artbrute
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๐จ๏ธ 99
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March 2007
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What influence does the print number have?, by artbrute on May 12, 2007 16:31:02 GMT 1, The last thing I'll say.
I think the only consensus that we can come to is that there isn't any 100% consensus on the topic. It's a fact that some galleries do not charge more and some do. It's a fact that some APs have sold for less than the regular edition and some have sold for more. There's plenty of extremely reputable sources who claim that proofs are no more valuable than any other part of the edition. And there's also people in the art world who claim they are worth more.
So who should you believe? Honestly, I don't know anymore. But if you think it's worth dropping an extra 1k or even 10k?!?! Just so that your print says "pee pee" by all means do. Myself I think it's a sham by sellers and dealers who like to bilk their customers and it just doesn't make any sense why I should pay more for them.
The last thing I'll say.
I think the only consensus that we can come to is that there isn't any 100% consensus on the topic. It's a fact that some galleries do not charge more and some do. It's a fact that some APs have sold for less than the regular edition and some have sold for more. There's plenty of extremely reputable sources who claim that proofs are no more valuable than any other part of the edition. And there's also people in the art world who claim they are worth more.
So who should you believe? Honestly, I don't know anymore. But if you think it's worth dropping an extra 1k or even 10k?!?! Just so that your print says "pee pee" by all means do. Myself I think it's a sham by sellers and dealers who like to bilk their customers and it just doesn't make any sense why I should pay more for them.
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slinkink
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 95
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March 2007
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What influence does the print number have?, by slinkink on May 12, 2007 20:14:14 GMT 1, in that case don't pay more for them... surely like you say, things are worth what people are prepared to pay for them. if people are happy to pay more for an AP or for number 9/25 because their birthday is on the 25th of september then fab. the print will mean more to them because of it. if seeing the letters AP makes them feel good when they look at their print then i'm happy for them. i think a lot of aspects of the artworld are changing and maybe the relative value of AP in relation to the normal release is one of them. personally i think there is a massive difference between numbered AP runs (typically 10% of edition so i am led to believe) and prints just signed AP of which there are an unknown number.
in that case don't pay more for them... surely like you say, things are worth what people are prepared to pay for them. if people are happy to pay more for an AP or for number 9/25 because their birthday is on the 25th of september then fab. the print will mean more to them because of it. if seeing the letters AP makes them feel good when they look at their print then i'm happy for them. i think a lot of aspects of the artworld are changing and maybe the relative value of AP in relation to the normal release is one of them. personally i think there is a massive difference between numbered AP runs (typically 10% of edition so i am led to believe) and prints just signed AP of which there are an unknown number.
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What influence does the print number have?, by corblimeylimey on May 12, 2007 20:45:25 GMT 1, Whether the AP is numbered or not they shouldn't exceed 10% of the run. I'm told my Blek Le Rat unnumbered AP is one of 10.
Whether the AP is numbered or not they shouldn't exceed 10% of the run. I'm told my Blek Le Rat unnumbered AP is one of 10.
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jp
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๐จ๏ธ 431
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September 2006
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What influence does the print number have?, by jp on May 13, 2007 9:22:29 GMT 1, Well, look I have come around somewhat and agree with you guys up to a point. Sure, there's no absolute about pricing ...and human psychology is the ultimate determining factor in what it sells for. But when you say: QUOTE: "like you say, things are worth what people are prepared to pay for them. if people are happy to pay more for an AP or for number 9/25 because their birthday is on the 25th of september then fab. the print will mean more to them because of it. if seeing the letters AP makes them feel good when they look at their print then i'm happy for them. " Well I think it's silly that someone would care about the number, but sure, fine, I agree with you that some people might do that, but just because someone really likes the number 9 and bid a #9 print up above estimates doesn't make it some kind of absolute that now #9s are worth more. Or if someone really likes the color green and bids on a new green car on ebay and bids really high because he really likes green. It doesn't make some absolute that green cars are now worth more. And if someone goes nuts for some LA Banksy APs it doesn't make some absolute that APs are now worth more. Maybe? But not really. All I'm saying is there isn't any real reason why proofs should be worth more except for psychology. Which, the problem is, like I've been saying, psychology is easily manipulated on people who don't really have a basis for understanding or background. Also you mentioned numbered vs. non numbered prints. Now a days numbering is pretty standard but it hasn't always been. And actually there are a lot of older prints and photographs that are not numbered. To many this adds to the mysterious of possibly how few prints were ever printed and still floating around out there. Not being numbered isn't another thing that necessarily means it's worh more or less. Original Diane Arbus photographs for example were not numbered, but they fetch hundreds of thousands now.
Good point artbrute. I think an even better example would be Ansel Adams "Moonrise over Hernandez, NM" It is a benchmark photograph in terms of value. There are over 900 of these prints in existance, and they are not numbered. They were made over several decades and differ greatly in size, tonality, and paper used. Most of these prints are in Museums or large private collections so when they hit the auction block they now sell for between 75-200k depending on size and condition.
The point here is that when a work reaches such a high status, it becomes scarce (even with over 900 in existance), especially as time goes on, and things like numbering do not affect the value at all.
Well, look I have come around somewhat and agree with you guys up to a point. Sure, there's no absolute about pricing ...and human psychology is the ultimate determining factor in what it sells for. But when you say: QUOTE: "like you say, things are worth what people are prepared to pay for them. if people are happy to pay more for an AP or for number 9/25 because their birthday is on the 25th of september then fab. the print will mean more to them because of it. if seeing the letters AP makes them feel good when they look at their print then i'm happy for them. " Well I think it's silly that someone would care about the number, but sure, fine, I agree with you that some people might do that, but just because someone really likes the number 9 and bid a #9 print up above estimates doesn't make it some kind of absolute that now #9s are worth more. Or if someone really likes the color green and bids on a new green car on ebay and bids really high because he really likes green. It doesn't make some absolute that green cars are now worth more. And if someone goes nuts for some LA Banksy APs it doesn't make some absolute that APs are now worth more. Maybe? But not really. All I'm saying is there isn't any real reason why proofs should be worth more except for psychology. Which, the problem is, like I've been saying, psychology is easily manipulated on people who don't really have a basis for understanding or background. Also you mentioned numbered vs. non numbered prints. Now a days numbering is pretty standard but it hasn't always been. And actually there are a lot of older prints and photographs that are not numbered. To many this adds to the mysterious of possibly how few prints were ever printed and still floating around out there. Not being numbered isn't another thing that necessarily means it's worh more or less. Original Diane Arbus photographs for example were not numbered, but they fetch hundreds of thousands now. Good point artbrute. I think an even better example would be Ansel Adams "Moonrise over Hernandez, NM" It is a benchmark photograph in terms of value. There are over 900 of these prints in existance, and they are not numbered. They were made over several decades and differ greatly in size, tonality, and paper used. Most of these prints are in Museums or large private collections so when they hit the auction block they now sell for between 75-200k depending on size and condition. The point here is that when a work reaches such a high status, it becomes scarce (even with over 900 in existance), especially as time goes on, and things like numbering do not affect the value at all. |
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senna
New Member
๐จ๏ธ 480
๐๐ป 10
September 2006
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What influence does the print number have?, by senna on May 13, 2007 15:34:08 GMT 1, People can have opinions on whether they'd personally pay more or not, but it's fact that people are paying more for APs and some artists are charging more for APs.
exactly.
FACT; A/P's & P/P's & very early numbers usually sell/cost more than the numbered runs.
personally, i think it feels a bit of a con when there is no difference in the image/colour etc.
it's become the norm to have an edition + 10/20 A/P's with no difference other than the numbers.
People can have opinions on whether they'd personally pay more or not, but it's fact that people are paying more for APs and some artists are charging more for APs. exactly. FACT; A/P's & P/P's & very early numbers usually sell/cost more than the numbered runs. personally, i think it feels a bit of a con when there is no difference in the image/colour etc. it's become the norm to have an edition + 10/20 A/P's with no difference other than the numbers. |
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motor
Junior Member
๐จ๏ธ 1,839
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December 2006
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What influence does the print number have?, by motor on May 13, 2007 15:41:05 GMT 1, People can have opinions on whether they'd personally pay more or not, but it's fact that people are paying more for APs and some artists are charging more for APs. exactly. FACT; A/P's & P/P's & very early numbers usually sell/cost more than the numbered runs. personally, i think it feels a bit of a con when there is no difference in the image/colour etc. it's become the norm to have an edition + 10/20 A/P's with no difference other than the numbers.
Agree...
However there are instances where A/P or P/P are of slightly different colour hence difference from normal run. Add to that very limited number of them being produced and you have a higher price...
People can have opinions on whether they'd personally pay more or not, but it's fact that people are paying more for APs and some artists are charging more for APs. exactly. FACT; A/P's & P/P's & very early numbers usually sell/cost more than the numbered runs. personally, i think it feels a bit of a con when there is no difference in the image/colour etc. it's become the norm to have an edition + 10/20 A/P's with no difference other than the numbers. Agree... However there are instances where A/P or P/P are of slightly different colour hence difference from normal run. Add to that very limited number of them being produced and you have a higher price... |
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