Heavyconsumer
Junior Member
Posts • 4,974
Likes • 5
February 2008
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Denning print @RPG + chance for BANKSY ticket, by Heavyconsumer on Aug 13, 2009 14:54:17 GMT 1, I really don't see anyone saying it's wrong or criticising, it's very much more a level of concern for the effect it has on a group of Artists, who would never been classed in a same grouping as Banksy (but yes, at first he did this very thing too and still to some extent does it now)...Anyway 'I'm Out'...I wish everyone only the best
Noone's been able to explain yet in words I've understood, what the concern is, or how the artists might suffer. This "perceived value of an artist" concept seems a bit abstract to me and I'm hoping to better understand what people mean by that at some stage. Is it related to prestige, monetary value of works, perceived quality? I honestly don't get it. Any help appreciated.
I really don't see anyone saying it's wrong or criticising, it's very much more a level of concern for the effect it has on a group of Artists, who would never been classed in a same grouping as Banksy (but yes, at first he did this very thing too and still to some extent does it now)...Anyway 'I'm Out'...I wish everyone only the best Noone's been able to explain yet in words I've understood, what the concern is, or how the artists might suffer. This "perceived value of an artist" concept seems a bit abstract to me and I'm hoping to better understand what people mean by that at some stage. Is it related to prestige, monetary value of works, perceived quality? I honestly don't get it. Any help appreciated.
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graffalo
New Member
Posts • 275
Likes • 0
May 2008
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Denning print @RPG + chance for BANKSY ticket, by graffalo on Aug 13, 2009 14:55:34 GMT 1, Can anyone comment on the quality of these prints? I assume that for £25 they are not hand pulled screen prints? From what I have seen they are very good
I don't think RP state the method of production (apologies if im wrong on that) but I assume that they are digital prints?
Still, if the quality is good probably good value for £25
Can anyone comment on the quality of these prints? I assume that for £25 they are not hand pulled screen prints? From what I have seen they are very good I don't think RP state the method of production (apologies if im wrong on that) but I assume that they are digital prints? Still, if the quality is good probably good value for £25
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nex
Junior Member
Posts • 2,573
Likes • 1,819
February 2009
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Denning print @RPG + chance for BANKSY ticket, by nex on Aug 13, 2009 14:57:18 GMT 1, I really don't see anyone saying it's wrong or criticising, it's very much more a level of concern for the effect it has on a group of Artists, who would never been classed in a same grouping as Banksy (but yes, at first he did this very thing too and still to some extent does it now)...Anyway 'I'm Out'...I wish everyone only the best Noone's been able to explain yet in words I've understood, what the concern is, or how the artists might suffer. This "perceived value of an artist" concept seems a bit abstract to me and I'm hoping to better understand what people mean by that at some stage. Is it related to prestige, monetary value of works, perceived quality? I honestly don't get it. Any help appreciated.
simply put people who purchase their work in the future may now see it as worth less
I really don't see anyone saying it's wrong or criticising, it's very much more a level of concern for the effect it has on a group of Artists, who would never been classed in a same grouping as Banksy (but yes, at first he did this very thing too and still to some extent does it now)...Anyway 'I'm Out'...I wish everyone only the best Noone's been able to explain yet in words I've understood, what the concern is, or how the artists might suffer. This "perceived value of an artist" concept seems a bit abstract to me and I'm hoping to better understand what people mean by that at some stage. Is it related to prestige, monetary value of works, perceived quality? I honestly don't get it. Any help appreciated. simply put people who purchase their work in the future may now see it as worth less
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Denning print @RPG + chance for BANKSY ticket, by crazyarsemother on Aug 13, 2009 15:06:25 GMT 1, Another interesting thread. I think its naive to think that any artist agreeing to do this print has not thought about these points and its interesting to see them debated.
My motivation is to make valid work. That validity can only happen on the canvas. I am delighted that RP have faith in that work and even more delighted to have shared my work with so many people. I think people forget that many artists are their own critics and notions of failure and success have usually run their cause before the gallery have even seen the work.
If a forgotten bargain bucket awaits then it had best be a big one with loads of colour chucked all over it.
Another interesting thread. I think its naive to think that any artist agreeing to do this print has not thought about these points and its interesting to see them debated.
My motivation is to make valid work. That validity can only happen on the canvas. I am delighted that RP have faith in that work and even more delighted to have shared my work with so many people. I think people forget that many artists are their own critics and notions of failure and success have usually run their cause before the gallery have even seen the work.
If a forgotten bargain bucket awaits then it had best be a big one with loads of colour chucked all over it.
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sakyamuni
Junior Member
Posts • 2,451
Likes • 1,671
July 2009
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Denning print @RPG + chance for BANKSY ticket, by sakyamuni on Aug 13, 2009 15:11:45 GMT 1, Sometimes I think people in here focus very unnecessarily on investment value and financial upside and downside potential of purchases. If you're dropping hundreds or thousands, I respect why you'd do that, but these are £25!!! IMO they're a great opportunity for us to enjoy some high quality art on our walls at bargain prices and for a few newcomers to test the water with some affordable purchases and personally, I hope it keeps going for a while yet.
a clarification from me, i never refered to the financial value, i do enjoy sometimes to buy somehing that can gain value, but this is never the reason for buying. What made me react was that i like these cheap and nice prints, i already bought many and would enjoy to buy more in the future, it is just that one or two a week for weeks and weeks makes a lot to me, and i felt like i was missing some that i actually like but was tired to do the all thing again (receiving the code, waiting for the right time, go to paypal, wait to receive it, ...). This is why i thought a little break could be good and i would enjoy buy the new ones later, like once or twice a month. I hope this makes more sense now. Last note, on a personal view, i prefer when they release prints by less famous artist, as i see it as an opportunity to "see in flesh" something from someone i am not yet familiar with.
Sometimes I think people in here focus very unnecessarily on investment value and financial upside and downside potential of purchases. If you're dropping hundreds or thousands, I respect why you'd do that, but these are £25!!! IMO they're a great opportunity for us to enjoy some high quality art on our walls at bargain prices and for a few newcomers to test the water with some affordable purchases and personally, I hope it keeps going for a while yet. a clarification from me, i never refered to the financial value, i do enjoy sometimes to buy somehing that can gain value, but this is never the reason for buying. What made me react was that i like these cheap and nice prints, i already bought many and would enjoy to buy more in the future, it is just that one or two a week for weeks and weeks makes a lot to me, and i felt like i was missing some that i actually like but was tired to do the all thing again (receiving the code, waiting for the right time, go to paypal, wait to receive it, ...). This is why i thought a little break could be good and i would enjoy buy the new ones later, like once or twice a month. I hope this makes more sense now. Last note, on a personal view, i prefer when they release prints by less famous artist, as i see it as an opportunity to "see in flesh" something from someone i am not yet familiar with.
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Red Propeller
Art Gallery
New Member
Posts • 195
Likes • 3
July 2007
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Denning print @RPG + chance for BANKSY ticket, by Red Propeller on Aug 13, 2009 18:28:59 GMT 1, Just to let you know that we sold 165 'Spartan Woman' prints by Guy Denning and the lucky winner of the prize was Chris Nunn with print number 75 - if anyone is interested here is a thread to the info with regards this prize - if you do book it make sure it is a 'Bristol Urban Art Break' and not just an ordinary booking, double check because the site is a bit erratic.
visitbristol.co.uk/site/home/site-search-results?_postback_ctrlkey=98&search_98=urban+art+break&submit.x=24&submit.y=10
Really interesting points being raised here by the way - given us a lot to think about!
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Denning print @RPG + chance for BANKSY ticket, by justsomeyank on Aug 14, 2009 17:05:21 GMT 1, After lurking here for a while I went ahead and signed up just to reply to the thoughts in this thread. Here's my take on why Nex thinks the Crunchburger series may be doing some harm to the artists:
Galleries play a vital role in the long term future of their artists. They're not there just to push product out the door, but build a career and ensure that their customers are buying art that they not only love, but has the potential to appreciate in value over the life span (and death) of the artist. Obviously this doesn't always happen, but it's reasonable to say that there wouldn't be as many collectors as there are if there wasn't that opportunity.
In playing that crucial role in the arist-customer relationship, there are a lot of safeguards that a gallery must put in place to ensure that an artist can make a lifelong career for him/herself. One of those safeguards is obviously in authenticating and releasing new work, but also in how new work is priced and how much of it is available (ie, print runs). As I am quickly learning, the normal rules of supply and demand don't apply to the art world.
There are many instances where low prices for an artist's work actually drives away collectors, as they perceive the artist to be undesirable or not in demand. Therefore releasing many print runs with low prices may seem like a good idea in the short term, but may actually damage the long-term career of the artist, if it is done too often.
This is a very fine tightrope that galleries have to walk, and there's a reason why it's hard to stay in business. Price work too high and you price yourself out of the market. Price work too low and your artist is perceived as being 2nd-rate. For the record, I love the Crunchburger initiative and I've bought many prints from them that I never could have afforded without it, so I am very grateful. But at the same time I wonder how many collectors will get used to buying a signed Denning print for $50 and forgo buying an original for $3,000 as a result. It's probably safe to say RP is appealing to 2 different markets with this strategy without much crossover appeal, but pricing the same artist at 2 radically different price points may send mixed messages to the market.
I appreciate James Baker chiming in with his thoughts, and no doubt RP is sensitive to the concerns I pointed out. Obviously the galleries and artists know the market much better than I do, so maybe I should just shut my trap and enjoy the inexpensive wonderful prints.
After lurking here for a while I went ahead and signed up just to reply to the thoughts in this thread. Here's my take on why Nex thinks the Crunchburger series may be doing some harm to the artists:
Galleries play a vital role in the long term future of their artists. They're not there just to push product out the door, but build a career and ensure that their customers are buying art that they not only love, but has the potential to appreciate in value over the life span (and death) of the artist. Obviously this doesn't always happen, but it's reasonable to say that there wouldn't be as many collectors as there are if there wasn't that opportunity.
In playing that crucial role in the arist-customer relationship, there are a lot of safeguards that a gallery must put in place to ensure that an artist can make a lifelong career for him/herself. One of those safeguards is obviously in authenticating and releasing new work, but also in how new work is priced and how much of it is available (ie, print runs). As I am quickly learning, the normal rules of supply and demand don't apply to the art world.
There are many instances where low prices for an artist's work actually drives away collectors, as they perceive the artist to be undesirable or not in demand. Therefore releasing many print runs with low prices may seem like a good idea in the short term, but may actually damage the long-term career of the artist, if it is done too often.
This is a very fine tightrope that galleries have to walk, and there's a reason why it's hard to stay in business. Price work too high and you price yourself out of the market. Price work too low and your artist is perceived as being 2nd-rate. For the record, I love the Crunchburger initiative and I've bought many prints from them that I never could have afforded without it, so I am very grateful. But at the same time I wonder how many collectors will get used to buying a signed Denning print for $50 and forgo buying an original for $3,000 as a result. It's probably safe to say RP is appealing to 2 different markets with this strategy without much crossover appeal, but pricing the same artist at 2 radically different price points may send mixed messages to the market.
I appreciate James Baker chiming in with his thoughts, and no doubt RP is sensitive to the concerns I pointed out. Obviously the galleries and artists know the market much better than I do, so maybe I should just shut my trap and enjoy the inexpensive wonderful prints.
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Denning print @RPG + chance for BANKSY ticket, by spenie1975 on Aug 14, 2009 18:40:02 GMT 1, very good post yank. Some good,well thought out points.
very good post yank. Some good,well thought out points.
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Denning print @RPG + chance for BANKSY ticket, by lumbo on Aug 14, 2009 18:54:35 GMT 1, Some real food for thought, for all concerned, and I have to admit this thread lured me to sign up and stick my oar in too.
I really don't think this has hit Denning though, nor will it, and if anything I think it's added to his appeal; I for one was not a fan before - and never gave his art much thought - but now am a convert and have just bought the most recent Crunchburger. If I had the readies I'd buy an original in a shot, at asking price too, so I think this will really all boil down to the artists longevity and appeal, and not their involvement in what is ultimately a great promotion from RP. GD is probably at his peak, and I think it's testament to his work that he can kill it at the Carmichael, while also do something for fans who can't afford to shop in LA galleries - proving that it's not about money at all (for some artists anyway).
That's my "oar" stuck way in. Hello to one and all
Some real food for thought, for all concerned, and I have to admit this thread lured me to sign up and stick my oar in too. I really don't think this has hit Denning though, nor will it, and if anything I think it's added to his appeal; I for one was not a fan before - and never gave his art much thought - but now am a convert and have just bought the most recent Crunchburger. If I had the readies I'd buy an original in a shot, at asking price too, so I think this will really all boil down to the artists longevity and appeal, and not their involvement in what is ultimately a great promotion from RP. GD is probably at his peak, and I think it's testament to his work that he can kill it at the Carmichael, while also do something for fans who can't afford to shop in LA galleries - proving that it's not about money at all (for some artists anyway). That's my "oar" stuck way in. Hello to one and all
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kjzimm
New Member
Posts • 265
Likes • 6
June 2009
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Denning print @RPG + chance for BANKSY ticket, by kjzimm on Aug 15, 2009 5:27:11 GMT 1, I think the idea of the Crunchburger is brilliant.
It gives people access to artists that they may not be able to afford otherwise.
It also exposes people (like me) to artists they would never have known about.
Artists get to sell prints with no overstock after the sale. Which (I've been doing my homework) reduces cost of production. Giclee is a conputer generated image with varying qualities of ink available. It seems that the Crunchburger prints are of relatively good quality (I'd like to know more).
Also, should the artist gain in popularity, the Crunchburger buyers are in early at a reasonable price. We also have a limited edition dictated by demand--Banksy could even do that for the poor souls unable to obtain a print otherwise. The edition would be huge, thus reducing perceived value in the Ebay market--food for thought.
Back to the computer generated thought--if the file was a scan and manipulated (post scan), the giclees ARE the originals. Now, if that file is destroyed like a Picasso, Dali or Miro plate, they should, in time, achieve the same "status" as a Picasso "original" (assuming the artist is on the same level). I just had this argument with a gallery in San Francisco this week. The arse salesman didn't know what a giclee was, but called an edition of 150 Dali plate prints all originals. My point is...what's the difference if both originating mediums are destroyed?
RP - What is the disposition of the file used to produce the giclee prints?
I think the idea of the Crunchburger is brilliant.
It gives people access to artists that they may not be able to afford otherwise.
It also exposes people (like me) to artists they would never have known about.
Artists get to sell prints with no overstock after the sale. Which (I've been doing my homework) reduces cost of production. Giclee is a conputer generated image with varying qualities of ink available. It seems that the Crunchburger prints are of relatively good quality (I'd like to know more).
Also, should the artist gain in popularity, the Crunchburger buyers are in early at a reasonable price. We also have a limited edition dictated by demand--Banksy could even do that for the poor souls unable to obtain a print otherwise. The edition would be huge, thus reducing perceived value in the Ebay market--food for thought.
Back to the computer generated thought--if the file was a scan and manipulated (post scan), the giclees ARE the originals. Now, if that file is destroyed like a Picasso, Dali or Miro plate, they should, in time, achieve the same "status" as a Picasso "original" (assuming the artist is on the same level). I just had this argument with a gallery in San Francisco this week. The arse salesman didn't know what a giclee was, but called an edition of 150 Dali plate prints all originals. My point is...what's the difference if both originating mediums are destroyed?
RP - What is the disposition of the file used to produce the giclee prints?
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Photoxtc
Junior Member
Posts • 2,495
Likes • 189
July 2007
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Denning print @RPG + chance for BANKSY ticket, by Photoxtc on Aug 15, 2009 6:05:56 GMT 1, Doesn't look like much sold at Carmichael, maybe 4 paintings? Not a criticism (I'm grateful I have a crunchburger and love it) just an observation. You're wrong, site just wasn't updated, in fact pretty much all of the larger pieces have sold... pretty good turn out so far and the show is still going on... A show doesn't have to sell out the first night for it to be a success
Doesn't look like much sold at Carmichael, maybe 4 paintings? Not a criticism (I'm grateful I have a crunchburger and love it) just an observation. You're wrong, site just wasn't updated, in fact pretty much all of the larger pieces have sold... pretty good turn out so far and the show is still going on... A show doesn't have to sell out the first night for it to be a success
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Denning print @RPG + chance for BANKSY ticket, by lumbo on Aug 15, 2009 9:21:51 GMT 1, Some real food for thought, for all concerned, and I have to admit this thread lured me to sign up and stick my oar in too. I really don't think this has hit Denning though, nor will it, and if anything I think it's added to his appeal; I for one was not a fan before - and never gave his art much thought - but now am a convert and have just bought the most recent Crunchburger. If I had the readies I'd buy an original in a shot, at asking price too, so I think this will really all boil down to the artists longevity and appeal, and not their involvement in what is ultimately a great promotion from RP. GD is probably at his peak, and I think it's testament to his work that he can kill it at the Carmichael, while also do something for fans who can't afford to shop in LA galleries - proving that it's not about money at all (for some artists anyway). That's my "oar" stuck way in. Hello to one and all Doesn't look like much sold at Carmichael, maybe 4 paintings? Not a criticism (I'm grateful I have a crunchburger and love it) just an observation.
I don't think how much work he's sold has any reflection on success anyway - his profile has still never been higher, I think...
If an artist selling cheap prints is likely to affect his worth, how come Adam Neate is held with such high regard? He practically made a living by giving stuff away - work that people got for free and is now touted for thousands - and we all know what his stuff is worth now!
Some real food for thought, for all concerned, and I have to admit this thread lured me to sign up and stick my oar in too. I really don't think this has hit Denning though, nor will it, and if anything I think it's added to his appeal; I for one was not a fan before - and never gave his art much thought - but now am a convert and have just bought the most recent Crunchburger. If I had the readies I'd buy an original in a shot, at asking price too, so I think this will really all boil down to the artists longevity and appeal, and not their involvement in what is ultimately a great promotion from RP. GD is probably at his peak, and I think it's testament to his work that he can kill it at the Carmichael, while also do something for fans who can't afford to shop in LA galleries - proving that it's not about money at all (for some artists anyway). That's my "oar" stuck way in. Hello to one and all Doesn't look like much sold at Carmichael, maybe 4 paintings? Not a criticism (I'm grateful I have a crunchburger and love it) just an observation. I don't think how much work he's sold has any reflection on success anyway - his profile has still never been higher, I think... If an artist selling cheap prints is likely to affect his worth, how come Adam Neate is held with such high regard? He practically made a living by giving stuff away - work that people got for free and is now touted for thousands - and we all know what his stuff is worth now!
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redfred
Junior Member
Posts • 1,293
Likes • 53
May 2006
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Denning print @RPG + chance for BANKSY ticket, by redfred on Aug 15, 2009 10:38:08 GMT 1, For me the beauty of Dennings work is in the way he manipulates oil on canvas, there is no way that virtually giving away small gicelee prints will have a detremental effect on his popularity. I think RP should be congratulated for bringing his genius down to an affordable price, albeit there is no way you can truly appreciate how good he is just by looking at these prints, they obviousely appreciate that not everybody can afford an original work and have done their best to bring Denning to a wider audience which in my book has got to be a good thing!
For me the beauty of Dennings work is in the way he manipulates oil on canvas, there is no way that virtually giving away small gicelee prints will have a detremental effect on his popularity. I think RP should be congratulated for bringing his genius down to an affordable price, albeit there is no way you can truly appreciate how good he is just by looking at these prints, they obviousely appreciate that not everybody can afford an original work and have done their best to bring Denning to a wider audience which in my book has got to be a good thing!
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