, english.aljazeera.net/
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by Daniel Silk on Jan 14, 2009 15:38:28 GMT 1, After a few more complaints.
Can I remind people to respect everyones points of view on this conflict, and that people from both sides are welcome to post their opinions. I cant act against people just because they don't agree with you, but wording thats offensive can be removed if forum staff feel it unnecessary in the point being raised in the post.
Thank you! 
After a few more complaints. Can I remind people to respect everyones points of view on this conflict, and that people from both sides are welcome to post their opinions. I cant act against people just because they don't agree with you, but wording thats offensive can be removed if forum staff feel it unnecessary in the point being raised in the post. Thank you! |
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timba82
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by timba82 on Jan 14, 2009 15:45:22 GMT 1, i have struggled to see any pro israel comments on this forum. i'm starting to think that there is a strong anti semetic undertone in this country and this forum.
the bbc & channel 4 being the worst arent helping.
this country has a real problem.
jews worldwide are really suffering because of this.
a synagogue i visited was fire bombombed last week.
this is a time where to be honest being jewish is rather scarey.
i posted a coment on a thread about the gaza war which has since been pulled by silky.
i must have been the 5th or so person to post.
above me was pro hamas and every single post below (30 or so posts) was pro hamas.
not 1 pro israel.
i dont care what anyone says on this forum to be honest....i couldnt give a toss.
i dont agree with innocent civilian deaths inflicted by the israeli military but they should have thought about the wealfare of their own people before they started sending suicide bombers and rockets over in to isreal brutaly mudering hundreds if not thousands.
did they expect israel to just sit back and let it keep happening?
i have struggled to see any pro israel comments on this forum. i'm starting to think that there is a strong anti semetic undertone in this country and this forum. the bbc & channel 4 being the worst arent helping. this country has a real problem. jews worldwide are really suffering because of this. a synagogue i visited was fire bombombed last week. this is a time where to be honest being jewish is rather scarey. i posted a coment on a thread about the gaza war which has since been pulled by silky. i must have been the 5th or so person to post. above me was pro hamas and every single post below (30 or so posts) was pro hamas. not 1 pro israel. i dont care what anyone says on this forum to be honest....i couldnt give a toss. i dont agree with innocent civilian deaths inflicted by the israeli military but they should have thought about the wealfare of their own people before they started sending suicide bombers and rockets over in to isreal brutaly mudering hundreds if not thousands. did they expect israel to just sit back and let it keep happening? |
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Mike Marcus
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by Mike Marcus on Jan 14, 2009 15:52:56 GMT 1, I'm sorry Silky. I cannot respect anybody who agrees that 3 Israeli deaths deserve 970 Palestinian ones. I guess we have to agree to disagree on that.
Timba: anti-Israel is not anti-Semitic. I am both Israeli and Jewish. go figure! I'm speaking out against my own country here.
I'm sorry Silky. I cannot respect anybody who agrees that 3 Israeli deaths deserve 970 Palestinian ones. I guess we have to agree to disagree on that.
Timba: anti-Israel is not anti-Semitic. I am both Israeli and Jewish. go figure! I'm speaking out against my own country here.
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timba82
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by timba82 on Jan 14, 2009 15:56:02 GMT 1, 3 in the last week or 2 maybe. they are getting it hard no doubt about that......
however are you saying there was no civilian or innocent lives taken prior to this war? get real mate
3 in the last week or 2 maybe. they are getting it hard no doubt about that...... however are you saying there was no civilian or innocent lives taken prior to this war? get real mate |
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Mike Marcus
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by Mike Marcus on Jan 14, 2009 16:03:19 GMT 1, I lived in tel aviv for 7 years. I was almost caught in a bomb. have sat in pubs where the windows have been shaken out for their frames by nearby explosions. All the while I witnessed an asymmetric response by Israel and our wholesale abuses to the human rights of an entire race.
One of my closest friends lives in Sdeirot. I know what its like to witness "Shachar Adom" first hand.
I lived in tel aviv for 7 years. I was almost caught in a bomb. have sat in pubs where the windows have been shaken out for their frames by nearby explosions. All the while I witnessed an asymmetric response by Israel and our wholesale abuses to the human rights of an entire race.
One of my closest friends lives in Sdeirot. I know what its like to witness "Shachar Adom" first hand.
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timba82
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by timba82 on Jan 14, 2009 16:16:55 GMT 1, its a vicious circle mike
we could keep going round and round pointing fingers.
my reason for saying what i am is because this forum seems very one sided at the moment.
people arent speaking up for Israel.....people are feeling intimidated at the moment.
and as a Jew its fucking scarey as anti semitism can gain pace and grow very easily in a situation like this.
i hope you understand.
please go through the posts and other threads.
was i to sit back?
its a vicious circle mike
we could keep going round and round pointing fingers.
my reason for saying what i am is because this forum seems very one sided at the moment.
people arent speaking up for Israel.....people are feeling intimidated at the moment.
and as a Jew its fucking scarey as anti semitism can gain pace and grow very easily in a situation like this.
i hope you understand.
please go through the posts and other threads.
was i to sit back?
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walters
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by walters on Jan 14, 2009 16:27:10 GMT 1, people arent speaking up for Israel.....people are feeling intimidated at the moment. and as a Jew its f**king scarey as anti semitism can gain pace and grow very easily in a situation like this.
 IT'S NOT ANTI-SEMITISM .
this is anti israeli government policy.the original post is about a jewish protester.please dont cry anti-semitism whenever people object to the israeli aparthaid.ffs.
people arent speaking up for Israel.....people are feeling intimidated at the moment. and as a Jew its f**king scarey as anti semitism can gain pace and grow very easily in a situation like this. IT'S NOT ANTI-SEMITISM . this is anti israeli government policy.the original post is about a jewish protester.please dont cry anti-semitism whenever people object to the israeli aparthaid.ffs. |
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Prescription Art
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by Prescription Art on Jan 14, 2009 16:27:22 GMT 1, its a vicious circle mike we could keep going round and round pointing fingers. my reason for saying what i am is because this forum seems very one sided at the moment. people arent speaking up for Israel.....people are feeling intimidated at the moment. and as a Jew its f**king scarey as anti semitism can gain pace and grow very easily in a situation like this. i hope you understand. please go through the posts and other threads. was i to sit back?
People aren't anti-semitic, and aren't anti-Israel.
People see Palestinian women, children and civilians being savagely slaughtered, and are quite understandably shocked by it.
This is not a conflict where any right minded person can 'stand up for' Israel. Your religion has nothing to do with it.
Besides, Israel has the full and unwavering support of George Bush and the neo-cons - which has given them carte blanche to do whatever the fuck they like regardless of what the UN or any other country says. What more support do they need?
its a vicious circle mike we could keep going round and round pointing fingers. my reason for saying what i am is because this forum seems very one sided at the moment. people arent speaking up for Israel.....people are feeling intimidated at the moment. and as a Jew its f**king scarey as anti semitism can gain pace and grow very easily in a situation like this. i hope you understand. please go through the posts and other threads. was i to sit back? People aren't anti-semitic, and aren't anti-Israel. People see Palestinian women, children and civilians being savagely slaughtered, and are quite understandably shocked by it. This is not a conflict where any right minded person can 'stand up for' Israel. Your religion has nothing to do with it. Besides, Israel has the full and unwavering support of George Bush and the neo-cons - which has given them carte blanche to do whatever the fuck they like regardless of what the UN or any other country says. What more support do they need? |
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Mike Marcus
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by Mike Marcus on Jan 14, 2009 16:29:19 GMT 1, the world is one sided right now. its a clear indicator that the actions of israel are simply and plainly wrong. That has nothing to do with Jew hating, it has to do with compassion for people who (again) are getting slaughtered by the thousand and frustration that the worlds establishments wont do anything to prevent it.
the world is one sided right now. its a clear indicator that the actions of israel are simply and plainly wrong. That has nothing to do with Jew hating, it has to do with compassion for people who (again) are getting slaughtered by the thousand and frustration that the worlds establishments wont do anything to prevent it.
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Mike Marcus
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by Mike Marcus on Jan 14, 2009 16:32:49 GMT 1, James, I couldnt have said it better.
As I said, I am both Jewish and israeli and I do not feel that there is a single person here who would have a problem with that. I have never picked up a gun and have always refused to vote for war. People have a problem with genocide. Why would you want to defend against that?
James, I couldnt have said it better.
As I said, I am both Jewish and israeli and I do not feel that there is a single person here who would have a problem with that. I have never picked up a gun and have always refused to vote for war. People have a problem with genocide. Why would you want to defend against that?
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daveart
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by daveart on Jan 14, 2009 16:40:32 GMT 1, Democracies - to the extent they truly exist - thrive on speaking and hearing both sides of a debate. Just as in America there are plenty of anti war demonstrations, publications, web sites, etc .. should not we almost expect or demand as much to hear from both sides of the argument from the Israelis? so this is good to see. it is healthy. Would it not also then be a travesty to assume all Palestinians believe the actions of Hamas over the years are all correct and just? sadly i do not believe they would feel safe speaking out or demonstrating openly against Hamas.
I have on various threads tried to distinguish between civilians and government leaders on both sides. obviously no one wins when civilians die. its terribly sad. This is beyond debate.
I am going to agree with timba on this one point though. post after post discusses Israel's transgressions. This is fine. On many points i agree. However, i have not seen on this forum discussion of the actions of Hamas. note.. not Palestinian civilians. Hamas. To not discuss Hamas - their role, their goals, their beliefs for the region, their goals for how they want the region to work long term, their missiles, their alleged interractions with iran and others, their dismissal of egypts help and recommendations, the expiration of the cease fire, the abuses towards their own civilians, etc would be to do great injustice to the conversation.
please - these are simply comments- i am not an expert - i am willing to read and listen to those of you that want to express your opinions. but if you start posts with name calling and insensitivity.. you lose the ability to educate and carry on the conversation. and that in its self is a huge loss. Mike Marcos - you bring a good thread to the forum .. but then fall towards ' not respecting'.. respect. always. discuss. debate and educate. you have their attention.. now go in for the logical kill. they may never agree.. but that doesn't need to lead to a lack of respect.
I hope none of you suffer personal loss from this conflict or any conflict and pray for peace world wide.
Regards.
Democracies - to the extent they truly exist - thrive on speaking and hearing both sides of a debate. Just as in America there are plenty of anti war demonstrations, publications, web sites, etc .. should not we almost expect or demand as much to hear from both sides of the argument from the Israelis? so this is good to see. it is healthy. Would it not also then be a travesty to assume all Palestinians believe the actions of Hamas over the years are all correct and just? sadly i do not believe they would feel safe speaking out or demonstrating openly against Hamas.
I have on various threads tried to distinguish between civilians and government leaders on both sides. obviously no one wins when civilians die. its terribly sad. This is beyond debate.
I am going to agree with timba on this one point though. post after post discusses Israel's transgressions. This is fine. On many points i agree. However, i have not seen on this forum discussion of the actions of Hamas. note.. not Palestinian civilians. Hamas. To not discuss Hamas - their role, their goals, their beliefs for the region, their goals for how they want the region to work long term, their missiles, their alleged interractions with iran and others, their dismissal of egypts help and recommendations, the expiration of the cease fire, the abuses towards their own civilians, etc would be to do great injustice to the conversation.
please - these are simply comments- i am not an expert - i am willing to read and listen to those of you that want to express your opinions. but if you start posts with name calling and insensitivity.. you lose the ability to educate and carry on the conversation. and that in its self is a huge loss. Mike Marcos - you bring a good thread to the forum .. but then fall towards ' not respecting'.. respect. always. discuss. debate and educate. you have their attention.. now go in for the logical kill. they may never agree.. but that doesn't need to lead to a lack of respect.
I hope none of you suffer personal loss from this conflict or any conflict and pray for peace world wide.
Regards.
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timba82
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by timba82 on Jan 14, 2009 16:40:45 GMT 1, i think they're actions are for the right reasons.....
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i think they're actions are for the right reasons.....
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timba82
Junior Member
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by timba82 on Jan 14, 2009 16:50:22 GMT 1, excellent post daveart
excellent post daveart
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Mike Marcus
Artist
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by Mike Marcus on Jan 14, 2009 16:55:49 GMT 1, have you been to sdeirot recently timba?
have you been to sdeirot recently timba?
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greeneny
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by greeneny on Jan 14, 2009 16:59:56 GMT 1, Ok Mike .. then please tell us after years ... years of firing rockets into Sderot, initially a few a day but then after the "ceasefire" which I'm sure you know was hardly a cease fire since Islamic Jihad would fire rockets and Hamas would claim they couldn't control them, but since you don't agree with what Israel did Mike and you are both a Jew and an israeli, what do you think Israel should have done after December 26 when I believe they had 80 rockets thrown at them? Instead of just condemning them and trying to make some comparison with body count which is silly considering Hamas was indeed trying for more Israeli dead to be sure, what would you have done? Nothing? Allowed it to continue until a rocket hit a school, a shopping center when the civilians did not make it into the bomb shelters?
No one seems to ever be able to get beyond condemning Israel to explaining what they would do ... how they would end the rockets and mortars being fired at civilians.
Ok Mike .. then please tell us after years ... years of firing rockets into Sderot, initially a few a day but then after the "ceasefire" which I'm sure you know was hardly a cease fire since Islamic Jihad would fire rockets and Hamas would claim they couldn't control them, but since you don't agree with what Israel did Mike and you are both a Jew and an israeli, what do you think Israel should have done after December 26 when I believe they had 80 rockets thrown at them? Instead of just condemning them and trying to make some comparison with body count which is silly considering Hamas was indeed trying for more Israeli dead to be sure, what would you have done? Nothing? Allowed it to continue until a rocket hit a school, a shopping center when the civilians did not make it into the bomb shelters?
No one seems to ever be able to get beyond condemning Israel to explaining what they would do ... how they would end the rockets and mortars being fired at civilians.
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Mike Marcus
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by Mike Marcus on Jan 14, 2009 17:16:55 GMT 1, I'm glad you asked that greeney. I think that Israel should take the following actions:
1) open borders between Egypt and Gaza, remove sea blockades and let in international aid
2) Dismantle the settler movement and assist in any future international prosecutions to members of that movement for willingly and knowingly breaking international law and by doing so, putting their co-patriots at risk.
3) Immediately stop all military occupation of the west bank and divert all military funding into grants to help Palestinian communities rebuild.
4) Start immediate talks concerned with finding a resolution to the "right of return" and east jerusalem issues.
5) Enter into talks with Syria with the intention of returning the golan heights in return for a peace treaty.
6) Seek international help in achieving these goals and stopping any marginalised militant action that might occur as a result.
oh, and while all that is being organised, dismantle the wall and retreat to the green line, thereby giving up any and all attempts at land grabbing.
I'm glad you asked that greeney. I think that Israel should take the following actions:
1) open borders between Egypt and Gaza, remove sea blockades and let in international aid
2) Dismantle the settler movement and assist in any future international prosecutions to members of that movement for willingly and knowingly breaking international law and by doing so, putting their co-patriots at risk.
3) Immediately stop all military occupation of the west bank and divert all military funding into grants to help Palestinian communities rebuild.
4) Start immediate talks concerned with finding a resolution to the "right of return" and east jerusalem issues.
5) Enter into talks with Syria with the intention of returning the golan heights in return for a peace treaty.
6) Seek international help in achieving these goals and stopping any marginalised militant action that might occur as a result.
oh, and while all that is being organised, dismantle the wall and retreat to the green line, thereby giving up any and all attempts at land grabbing.
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daveart
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February 2008
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by daveart on Jan 14, 2009 18:34:28 GMT 1, Hey Mike,
Excellent post. make up a similar list for Hamas. Run for office on this platform. I will be the first to donate to the cause!!
Hey Mike,
Excellent post. make up a similar list for Hamas. Run for office on this platform. I will be the first to donate to the cause!!
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shaunyboy
New Member
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March 2008
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[OT]Israeli violence against its own left, by shaunyboy on Jan 14, 2009 22:29:37 GMT 1, I'm glad you asked that greeney. I think that Israel should take the following actions: 1) open borders between Egypt and Gaza, remove sea blockades and let in international aid 2) Dismantle the settler movement and assist in any future international prosecutions to members of that movement for willingly and knowingly breaking international law and by doing so, putting their co-patriots at risk. 3) Immediately stop all military occupation of the west bank and divert all military funding into grants to help Palestinian communities rebuild. 4) Start immediate talks concerned with finding a resolution to the "right of return" and east jerusalem issues. 5) Enter into talks with Syria with the intention of returning the golan heights in return for a peace treaty. 6) Seek international help in achieving these goals and stopping any marginalised militant action that might occur as a result. oh, and while all that is being organised, dismantle the wall and retreat to the green line, thereby giving up any and all attempts at land grabbing.
Surely this is the post of the year so far;)
I couldn't agree more Mike. Well said and keep up the good work.
No Justice No Peace.
I'm glad you asked that greeney. I think that Israel should take the following actions: 1) open borders between Egypt and Gaza, remove sea blockades and let in international aid 2) Dismantle the settler movement and assist in any future international prosecutions to members of that movement for willingly and knowingly breaking international law and by doing so, putting their co-patriots at risk. 3) Immediately stop all military occupation of the west bank and divert all military funding into grants to help Palestinian communities rebuild. 4) Start immediate talks concerned with finding a resolution to the "right of return" and east jerusalem issues. 5) Enter into talks with Syria with the intention of returning the golan heights in return for a peace treaty. 6) Seek international help in achieving these goals and stopping any marginalised militant action that might occur as a result. oh, and while all that is being organised, dismantle the wall and retreat to the green line, thereby giving up any and all attempts at land grabbing. Surely this is the post of the year so far;) I couldn't agree more Mike. Well said and keep up the good work. No Justice No Peace. |
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IT'S NOT ANTI-SEMITISM . 
