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January 1970
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The US Economy, by Deleted on Nov 28, 2007 0:11:58 GMT 1, This is off-topic but I think relevant to the art industry. I can't help but think that we've yet to see the full impact of the sub-prime mortgage debacle here in the US. The recent news about a decent black friday by retailers is keeping the markets in the black, but, I wonder how soon after Xmas spending when Americans have tapped out their credit cards we'll see the early signs of a recession? My personal observation is that Americans are still over spending on credit. Declaring personal bankruptcy maybe the next financial decision for many people in the next few months. If that happens, we're gonna have bigger problems than trying to F5 for a print! Thoughts?
P.S. This isn't a commentary on artwork collection values, but, I think that i the event we hit a recession, I think most art (excluding the top 5% ofknown artists) will see a big decline in values. i'm curios why people think there will be a recovery independent in the spring. Especially, as it may be going the opposite direction of the stock markets.
This is off-topic but I think relevant to the art industry. I can't help but think that we've yet to see the full impact of the sub-prime mortgage debacle here in the US. The recent news about a decent black friday by retailers is keeping the markets in the black, but, I wonder how soon after Xmas spending when Americans have tapped out their credit cards we'll see the early signs of a recession? My personal observation is that Americans are still over spending on credit. Declaring personal bankruptcy maybe the next financial decision for many people in the next few months. If that happens, we're gonna have bigger problems than trying to F5 for a print! Thoughts?
P.S. This isn't a commentary on artwork collection values, but, I think that i the event we hit a recession, I think most art (excluding the top 5% ofknown artists) will see a big decline in values. i'm curios why people think there will be a recovery independent in the spring. Especially, as it may be going the opposite direction of the stock markets.
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The US Economy, by dave313perry on Nov 28, 2007 0:22:26 GMT 1, I dont know alot about it to be honest and cant make a real measured judgement as there are so many influences and the art market that i dont follow or have an interest in, but from what iv heard - the American art market is looking like it is going to continue to suffer for the near future, the age old thing of art being a pleasure and not a neccessity, and when finances go tits up its the first to go, obvious i know...
However our small scene here is vastly influenced by brittish collectors - which incidently is becoming your everyday Joe Bloggs who has more money than ever to flap aroundat art - so until your Economy drags ours down (dont take that too literally) this group of followers of modern/street art shall continue to strive! and it seems that a few are in danger of breaking into the bigtime IMO - a few of our more talked about artists seem to be getting recognised more and more on a daily basis and getting more and more publicity from the stuck up hedge fund type...is this a good thing??? if you have everything you would like to own im guessing yes but if not then your chance may have passed...alternatively wait for a crash...if there is one! if not we shall start again and invest in up and coming talent - like Banksy back in the day!
feel free to rip that to shreads as i know alot of you are more experienced and knowledgable about such topics! just my tuppence
I dont know alot about it to be honest and cant make a real measured judgement as there are so many influences and the art market that i dont follow or have an interest in, but from what iv heard - the American art market is looking like it is going to continue to suffer for the near future, the age old thing of art being a pleasure and not a neccessity, and when finances go tits up its the first to go, obvious i know...
However our small scene here is vastly influenced by brittish collectors - which incidently is becoming your everyday Joe Bloggs who has more money than ever to flap aroundat art - so until your Economy drags ours down (dont take that too literally) this group of followers of modern/street art shall continue to strive! and it seems that a few are in danger of breaking into the bigtime IMO - a few of our more talked about artists seem to be getting recognised more and more on a daily basis and getting more and more publicity from the stuck up hedge fund type...is this a good thing??? if you have everything you would like to own im guessing yes but if not then your chance may have passed...alternatively wait for a crash...if there is one! if not we shall start again and invest in up and coming talent - like Banksy back in the day!
feel free to rip that to shreads as i know alot of you are more experienced and knowledgable about such topics! just my tuppence
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The US Economy, by dave313perry on Nov 28, 2007 0:24:23 GMT 1, Oh, and as for a recovery in the spring - i think thats utter bollocks!
Oh, and as for a recovery in the spring - i think thats utter bollocks!
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Deleted
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January 1970
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The US Economy, by Deleted on Nov 28, 2007 0:51:43 GMT 1, I agree with a lot of your points. I think the "top" artists (I know that's subjective) will continue to do well, but I don't think we're going to see a lot of artists getting discovered and hyped over the next few months...
I agree with a lot of your points. I think the "top" artists (I know that's subjective) will continue to do well, but I don't think we're going to see a lot of artists getting discovered and hyped over the next few months...
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BONGO
Junior Member
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February 2007
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The US Economy, by BONGO on Nov 28, 2007 13:46:37 GMT 1, BONGO TEMPTED TO RAMBLE ON THIS BUT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF SALIENT POINTS THAT HAVE A BEARING ON THE US ECONOMY THAT WILL SEE A SLOWDOWN, OF WHICH THE SUBPRIME DEBACLE IS BUT ONE MANIFESTATION
BONGO WILL POST ON THIS LATER, BUT AT PRESENT BONGO HAS URGENT TASKS TO ATTEND TO.
BONGO TEMPTED TO RAMBLE ON THIS BUT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF SALIENT POINTS THAT HAVE A BEARING ON THE US ECONOMY THAT WILL SEE A SLOWDOWN, OF WHICH THE SUBPRIME DEBACLE IS BUT ONE MANIFESTATION
BONGO WILL POST ON THIS LATER, BUT AT PRESENT BONGO HAS URGENT TASKS TO ATTEND TO.
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The US Economy, by manchestermike on Nov 28, 2007 13:51:16 GMT 1, I agree with a lot of your points. I think the "top" artists (I know that's subjective) will continue to do well, but I don't think we're going to see a lot of artists getting discovered and hyped over the next few months...
I don't know... we're big boys over here now and can stand on our own two (collective) feet... I think a lot of Americans will be surprised by how little effect their impending economic downturn will have on the UK/Europe...
As has already been pointed out too, a lot of the money in this area of the market is UK money, if it was a US led area then yes, maybe there would be problems on the horizon. I think the only effect of the US recession will be less shows over there...
I really don't forsee any problems of note on these shores.
I agree with a lot of your points. I think the "top" artists (I know that's subjective) will continue to do well, but I don't think we're going to see a lot of artists getting discovered and hyped over the next few months... I don't know... we're big boys over here now and can stand on our own two (collective) feet... I think a lot of Americans will be surprised by how little effect their impending economic downturn will have on the UK/Europe... As has already been pointed out too, a lot of the money in this area of the market is UK money, if it was a US led area then yes, maybe there would be problems on the horizon. I think the only effect of the US recession will be less shows over there... I really don't forsee any problems of note on these shores.
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mike hunt
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December 2006
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The US Economy, by mike hunt on Nov 28, 2007 13:58:50 GMT 1, I think the economy is the UK is in a slightly different position. Take housing - things will slow down (or correct) but there is a big demand for housing here, and that won't change, because supply is limited. The US made much more and much worse loans. The UK economy can't go up forever - things need to correct, but that is different to a crash. No-one knows what catastrophe is around the corner and how that will affect things but barring that, its just correcting.
I think the economy is the UK is in a slightly different position. Take housing - things will slow down (or correct) but there is a big demand for housing here, and that won't change, because supply is limited. The US made much more and much worse loans. The UK economy can't go up forever - things need to correct, but that is different to a crash. No-one knows what catastrophe is around the corner and how that will affect things but barring that, its just correcting.
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mike hunt
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December 2006
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The US Economy, by mike hunt on Nov 28, 2007 14:04:27 GMT 1, Oh yea, and don't forget all the tax breaks means the worlds rich come to London. If the tax rules change, it will have a serious effect, but while its like this, the money will continue to filter down
Oh yea, and don't forget all the tax breaks means the worlds rich come to London. If the tax rules change, it will have a serious effect, but while its like this, the money will continue to filter down
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The US Economy, by ricosg11 on Nov 28, 2007 14:13:55 GMT 1, The dip has nothing to do with economy and everything to do with tremendous mis-management of your favorite artists' long term careers. Nothing is being built, everything just thrown together with money as the main motive (not necessarily the artist themselves). IMO the Amercian artists in the scene will be the ones left after all is said and done. Sorry, but you heard it here first.
The dip has nothing to do with economy and everything to do with tremendous mis-management of your favorite artists' long term careers. Nothing is being built, everything just thrown together with money as the main motive (not necessarily the artist themselves). IMO the Amercian artists in the scene will be the ones left after all is said and done. Sorry, but you heard it here first.
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motor
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,836
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December 2006
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The US Economy, by motor on Nov 28, 2007 14:19:37 GMT 1, The dip has nothing to do with economy and everything to do with tremendous mis-management of your favorite artists' long term careers. Nothing is being built, everything just thrown together with money as the main motive (not necessarily the artist themselves). IMO the Amercian artists in the scene will be the ones left after all is said and done. Sorry, but you heard it here first.
Interesting comment Ricosg. Lot's of truth in it I think... +
The dip has nothing to do with economy and everything to do with tremendous mis-management of your favorite artists' long term careers. Nothing is being built, everything just thrown together with money as the main motive (not necessarily the artist themselves). IMO the Amercian artists in the scene will be the ones left after all is said and done. Sorry, but you heard it here first. Interesting comment Ricosg. Lot's of truth in it I think... +
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The US Economy, by manchestermike on Nov 28, 2007 14:21:30 GMT 1, The dip has nothing to do with economy and everything to do with tremendous mis-management of your favorite artists' long term careers. Nothing is being built, everything just thrown together with money as the main motive (not necessarily the artist themselves). IMO the Amercian artists in the scene will be the ones left after all is said and done. Sorry, but you heard it here first.
90% disagree
There has been some slight mismanagement - i.e. having the Micallef show in LA and releasing too many prints in one go... if the show was in London and a bit more reasonably priced it would have been an amazing success... Thinks are being built, look at Adam Neate, the SOS artists, D*Face... things are being built and built well...
The current down turn is because it's Christmas... the EXACT same thing happened last November / December... people don't want to buy in these months, they will do again in late February / March time once they've got over the expense of Christmas... people seem to forget this...
I'd love to hear your thoughts in depth as why the American artists will be left rather than the UK artists...
The dip has nothing to do with economy and everything to do with tremendous mis-management of your favorite artists' long term careers. Nothing is being built, everything just thrown together with money as the main motive (not necessarily the artist themselves). IMO the Amercian artists in the scene will be the ones left after all is said and done. Sorry, but you heard it here first. 90% disagree There has been some slight mismanagement - i.e. having the Micallef show in LA and releasing too many prints in one go... if the show was in London and a bit more reasonably priced it would have been an amazing success... Thinks are being built, look at Adam Neate, the SOS artists, D*Face... things are being built and built well... The current down turn is because it's Christmas... the EXACT same thing happened last November / December... people don't want to buy in these months, they will do again in late February / March time once they've got over the expense of Christmas... people seem to forget this... I'd love to hear your thoughts in depth as why the American artists will be left rather than the UK artists...
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The US Economy, by dave313perry on Nov 28, 2007 14:26:59 GMT 1, Dont know what you mean about american artists being left - surely their original wherabouts matters f**k all? do you mean artists within the american art market? if not what do you mean?
Dont know what you mean about american artists being left - surely their original wherabouts matters f**k all? do you mean artists within the american art market? if not what do you mean?
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The US Economy, by manchestermike on Nov 28, 2007 14:40:44 GMT 1, Funny how I seem to get a neg whenever I disagree with the views of a certain poster on here
Funny how I seem to get a neg whenever I disagree with the views of a certain poster on here
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The US Economy, by dave313perry on Nov 28, 2007 14:55:53 GMT 1, Funny how I seem to get a neg whenever I disagree with the views of a certain poster on here
arrr shut up winging and take it like a man!!!
Funny how I seem to get a neg whenever I disagree with the views of a certain poster on here arrr shut up winging and take it like a man!!!
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The US Economy, by manchestermike on Nov 28, 2007 15:06:59 GMT 1, Funny how I seem to get a neg whenever I disagree with the views of a certain poster on here arrr shut up winging and take it like a man!!!
I've given up letting it bother me, some things are surely more than just coincidence though ;D
Funny how I seem to get a neg whenever I disagree with the views of a certain poster on here arrr shut up winging and take it like a man!!! I've given up letting it bother me, some things are surely more than just coincidence though ;D
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The US Economy, by ricosg11 on Nov 28, 2007 15:11:32 GMT 1, i dont + or - anyone so it wasnt me. I gotta go to work for a bit, but it is a conversation I would love to continue in an orderly fashion. I guess american vs uk was a poor way of putting it. I would like to keep the convo somewhat private as I would hate to bash anyone or their practices in a public forum. Its just all muuuch to fast and to me it seems the americans in the scene are just quietly putting out great work, at a normal pace, that is being bought up by major private collectors and institutions.
i dont + or - anyone so it wasnt me. I gotta go to work for a bit, but it is a conversation I would love to continue in an orderly fashion. I guess american vs uk was a poor way of putting it. I would like to keep the convo somewhat private as I would hate to bash anyone or their practices in a public forum. Its just all muuuch to fast and to me it seems the americans in the scene are just quietly putting out great work, at a normal pace, that is being bought up by major private collectors and institutions.
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The US Economy, by ricosg11 on Nov 28, 2007 15:12:39 GMT 1, Mike I thought we were buds?? You are entitled to your opinion. One I think quite highly of in fact. Have one of my only + 1's ever. I cant believe I just used that phrase.
Mike I thought we were buds?? You are entitled to your opinion. One I think quite highly of in fact. Have one of my only + 1's ever. I cant believe I just used that phrase.
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The US Economy, by manchestermike on Nov 28, 2007 15:15:05 GMT 1, No problem if it wasn't you Scott, it's just me being grumpy today and getting my knickers in a twist (I got negged commenting on two of your other posts last week then this one today) - obviously just a wind up from someone and my bad thinking it's you... I'm sending an apologetic ++ when I can do ;D
No problem if it wasn't you Scott, it's just me being grumpy today and getting my knickers in a twist (I got negged commenting on two of your other posts last week then this one today) - obviously just a wind up from someone and my bad thinking it's you... I'm sending an apologetic ++ when I can do ;D
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The US Economy, by ricosg11 on Nov 28, 2007 15:18:35 GMT 1, Understandable. It never would cross my mind to neg almost anyone. The system is a sham anyway. Glad that is cleared up though.
Understandable. It never would cross my mind to neg almost anyone. The system is a sham anyway. Glad that is cleared up though.
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The US Economy, by numusic on Nov 28, 2007 16:00:42 GMT 1, i dont + or - anyone so it wasnt me. I gotta go to work for a bit, but it is a conversation I would love to continue in an orderly fashion. I guess american vs uk was a poor way of putting it. I would like to keep the convo somewhat private as I would hate to bash anyone or their practices in a public forum. Its just all muuuch to fast and to me it seems the americans in the scene are just quietly putting out great work, at a normal pace, that is being bought up by major private collectors and institutions.
I agree to a certain extent, the US market for this type of art is far older than the UK's and has a much wider more developed market and diverse set of buyers. Most independent galleries that have shifted focus a little more onto street art, are already very well established in the outsider/low brow and graf related scene. I'd say the two scenes are not really comparable at all, the similarities lay in the influences seen in the work, Mission school, pop /skate /punk /urban..etc etc... business and art history wise..Uk market is in it's infancy for this type of stuff.. and even a more fully developed scene wouldn't even scratch the scale of the scene in the US.
It's just a shame that most UK and European work......... pisses all over that constant bug eyed, low brow tattoo counter cultural wannabe crap that's constantly being churned out in the states ;D what is it with those big bug eyes anyway ?
i dont + or - anyone so it wasnt me. I gotta go to work for a bit, but it is a conversation I would love to continue in an orderly fashion. I guess american vs uk was a poor way of putting it. I would like to keep the convo somewhat private as I would hate to bash anyone or their practices in a public forum. Its just all muuuch to fast and to me it seems the americans in the scene are just quietly putting out great work, at a normal pace, that is being bought up by major private collectors and institutions. I agree to a certain extent, the US market for this type of art is far older than the UK's and has a much wider more developed market and diverse set of buyers. Most independent galleries that have shifted focus a little more onto street art, are already very well established in the outsider/low brow and graf related scene. I'd say the two scenes are not really comparable at all, the similarities lay in the influences seen in the work, Mission school, pop /skate /punk /urban..etc etc... business and art history wise..Uk market is in it's infancy for this type of stuff.. and even a more fully developed scene wouldn't even scratch the scale of the scene in the US. It's just a shame that most UK and European work......... pisses all over that constant bug eyed, low brow tattoo counter cultural wannabe crap that's constantly being churned out in the states ;D what is it with those big bug eyes anyway ?
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ctc2
New Member
Posts โข 277
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March 2007
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The US Economy, by ctc2 on Nov 28, 2007 16:51:52 GMT 1, I just wish that I could afford some of this UK art but the dollar just won't let me.
I just wish that I could afford some of this UK art but the dollar just won't let me.
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The US Economy, by veralynn on Nov 28, 2007 20:38:17 GMT 1, The financial weapons of mass destruction that Warren Buffet alluded to all those years ago are only just beginning to rear their ugly heads - time will tell, but time in this case might be when the pension funds that are the eventual owners of these CDO's try to 'sell' them back to the investment houses they bought them from in the first place. Prudent macro economic fiscal management by central bankers will possibly turn a crisis into a chart point, this isn't going to be another 1989 for the Uk at least or probably the US. I must give up my window cleaning round soon......
The financial weapons of mass destruction that Warren Buffet alluded to all those years ago are only just beginning to rear their ugly heads - time will tell, but time in this case might be when the pension funds that are the eventual owners of these CDO's try to 'sell' them back to the investment houses they bought them from in the first place. Prudent macro economic fiscal management by central bankers will possibly turn a crisis into a chart point, this isn't going to be another 1989 for the Uk at least or probably the US. I must give up my window cleaning round soon......
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