angryboy
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October 2007
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grafter in the guardian., by angryboy on Jul 10, 2008 15:18:20 GMT 1, Obvisouly poverty isn't going to be reduced overnight so what do you do in the mean time?
Obvisouly poverty isn't going to be reduced overnight so what do you do in the mean time?
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ratboy
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March 2008
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grafter in the guardian., by ratboy on Jul 10, 2008 15:20:32 GMT 1,
Here's a scan, I could only do A4:
Here's a scan, I could only do A4:
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grafter in the guardian., by Guest on Jul 10, 2008 15:31:58 GMT 1, in fact it really f**ks me off that people on a bansky forum talk of police stop and search powers ! dont you understand the message ? young kids with no hope who have to act tough , what are the polis going to do ? lock em up ? whats the point ? they need options in their lives , chances . my two classmates(with 17 others) murdered a guy when they were 15 , dont think they seen the light of day since 1987 . i am sure they have regrets but they didnt know any better ...... fantastic post mate. locking people up wont solve s**t. reduce poverty, give people hope and self respect and that might change things. it makes me laugh when people will happily go on about how they love / own Banksys art and its subervise anti nanny state / police messages and then have a 'bang em up' attitude. hypocrites!
fantastic post? come on, be serious. 15 year old kids killing someone and they didnt know any better? how is eradicating poverty going to solve this kind of problem? and what do you read as the meaning behind Banksy's "hoodie" piece at cans? do you think it is condoning knife crime or condemning it?
in fact it really f**ks me off that people on a bansky forum talk of police stop and search powers ! dont you understand the message ? young kids with no hope who have to act tough , what are the polis going to do ? lock em up ? whats the point ? they need options in their lives , chances . my two classmates(with 17 others) murdered a guy when they were 15 , dont think they seen the light of day since 1987 . i am sure they have regrets but they didnt know any better ...... fantastic post mate. locking people up wont solve s**t. reduce poverty, give people hope and self respect and that might change things. it makes me laugh when people will happily go on about how they love / own Banksys art and its subervise anti nanny state / police messages and then have a 'bang em up' attitude. hypocrites! fantastic post? come on, be serious. 15 year old kids killing someone and they didnt know any better? how is eradicating poverty going to solve this kind of problem? and what do you read as the meaning behind Banksy's "hoodie" piece at cans? do you think it is condoning knife crime or condemning it?
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kahuna
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February 2008
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grafter in the guardian., by kahuna on Jul 10, 2008 16:22:54 GMT 1, Nice gesture by Grafter.
It's about time sentences from the courts match the crime. Too many young and innocent lifes are being wasted.
Hoodies need to know that their choices come with consequences. Possession of a knife should lead to an instant jail sentence.
Nice gesture by Grafter.
It's about time sentences from the courts match the crime. Too many young and innocent lifes are being wasted.
Hoodies need to know that their choices come with consequences. Possession of a knife should lead to an instant jail sentence.
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Prescription Art
Art Gallery
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November 2007
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grafter in the guardian., by Prescription Art on Jul 10, 2008 16:27:14 GMT 1, Possession of a knife should lead to an instant jail sentence.
Does that include coming home from Woolworths with some new kitchen knives? Did you not ever have a pen knife in your pocket when you were in scouts & stuff?
As well as that there is no room in any jails to lock any more people up anyway.
Possession of a knife should lead to an instant jail sentence. Does that include coming home from Woolworths with some new kitchen knives? Did you not ever have a pen knife in your pocket when you were in scouts & stuff? As well as that there is no room in any jails to lock any more people up anyway.
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angryboy
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October 2007
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grafter in the guardian., by angryboy on Jul 10, 2008 16:34:12 GMT 1, As much as I do think carrying a knife - when it's obvisouly only there for aggressive purposes - should be an instant jail term, as just pointed out it would be a nightmare to implement.
As much as I do think carrying a knife - when it's obvisouly only there for aggressive purposes - should be an instant jail term, as just pointed out it would be a nightmare to implement.
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jellya
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November 2006
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grafter in the guardian., by jellya on Jul 10, 2008 16:35:48 GMT 1, Here's a scan, I could only do A4: Thanks ratboy. RESPECT Grafter.
Here's a scan, I could only do A4: Thanks ratboy. RESPECT Grafter.
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kahuna
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February 2008
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grafter in the guardian., by kahuna on Jul 10, 2008 16:37:54 GMT 1, Packaged kitchen knives and small pen knifes are not typically used in stabbings.
Obviously, the law would exempt people with tool bags going about normal course of business.
Packaged kitchen knives and small pen knifes are not typically used in stabbings.
Obviously, the law would exempt people with tool bags going about normal course of business.
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angryboy
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October 2007
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grafter in the guardian., by angryboy on Jul 10, 2008 16:44:24 GMT 1, Most incidents are kitchen knives though aren't they? Even if they're out their packaging at the time.
Most incidents are kitchen knives though aren't they? Even if they're out their packaging at the time.
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grafter in the guardian., by jackson.earth on Jul 10, 2008 16:47:29 GMT 1, teaching is the key. skills that are both captivating and engaging, like art, music - or skills to make money - mechanic, electrician.. starting from 13 onwards in urban communities.. showing them that there are options and that society has a place for them, that using weapons is the cowards way out, imprinting that the best way that is possible, teaching them the skills to discuss disagreements positively, negotiation, compromise.. and getting role models from local communities that the gangs respect - changing their mindset and getting them to lead.. no one in a gang gives a s**t about prison, it only adds to their 'rep'.
politicians need to engage with communities in a far more in-depth way.
it's going to take time, but things will have to change - if they don't, there's some bad times ahead..
now back to the art..
teaching is the key. skills that are both captivating and engaging, like art, music - or skills to make money - mechanic, electrician.. starting from 13 onwards in urban communities.. showing them that there are options and that society has a place for them, that using weapons is the cowards way out, imprinting that the best way that is possible, teaching them the skills to discuss disagreements positively, negotiation, compromise.. and getting role models from local communities that the gangs respect - changing their mindset and getting them to lead.. no one in a gang gives a s**t about prison, it only adds to their 'rep'.
politicians need to engage with communities in a far more in-depth way.
it's going to take time, but things will have to change - if they don't, there's some bad times ahead..
now back to the art..
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killerkellah
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September 2007
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grafter in the guardian., by killerkellah on Jul 10, 2008 17:26:50 GMT 1, fantastic post mate. locking people up wont solve s**t. reduce poverty, give people hope and self respect and that might change things. it makes me laugh when people will happily go on about how they love / own Banksys art and its subervise anti nanny state / police messages and then have a 'bang em up' attitude. hypocrites! fantastic post? come on, be serious. 15 year old kids killing someone and they didnt know any better? how is eradicating poverty going to solve this kind of problem? and what do you read as the meaning behind Banksy's "hoodie" piece at cans? do you think it is condoning knife crime or condemning it?
they obviously dont know any better otherwise they wouldnt do it, would they?
when i mean poverty I dont mean not having enough money to go out on a friday night. I mean real poverty, when parents cant feed themselves or their kids. Where crime is an easier way to make money then working - because people dont have any aspirations. I mean lack of education and the cycle of broken families and eradication of values.
Thats all linked to poverty. They have no self worth, no future and no one telling them there is more to life than gangs and violence.
When you give people hope then you have a chance. As for the Banksy hoodie piece, Im not condoning knife crime AT ALL. Im saying banging people up will not stop it. Do you honestly think locking up 15-16yr olds will make them better people??
I dont think Banksy was condoning or condeming it in his Cans piece, he was highlighting it. Though is seems the media were less interested in the messages than the spectacle.
fantastic post mate. locking people up wont solve s**t. reduce poverty, give people hope and self respect and that might change things. it makes me laugh when people will happily go on about how they love / own Banksys art and its subervise anti nanny state / police messages and then have a 'bang em up' attitude. hypocrites! fantastic post? come on, be serious. 15 year old kids killing someone and they didnt know any better? how is eradicating poverty going to solve this kind of problem? and what do you read as the meaning behind Banksy's "hoodie" piece at cans? do you think it is condoning knife crime or condemning it? they obviously dont know any better otherwise they wouldnt do it, would they? when i mean poverty I dont mean not having enough money to go out on a friday night. I mean real poverty, when parents cant feed themselves or their kids. Where crime is an easier way to make money then working - because people dont have any aspirations. I mean lack of education and the cycle of broken families and eradication of values. Thats all linked to poverty. They have no self worth, no future and no one telling them there is more to life than gangs and violence. When you give people hope then you have a chance. As for the Banksy hoodie piece, Im not condoning knife crime AT ALL. Im saying banging people up will not stop it. Do you honestly think locking up 15-16yr olds will make them better people?? I dont think Banksy was condoning or condeming it in his Cans piece, he was highlighting it. Though is seems the media were less interested in the messages than the spectacle.
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Heavyconsumer
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February 2008
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grafter in the guardian., by Heavyconsumer on Jul 10, 2008 17:53:57 GMT 1, my two classmates(with 17 others) murdered a guy when they were 15 , dont think they seen the light of day since 1987 . i am sure they have regrets but they didnt know any better ......
No offense, but no-one can make such a claim. It's not the governments job to teach kids the difference between right and wrong.
If they really didn't know any better, their parents need locking up too!
my two classmates(with 17 others) murdered a guy when they were 15 , dont think they seen the light of day since 1987 . i am sure they have regrets but they didnt know any better ......No offense, but no-one can make such a claim. It's not the governments job to teach kids the difference between right and wrong. If they really didn't know any better, their parents need locking up too!
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low3
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November 2010
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grafter in the guardian., by low3 on Jul 10, 2008 18:32:47 GMT 1, This subject really fucks me off. This country is too full of people who make excuses for being where they are, rather than scrambling and working hard to get themsleves out of the shitty situation they're in, they'l take the easy option and live on handouts, or worse still just go out on the rob.
How many times do you see it in the papers: "it wasn't his fault, he fell in with a bad crowd/ his dad left when he was 5/ they come from poverty." Its always excuse after excuse. I think parents should be held more accountable for the actions of the kids, cos the kids clearly don't give a shit. Maybe if it was down to the parents, they'd teach them a bit of respect.
You never had this problem 20-30 years ago, cos kids knew they'd either get a crack off their parents or off the local bobby. Kids these days don't give a shit: they know they're untouchable, and so their behaviour gets progressively worse til they end up knifing someone to death: then it all suddenly gets real. Their behaviour should never be allowed to get to that point, simple as. This country's government need to get tough and sort this out, cos it'll only get worse. Guns next, on a large scale.......
This subject really fucks me off. This country is too full of people who make excuses for being where they are, rather than scrambling and working hard to get themsleves out of the shitty situation they're in, they'l take the easy option and live on handouts, or worse still just go out on the rob.
How many times do you see it in the papers: "it wasn't his fault, he fell in with a bad crowd/ his dad left when he was 5/ they come from poverty." Its always excuse after excuse. I think parents should be held more accountable for the actions of the kids, cos the kids clearly don't give a shit. Maybe if it was down to the parents, they'd teach them a bit of respect.
You never had this problem 20-30 years ago, cos kids knew they'd either get a crack off their parents or off the local bobby. Kids these days don't give a shit: they know they're untouchable, and so their behaviour gets progressively worse til they end up knifing someone to death: then it all suddenly gets real. Their behaviour should never be allowed to get to that point, simple as. This country's government need to get tough and sort this out, cos it'll only get worse. Guns next, on a large scale.......
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pezlow
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January 2007
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grafter in the guardian., by pezlow on Jul 10, 2008 19:51:38 GMT 1, Oh yes they could, 1. get rid of that Human Rights Act
Which part of the Human Rights Act is it that you object to snakes?
Is it your right to life that you object to?
Or maybe your right to freedom from torture or slavery?
Perhaps you object to your right to liberty and a fair trial?
Or it might be that you have something against your right to freedom of thought, expression or assembly?
Perhaps you think it is wrong that you have a right to own property? or a right to an education? or a right to participate in free elections?
Actually thinking about it you are spot on - get rid of that good for nothing Human Rights Act.
Oh yes they could, 1. get rid of that Human Rights Act Which part of the Human Rights Act is it that you object to snakes? Is it your right to life that you object to? Or maybe your right to freedom from torture or slavery? Perhaps you object to your right to liberty and a fair trial? Or it might be that you have something against your right to freedom of thought, expression or assembly? Perhaps you think it is wrong that you have a right to own property? or a right to an education? or a right to participate in free elections? Actually thinking about it you are spot on - get rid of that good for nothing Human Rights Act.
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Heavyconsumer
Junior Member
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February 2008
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grafter in the guardian., by Heavyconsumer on Jul 10, 2008 20:16:38 GMT 1, This subject really f**ks me off. This country is too full of people who make excuses for being where they are, rather than scrambling and working hard to get themsleves out of the s**tty situation they're in, they'l take the easy option and live on handouts, or worse still just go out on the rob. How many times do you see it in the papers: "it wasn't his fault, he fell in with a bad crowd/ his dad left when he was 5/ they come from poverty." Its always excuse after excuse. I think parents should be held more accountable for the actions of the kids, cos the kids clearly don't give a s**t. Maybe if it was down to the parents, they'd teach them a bit of respect. You never had this problem 20-30 years ago, cos kids knew they'd either get a crack off their parents or off the local bobby. Kids these days don't give a s**t: they know they're untouchable, and so their behaviour gets progressively worse til they end up knifing someone to death: then it all suddenly gets real. Their behaviour should never be allowed to get to that point, simple as. This country's government need to get tough and sort this out, cos it'll only get worse. Guns next, on a large scale.......
SPOT ON!!!
The country I'm living in makes London and the UK look like a pretty non-violent place. However at the core of it's problems with violence, is impunity for minors and much worse education provided by the state. I don't believe that poverty ALONE is a cause, I see too many decent, poor people fighting to earn an honest living and bring their kids up to know the difference between being poor and behaving poorly.
Insufficient education (not necessarily in the formal sense) and poor parenting are the real causes imo. People are just too damned quick to look for excuses and not quick enough to take responsibility for the education and behaviour of their children.
This subject really f**ks me off. This country is too full of people who make excuses for being where they are, rather than scrambling and working hard to get themsleves out of the s**tty situation they're in, they'l take the easy option and live on handouts, or worse still just go out on the rob. How many times do you see it in the papers: "it wasn't his fault, he fell in with a bad crowd/ his dad left when he was 5/ they come from poverty." Its always excuse after excuse. I think parents should be held more accountable for the actions of the kids, cos the kids clearly don't give a s**t. Maybe if it was down to the parents, they'd teach them a bit of respect. You never had this problem 20-30 years ago, cos kids knew they'd either get a crack off their parents or off the local bobby. Kids these days don't give a s**t: they know they're untouchable, and so their behaviour gets progressively worse til they end up knifing someone to death: then it all suddenly gets real. Their behaviour should never be allowed to get to that point, simple as. This country's government need to get tough and sort this out, cos it'll only get worse. Guns next, on a large scale....... SPOT ON!!! The country I'm living in makes London and the UK look like a pretty non-violent place. However at the core of it's problems with violence, is impunity for minors and much worse education provided by the state. I don't believe that poverty ALONE is a cause, I see too many decent, poor people fighting to earn an honest living and bring their kids up to know the difference between being poor and behaving poorly. Insufficient education (not necessarily in the formal sense) and poor parenting are the real causes imo. People are just too damned quick to look for excuses and not quick enough to take responsibility for the education and behaviour of their children.
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kahuna
New Member
Posts โข 378
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February 2008
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grafter in the guardian., by kahuna on Jul 10, 2008 20:39:54 GMT 1, This subject really f**ks me off. This country is too full of people who make excuses for being where they are, rather than scrambling and working hard to get themsleves out of the s**tty situation they're in, they'l take the easy option and live on handouts, or worse still just go out on the rob. How many times do you see it in the papers: "it wasn't his fault, he fell in with a bad crowd/ his dad left when he was 5/ they come from poverty." Its always excuse after excuse. I think parents should be held more accountable for the actions of the kids, cos the kids clearly don't give a s**t. Maybe if it was down to the parents, they'd teach them a bit of respect. You never had this problem 20-30 years ago, cos kids knew they'd either get a crack off their parents or off the local bobby. Kids these days don't give a s**t: they know they're untouchable, and so their behaviour gets progressively worse til they end up knifing someone to death: then it all suddenly gets real. Their behaviour should never be allowed to get to that point, simple as. This country's government need to get tough and sort this out, cos it'll only get worse. Guns next, on a large scale....... SPOT ON!!! The country I'm living in makes London and the UK look like a pretty non-violent place. However at the core of it's problems with violence, is impunity for minors and much worse education provided by the state. I don't believe that poverty ALONE is a cause, I see too many decent, poor people fighting to earn an honest living and bring their kids up to know the difference between being poor and behaving poorly. Insufficient education (not necessarily in the formal sense) and poor parenting are the real causes imo. People are just too damned quick to look for excuses and not quick enough to take responsibility for the education and behaviour of their children.
At the risk of sounding like our grandparents, both of the above posts are spot-on.
The UK is now paying the price for a wasted generation that has been allowed to receive 'Money for Nothing and MTV". Discipline and respect should be taught in the home. What chance do teachers have in many cities when kids know nothing about either concept.
This subject really f**ks me off. This country is too full of people who make excuses for being where they are, rather than scrambling and working hard to get themsleves out of the s**tty situation they're in, they'l take the easy option and live on handouts, or worse still just go out on the rob. How many times do you see it in the papers: "it wasn't his fault, he fell in with a bad crowd/ his dad left when he was 5/ they come from poverty." Its always excuse after excuse. I think parents should be held more accountable for the actions of the kids, cos the kids clearly don't give a s**t. Maybe if it was down to the parents, they'd teach them a bit of respect. You never had this problem 20-30 years ago, cos kids knew they'd either get a crack off their parents or off the local bobby. Kids these days don't give a s**t: they know they're untouchable, and so their behaviour gets progressively worse til they end up knifing someone to death: then it all suddenly gets real. Their behaviour should never be allowed to get to that point, simple as. This country's government need to get tough and sort this out, cos it'll only get worse. Guns next, on a large scale....... SPOT ON!!! The country I'm living in makes London and the UK look like a pretty non-violent place. However at the core of it's problems with violence, is impunity for minors and much worse education provided by the state. I don't believe that poverty ALONE is a cause, I see too many decent, poor people fighting to earn an honest living and bring their kids up to know the difference between being poor and behaving poorly. Insufficient education (not necessarily in the formal sense) and poor parenting are the real causes imo. People are just too damned quick to look for excuses and not quick enough to take responsibility for the education and behaviour of their children. At the risk of sounding like our grandparents, both of the above posts are spot-on. The UK is now paying the price for a wasted generation that has been allowed to receive 'Money for Nothing and MTV". Discipline and respect should be taught in the home. What chance do teachers have in many cities when kids know nothing about either concept.
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grafter in the guardian., by felix on Jul 10, 2008 20:46:23 GMT 1, Try growing up in a hood surrounded with gang culture, people have no choice - i've seen documentaries it sucks and you should feel hugely privileged if you haven't had to.
I do fucking hate townies though.
Try growing up in a hood surrounded with gang culture, people have no choice - i've seen documentaries it sucks and you should feel hugely privileged if you haven't had to. I do fucking hate townies though.
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grafter in the guardian., by onemandown72 on Jul 10, 2008 20:49:46 GMT 1, A lot of this is a direct result of the death of society in the 80's and Thatcher's Britain. The generation brought up in that era are now the parents of the children running riot and causing problems. Thatcher taught everyone to look out for themselves and no-one else. Ultimately this has manifested itself in most parents abdicating any responsibilty for bringing their children up and would rather allow them to make their own decisions, and as a result you have a lord of the flies scenario in almost all cities in the UK. This coupled with parents sh*t scared to let their kids out of their site leads to a mindset where children expect there to be danger and so actively look for it. Yet whilst people decry the state of society, no-one wants to fund solutions. Education is a major key in resolving this, yet teachers and schools (notably in innercities) are underfunded and un-appealing as a career choice. We have a something for nothing society that is easy to sensationalise in the media and nobody wants to accept that to resovle this is expensive and time consuming. Society does not work in isolation, it depends on strength of community It's a deep rooted problem that will only change over a long period of time.
A lot of this is a direct result of the death of society in the 80's and Thatcher's Britain. The generation brought up in that era are now the parents of the children running riot and causing problems. Thatcher taught everyone to look out for themselves and no-one else. Ultimately this has manifested itself in most parents abdicating any responsibilty for bringing their children up and would rather allow them to make their own decisions, and as a result you have a lord of the flies scenario in almost all cities in the UK. This coupled with parents sh*t scared to let their kids out of their site leads to a mindset where children expect there to be danger and so actively look for it. Yet whilst people decry the state of society, no-one wants to fund solutions. Education is a major key in resolving this, yet teachers and schools (notably in innercities) are underfunded and un-appealing as a career choice. We have a something for nothing society that is easy to sensationalise in the media and nobody wants to accept that to resovle this is expensive and time consuming. Society does not work in isolation, it depends on strength of community It's a deep rooted problem that will only change over a long period of time.
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nombei
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September 2006
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grafter in the guardian., by nombei on Jul 10, 2008 21:04:22 GMT 1, most of the violence that plagued my neighborhood in San Francisco was due to rival gangs trying to control who sold drugs in the area. we would go thru a cycle every 2 years or so where there would be a series of shootings / murders on my street until the regular people who lived in the area raised a ruckus. then the police would step up patrols and things would calm down again.
most of the people involved in the shootings were from the low income housing project near where i lived and another project that was 10 or so blocks away. i'd say most of the kids involved in this stuff didn't attend school, didn't have jobs and probably lived with one parent who also didn't have a job.
for the parent(s), they were just scraping by on welfare and for the kids the attitude was "i can make more selling drugs in one hour than i can working some crappy job all week". and while that last sentiment was surely true, the real problem is these kids have no education or skills other than what they've learned on the street and they have no positive role models to guide them.
most of the violence that plagued my neighborhood in San Francisco was due to rival gangs trying to control who sold drugs in the area. we would go thru a cycle every 2 years or so where there would be a series of shootings / murders on my street until the regular people who lived in the area raised a ruckus. then the police would step up patrols and things would calm down again.
most of the people involved in the shootings were from the low income housing project near where i lived and another project that was 10 or so blocks away. i'd say most of the kids involved in this stuff didn't attend school, didn't have jobs and probably lived with one parent who also didn't have a job.
for the parent(s), they were just scraping by on welfare and for the kids the attitude was "i can make more selling drugs in one hour than i can working some crappy job all week". and while that last sentiment was surely true, the real problem is these kids have no education or skills other than what they've learned on the street and they have no positive role models to guide them.
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shaunyboy
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March 2008
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grafter in the guardian., by shaunyboy on Jul 10, 2008 21:21:00 GMT 1, Capitalism kills more kids than knives. Discuss.
Capitalism kills more kids than knives. Discuss.
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Pistol
Artist
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February 2008
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grafter in the guardian., by Pistol on Jul 10, 2008 21:33:41 GMT 1, Cowards carry knives! (Full stop)!
Cowards carry knives! (Full stop)!
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grafter in the guardian., by felix on Jul 10, 2008 21:37:15 GMT 1, Cowards carry knives! (Full stop)!
Thats why I carry an AK47
Cowards carry knives! (Full stop)! Thats why I carry an AK47
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zippyblip
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June 2006
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grafter in the guardian., by zippyblip on Jul 10, 2008 22:07:24 GMT 1, A lot of this is a direct result of the death of society in the 80's and Thatcher's Britain. The generation brought up in that era are now the parents of the children running riot and causing problems. Thatcher taught everyone to look out for themselves and no-one else. Ultimately this has manifested itself in most parents abdicating any responsibilty for bringing their children up and would rather allow them to make their own decisions, and as a result you have a lord of the flies scenario in almost all cities in the UK. This coupled with parents sh*t scared to let their kids out of their site leads to a mindset where children expect there to be danger and so actively look for it. Yet whilst people decry the state of society, no-one wants to fund solutions. Education is a major key in resolving this, yet teachers and schools (notably in innercities) are underfunded and un-appealing as a career choice. We have a something for nothing society that is easy to sensationalise in the media and nobody wants to accept that to resovle this is expensive and time consuming. Society does not work in isolation, it depends on strength of community It's a deep rooted problem that will only change over a long period of time.
First of all - I think this is turning into one of the most interesting threads we've had in a long time, and with minimal flaming - well done everyone.
I'm no expert, but lately I have been reading up on some of the political theory around this area, and what we are seeing today could be the ultimate expression of what was identified as 'negative liberty' by Isaiah Berlin (check out en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_Berlin). In effect this means that the individual is free to act without let or hinderence from the state. Positive liberty is the reverse- the state tells you how to be free. Revolutions are based on positive liberty, and almost always lead to tyranny, with the ultimate expression being Year zero and the Khmer Rouge.
So what does this mean? In western society today the only function of government is to provide an infrastructure within which you are free to do as you please, providing you refrain from interfering with someone else's liberty. This means the sole purpose of government is not to tell you how to live, but instead to merely provide an environment in which you can do as you wish. This is why you hear endlessly about 'choice', performance targets and so on. But there is a flaw in this thinking. If all you do is give 'the people' what you think they want, often based on a very short term perspective (like a election cycle....) you end up with policies and laws that are at best reactive and at worst not in the long term interests of society. For example, publishing league tables has led to mass movement of the middle classes to high performing school catchment areas (incidentally also having the happy side effect of massively distorting housing markets), and as a result means that lower performing schools get worse, and in the end segregates our society.
So what happens? - Well maybe what we have now, a society without any real leadership, where our youth feel they are allowed to act in any way they wish, a school system in free-fall actually being destroyed by league tables, meaningless metrics from the government that don't link with any of our real experiences and ultimately a complete collapse in social mobility- which only serves to deepen the resentment of those at the bottom. Add to this the final irony that our real freedoms, most notably habeas corpus (the freedom not to be imprisoned without trial), are actually being diminished.
I really can't do justice to these ideas and hope I haven't bored you too much, this is an area I feel passionately about and wish our political classes would engage with. If you are interested, look up Adam Curtis, the BBC documentary maker. He has made some fantastic programs on these ideas such as "the century of the self"....Fantastic viewing that really makes you think.
Thank you for listening.
A lot of this is a direct result of the death of society in the 80's and Thatcher's Britain. The generation brought up in that era are now the parents of the children running riot and causing problems. Thatcher taught everyone to look out for themselves and no-one else. Ultimately this has manifested itself in most parents abdicating any responsibilty for bringing their children up and would rather allow them to make their own decisions, and as a result you have a lord of the flies scenario in almost all cities in the UK. This coupled with parents sh*t scared to let their kids out of their site leads to a mindset where children expect there to be danger and so actively look for it. Yet whilst people decry the state of society, no-one wants to fund solutions. Education is a major key in resolving this, yet teachers and schools (notably in innercities) are underfunded and un-appealing as a career choice. We have a something for nothing society that is easy to sensationalise in the media and nobody wants to accept that to resovle this is expensive and time consuming. Society does not work in isolation, it depends on strength of community It's a deep rooted problem that will only change over a long period of time. First of all - I think this is turning into one of the most interesting threads we've had in a long time, and with minimal flaming - well done everyone. I'm no expert, but lately I have been reading up on some of the political theory around this area, and what we are seeing today could be the ultimate expression of what was identified as 'negative liberty' by Isaiah Berlin (check out en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_Berlin). In effect this means that the individual is free to act without let or hinderence from the state. Positive liberty is the reverse- the state tells you how to be free. Revolutions are based on positive liberty, and almost always lead to tyranny, with the ultimate expression being Year zero and the Khmer Rouge. So what does this mean? In western society today the only function of government is to provide an infrastructure within which you are free to do as you please, providing you refrain from interfering with someone else's liberty. This means the sole purpose of government is not to tell you how to live, but instead to merely provide an environment in which you can do as you wish. This is why you hear endlessly about 'choice', performance targets and so on. But there is a flaw in this thinking. If all you do is give 'the people' what you think they want, often based on a very short term perspective (like a election cycle....) you end up with policies and laws that are at best reactive and at worst not in the long term interests of society. For example, publishing league tables has led to mass movement of the middle classes to high performing school catchment areas (incidentally also having the happy side effect of massively distorting housing markets), and as a result means that lower performing schools get worse, and in the end segregates our society. So what happens? - Well maybe what we have now, a society without any real leadership, where our youth feel they are allowed to act in any way they wish, a school system in free-fall actually being destroyed by league tables, meaningless metrics from the government that don't link with any of our real experiences and ultimately a complete collapse in social mobility- which only serves to deepen the resentment of those at the bottom. Add to this the final irony that our real freedoms, most notably habeas corpus (the freedom not to be imprisoned without trial), are actually being diminished. I really can't do justice to these ideas and hope I haven't bored you too much, this is an area I feel passionately about and wish our political classes would engage with. If you are interested, look up Adam Curtis, the BBC documentary maker. He has made some fantastic programs on these ideas such as "the century of the self"....Fantastic viewing that really makes you think. Thank you for listening.
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grafter in the guardian., by onemandown72 on Jul 10, 2008 22:24:02 GMT 1, I'd agree with what you're saying, and am quite tired so haven't got great mental space to explain more, I see all of what has developed a huge irony. We are all complicit in this by believing we can choose how we want to lead out lives, ultimately we get exactly what we don't want - broken society and a the total opposite of what we set out to achieve.
I'd agree with what you're saying, and am quite tired so haven't got great mental space to explain more, I see all of what has developed a huge irony. We are all complicit in this by believing we can choose how we want to lead out lives, ultimately we get exactly what we don't want - broken society and a the total opposite of what we set out to achieve.
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moleman
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March 2008
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grafter in the guardian., by moleman on Jul 10, 2008 22:33:36 GMT 1, well said zippyblip dumbing down the nation with shit tv and uneducated crap. Film about confineing and new world order with mass culling if you dont follow the rules. Food with less goodness and more salt and msg and jabs for every thing you can think of. Research this stuff people zeitgeist is a good start then new world order. Read into it what you like you cant stop it if its true. The food we eat is crap aspartaine in your diet coke can be cancerous the americans banned it thats why they have floride. They once put tooth paste on a rats back for 4 months the flodide entered through the skin and gave the rat liver failure. Im not hyed on this stuff but there is a lot in it and as zippy says its like the matrix you have wat you have to keep quite and think your a good member of society.
well said zippyblip dumbing down the nation with shit tv and uneducated crap. Film about confineing and new world order with mass culling if you dont follow the rules. Food with less goodness and more salt and msg and jabs for every thing you can think of. Research this stuff people zeitgeist is a good start then new world order. Read into it what you like you cant stop it if its true. The food we eat is crap aspartaine in your diet coke can be cancerous the americans banned it thats why they have floride. They once put tooth paste on a rats back for 4 months the flodide entered through the skin and gave the rat liver failure. Im not hyed on this stuff but there is a lot in it and as zippy says its like the matrix you have wat you have to keep quite and think your a good member of society.
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killerkellah
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September 2007
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grafter in the guardian., by killerkellah on Jul 10, 2008 22:37:15 GMT 1, I think the divide between richer and poorer is bigger than ever and we now have a huge underclass in this society who most people (myself included) dont even realize exist.
yes its is the parents fault but they are often victims themselves, like their parents before them and so on and so on. its too easy to say lock them all up. we dont have the money or the infrastructure to do that and how many people does it truly reform?
I think the divide between richer and poorer is bigger than ever and we now have a huge underclass in this society who most people (myself included) dont even realize exist.
yes its is the parents fault but they are often victims themselves, like their parents before them and so on and so on. its too easy to say lock them all up. we dont have the money or the infrastructure to do that and how many people does it truly reform?
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moleman
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March 2008
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grafter in the guardian., by moleman on Jul 10, 2008 23:04:23 GMT 1, the media is to powerful people live and breath that stuff they go where they like and do what they like when they like and they can be manipulated as much as any goverment. People wont let there children walk to school any more because if they do and they get taken or killed the parents are the bad ones for letting them walk play and learn about life. Dont get me wrong no one deserve for this sh=t to happen but let kids climb trees let them ride there bikes they will only rebel later on
the media is to powerful people live and breath that stuff they go where they like and do what they like when they like and they can be manipulated as much as any goverment. People wont let there children walk to school any more because if they do and they get taken or killed the parents are the bad ones for letting them walk play and learn about life. Dont get me wrong no one deserve for this sh=t to happen but let kids climb trees let them ride there bikes they will only rebel later on
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zippyblip
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June 2006
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grafter in the guardian., by zippyblip on Jul 10, 2008 23:28:58 GMT 1, Couldn't agree more - and I used to have an Austin Metro (although I am very happy to say I don't any more, it was brown, nuff said).
Sadly teaching will never be a top paid profession but we are now in a position where it's not even attractive. Part of that also relates to the fact that intellect and success through hard work are no longer seen as socially desirable - the opposite in fact.
Not long ago the great thinkers of our age were held up as celebrities. Great economists would appear in Vogue magazine. Fundamentally this established the link between hard work and success, and that success from hard work was something to be celebrated and respected.
Today we have a strange Orwellian world where celebrity is not earned, it is 'conveyed' and then perpetuated by our media, fundamentally to sell products (think Hello, the Fox network, and (God help me) Gracia et al).
This has led us to the strange netherworld where people become celebrities through 'big brother' or by marrying footballers. This again reinforces the notion in our youth that fame and success do not require hard work and tough times. Being really, really good at something is really, really hard to do and requires sacrifices- somehow as a society we seem to have forgotten that.
I'm concious that all I am doing is adding to the issues and not providing any solutions. Problem is, I just don't have any. Off to bed to ponder. Will have a decent manifesto by the morning.......maybe.
Couldn't agree more - and I used to have an Austin Metro (although I am very happy to say I don't any more, it was brown, nuff said). Sadly teaching will never be a top paid profession but we are now in a position where it's not even attractive. Part of that also relates to the fact that intellect and success through hard work are no longer seen as socially desirable - the opposite in fact. Not long ago the great thinkers of our age were held up as celebrities. Great economists would appear in Vogue magazine. Fundamentally this established the link between hard work and success, and that success from hard work was something to be celebrated and respected. Today we have a strange Orwellian world where celebrity is not earned, it is 'conveyed' and then perpetuated by our media, fundamentally to sell products (think Hello, the Fox network, and (God help me) Gracia et al). This has led us to the strange netherworld where people become celebrities through 'big brother' or by marrying footballers. This again reinforces the notion in our youth that fame and success do not require hard work and tough times. Being really, really good at something is really, really hard to do and requires sacrifices- somehow as a society we seem to have forgotten that. I'm concious that all I am doing is adding to the issues and not providing any solutions. Problem is, I just don't have any. Off to bed to ponder. Will have a decent manifesto by the morning.......maybe.
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nombei
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September 2006
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grafter in the guardian., by nombei on Jul 10, 2008 23:45:44 GMT 1, not sure about the situation in the UK, but i seldom hear politicians in the US give any mention to the chasm that now separates the rich from the poor. i guess since they are on the better side of that equation, it's not so important.
oh well, the earth will take care of the "people problem" in due course.
not sure about the situation in the UK, but i seldom hear politicians in the US give any mention to the chasm that now separates the rich from the poor. i guess since they are on the better side of that equation, it's not so important.
oh well, the earth will take care of the "people problem" in due course.
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low3
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November 2010
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grafter in the guardian., by low3 on Jul 11, 2008 0:31:59 GMT 1, A lot of the probelm is that politicians do not live in the real world: there's a massive gulf between the real world that they perceive, and that which the rest of us live in. How can you know how real people live when you receive a huge salary from the government, and live in a bubble where you don't really have any contact with the 'real' world.
Thats why they see no real problem with imigration (because in the circles they move in, they probably never even see any imigrants), same goes with lawless kids. If they have kids themselves, they no doubt go to private schools, and as such, the kids they see and interact with do not share the behaviourisms that the lower class kids do.
Until politicians decide to get to grips with the fact that the majority of people live ina completely different world to that which they do, little will happen.
That said, parents DO have the biggest responsibilty to shape the people that their children become. Maybe a case for compulsory sterilisation of everyone at the age of 12, and the requirment to apply to have children. Surely this could be one of the best ways of ensuring that people are fit and capable of raising children properly? (I'm aware this does raise many more arguments that it solves, but hey, it's a debate)
I'm sick of seeing little kids getting pregnant young, sometimes for the pure reason that they know the government will look after them financially and set them up with a house. It beats working for a living!! Anyone in the UK remember Lizzie Bardsley, that scroat from wife swap, who was coining in about ยฃ38k per year in benefits?.....
A lot of the probelm is that politicians do not live in the real world: there's a massive gulf between the real world that they perceive, and that which the rest of us live in. How can you know how real people live when you receive a huge salary from the government, and live in a bubble where you don't really have any contact with the 'real' world.
Thats why they see no real problem with imigration (because in the circles they move in, they probably never even see any imigrants), same goes with lawless kids. If they have kids themselves, they no doubt go to private schools, and as such, the kids they see and interact with do not share the behaviourisms that the lower class kids do.
Until politicians decide to get to grips with the fact that the majority of people live ina completely different world to that which they do, little will happen.
That said, parents DO have the biggest responsibilty to shape the people that their children become. Maybe a case for compulsory sterilisation of everyone at the age of 12, and the requirment to apply to have children. Surely this could be one of the best ways of ensuring that people are fit and capable of raising children properly? (I'm aware this does raise many more arguments that it solves, but hey, it's a debate)
I'm sick of seeing little kids getting pregnant young, sometimes for the pure reason that they know the government will look after them financially and set them up with a house. It beats working for a living!! Anyone in the UK remember Lizzie Bardsley, that scroat from wife swap, who was coining in about ยฃ38k per year in benefits?.....
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