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Forming a Registry, by stencilope on May 23, 2006 8:28:09 GMT 1, I posted this as a reply on another thread, but thought this might just deserve its own topic as it will (hopefully) generate a lot of debate!
I think it would be an EXTREMELY good idea for someone to begin a comprehensive registry, or collectors organization. This is sometimes done with some artists work that has been prone to easy forgery, and is commonly done with rare or limited edition collectors vehicles which are prone to the same.
There are obviously individuals here and the Banksy Ebay forum that have an encyclopedic knowledge of the early works. It would probably save a great amount of time and trouble to begin to compile a list of known authentic prints and variations now, BEFORE any actual professional forgeries show up, which is bound to happen in the next few years, and while memories are still fresh.
It is very common for a private registry or collectors club to issue thier own club authentications for pieces, along with keeping record of histories of ownership on file as well as photos individuals send of the numbered works they own so that if a forgery pops up with the same numbers later, no matter how convincing, there is never a doubt as to the true owner and provenance. The organization as a third party has dated records to protect the real owners!
Registries like this succeed really well, as there is a serious motive for owners to submit thier information to the registry to protect themselves - all someone has to do is compile it into a list.
As long as it happens soon, and as long as people able to "vet" real vs. fake pieces still are around, this will work.
Wait 5 or 10 years from now and all these prints, real or not, will be worthless. Look at Miro prints as a perfect example of this phenomenon. No one can tell what is real and not!
My father is part of two registries for classic cars, and starting one of them too late meant that people trying to register thier cars found two and even three of each serial number in existance, with no clear provenance for most. His other registry started early for another type of car, and they have the lists of who has owned over half the cars through each sale from new to current over 30+ years. No chance for a forgery there!
What do people think?
I posted this as a reply on another thread, but thought this might just deserve its own topic as it will (hopefully) generate a lot of debate!
I think it would be an EXTREMELY good idea for someone to begin a comprehensive registry, or collectors organization. This is sometimes done with some artists work that has been prone to easy forgery, and is commonly done with rare or limited edition collectors vehicles which are prone to the same.
There are obviously individuals here and the Banksy Ebay forum that have an encyclopedic knowledge of the early works. It would probably save a great amount of time and trouble to begin to compile a list of known authentic prints and variations now, BEFORE any actual professional forgeries show up, which is bound to happen in the next few years, and while memories are still fresh.
It is very common for a private registry or collectors club to issue thier own club authentications for pieces, along with keeping record of histories of ownership on file as well as photos individuals send of the numbered works they own so that if a forgery pops up with the same numbers later, no matter how convincing, there is never a doubt as to the true owner and provenance. The organization as a third party has dated records to protect the real owners!
Registries like this succeed really well, as there is a serious motive for owners to submit thier information to the registry to protect themselves - all someone has to do is compile it into a list.
As long as it happens soon, and as long as people able to "vet" real vs. fake pieces still are around, this will work.
Wait 5 or 10 years from now and all these prints, real or not, will be worthless. Look at Miro prints as a perfect example of this phenomenon. No one can tell what is real and not!
My father is part of two registries for classic cars, and starting one of them too late meant that people trying to register thier cars found two and even three of each serial number in existance, with no clear provenance for most. His other registry started early for another type of car, and they have the lists of who has owned over half the cars through each sale from new to current over 30+ years. No chance for a forgery there!
What do people think?
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crack
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Forming a Registry, by crack on May 23, 2006 8:41:09 GMT 1, ...I think that this is an excellent idae - though would involve a big commitment going forward eg updating, delaing with queries etc. Also, this would very much raise the profile of this site which can only be a good thing. Good shout Stencilope.
...I think that this is an excellent idae - though would involve a big commitment going forward eg updating, delaing with queries etc. Also, this would very much raise the profile of this site which can only be a good thing. Good shout Stencilope.
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Forming a Registry, by policeaware on May 23, 2006 9:41:25 GMT 1, I agree this is a good idea but it would require some serious time to build and maintain.
We would also need to think how to validate the claim of ownership to prevent it being abused.
I agree this is a good idea but it would require some serious time to build and maintain.
We would also need to think how to validate the claim of ownership to prevent it being abused.
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Forming a Registry, by beejoir1 on May 23, 2006 10:13:14 GMT 1, I do think its a great idea, but there are already 100s of professional forgeries on the market, I visited the priters of JMV and sons the other day, hes got the perfect and been selling them for about a year!! Signed and unsigned! Kinda shocked when I saw them!
I do think its a great idea, but there are already 100s of professional forgeries on the market, I visited the priters of JMV and sons the other day, hes got the perfect and been selling them for about a year!! Signed and unsigned! Kinda shocked when I saw them!
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Forming a Registry, by numusic on May 23, 2006 10:40:06 GMT 1, oh man, you should report them ! sounds a bit drastic coming from a bunch of banksy collecting anarchists..but seriously...you might end up with one of em..
oh man, you should report them ! sounds a bit drastic coming from a bunch of banksy collecting anarchists..but seriously...you might end up with one of em..
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Forming a Registry, by beejoir1 on May 23, 2006 12:19:23 GMT 1, This dudes got a whole wall of originals, and hes a professional screen printer!!! with the prices on Ebay.... damn who can blame the man, after all they are a piece of piss to screen!! Hes got a few ebay accounts and been dribbling them out for ages now!! so who knows whats what?
This dudes got a whole wall of originals, and hes a professional screen printer!!! with the prices on Ebay.... damn who can blame the man, after all they are a piece of piss to screen!! Hes got a few ebay accounts and been dribbling them out for ages now!! so who knows whats what?
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Forming a Registry, by numusic on May 23, 2006 13:19:13 GMT 1, what are his ebay alias' ?
what are his ebay alias' ?
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happydee
New Member
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April 2006
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Forming a Registry, by happydee on May 23, 2006 13:32:39 GMT 1, bring on the ducking chair!!!!
bring on the ducking chair!!!!
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Forming a Registry, by policeaware on May 23, 2006 14:20:38 GMT 1, damn who can blame the man, after all they are a piece of piss to screen!! Hes got a few ebay accounts and been dribbling them out for ages now!! so who knows whats what?
Shocking ....
If this is the case then the individual in question will have built up trust and will continue to steal from people.
damn who can blame the man, after all they are a piece of piss to screen!! Hes got a few ebay accounts and been dribbling them out for ages now!! so who knows whats what? Shocking .... If this is the case then the individual in question will have built up trust and will continue to steal from people. |
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crack
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Forming a Registry, by crack on May 23, 2006 14:25:22 GMT 1, I agree this is a good idea but it would require some serious time to build and maintain. We would also need to think how to validate the claim of ownership to prevent it being abused. Very good idea but authenticating and validating this is a big priority - not sure how we could do this. Don't POW keep a record - a name next to each print number they issue - i'm sure i read that on the new website?? this would obviously be the most trustworthy source - then they will probably also have a list of the numbers they sold to artrepublic and the other outlets etc?
Not to sure if POW have this info? Also, i've only ever bought my prints off of POW and now have 7, however, I'm yet to receive a printed receipt with any of my orders - anyone else in this situ?
I agree this is a good idea but it would require some serious time to build and maintain. We would also need to think how to validate the claim of ownership to prevent it being abused. Very good idea but authenticating and validating this is a big priority - not sure how we could do this. Don't POW keep a record - a name next to each print number they issue - i'm sure i read that on the new website?? this would obviously be the most trustworthy source - then they will probably also have a list of the numbers they sold to artrepublic and the other outlets etc? Not to sure if POW have this info? Also, i've only ever bought my prints off of POW and now have 7, however, I'm yet to receive a printed receipt with any of my orders - anyone else in this situ? |
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Forming a Registry, by policeaware on May 23, 2006 14:26:56 GMT 1,
same for me, spent loads of money with POW via the phone and never once received a receipt.
same for me, spent loads of money with POW via the phone and never once received a receipt.
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crack
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January 2006
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Forming a Registry, by crack on May 23, 2006 14:30:32 GMT 1, same for me, spent loads of money with POW via the phone and never once received a receipt.
mmm cheers for coming back Policeaware.
Now given the above situ, with this geezer making his 'own' banksy screenprints - I mean, how will we justify that our pictures are the real deal and not skanked?
Does anyone know if POW do keep a record of buyers or this something that is going to happen going forward?
same for me, spent loads of money with POW via the phone and never once received a receipt. mmm cheers for coming back Policeaware. Now given the above situ, with this geezer making his 'own' banksy screenprints - I mean, how will we justify that our pictures are the real deal and not skanked? Does anyone know if POW do keep a record of buyers or this something that is going to happen going forward? |
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Forming a Registry, by artforartssake on May 23, 2006 14:33:58 GMT 1, same for me, spent loads of money with POW via the phone and never once received a receipt. . Does anyone know if POW do keep a record of buyers or this something that is going to happen going forward?
they do, says so on their website, though how detailed or up to date this is, is worth querying
same for me, spent loads of money with POW via the phone and never once received a receipt. . Does anyone know if POW do keep a record of buyers or this something that is going to happen going forward? they do, says so on their website, though how detailed or up to date this is, is worth querying |
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Forming a Registry, by beejoir1 on May 23, 2006 14:43:34 GMT 1, But then the problem is they are re-sold and sold on again, look at the trade of these prints....... %50 or more buy these prints, to re-sell!!!!! its the way it is! They buy them as an investment, which is kinda of sad, but a fact! I have a number of originals and have still yet to sell one! They all hang up on my wall with pride, and taking a look at JMC's copies, I can hand on heart say there is not one detail hes missed (myfather was a forger) every aspect, paper/paint/sig/stamp they are perfect!..... and as you say POW should issue every print with a COA or something, like Cauty does, with a small water mark or metallic stamp, it would make the forgers job a whole heap harder!! As for JMC's Ebay names, I have no idea, hes just a mate of my fathers! he shifts alot of things that he ''makes'' on there, and all his accounts I guess they look legit! Who knows anyone of us could have one of his prints hanging in our living room, and one day you come to sell it and someone says, ''hey I got print number 113, yours must be fake'' and hows anyone going to know? unless you were the one buying 1st hand direct through POW? Its going to be pretty hard to sort this all out!! I know no one wanted to hear this! and I doubt JMC is the only one!
But then the problem is they are re-sold and sold on again, look at the trade of these prints....... %50 or more buy these prints, to re-sell!!!!! its the way it is! They buy them as an investment, which is kinda of sad, but a fact! I have a number of originals and have still yet to sell one! They all hang up on my wall with pride, and taking a look at JMC's copies, I can hand on heart say there is not one detail hes missed (myfather was a forger) every aspect, paper/paint/sig/stamp they are perfect!..... and as you say POW should issue every print with a COA or something, like Cauty does, with a small water mark or metallic stamp, it would make the forgers job a whole heap harder!! As for JMC's Ebay names, I have no idea, hes just a mate of my fathers! he shifts alot of things that he ''makes'' on there, and all his accounts I guess they look legit! Who knows anyone of us could have one of his prints hanging in our living room, and one day you come to sell it and someone says, ''hey I got print number 113, yours must be fake'' and hows anyone going to know? unless you were the one buying 1st hand direct through POW? Its going to be pretty hard to sort this all out!! I know no one wanted to hear this! and I doubt JMC is the only one!
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crack
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January 2006
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Forming a Registry, by crack on May 23, 2006 14:49:14 GMT 1, But then the problem is they are re-sold and sold on again, look at the trade of these prints....... %50 or more buy these prints, to re-sell!!!!! its the way it is! They buy them as an investment, which is kinda of sad, but a fact! I have a number of originals and have still yet to sell one! They all hang up on my wall with pride, and taking a look at JMC's copies, I can hand on heart say there is not one detail hes missed (myfather was a forger) every aspect, paper/paint/sig/stamp they are perfect!..... and as you say POW should issue every print with a COA or something, like Cauty does, with a small water mark or metallic stamp, it would make the forgers job a whole heap harder!! As for JMC's Ebay names, I have no idea, hes just a mate of my fathers! he shifts alot of things that he ''makes'' on there, and all his accounts I guess they look legit! Who knows anyone of us could have one of his prints hanging in our living room, and one day you come to sell it and someone says, ''hey I got print number 113, yours must be fake'' and hows anyone going to know? unless you were the one buying 1st hand direct through POW? Its going to be pretty hard to sort this all out!! I know no one wanted to hear this! and I doubt JMC is the only one!
I think thats the rub. POW need to come out and tell us what they actually do or don't know and if indeed this will be looked at?
But then the problem is they are re-sold and sold on again, look at the trade of these prints....... %50 or more buy these prints, to re-sell!!!!! its the way it is! They buy them as an investment, which is kinda of sad, but a fact! I have a number of originals and have still yet to sell one! They all hang up on my wall with pride, and taking a look at JMC's copies, I can hand on heart say there is not one detail hes missed (myfather was a forger) every aspect, paper/paint/sig/stamp they are perfect!..... and as you say POW should issue every print with a COA or something, like Cauty does, with a small water mark or metallic stamp, it would make the forgers job a whole heap harder!! As for JMC's Ebay names, I have no idea, hes just a mate of my fathers! he shifts alot of things that he ''makes'' on there, and all his accounts I guess they look legit! Who knows anyone of us could have one of his prints hanging in our living room, and one day you come to sell it and someone says, ''hey I got print number 113, yours must be fake'' and hows anyone going to know? unless you were the one buying 1st hand direct through POW? Its going to be pretty hard to sort this all out!! I know no one wanted to hear this! and I doubt JMC is the only one! I think thats the rub. POW need to come out and tell us what they actually do or don't know and if indeed this will be looked at? |
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retep
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April 2006
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Forming a Registry, by retep on May 23, 2006 14:50:26 GMT 1, does anyone have any pics of these jmc rip-offs.
does this mean that this guy has a copy of the pow stamp as well?
does anyone have any pics of these jmc rip-offs.
does this mean that this guy has a copy of the pow stamp as well?
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Forming a Registry, by Daniel Silk on May 23, 2006 17:07:21 GMT 1, I really do think your worrying about nothing 
I think I have only ever seen about three fake Banksy prints on ebay.
If someone was printing them up, surly they would be printing stuff like the early Rude Copper, as that would not only be the easiest to print but get the most money. How many of them have you seen come up on ebay? 
I think that the only suspect prints we are seeing are the few that have no numbers that have slipped out of the printers before POW started printing it all themselves.
Its not like ebay is swamped with prints Only about 5-10% of the total print runs ever seems to be resold.
I really do think your worrying about nothing I think I have only ever seen about three fake Banksy prints on ebay. If someone was printing them up, surly they would be printing stuff like the early Rude Copper, as that would not only be the easiest to print but get the most money. How many of them have you seen come up on ebay? I think that the only suspect prints we are seeing are the few that have no numbers that have slipped out of the printers before POW started printing it all themselves. Its not like ebay is swamped with prints Only about 5-10% of the total print runs ever seems to be resold. |
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Forming a Registry, by beejoir1 on May 23, 2006 17:10:08 GMT 1, OKies!
OKies!
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Forming a Registry, by monochrome on May 23, 2006 17:34:05 GMT 1, wo wo wo wo sweet child of mine...
are we saying that ebay is littered with fakes now? am confused.
apart from the Mary\Rat issue, and the occasional back door print nothing has appeared on eBay that isn't a legit print.
i doubt any 'master' criminal will go into business just to make 2-3 prints that he can sell on eBay - after all the chances are someone will condemn it.
so why go to the trouble of making perfect screens from a perfect print?? waste of time and money. if they start going for £10k a pop then risking it may be worth it.
wo wo wo wo sweet child of mine...
are we saying that ebay is littered with fakes now? am confused.
apart from the Mary\Rat issue, and the occasional back door print nothing has appeared on eBay that isn't a legit print.
i doubt any 'master' criminal will go into business just to make 2-3 prints that he can sell on eBay - after all the chances are someone will condemn it.
so why go to the trouble of making perfect screens from a perfect print?? waste of time and money. if they start going for £10k a pop then risking it may be worth it.
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Forming a Registry, by numusic on May 23, 2006 18:07:58 GMT 1, It's become such a dodgy market, either go direct through POW or pay massive gallery mark ups.. I just pulled my bid from ebay for this.. cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230000259293&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1
A shame cos I really wanted it, but he hasn't responded to requests for close ups or numbering etc etc.. sudden silence.. he's probably kosher as he's got great ratings.. but suddenly this means nothing where a Banksy's concerned. And who in the beginning kept receipts for a 50 quid print.. I know I sure didn't.
It's become such a dodgy market, either go direct through POW or pay massive gallery mark ups.. I just pulled my bid from ebay for this.. cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230000259293&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1A shame cos I really wanted it, but he hasn't responded to requests for close ups or numbering etc etc.. sudden silence.. he's probably kosher as he's got great ratings.. but suddenly this means nothing where a Banksy's concerned. And who in the beginning kept receipts for a 50 quid print.. I know I sure didn't. |
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Forming a Registry, by dill on May 23, 2006 18:10:54 GMT 1, I think you may be right. Speaking dog to dog, the fact is he may be completely cosher...but the print might not be!
I think you may be right. Speaking dog to dog, the fact is he may be completely cosher...but the print might not be!
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Forming a Registry, by monochrome on May 23, 2006 19:58:43 GMT 1, numusic - your print seller is good. i have dealt with him. no idea about the print, but i know he collects Banksy, so it could be good
numusic - your print seller is good. i have dealt with him. no idea about the print, but i know he collects Banksy, so it could be good
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Forming a Registry, by numusic on May 24, 2006 0:13:30 GMT 1, I think you may be right. Speaking dog to dog, the fact is he may be completely cosher...but the print might not be!
Hi dill,print turned out to be 100%.. errm genuine ;-) a bit embarrassing really ! maybe we're all a bit too jumpy about fakes, got a bit paranoid yesterday..
I think you may be right. Speaking dog to dog, the fact is he may be completely cosher...but the print might not be! Hi dill,print turned out to be 100%.. errm genuine ;-) a bit embarrassing really ! maybe we're all a bit too jumpy about fakes, got a bit paranoid yesterday.. |
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Forming a Registry, by dill on May 24, 2006 1:02:43 GMT 1, well numusic
we all have just seen what samwise6969 went through after he bought the dodgy rat sketch/fake....so at the end of the day being cautious is completely understandable.
It's better to lose a print you like and suffer some mild embarassment than find youve spent the best part of a grand on a worthless fake! And now you have to spend your time pissing about trying to get your money back.
i wouldn't beat yourself up over it...in this instance it reall is better to be safe than sorry!
well numusic we all have just seen what samwise6969 went through after he bought the dodgy rat sketch/fake....so at the end of the day being cautious is completely understandable. It's better to lose a print you like and suffer some mild embarassment than find youve spent the best part of a grand on a worthless fake! And now you have to spend your time pissing about trying to get your money back. i wouldn't beat yourself up over it...in this instance it reall is better to be safe than sorry! |
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Forming a Registry, by stencilope on May 24, 2006 2:49:20 GMT 1, so why go to the trouble of making perfect screens from a perfect print?? waste of time and money. if they start going for £10k a pop then risking it may be worth it.
Yes, I agree. But by then it will be far too late for a registry.
When they do go for 5 or 10k a pop, having an entry for your current prints on record dating back from 2006, before there were truly serious forgeries, says a LOT about it's authenticity doesn't it?
No registry will ever be able to serve as an ultimate authenticator, but is one factor in favor of it. Not every print needs total authentication or complete ownership record, either.
A paper trail for any specific number certainly protects that print and keeps more of that number from magically appearing every time the price jumps!
so why go to the trouble of making perfect screens from a perfect print?? waste of time and money. if they start going for £10k a pop then risking it may be worth it. Yes, I agree. But by then it will be far too late for a registry. When they do go for 5 or 10k a pop, having an entry for your current prints on record dating back from 2006, before there were truly serious forgeries, says a LOT about it's authenticity doesn't it? No registry will ever be able to serve as an ultimate authenticator, but is one factor in favor of it. Not every print needs total authentication or complete ownership record, either. A paper trail for any specific number certainly protects that print and keeps more of that number from magically appearing every time the price jumps! |
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zissou
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June 2006
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Forming a Registry, by zissou on Jun 24, 2006 4:56:15 GMT 1, just use Expressobeans and enter your collections. you can list your collection an details like print numbers etc. the site automaticaly aggrigates how prints were procured etc.
the site has an emphasis on rock poster artists, but it is really open to any art.
just use Expressobeans and enter your collections. you can list your collection an details like print numbers etc. the site automaticaly aggrigates how prints were procured etc.
the site has an emphasis on rock poster artists, but it is really open to any art.
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caroline
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September 2006
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Forming a Registry, by caroline on Sept 9, 2006 21:40:46 GMT 1, so has anyone formed a registry?
so has anyone formed a registry?
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Forming a Registry, by artforartssake on Sept 10, 2006 13:33:50 GMT 1, Not as far as I'm aware, but POW hold a list of all original direct buyers and dealers that they sold to.
Not as far as I'm aware, but POW hold a list of all original direct buyers and dealers that they sold to.
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ratpack
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September 2006
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Forming a Registry, by ratpack on Sept 12, 2006 17:36:35 GMT 1,
Sounds like a great idea. I have contacted POW a couple of time to ask about a Weston print that I bought from them a few years ago. I can't remember how I bought it but I think it must have been through their site.
I have found it very difficult to get a response form them everytime I ask them to check whether they have mine on record.
At the time I don't think that I got receipt with it either which only makes matters worse.
Sounds like a great idea. I have contacted POW a couple of time to ask about a Weston print that I bought from them a few years ago. I can't remember how I bought it but I think it must have been through their site.
I have found it very difficult to get a response form them everytime I ask them to check whether they have mine on record.
At the time I don't think that I got receipt with it either which only makes matters worse.
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gm
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February 2006
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Forming a Registry, by gm on Sept 12, 2006 23:49:37 GMT 1, I've long since lost the receipt from when I got my Grin Reaper, and I got it at Santa's Ghetto so there's no correspondence between myself and POW either.
I was supposed to go back to TomTom at some point and pick up letters of provenance for another 2, but I never did.
Suppose I should do something about it really, but I'm a lazy git.
I've long since lost the receipt from when I got my Grin Reaper, and I got it at Santa's Ghetto so there's no correspondence between myself and POW either.
I was supposed to go back to TomTom at some point and pick up letters of provenance for another 2, but I never did.
Suppose I should do something about it really, but I'm a lazy git.
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