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Price drop?, by corblimeylimey on Aug 13, 2007 14:43:48 GMT 1, I really don't understand why Micallef has been associated with Banksy or the street art 'scene' at all, I know he was picked up on by Laz but other connections are pretty thin, surely there's other 'fine artists' out there that fit the criteria of subject matter etc that Neate and Micallef have.
I really don't understand why Micallef has been associated with Banksy or the street art 'scene' at all, I know he was picked up on by Laz but other connections are pretty thin, surely there's other 'fine artists' out there that fit the criteria of subject matter etc that Neate and Micallef have.
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Price drop?, by insite on Aug 13, 2007 14:44:48 GMT 1, I think Neate and Micallef are in a different world to most of the street stuff, only Banksy is there price wise and gallery/auction wise. Neate & Micallef are much more towards the fine art side of things IMO and they 'fit' better in the traditional fine art gallery situation, I guess you could add Denning to that too, but Beejoir, Mantis, Invader, D Face, Blek Le Rat and others similar are a different kettle of fish. I think Neate and Micallef certainly are fine art but are not necessarily in a different world. Banksy has helped a create a new market of art lovers. Art has become a very accessible thing to a new breed of people. Neate and Micallef have been associated with the Scene because their subject matter is to do with contemporary issues just like banksy. (and because of associating themselves with the right names) So I guess I am saying that Neate and Micallef wouldn't be quite as big as they are if it weren't for banksy so are therefore not in a different world. I know alot of people may disagree.
I think that Banksy has done more than just introduce a new market to buying art, by selling/trading up a lot of people have been given a financial opportunity to buy artists that would normally be out of reach. I'm liking Neate more and more the more I see but there's no way I could of afforded a print even at ยฃ900 but if I had a signed Banksy too cash in then I'd be in the position of thinking "only ยฃ900 for a Neate, bargain". He's having a huge effect on the art market in many ways
I think Neate and Micallef are in a different world to most of the street stuff, only Banksy is there price wise and gallery/auction wise. Neate & Micallef are much more towards the fine art side of things IMO and they 'fit' better in the traditional fine art gallery situation, I guess you could add Denning to that too, but Beejoir, Mantis, Invader, D Face, Blek Le Rat and others similar are a different kettle of fish. I think Neate and Micallef certainly are fine art but are not necessarily in a different world. Banksy has helped a create a new market of art lovers. Art has become a very accessible thing to a new breed of people. Neate and Micallef have been associated with the Scene because their subject matter is to do with contemporary issues just like banksy. (and because of associating themselves with the right names) So I guess I am saying that Neate and Micallef wouldn't be quite as big as they are if it weren't for banksy so are therefore not in a different world. I know alot of people may disagree. I think that Banksy has done more than just introduce a new market to buying art, by selling/trading up a lot of people have been given a financial opportunity to buy artists that would normally be out of reach. I'm liking Neate more and more the more I see but there's no way I could of afforded a print even at ยฃ900 but if I had a signed Banksy too cash in then I'd be in the position of thinking "only ยฃ900 for a Neate, bargain". He's having a huge effect on the art market in many ways
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Price drop?, by carlito on Aug 13, 2007 14:49:18 GMT 1, I think Neate and Micallef certainly are fine art but are not necessarily in a different world. Banksy has helped a create a new market of art lovers. Art has become a very accessible thing to a new breed of people. Neate and Micallef have been associated with the Scene because their subject matter is to do with contemporary issues just like banksy. (and because of associating themselves with the right names) So I guess I am saying that Neate and Micallef wouldn't be quite as big as they are if it weren't for banksy so are therefore not in a different world. I know alot of people may disagree. I think that Banksy has done more than just introduce a new market to buying art, by selling/trading up a lot of people have been given a financial opportunity to buy artists that would normally be out of reach. I'm liking Neate more and more the more I see but there's no way I could of afforded a print even at ยฃ900 but if I had a signed Banksy too cash in then I'd be in the position of thinking "only ยฃ900 for a Neate, bargain". He's having a huge effect on the art market in many ways
good point Insite..and if I was more canny certainly the way I'd move up the art market ladder
I think Neate and Micallef certainly are fine art but are not necessarily in a different world. Banksy has helped a create a new market of art lovers. Art has become a very accessible thing to a new breed of people. Neate and Micallef have been associated with the Scene because their subject matter is to do with contemporary issues just like banksy. (and because of associating themselves with the right names) So I guess I am saying that Neate and Micallef wouldn't be quite as big as they are if it weren't for banksy so are therefore not in a different world. I know alot of people may disagree. I think that Banksy has done more than just introduce a new market to buying art, by selling/trading up a lot of people have been given a financial opportunity to buy artists that would normally be out of reach. I'm liking Neate more and more the more I see but there's no way I could of afforded a print even at ยฃ900 but if I had a signed Banksy too cash in then I'd be in the position of thinking "only ยฃ900 for a Neate, bargain". He's having a huge effect on the art market in many ways good point Insite..and if I was more canny certainly the way I'd move up the art market ladder
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Price drop?, by baldwin on Aug 13, 2007 14:53:35 GMT 1, Yeah good point. I can't believe that as a student I would happily drop a grand on a print. I am suppose to be eating baked beans on toast and getting Scurvy.
All rational thinking has gone out of the window. Fun though! ;D
Yeah good point. I can't believe that as a student I would happily drop a grand on a print. I am suppose to be eating baked beans on toast and getting Scurvy.
All rational thinking has gone out of the window. Fun though! ;D
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Price drop?, by Daniel Silk on Aug 13, 2007 14:54:13 GMT 1, I think Neate and Micallef certainly are fine art but are not necessarily in a different world. Banksy has helped a create a new market of art lovers. Art has become a very accessible thing to a new breed of people. Neate and Micallef have been associated with the Scene because their subject matter is to do with contemporary issues just like banksy. (and because of associating themselves with the right names) So I guess I am saying that Neate and Micallef wouldn't be quite as big as they are if it weren't for banksy so are therefore not in a different world. I know alot of people may disagree. I think that Banksy has done more than just introduce a new market to buying art, by selling/trading up a lot of people have been given a financial opportunity to buy artists that would normally be out of reach. I'm liking Neate more and more the more I see but there's no way I could of afforded a print even at ยฃ900 but if I had a signed Banksy too cash in then I'd be in the position of thinking "only ยฃ900 for a Neate, bargain". He's having a huge effect on the art market in many ways
Very true! I could never afford most of the pieces I have been buying But Banksy has made it possible for pretty much anyone to get on the Art ladder ;D
I think Neate and Micallef certainly are fine art but are not necessarily in a different world. Banksy has helped a create a new market of art lovers. Art has become a very accessible thing to a new breed of people. Neate and Micallef have been associated with the Scene because their subject matter is to do with contemporary issues just like banksy. (and because of associating themselves with the right names) So I guess I am saying that Neate and Micallef wouldn't be quite as big as they are if it weren't for banksy so are therefore not in a different world. I know alot of people may disagree. I think that Banksy has done more than just introduce a new market to buying art, by selling/trading up a lot of people have been given a financial opportunity to buy artists that would normally be out of reach. I'm liking Neate more and more the more I see but there's no way I could of afforded a print even at ยฃ900 but if I had a signed Banksy too cash in then I'd be in the position of thinking "only ยฃ900 for a Neate, bargain". He's having a huge effect on the art market in many ways Very true! I could never afford most of the pieces I have been buying But Banksy has made it possible for pretty much anyone to get on the Art ladder ;D
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Price drop?, by corblimeylimey on Aug 13, 2007 14:58:13 GMT 1, I thought it was a bit mad spending ยฃ500 on my first Banksy (J&J) a year ago, I think once on this 'art ladder' self control is needed to (as Banksy puts it) 'keep it real', my 3 prints and 1 canvas that I hung in my living room yesterday and posted on the Get Your Banksys Out thread only cost less than ยฃ300 all put together, add to that about ยฃ275 in framing costs.
I thought it was a bit mad spending ยฃ500 on my first Banksy (J&J) a year ago, I think once on this 'art ladder' self control is needed to (as Banksy puts it) 'keep it real', my 3 prints and 1 canvas that I hung in my living room yesterday and posted on the Get Your Banksys Out thread only cost less than ยฃ300 all put together, add to that about ยฃ275 in framing costs.
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Price drop?, by insite on Aug 13, 2007 15:05:00 GMT 1, I thought it was a bit mad spending ยฃ500 on my first Banksy (J&J) a year ago, I think once on this 'art ladder' self control is needed to (as Banksy puts it) 'keep it real', my 3 prints and 1 canvas that I hung in my living room yesterday and posted on the Get Your Banksys Out thread only cost less than ยฃ300 all put together, add to that about ยฃ275 in framing costs.
You're right there mate, my first would be SBFO I catch myself thinking "well the SBFO is worth ยฃ700 or more so those Neate's aren't too much more" then I have to remind myself that I wasn't sure if I could afford the ยฃ125 in the first place and that ยฃ900 is way out of my league simply because I haven't got it ;D. It certainly starts to twist your perceptions very quickly.
I thought it was a bit mad spending ยฃ500 on my first Banksy (J&J) a year ago, I think once on this 'art ladder' self control is needed to (as Banksy puts it) 'keep it real', my 3 prints and 1 canvas that I hung in my living room yesterday and posted on the Get Your Banksys Out thread only cost less than ยฃ300 all put together, add to that about ยฃ275 in framing costs. You're right there mate, my first would be SBFO I catch myself thinking "well the SBFO is worth ยฃ700 or more so those Neate's aren't too much more" then I have to remind myself that I wasn't sure if I could afford the ยฃ125 in the first place and that ยฃ900 is way out of my league simply because I haven't got it ;D. It certainly starts to twist your perceptions very quickly.
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corisma
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Price drop?, by corisma on Aug 13, 2007 15:51:59 GMT 1, yes true bobby to some extent maybe i worded that slightly wrong .. but i don't agree the stock market would have crashed anyway .. and the housing market still would've boomed regardless .. all the ex stock investors did was to speed up the boom even further
Skanky Do you think Neate and Micallef are hyped up ?
Yes i do to an extent (aren't all new artists today) I'm not denying that they're both very talented artists but i don't really see the message that Neates work puts across He started by just painting funny faces in the street imo Not that i don't love his funny faces .. they're genius ;D
I agree with Corblimey though that many of these newer 'artists' will be the long term losers in all this though i disagree with Blek as he was the Original stencilist from years ago .. he's not just another wannabee
Would you really want that Shell for Oil print up in your lounge ?
If they stand the test of time i will be Amazed
yes true bobby to some extent maybe i worded that slightly wrong .. but i don't agree the stock market would have crashed anyway .. and the housing market still would've boomed regardless .. all the ex stock investors did was to speed up the boom even further
Skanky Do you think Neate and Micallef are hyped up ?
Yes i do to an extent (aren't all new artists today) I'm not denying that they're both very talented artists but i don't really see the message that Neates work puts across He started by just painting funny faces in the street imo Not that i don't love his funny faces .. they're genius ;D
I agree with Corblimey though that many of these newer 'artists' will be the long term losers in all this though i disagree with Blek as he was the Original stencilist from years ago .. he's not just another wannabee
Would you really want that Shell for Oil print up in your lounge ?
If they stand the test of time i will be Amazed
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Price drop?, by bobbymeachamjr on Aug 13, 2007 16:02:25 GMT 1, IMHO as of right now Banksy is the only one that MIGHT get a very small section (UK Street ART 2005-2010) in the art history books years from now. Micallef and Neate might get a mention. These 3 are the only ones in my book that has any chance of standing the test of time. The other artist that might have a chance is Ian Francis but thats because I see him as a pure talent rather than by association with a particular scene.
IMHO as of right now Banksy is the only one that MIGHT get a very small section (UK Street ART 2005-2010) in the art history books years from now. Micallef and Neate might get a mention. These 3 are the only ones in my book that has any chance of standing the test of time. The other artist that might have a chance is Ian Francis but thats because I see him as a pure talent rather than by association with a particular scene.
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corisma
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Price drop?, by corisma on Aug 13, 2007 16:04:38 GMT 1, Don't get me wrong i love Adams work & some of Micaleffs & they're definately worthy of their place in the fine arts market
But the likes of Mantis , Beejoir etc . just don't do anything for me at all
Corblimey in one sentence you knock them though and in the next your proud to have them on your walls ?
Do you really like them or not ?
Don't get me wrong i love Adams work & some of Micaleffs & they're definately worthy of their place in the fine arts market But the likes of Mantis , Beejoir etc . just don't do anything for me at all Corblimey in one sentence you knock them though and in the next your proud to have them on your walls ? Do you really like them or not ?
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skanky
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Price drop?, by skanky on Aug 13, 2007 16:24:29 GMT 1, I dont think Neate and Micallef are hyped up at all. I was astounded by the quality of work at the Neate exhibition. Looking forward to seeing what Micallef has got up to but unfortuately cant make it. IMHO only these two artists can be compared to Banksy, the sales of their work at exhibitions and the big auction houses prove this. Personally Neate is my favourite artist of the 3 , as for the rest of the artists they all have their place as not everyone can afford Banksy/Micallef/Neate. I think after the exhibition you will be shocked at the extent of Micallefs poularity and the sales in LA.
I dont think Neate and Micallef are hyped up at all. I was astounded by the quality of work at the Neate exhibition. Looking forward to seeing what Micallef has got up to but unfortuately cant make it. IMHO only these two artists can be compared to Banksy, the sales of their work at exhibitions and the big auction houses prove this. Personally Neate is my favourite artist of the 3 , as for the rest of the artists they all have their place as not everyone can afford Banksy/Micallef/Neate. I think after the exhibition you will be shocked at the extent of Micallefs poularity and the sales in LA.
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stuey09
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Price drop?, by stuey09 on Aug 13, 2007 16:32:48 GMT 1, Skanky when you say Neate and Micallef compare to Banksy I take it you're not talking about their style, but are talking about popularity and demand?
Skanky when you say Neate and Micallef compare to Banksy I take it you're not talking about their style, but are talking about popularity and demand?
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skanky
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Price drop?, by skanky on Aug 13, 2007 16:38:50 GMT 1, Sorry Stuey should have clarified that, their styles are very different.
Sorry Stuey should have clarified that, their styles are very different.
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stuey09
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Price drop?, by stuey09 on Aug 13, 2007 16:41:08 GMT 1, No worries mate. I love the work of both artists, but as you say their styles are so different.
No worries mate. I love the work of both artists, but as you say their styles are so different.
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corisma
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Price drop?, by corisma on Aug 13, 2007 16:47:16 GMT 1, I agree Skanky like i say i love Adams work & would be proud to have it hung up on my walls .. he's different class to most .. that's what really matters & why he'll continue to grow & stand the test of time
I agree Skanky like i say i love Adams work & would be proud to have it hung up on my walls .. he's different class to most .. that's what really matters & why he'll continue to grow & stand the test of time
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Price drop?, by dgb133 on Aug 13, 2007 18:06:56 GMT 1,
Actually if you can afford a signed Banksy then you can afford original works.
That's part of the balance. Personally I'm definitely not going to spend $10,000-$20000 on a print in an edition several hundred when that much will also get me an original painting or drawing. (Of course not by the prophet Banksy but by many many established artists)
Actually if you can afford a signed Banksy then you can afford original works.
That's part of the balance. Personally I'm definitely not going to spend $10,000-$20000 on a print in an edition several hundred when that much will also get me an original painting or drawing. (Of course not by the prophet Banksy but by many many established artists)
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Price drop?, by snakes on Aug 13, 2007 18:38:31 GMT 1, As someone said a little earlier, there are numerous factors involved. The market is over saturated, there is a limited market, there are people out there sitting on more prints than they have wall space to hang them (in nice portfolios under the bed) to name a few. As soon as the pinch/squeeze really takes hold a large amount of those prints that are being squirrelled under the bed for a rainy day will surface to see the light of day again. The next problem is that many of those prints that were by artists that have been overhyped and over inflated in price by interest by this forum (beejoir, mantis, dolk, etc etc) will be worth the best part of bugger all. Combine this with the fact that there will be competition in this off load of prints they may de-value even further and thus we get what is called "the Eelus effect" (prints that were purchased on ebay for ยฃ170 ish quid last year now lucky to sell at issue price). I am happy in that i can say that i no longer have any surplus prints sitting under my bed and that the ones that i have on my wall were all purchased at cost and if there is any drop in price, (which i dont care about anyroad) i will not be significantly worse off financially but if i were i can easilly offset that against what the prints have given to me in brightening up my living space and and by adding to my home environment... snakes are you retiring?
Yep thats all my ebay action for the year and as a result i have 2 Banksy's and a few other prints that i am happy with for the time being which have cost less than the usual arm and a leg.
That be said i may still accumulate the odd print under the bed until next years spring clean!
As someone said a little earlier, there are numerous factors involved. The market is over saturated, there is a limited market, there are people out there sitting on more prints than they have wall space to hang them (in nice portfolios under the bed) to name a few. As soon as the pinch/squeeze really takes hold a large amount of those prints that are being squirrelled under the bed for a rainy day will surface to see the light of day again. The next problem is that many of those prints that were by artists that have been overhyped and over inflated in price by interest by this forum (beejoir, mantis, dolk, etc etc) will be worth the best part of bugger all. Combine this with the fact that there will be competition in this off load of prints they may de-value even further and thus we get what is called "the Eelus effect" (prints that were purchased on ebay for ยฃ170 ish quid last year now lucky to sell at issue price). I am happy in that i can say that i no longer have any surplus prints sitting under my bed and that the ones that i have on my wall were all purchased at cost and if there is any drop in price, (which i dont care about anyroad) i will not be significantly worse off financially but if i were i can easilly offset that against what the prints have given to me in brightening up my living space and and by adding to my home environment... snakes are you retiring? Yep thats all my ebay action for the year and as a result i have 2 Banksy's and a few other prints that i am happy with for the time being which have cost less than the usual arm and a leg. That be said i may still accumulate the odd print under the bed until next years spring clean!
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Price drop?, by ricosg11 on Aug 13, 2007 18:48:17 GMT 1, i can understand where people would question Beejoir's staying power but lets not forget he has what 3 or 4 works under his belt one of which is arguably the best image of last year. Im not saying yay or nay because its waaaay to early to tell but to count him out already is just as rediculous. As with any scene be it music, art, sports, a few always rise to the top and in hindsight its always easy to see why.
i can understand where people would question Beejoir's staying power but lets not forget he has what 3 or 4 works under his belt one of which is arguably the best image of last year. Im not saying yay or nay because its waaaay to early to tell but to count him out already is just as rediculous. As with any scene be it music, art, sports, a few always rise to the top and in hindsight its always easy to see why.
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stuey09
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Price drop?, by stuey09 on Aug 13, 2007 18:54:17 GMT 1, i can understand where people would question Beejoir's staying power but lets not forget he has what 3 or 4 works under his belt one of which is arguably the best image of last year. Im not saying yay or nay because its waaaay to early to tell but to count him out already is just as rediculous. As with any scene be it music, art, sports, a few always rise to the top and in hindsight its always easy to see why.
Isn't there too much concern over an artists staying power? It smacks of investor speculation. Doesn't matter if its Banksy, Beejoir or Static; if the print gets me excited and I have the means to buy it, then that is what is really important.
i can understand where people would question Beejoir's staying power but lets not forget he has what 3 or 4 works under his belt one of which is arguably the best image of last year. Im not saying yay or nay because its waaaay to early to tell but to count him out already is just as rediculous. As with any scene be it music, art, sports, a few always rise to the top and in hindsight its always easy to see why. Isn't there too much concern over an artists staying power? It smacks of investor speculation. Doesn't matter if its Banksy, Beejoir or Static; if the print gets me excited and I have the means to buy it, then that is what is really important.
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foreman
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Price drop?, by foreman on Aug 13, 2007 19:07:29 GMT 1, i think the best judge of this current "price dip" is going to be the ending price for the signed barcode on ebay.co.uk.
i think the best judge of this current "price dip" is going to be the ending price for the signed barcode on ebay.co.uk.
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kiy
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Price drop?, by kiy on Aug 13, 2007 19:33:09 GMT 1, Being relatively new to the urban art market, I can see why people might be afraid to buy banksy prints on the secondary market. Prices have pretty much gone through the ceiling, gone through the roof and have now reached the stars... who are the only ppl who can afford them. Come on, seriously 20k for a print is a lot of money which most people donโt have. Fair enough I love the piece, I would enjoy it and it would certainly be a conversation piece when ppl come round (I wonโt mention the jealousy and envy it would cause). But if I thought in a few years time it would depreciate significantly I donโt think I could afford to buy it.
I donโt think the prices will crash but a lot does depend on the man to KEEP on releasing prints and keep pulling off pranks to keep ppl interested.
Something to keep you all amusedโฆThis is toooo funnyโฆ
Being relatively new to the urban art market, I can see why people might be afraid to buy banksy prints on the secondary market. Prices have pretty much gone through the ceiling, gone through the roof and have now reached the stars... who are the only ppl who can afford them. Come on, seriously 20k for a print is a lot of money which most people donโt have. Fair enough I love the piece, I would enjoy it and it would certainly be a conversation piece when ppl come round (I wonโt mention the jealousy and envy it would cause). But if I thought in a few years time it would depreciate significantly I donโt think I could afford to buy it.
I donโt think the prices will crash but a lot does depend on the man to KEEP on releasing prints and keep pulling off pranks to keep ppl interested.
Something to keep you all amusedโฆThis is toooo funnyโฆ
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alvington89
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Price drop?, by alvington89 on Aug 13, 2007 19:35:59 GMT 1, One thing is very apparent having been a member of this forum for some time now; There is a completely new demographic that are now interested in art all because of Banksy.
One thing is very apparent having been a member of this forum for some time now; There is a completely new demographic that are now interested in art all because of Banksy.
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Price drop?, by dgb133 on Aug 13, 2007 21:26:29 GMT 1,
Well it's pretty cool that a whole new realm of people is now so open and into art but... that's also what makes me nervous. Do they know what they're getting into? And will they still be into this scene in 5-10 years or bored of it when it's not the hip thing anymore? Will they run screaming when prices drop? We all have to start somewhere but it's part of the ingredient for a bubble...
Well it's pretty cool that a whole new realm of people is now so open and into art but... that's also what makes me nervous. Do they know what they're getting into? And will they still be into this scene in 5-10 years or bored of it when it's not the hip thing anymore? Will they run screaming when prices drop? We all have to start somewhere but it's part of the ingredient for a bubble...
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alvington89
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Price drop?, by alvington89 on Aug 13, 2007 22:51:35 GMT 1, I suppose it all depends if you're buying it because you like it or if you're buying it to make a profit on ebay later. Personally, I'm buying what I like and whilst it's very tempting to realise the extraordinary profit on some pieces, I would find it very hard to sell any of my favourites. No one is going to be happy if the value of their collection evaporates overnight. But if you're buying to keep, it's immaterial what fashion and circomstance dictate.
Well it's pretty cool that a whole new realm of people is now so open and into art but... that's also what makes me nervous. Do they know what they're getting into? And will they still be into this scene in 5-10 years or bored of it when it's not the hip thing anymore? Will they run screaming when prices drop? We all have to start somewhere but it's part of the ingredient for a bubble...
I suppose it all depends if you're buying it because you like it or if you're buying it to make a profit on ebay later. Personally, I'm buying what I like and whilst it's very tempting to realise the extraordinary profit on some pieces, I would find it very hard to sell any of my favourites. No one is going to be happy if the value of their collection evaporates overnight. But if you're buying to keep, it's immaterial what fashion and circomstance dictate. Well it's pretty cool that a whole new realm of people is now so open and into art but... that's also what makes me nervous. Do they know what they're getting into? And will they still be into this scene in 5-10 years or bored of it when it's not the hip thing anymore? Will they run screaming when prices drop? We all have to start somewhere but it's part of the ingredient for a bubble...
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Price drop?, by stillborncrisps on Aug 14, 2007 0:02:21 GMT 1, i think the best judge of this current "price dip" is going to be the ending price for the signed barcode on ebay.co.uk.
Out of curiosity why the barcode in particular? The guy's selling 3 other signed prints from the same time yet that one's racing ahead.
i think the best judge of this current "price dip" is going to be the ending price for the signed barcode on ebay.co.uk. Out of curiosity why the barcode in particular? The guy's selling 3 other signed prints from the same time yet that one's racing ahead.
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Price drop?, by dgb133 on Aug 14, 2007 0:47:17 GMT 1,
That's easier said than done. If you ever buy a print for 5k and the next year that thing is selling for say 2 or 3k, I'm telling you, it will have an effect on you, like it or not.
That's easier said than done. If you ever buy a print for 5k and the next year that thing is selling for say 2 or 3k, I'm telling you, it will have an effect on you, like it or not.
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Price drop?, by bobbymeachamjr on Aug 14, 2007 1:29:15 GMT 1, anybody applying the simplistic "buy what you like and you won't ever be disappointed" theory will have some serious hurt feelings.
anybody applying the simplistic "buy what you like and you won't ever be disappointed" theory will have some serious hurt feelings.
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