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Fans V Investors, by Daniel Silk on Dec 1, 2007 16:45:51 GMT 1, Sort of following on from the Micallef thread.
I wonder if as the values and starting gallery prices go up! the stability of the artist goes down  What I mean is, when things are at a reasonably affordable price its the true fans of the artists work that are buying ;D When things are costing and selling for ยฃ1,000+ then the numbers of investors and flippers increases  pushing out the true fans who are then forced off to look at other artists work. Any small blip in the artists popularity and the flippers and collectors flood ebay and the auction houses 
Sort of following on from the Micallef thread. I wonder if as the values and starting gallery prices go up! the stability of the artist goes down What I mean is, when things are at a reasonably affordable price its the true fans of the artists work that are buying ;D When things are costing and selling for ยฃ1,000+ then the numbers of investors and flippers increases pushing out the true fans who are then forced off to look at other artists work. Any small blip in the artists popularity and the flippers and collectors flood ebay and the auction houses |
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Fans V Investors, by manchestermike on Dec 1, 2007 16:52:15 GMT 1, Sort of following on from the Micallef thread. I wonder if as the values and starting gallery prices go up! the stability of the artist goes down What I mean is, when things are at a reasonably affordable price its the true fans of the artists work that are buying ;D When things are costing and selling for ยฃ1,000+ then the numbers of investors and flippers increases pushing out the true fans who are then forced off to look at other artists work. Any small blip in the artists popularity and the flippers and collectors flood ebay and the auction houses
I see what you mean, and to an extent I agree, but I think starting prices must go up to reflect the artist's current position... there's no point selling something at ยฃ100 that will go for ยฃ3000+ (a signed Banksy for example)... which is why I think after the next two there will be no more POW Banksys
Sort of following on from the Micallef thread. I wonder if as the values and starting gallery prices go up! the stability of the artist goes down What I mean is, when things are at a reasonably affordable price its the true fans of the artists work that are buying ;D When things are costing and selling for ยฃ1,000+ then the numbers of investors and flippers increases pushing out the true fans who are then forced off to look at other artists work. Any small blip in the artists popularity and the flippers and collectors flood ebay and the auction houses I see what you mean, and to an extent I agree, but I think starting prices must go up to reflect the artist's current position... there's no point selling something at ยฃ100 that will go for ยฃ3000+ (a signed Banksy for example)... which is why I think after the next two there will be no more POW Banksys |
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Fans V Investors, by Daniel Silk on Dec 1, 2007 17:04:43 GMT 1, Sort of following on from the Micallef thread. I wonder if as the values and starting gallery prices go up! the stability of the artist goes down What I mean is, when things are at a reasonably affordable price its the true fans of the artists work that are buying ;D When things are costing and selling for ยฃ1,000+ then the numbers of investors and flippers increases pushing out the true fans who are then forced off to look at other artists work. Any small blip in the artists popularity and the flippers and collectors flood ebay and the auction houses I see what you mean, and to an extent I agree, but I think starting prices must go up to reflect the artist's current position... there's no point selling something at ยฃ100 that will go for ยฃ3000+ (a signed Banksy for example)... which is why I think after the next two there will be no more POW Banksys
Yeah, its a bit of an uncontrollable animal once it gets going
Sort of following on from the Micallef thread. I wonder if as the values and starting gallery prices go up! the stability of the artist goes down What I mean is, when things are at a reasonably affordable price its the true fans of the artists work that are buying ;D When things are costing and selling for ยฃ1,000+ then the numbers of investors and flippers increases pushing out the true fans who are then forced off to look at other artists work. Any small blip in the artists popularity and the flippers and collectors flood ebay and the auction houses I see what you mean, and to an extent I agree, but I think starting prices must go up to reflect the artist's current position... there's no point selling something at ยฃ100 that will go for ยฃ3000+ (a signed Banksy for example)... which is why I think after the next two there will be no more POW Banksys Yeah, its a bit of an uncontrollable animal once it gets going |
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Avian Security
Artist
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November 2007
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Fans V Investors, by Avian Security on Dec 1, 2007 18:16:46 GMT 1, Sort of following on from the Micallef thread. I wonder if as the values and starting gallery prices go up! the stability of the artist goes down What I mean is, when things are at a reasonably affordable price its the true fans of the artists work that are buying ;D When things are costing and selling for ยฃ1,000+ then the numbers of investors and flippers increases pushing out the true fans who are then forced off to look at other artists work. Any small blip in the artists popularity and the flippers and collectors flood ebay and the auction houses
On the other hand, it hasn't worked out for the flippers of Micallef 400-ed lithos, has it? Those morons who bought up several sets of 4 are currently looking at a ยฃ2500 loss on 2 sets, at least.
But it doesn't really matter. Fans who just love art on their walls, will always be able to find awesome new artists who are still selling cheap. With the market as skewed as it is, you can pick up original pieces for a few hundred ยฃ, by some brilliant artists. Compare that for ยฃ1000 for a not-so-limited edition. No contest.
Sort of following on from the Micallef thread. I wonder if as the values and starting gallery prices go up! the stability of the artist goes down What I mean is, when things are at a reasonably affordable price its the true fans of the artists work that are buying ;D When things are costing and selling for ยฃ1,000+ then the numbers of investors and flippers increases pushing out the true fans who are then forced off to look at other artists work. Any small blip in the artists popularity and the flippers and collectors flood ebay and the auction houses On the other hand, it hasn't worked out for the flippers of Micallef 400-ed lithos, has it? Those morons who bought up several sets of 4 are currently looking at a ยฃ2500 loss on 2 sets, at least. But it doesn't really matter. Fans who just love art on their walls, will always be able to find awesome new artists who are still selling cheap. With the market as skewed as it is, you can pick up original pieces for a few hundred ยฃ, by some brilliant artists. Compare that for ยฃ1000 for a not-so-limited edition. No contest. |
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Fans V Investors, by Daniel Silk on Dec 1, 2007 18:19:34 GMT 1, Yep! ;D plenty of new artists about that are affordable ;D
Yep! ;D plenty of new artists about that are affordable ;D
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ctc2
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March 2007
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Fans V Investors, by ctc2 on Dec 1, 2007 18:23:51 GMT 1, It has worked that way for me. As Banksy has gotten out of control, I have just moved on to others I find interesting and affordable.
It has worked that way for me. As Banksy has gotten out of control, I have just moved on to others I find interesting and affordable.
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loucastel
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October 2007
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Fans V Investors, by loucastel on Dec 1, 2007 18:43:32 GMT 1, A lot of artists have their five minutes of fame and then dissapear back into the woodwork, artists who have ben selling for thousands today will be selling for hundreds tommorrow, Micallef being a case in point , I was talking to a gallery owner the other day who knows micallef well and he said the way prices for his work has gone is not what he wanted as he knows that the quick spurt to fame can herald an even quicker fall, it has happened time and again with the contempory market and it is now happening here, once prices have gone down it is very hard for them to go back up, at the end of the day to a lot of people art is just another commodity, to be bought and sold as the market dictates with artists fluctuating accordingly, which for the serious art lover who doesnt want to turn a quick profit is great as there are a lot of new talent out there and it makes you look for them, so if you buy art and the price goes down who cares, I certainly dont.
A lot of artists have their five minutes of fame and then dissapear back into the woodwork, artists who have ben selling for thousands today will be selling for hundreds tommorrow, Micallef being a case in point , I was talking to a gallery owner the other day who knows micallef well and he said the way prices for his work has gone is not what he wanted as he knows that the quick spurt to fame can herald an even quicker fall, it has happened time and again with the contempory market and it is now happening here, once prices have gone down it is very hard for them to go back up, at the end of the day to a lot of people art is just another commodity, to be bought and sold as the market dictates with artists fluctuating accordingly, which for the serious art lover who doesnt want to turn a quick profit is great as there are a lot of new talent out there and it makes you look for them, so if you buy art and the price goes down who cares, I certainly dont.
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Fans V Investors, by Daniel Silk on Dec 1, 2007 18:47:43 GMT 1, A lot of artists have their five minutes of fame and then dissapear back into the woodwork, artists who have ben selling for thousands today will be selling for hundreds tommorrow, Micallef being a case in point , I was talking to a gallery owner the other day who knows micallef well and he said the way prices for his work has gone is not what he wanted as he knows that the quick spurt to fame can herald an even quicker fall, it has happened time and again with the contempory market and it is now happening here, once prices have gone down it is very hard for them to go back up, at the end of the day to a lot of people art is just another commodity, to be bought and sold as the market dictates with artists fluctuating accordingly, which for the serious art lover who doesnt want to turn a quick profit is great as there are a lot of new talent out there and it makes you look for them, so if you buy art and the price goes down who cares, I certainly dont.
+Respect  well said! ;D
A lot of artists have their five minutes of fame and then dissapear back into the woodwork, artists who have ben selling for thousands today will be selling for hundreds tommorrow, Micallef being a case in point , I was talking to a gallery owner the other day who knows micallef well and he said the way prices for his work has gone is not what he wanted as he knows that the quick spurt to fame can herald an even quicker fall, it has happened time and again with the contempory market and it is now happening here, once prices have gone down it is very hard for them to go back up, at the end of the day to a lot of people art is just another commodity, to be bought and sold as the market dictates with artists fluctuating accordingly, which for the serious art lover who doesnt want to turn a quick profit is great as there are a lot of new talent out there and it makes you look for them, so if you buy art and the price goes down who cares, I certainly dont. +Respect well said! ;D |
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Fans V Investors, by numusic on Dec 1, 2007 19:02:42 GMT 1, A lot of artists have their five minutes of fame and then dissapear back into the woodwork, artists who have ben selling for thousands today will be selling for hundreds tommorrow, Micallef being a case in point , I was talking to a gallery owner the other day who knows micallef well and he said the way prices for his work has gone is not what he wanted as he knows that the quick spurt to fame can herald an even quicker fall, it has happened time and again with the contempory market and it is now happening here, once prices have gone down it is very hard for them to go back up, at the end of the day to a lot of people art is just another commodity, to be bought and sold as the market dictates with artists fluctuating accordingly, which for the serious art lover who doesnt want to turn a quick profit is great as there are a lot of new talent out there and it makes you look for them, so if you buy art and the price goes down who cares, I certainly dont.
Well said mate.... there are quite a few new "gallerists" who are only interested in a quick buck.. even at the relatively low dollar entry stage...$50 print or $500 dollar print...same quality, similar profile, same edition run..why ?. Same applies on the higher level. A little the responsibility of the artists also.. I guess a lot think it's a case of "it's now or never" and fall for the sales patter of a gallerist... whether it can be maintained is rarely discussed... so mostly it's either go along with the reality of being a struggling artist for the next forever.. or grab the chance when it comes and hope your manager/rep knows what the hell he's doing..a tough call by any standards. Especially if you've got something to say or a talent.
I always thought one of the most attractive parts of this movement was how the artists had taken control of the means of production and distribution of their own work and had cut out the middleman gallery bullshit. I guess the monied classes just don't trust their own judgement. Sad development...I also think the oft quoted " cream will always rise to the top " is a massive fucking myth. The more artists selling through their own sites, the better.
A lot of artists have their five minutes of fame and then dissapear back into the woodwork, artists who have ben selling for thousands today will be selling for hundreds tommorrow, Micallef being a case in point , I was talking to a gallery owner the other day who knows micallef well and he said the way prices for his work has gone is not what he wanted as he knows that the quick spurt to fame can herald an even quicker fall, it has happened time and again with the contempory market and it is now happening here, once prices have gone down it is very hard for them to go back up, at the end of the day to a lot of people art is just another commodity, to be bought and sold as the market dictates with artists fluctuating accordingly, which for the serious art lover who doesnt want to turn a quick profit is great as there are a lot of new talent out there and it makes you look for them, so if you buy art and the price goes down who cares, I certainly dont. Well said mate.... there are quite a few new "gallerists" who are only interested in a quick buck.. even at the relatively low dollar entry stage...$50 print or $500 dollar print...same quality, similar profile, same edition run..why ?. Same applies on the higher level. A little the responsibility of the artists also.. I guess a lot think it's a case of "it's now or never" and fall for the sales patter of a gallerist... whether it can be maintained is rarely discussed... so mostly it's either go along with the reality of being a struggling artist for the next forever.. or grab the chance when it comes and hope your manager/rep knows what the hell he's doing..a tough call by any standards. Especially if you've got something to say or a talent. I always thought one of the most attractive parts of this movement was how the artists had taken control of the means of production and distribution of their own work and had cut out the middleman gallery bullshit. I guess the monied classes just don't trust their own judgement. Sad development...I also think the oft quoted " cream will always rise to the top " is a massive fucking myth. The more artists selling through their own sites, the better. |
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afroken
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Fans V Investors, by afroken on Dec 1, 2007 19:23:26 GMT 1, Isn't the problem here that Laz has broken all the rules and tried to set the price point at auction? A good dealer choses their clients carefully and keeps the prices realistic (regardless of the secondary market). Of course as an artist's career develops their prices should go up in the primary market, but not ten fold in a year. It's a 2 way relationship between gallery and client that protects the artist. To let the auction houses dictate (or even to price fix the auctions yourself) is to throw an artist to the lions and see if he survives. It's selfish, destructive and very naive of the dealer to do this. If I were Micallef I'd be having some sleepless nights right now and asking myself some very searching questions. Or alternatively I might be lying in bed counting the money I made in one show and thinking 'f**k it, I'm rich beyond my wildest dreams'.
The bi-product of this stupidity is an army of flippers who think that if prices go up by 1000% in a year then it follows that they should go up by about 100% in a couple of months. But you can't blame them. Blame the gallery for using them to create a good part of the hype and building a very wobbly house of cards.
Isn't the problem here that Laz has broken all the rules and tried to set the price point at auction? A good dealer choses their clients carefully and keeps the prices realistic (regardless of the secondary market). Of course as an artist's career develops their prices should go up in the primary market, but not ten fold in a year. It's a 2 way relationship between gallery and client that protects the artist. To let the auction houses dictate (or even to price fix the auctions yourself) is to throw an artist to the lions and see if he survives. It's selfish, destructive and very naive of the dealer to do this. If I were Micallef I'd be having some sleepless nights right now and asking myself some very searching questions. Or alternatively I might be lying in bed counting the money I made in one show and thinking 'f**k it, I'm rich beyond my wildest dreams'.
The bi-product of this stupidity is an army of flippers who think that if prices go up by 1000% in a year then it follows that they should go up by about 100% in a couple of months. But you can't blame them. Blame the gallery for using them to create a good part of the hype and building a very wobbly house of cards.
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Fans V Investors, by ricosg11 on Dec 1, 2007 19:35:07 GMT 1, Isn't the problem here that Laz has broken all the rules and tried to set the price point at auction? A good dealer choses their clients carefully and keeps the prices realistic (regardless of the secondary market). Of course as an artist's career develops their prices should go up in the primary market, but not ten fold in a year. It's a 2 way relationship between gallery and client that protects the artist. To let the auction houses dictate (or even to price fix the auctions yourself) is to throw an artist to the lions and see if he survives. It's selfish, destructive and very naive of the dealer to do this. If I were Micallef I'd be having some sleepless nights right now and asking myself some very searching questions. Or alternatively I might be lying in bed counting the money I made in one show and thinking 'f**k it, I'm rich beyond my wildest dreams'. The bi-product of this stupidity is an army of flippers who think that if prices go up by 1000% in a year then it follows that they should go up by about 100% in a couple of months. But you can't blame them. Blame the gallery for using them to create a good part of the hype and building a very wobbly house of cards.
yup
Isn't the problem here that Laz has broken all the rules and tried to set the price point at auction? A good dealer choses their clients carefully and keeps the prices realistic (regardless of the secondary market). Of course as an artist's career develops their prices should go up in the primary market, but not ten fold in a year. It's a 2 way relationship between gallery and client that protects the artist. To let the auction houses dictate (or even to price fix the auctions yourself) is to throw an artist to the lions and see if he survives. It's selfish, destructive and very naive of the dealer to do this. If I were Micallef I'd be having some sleepless nights right now and asking myself some very searching questions. Or alternatively I might be lying in bed counting the money I made in one show and thinking 'f**k it, I'm rich beyond my wildest dreams'. The bi-product of this stupidity is an army of flippers who think that if prices go up by 1000% in a year then it follows that they should go up by about 100% in a couple of months. But you can't blame them. Blame the gallery for using them to create a good part of the hype and building a very wobbly house of cards. yup |
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afroken
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Fans V Investors, by afroken on Dec 1, 2007 19:37:30 GMT 1, I thought so
I thought so |
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guest2
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December 2006
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Fans V Investors, by guest2 on Dec 1, 2007 19:48:30 GMT 1, Isn't the problem here that Laz has broken all the rules and tried to set the price point at auction? A good dealer choses their clients carefully and keeps the prices realistic (regardless of the secondary market). Of course as an artist's career develops their prices should go up in the primary market, but not ten fold in a year. It's a 2 way relationship between gallery and client that protects the artist. To let the auction houses dictate (or even to price fix the auctions yourself) is to throw an artist to the lions and see if he survives. It's selfish, destructive and very naive of the dealer to do this. If I were Micallef I'd be having some sleepless nights right now and asking myself some very searching questions. Or alternatively I might be lying in bed counting the money I made in one show and thinking 'f**k it, I'm rich beyond my wildest dreams'. The bi-product of this stupidity is an army of flippers who think that if prices go up by 1000% in a year then it follows that they should go up by about 100% in a couple of months. But you can't blame them. Blame the gallery for using them to create a good part of the hype and building a very wobbly house of cards.
this is quite interesting, yes it's about watches but ...
www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article2753448.ece
Isn't the problem here that Laz has broken all the rules and tried to set the price point at auction? A good dealer choses their clients carefully and keeps the prices realistic (regardless of the secondary market). Of course as an artist's career develops their prices should go up in the primary market, but not ten fold in a year. It's a 2 way relationship between gallery and client that protects the artist. To let the auction houses dictate (or even to price fix the auctions yourself) is to throw an artist to the lions and see if he survives. It's selfish, destructive and very naive of the dealer to do this. If I were Micallef I'd be having some sleepless nights right now and asking myself some very searching questions. Or alternatively I might be lying in bed counting the money I made in one show and thinking 'f**k it, I'm rich beyond my wildest dreams'. The bi-product of this stupidity is an army of flippers who think that if prices go up by 1000% in a year then it follows that they should go up by about 100% in a couple of months. But you can't blame them. Blame the gallery for using them to create a good part of the hype and building a very wobbly house of cards. this is quite interesting, yes it's about watches but ... www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article2753448.ece |
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patrese
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July 2007
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Fans V Investors, by patrese on Dec 1, 2007 19:54:35 GMT 1, Isn't the problem here that Laz has broken all the rules and tried to set the price point at auction? A good dealer choses their clients carefully and keeps the prices realistic (regardless of the secondary market). Of course as an artist's career develops their prices should go up in the primary market, but not ten fold in a year. It's a 2 way relationship between gallery and client that protects the artist. To let the auction houses dictate (or even to price fix the auctions yourself) is to throw an artist to the lions and see if he survives. It's selfish, destructive and very naive of the dealer to do this. If I were Micallef I'd be having some sleepless nights right now and asking myself some very searching questions. Or alternatively I might be lying in bed counting the money I made in one show and thinking 'f**k it, I'm rich beyond my wildest dreams'. The bi-product of this stupidity is an army of flippers who think that if prices go up by 1000% in a year then it follows that they should go up by about 100% in a couple of months. But you can't blame them. Blame the gallery for using them to create a good part of the hype and building a very wobbly house of cards.
really well said...i think that's it in a nutshell +1
Isn't the problem here that Laz has broken all the rules and tried to set the price point at auction? A good dealer choses their clients carefully and keeps the prices realistic (regardless of the secondary market). Of course as an artist's career develops their prices should go up in the primary market, but not ten fold in a year. It's a 2 way relationship between gallery and client that protects the artist. To let the auction houses dictate (or even to price fix the auctions yourself) is to throw an artist to the lions and see if he survives. It's selfish, destructive and very naive of the dealer to do this. If I were Micallef I'd be having some sleepless nights right now and asking myself some very searching questions. Or alternatively I might be lying in bed counting the money I made in one show and thinking 'f**k it, I'm rich beyond my wildest dreams'. The bi-product of this stupidity is an army of flippers who think that if prices go up by 1000% in a year then it follows that they should go up by about 100% in a couple of months. But you can't blame them. Blame the gallery for using them to create a good part of the hype and building a very wobbly house of cards. really well said...i think that's it in a nutshell +1 |
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Fans V Investors, by fartofthestate on Dec 1, 2007 20:06:47 GMT 1, The get rich quick euphoria makes me want to puke blood!
The get rich quick euphoria makes me want to puke blood!
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pezlow
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January 2007
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Fans V Investors, by pezlow on Dec 1, 2007 20:29:18 GMT 1, Good post afroken although I somehow doubt AM is having too many sleepless nights. Bear in mind that as with most artists AM had been touting his wares for a number of years. 3 years ago his paintings barely sold at all. 2 years ago they were going for ยฃ1000 each. Now, in basically the space of 18 months, he's probably made a cool million pounds, possibly more.
That is wealth beyond most peoples wildest dreams and it is mostly down to laz. It also means that he can pretty much do whatever he wants for the rest of his career. His career is now entirely up to him. What incredible freedom that must be. Even if he goes back to selling paintings for ยฃ2k a pop it isn't really going to matter.
I'd imagine that rather than worrying AM thanks the lord for the day he met Steve Laz.
Good post afroken although I somehow doubt AM is having too many sleepless nights. Bear in mind that as with most artists AM had been touting his wares for a number of years. 3 years ago his paintings barely sold at all. 2 years ago they were going for ยฃ1000 each. Now, in basically the space of 18 months, he's probably made a cool million pounds, possibly more.
That is wealth beyond most peoples wildest dreams and it is mostly down to laz. It also means that he can pretty much do whatever he wants for the rest of his career. His career is now entirely up to him. What incredible freedom that must be. Even if he goes back to selling paintings for ยฃ2k a pop it isn't really going to matter.
I'd imagine that rather than worrying AM thanks the lord for the day he met Steve Laz.
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scottd007
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October 2007
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Fans V Investors, by scottd007 on Dec 1, 2007 20:32:21 GMT 1, Not entirely sure where I sit with this, is it a battle? A mate of mine made a great deal of cash "flipping" a Banksy "Morons" - This initially grabbed my attention, the lure of the quick buck and all that. This got me looking at your forum, POW/Laz etc.etc. websites & visiting galleries that deal in contemporary art. Upon receiving a reasonable bonus I decided that, rather than banging it in a poorly performing pension, I'd invest in something tangible that I can enjoy every single day. Initially I bought Micallefs Uzi Lover 1 & 2 (secondary market price - worth less right now but so what) images I love & the strongest / most desirable images of the 4 imho, with a view that I would, long term, not LOSE money and in an ideal world see them appreciate over time. I have bought a few other prints that have appealed to my recently awoken appreciation of art (More Micallefs, a Banksy, Dolk & some lessor know artists). The point of me telling you this is that I suppose starting out as an investor, I became a fan. That can only be a good thins, right? My rule is simple - I buy what I like and have space for. I don't understand those that buy prints and keep them in a tube (unless it's financial constraints) this surely smacks of intention to sell on? I commissioned a big 2m x 1.2m oil on canvass a few years ago from a Sheffield artist called "Mike Ward". This was to fill a big space on a big wall - Happily I see that he is doing OK and selling prints for around ยฃ300. I paid a very modest sum for an original that, based on these print prices, mean that things should have worked out ok financially (with this piece at least!) As for the rest - who knows! They are up on my walls, for me to enjoy (and to try to explain to my kids!) as the artist intended. Job done.
Not entirely sure where I sit with this, is it a battle? A mate of mine made a great deal of cash "flipping" a Banksy "Morons" - This initially grabbed my attention, the lure of the quick buck and all that. This got me looking at your forum, POW/Laz etc.etc. websites & visiting galleries that deal in contemporary art. Upon receiving a reasonable bonus I decided that, rather than banging it in a poorly performing pension, I'd invest in something tangible that I can enjoy every single day. Initially I bought Micallefs Uzi Lover 1 & 2 (secondary market price - worth less right now but so what) images I love & the strongest / most desirable images of the 4 imho, with a view that I would, long term, not LOSE money and in an ideal world see them appreciate over time. I have bought a few other prints that have appealed to my recently awoken appreciation of art (More Micallefs, a Banksy, Dolk & some lessor know artists). The point of me telling you this is that I suppose starting out as an investor, I became a fan. That can only be a good thins, right? My rule is simple - I buy what I like and have space for. I don't understand those that buy prints and keep them in a tube (unless it's financial constraints) this surely smacks of intention to sell on? I commissioned a big 2m x 1.2m oil on canvass a few years ago from a Sheffield artist called "Mike Ward". This was to fill a big space on a big wall - Happily I see that he is doing OK and selling prints for around ยฃ300. I paid a very modest sum for an original that, based on these print prices, mean that things should have worked out ok financially (with this piece at least!) As for the rest - who knows! They are up on my walls, for me to enjoy (and to try to explain to my kids!) as the artist intended. Job done.
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Fans V Investors, by corblimeylimey on Dec 1, 2007 20:41:50 GMT 1, I think galleries like Laz are pushing the prices up too high & too quickly (check out the prices at the new gallery in Newcastle) and artificially giving promise to the ever increasing prices and in doing so attracting the investors, but this IMO can only go so far, it's like stretching an elastic band eventually it'll snap, lots will have made money along the way the biggest losers will be the ones at the end holding on to pieces of paper worth half what they paid.
I think galleries like Laz are pushing the prices up too high & too quickly (check out the prices at the new gallery in Newcastle) and artificially giving promise to the ever increasing prices and in doing so attracting the investors, but this IMO can only go so far, it's like stretching an elastic band eventually it'll snap, lots will have made money along the way the biggest losers will be the ones at the end holding on to pieces of paper worth half what they paid.
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Harveyn
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Fans V Investors, by Harveyn on Dec 1, 2007 20:53:00 GMT 1, Many wise words have already been written in this thread so I apoligize if my contribution is lost.
I understand fully how commodities are effected by market trends and how confidence can create a bull or bear market. But this is art.
I appreciate that AMs work in monetary terms is currently worth less today than it was 2 months back. What I do not understand is why our debates are so centered around the value of his work rather than its merit in artistic terms.
My personal opinion is that his work from a quality perspective at worst has stood stationary. If I could afford to buy one of his original pieces I assure you I would and it would be treasured amongst my collection.
I can't wait to see his next releases because for me the quality of his work has never been up for debate and thats the only true value I am concerned about.
Many wise words have already been written in this thread so I apoligize if my contribution is lost.
I understand fully how commodities are effected by market trends and how confidence can create a bull or bear market. But this is art.
I appreciate that AMs work in monetary terms is currently worth less today than it was 2 months back. What I do not understand is why our debates are so centered around the value of his work rather than its merit in artistic terms.
My personal opinion is that his work from a quality perspective at worst has stood stationary. If I could afford to buy one of his original pieces I assure you I would and it would be treasured amongst my collection.
I can't wait to see his next releases because for me the quality of his work has never been up for debate and thats the only true value I am concerned about.
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Fans V Investors, by corblimeylimey on Dec 1, 2007 21:06:14 GMT 1, My personal opinion is that his work from a quality perspective at worst has stood stationary. I can't wait to see his next releases because for me the quality of his work has never been up for debate and thats the only true value I am concerned about.
Yes I agree with these points above, it's the prices being constantly pushed up by Laz etc that's spoiling it all, it's not an investment game is it.
My personal opinion is that his work from a quality perspective at worst has stood stationary. I can't wait to see his next releases because for me the quality of his work has never been up for debate and thats the only true value I am concerned about. Yes I agree with these points above, it's the prices being constantly pushed up by Laz etc that's spoiling it all, it's not an investment game is it. |
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andrewd
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September 2006
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Fans V Investors, by andrewd on Dec 1, 2007 21:13:05 GMT 1, Collecting Contemporary by Adam Lindeman deals with alot of what has been said here. The average gallerist wants their artists to do well they don't want stuff appearing at auctions, they won't sell to people who do that, ok they want to cover their own position, i.e. artist who sell at auction may as well leave the gallery and sell direct at auction cutting out the gallery. Theyare too smart to do that though.
Laz may have a problem on his hands here. Saying that at the moment it reminds me of the George Best story, found in bed in a hotel by room service bringing cavier and champagne with bank notes strewn all around him and in a close embrace with Miss World, the hotel employee says, 'Well where did it all go wrong Mr Best?"
Collecting Contemporary by Adam Lindeman deals with alot of what has been said here. The average gallerist wants their artists to do well they don't want stuff appearing at auctions, they won't sell to people who do that, ok they want to cover their own position, i.e. artist who sell at auction may as well leave the gallery and sell direct at auction cutting out the gallery. Theyare too smart to do that though.
Laz may have a problem on his hands here. Saying that at the moment it reminds me of the George Best story, found in bed in a hotel by room service bringing cavier and champagne with bank notes strewn all around him and in a close embrace with Miss World, the hotel employee says, 'Well where did it all go wrong Mr Best?"
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Fans V Investors, by corblimeylimey on Dec 1, 2007 21:17:41 GMT 1, Laz may have a problem on his hands here. Saying that at the moment it reminds me of the George Best story, found in bed in a hotel by room service bringing cavier and champagne with bank notes strewn all around him and in a close embrace with Miss World, the hotel employee says, 'Well where did it all go wrong Mr Best?"
My favourite George Best quote...
"I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered."
Laz may have a problem on his hands here. Saying that at the moment it reminds me of the George Best story, found in bed in a hotel by room service bringing cavier and champagne with bank notes strewn all around him and in a close embrace with Miss World, the hotel employee says, 'Well where did it all go wrong Mr Best?" My favourite George Best quote... "I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered." |
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afroken
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Fans V Investors, by afroken on Dec 1, 2007 21:20:03 GMT 1, Wealth beyond his wildest dreams is a quick fix. It wont make him happy and it wont give him artistic integrity. I disagree that he can now what he wants. Quite the opposite. Now he has to live up to the hype and high prices for the rest of life if he can. Otherwise he's finished. Now that's real pressure that no amount of money can pay for.
Wealth beyond his wildest dreams is a quick fix. It wont make him happy and it wont give him artistic integrity. I disagree that he can now what he wants. Quite the opposite. Now he has to live up to the hype and high prices for the rest of life if he can. Otherwise he's finished. Now that's real pressure that no amount of money can pay for.
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Harveyn
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Fans V Investors, by Harveyn on Dec 1, 2007 21:21:06 GMT 1, I would add the current Miss World (at the time).... ;D ;D ;D
I did not realize we had moved from discussing immensely talented people to people of pure genius!!!!
I would add the current Miss World (at the time).... ;D ;D ;D
I did not realize we had moved from discussing immensely talented people to people of pure genius!!!!
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Fans V Investors, by numusic on Dec 1, 2007 21:30:05 GMT 1, I think galleries like Laz are pushing the prices up too high & too quickly (check out the prices at the new gallery in Newcastle) and artificially giving promise to the ever increasing prices and in doing so attracting the investors, but this IMO can only go so far, it's like stretching an elastic band eventually it'll snap, lots will have made money along the way the biggest losers will be the ones at the end holding on to pieces of paper worth half what they paid.
thought the newcastle prices were surprisingly reasonable... city girl 76.. 900 sterling.. bargain IMO. Jose Parla, Neate, Tripp, Insect.. all less than I expected.
I think galleries like Laz are pushing the prices up too high & too quickly (check out the prices at the new gallery in Newcastle) and artificially giving promise to the ever increasing prices and in doing so attracting the investors, but this IMO can only go so far, it's like stretching an elastic band eventually it'll snap, lots will have made money along the way the biggest losers will be the ones at the end holding on to pieces of paper worth half what they paid. thought the newcastle prices were surprisingly reasonable... city girl 76.. 900 sterling.. bargain IMO. Jose Parla, Neate, Tripp, Insect.. all less than I expected. |
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Fans V Investors, by numusic on Dec 1, 2007 21:44:11 GMT 1, Isn't the problem here that Laz has broken all the rules and tried to set the price point at auction? A good dealer choses their clients carefully and keeps the prices realistic (regardless of the secondary market). Of course as an artist's career develops their prices should go up in the primary market, but not ten fold in a year. It's a 2 way relationship between gallery and client that protects the artist. To let the auction houses dictate (or even to price fix the auctions yourself) is to throw an artist to the lions and see if he survives. It's selfish, destructive and very naive of the dealer to do this. If I were Micallef I'd be having some sleepless nights right now and asking myself some very searching questions. Or alternatively I might be lying in bed counting the money I made in one show and thinking 'f**k it, I'm rich beyond my wildest dreams'. The bi-product of this stupidity is an army of flippers who think that if prices go up by 1000% in a year then it follows that they should go up by about 100% in a couple of months. But you can't blame them. Blame the gallery for using them to create a good part of the hype and building a very wobbly house of cards. really well said...i think that's it in a nutshell +1
Let's face facts hey.. without Laz, almost f**king nobody on here would would have anything more than a passing interest in art, let alone an active investment and interest in it (and I don't mean money). Yes, Laz has broken a few sensible market rules..f**king great !!! f**k the auctions and the galleries and the people who have controlled access to and dictated to us for centuries what art is and can be.. . If Laz prices you out of the market.. that's because you're no longer the target buyers, you were when he started, 8 years ago...give the guy a break, he's challenging a centuries old system, and doing it A1, an international impact in anything is some fucking achievement in my book... he's done the 50 quid street art print thing, long before this board or any other existed, he's over it.. in fact it pretty much exists because he had the f**king sense to risk what he did when he did.... he's a full on street art fan.. he works for the artists and the artform. Not a bunch of moaning stamp collecting "ooo, I like street art too" consumers. Heads up, 80% of people between the age of 13 and 40 "like" street art. Cos we people buy and trade the odd print, means f**k all in the big scheme of things. Yes we supported the start of this and yes we supported the Laz/Banksy/POW/PYMC model of promoting this work to the artworld and the masses.. it ain't over yet... the long haul...let's see where it goes without attacking those that created the market for it. f**k it, you can't play, you can't play... watching is fun too ya know. 50 million football fans can't be wrong 
SMASH THE SYSTEM, EAT THE RICH ;D
Isn't the problem here that Laz has broken all the rules and tried to set the price point at auction? A good dealer choses their clients carefully and keeps the prices realistic (regardless of the secondary market). Of course as an artist's career develops their prices should go up in the primary market, but not ten fold in a year. It's a 2 way relationship between gallery and client that protects the artist. To let the auction houses dictate (or even to price fix the auctions yourself) is to throw an artist to the lions and see if he survives. It's selfish, destructive and very naive of the dealer to do this. If I were Micallef I'd be having some sleepless nights right now and asking myself some very searching questions. Or alternatively I might be lying in bed counting the money I made in one show and thinking 'f**k it, I'm rich beyond my wildest dreams'. The bi-product of this stupidity is an army of flippers who think that if prices go up by 1000% in a year then it follows that they should go up by about 100% in a couple of months. But you can't blame them. Blame the gallery for using them to create a good part of the hype and building a very wobbly house of cards. really well said...i think that's it in a nutshell +1 Let's face facts hey.. without Laz, almost f**king nobody on here would would have anything more than a passing interest in art, let alone an active investment and interest in it (and I don't mean money). Yes, Laz has broken a few sensible market rules..f**king great !!! f**k the auctions and the galleries and the people who have controlled access to and dictated to us for centuries what art is and can be.. . If Laz prices you out of the market.. that's because you're no longer the target buyers, you were when he started, 8 years ago...give the guy a break, he's challenging a centuries old system, and doing it A1, an international impact in anything is some fucking achievement in my book... he's done the 50 quid street art print thing, long before this board or any other existed, he's over it.. in fact it pretty much exists because he had the f**king sense to risk what he did when he did.... he's a full on street art fan.. he works for the artists and the artform. Not a bunch of moaning stamp collecting "ooo, I like street art too" consumers. Heads up, 80% of people between the age of 13 and 40 "like" street art. Cos we people buy and trade the odd print, means f**k all in the big scheme of things. Yes we supported the start of this and yes we supported the Laz/Banksy/POW/PYMC model of promoting this work to the artworld and the masses.. it ain't over yet... the long haul...let's see where it goes without attacking those that created the market for it. f**k it, you can't play, you can't play... watching is fun too ya know. 50 million football fans can't be wrong SMASH THE SYSTEM, EAT THE RICH ;D |
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RBK
Junior Member
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September 2006
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Fans V Investors, by RBK on Dec 1, 2007 21:47:04 GMT 1, Isn't the problem here that Laz has broken all the rules and tried to set the price point at auction? A good dealer choses their clients carefully and keeps the prices realistic (regardless of the secondary market). Of course as an artist's career develops their prices should go up in the primary market, but not ten fold in a year. It's a 2 way relationship between gallery and client that protects the artist. To let the auction houses dictate (or even to price fix the auctions yourself) is to throw an artist to the lions and see if he survives. It's selfish, destructive and very naive of the dealer to do this. If I were Micallef I'd be having some sleepless nights right now and asking myself some very searching questions. Or alternatively I might be lying in bed counting the money I made in one show and thinking 'f**k it, I'm rich beyond my wildest dreams'. The bi-product of this stupidity is an army of flippers who think that if prices go up by 1000% in a year then it follows that they should go up by about 100% in a couple of months. But you can't blame them. Blame the gallery for using them to create a good part of the hype and building a very wobbly house of cards.
Well said +1
Isn't the problem here that Laz has broken all the rules and tried to set the price point at auction? A good dealer choses their clients carefully and keeps the prices realistic (regardless of the secondary market). Of course as an artist's career develops their prices should go up in the primary market, but not ten fold in a year. It's a 2 way relationship between gallery and client that protects the artist. To let the auction houses dictate (or even to price fix the auctions yourself) is to throw an artist to the lions and see if he survives. It's selfish, destructive and very naive of the dealer to do this. If I were Micallef I'd be having some sleepless nights right now and asking myself some very searching questions. Or alternatively I might be lying in bed counting the money I made in one show and thinking 'f**k it, I'm rich beyond my wildest dreams'. The bi-product of this stupidity is an army of flippers who think that if prices go up by 1000% in a year then it follows that they should go up by about 100% in a couple of months. But you can't blame them. Blame the gallery for using them to create a good part of the hype and building a very wobbly house of cards. Well said +1 |
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afroken
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February 2009
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Fans V Investors, by afroken on Dec 1, 2007 21:58:30 GMT 1, really well said...i think that's it in a nutshell +1 Let's face facts hey.. without Laz, almost f**king nobody on here would would have anything more than a passing interest in art, let alone an active investment and interest in it (and I don't mean money). Yes, Laz has broken a few sensible market rules..f**king great !!! f**k the auctions and the galleries and the people who have controlled access to and dictated to us for centuries what art is and can be.. . If Laz prices you out of the market.. that's because your not the target buyers..he's challenging a centuries old system, and doing it A1... he's done the 50 quid street art print thing, long before this board or any other existed.. in fact it pretty much exists because he had the f**king sense to risk what he did... he's a street art fan.. he works for the artists and the artform. Not a bunch of moaning stamp collecting "ooo, I like street art too" consumers. Heads up, 80% of people between the age of 13 and 40 "like" street art. Cos we people buy and trade the odd print, means f**k all in the big scheme of things. Yes we supported the start of this and yes we supported the Laz/Banksy/POW/PYMC model of promoting this work to the artworld and the masses.. it ain't over yet... the long haul...let's see where it goes without attacking those that created the market for it. f**k it, you can't play, you can't play... watching is fun too ya know. 50 million football fans can't be wrong SMASH THE SYSTEM, EAT THE RICH ;D
Agreed. No doubt he is a pioneer breaking new ground at every step. But sometimes the promise of large amounts of money leads to loss of integrity. I'm not saying this is definitely the case here, but everyone from politicians to evangelists start out with principles and then get a sniff of the green stuff and they lose control of their senses. Time will tell as you say. The only ones with anything to lose really are the guinea pig artists. maybe.
really well said...i think that's it in a nutshell +1 Let's face facts hey.. without Laz, almost f**king nobody on here would would have anything more than a passing interest in art, let alone an active investment and interest in it (and I don't mean money). Yes, Laz has broken a few sensible market rules..f**king great !!! f**k the auctions and the galleries and the people who have controlled access to and dictated to us for centuries what art is and can be.. . If Laz prices you out of the market.. that's because your not the target buyers..he's challenging a centuries old system, and doing it A1... he's done the 50 quid street art print thing, long before this board or any other existed.. in fact it pretty much exists because he had the f**king sense to risk what he did... he's a street art fan.. he works for the artists and the artform. Not a bunch of moaning stamp collecting "ooo, I like street art too" consumers. Heads up, 80% of people between the age of 13 and 40 "like" street art. Cos we people buy and trade the odd print, means f**k all in the big scheme of things. Yes we supported the start of this and yes we supported the Laz/Banksy/POW/PYMC model of promoting this work to the artworld and the masses.. it ain't over yet... the long haul...let's see where it goes without attacking those that created the market for it. f**k it, you can't play, you can't play... watching is fun too ya know. 50 million football fans can't be wrong SMASH THE SYSTEM, EAT THE RICH ;D Agreed. No doubt he is a pioneer breaking new ground at every step. But sometimes the promise of large amounts of money leads to loss of integrity. I'm not saying this is definitely the case here, but everyone from politicians to evangelists start out with principles and then get a sniff of the green stuff and they lose control of their senses. Time will tell as you say. The only ones with anything to lose really are the guinea pig artists. maybe. |
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Fans V Investors, by manchestermike on Dec 1, 2007 21:58:40 GMT 1, really well said...i think that's it in a nutshell +1 Let's face facts hey.. without Laz, almost f**king nobody on here would would have anything more than a passing interest in art, let alone an active investment and interest in it (and I don't mean money). Yes, Laz has broken a few sensible market rules..f**king great !!! f**k the auctions and the galleries and the people who have controlled access to and dictated to us for centuries what art is and can be.. . If Laz prices you out of the market.. that's because your not the target buyers..he's challenging a centuries old system, and doing it A1... he's done the 50 quid street art print thing, long before this board or any other existed.. in fact it pretty much exists because he had the f**king sense to risk what he did... he's a street art fan.. he works for the artists and the artform. Not a bunch of moaning stamp collecting "ooo, I like street art too" consumers. Heads up, 80% of people between the age of 13 and 40 "like" street art. Cos we people buy and trade the odd print, means f**k all in the big scheme of things. Yes we supported the start of this and yes we supported the Laz/Banksy/POW/PYMC model of promoting this work to the artworld and the masses.. it ain't over yet... the long haul...let's see where it goes without attacking those that created the market for it. f**k it, you can't play, you can't play... watching is fun too ya know. 50 million football fans can't be wrong SMASH THE SYSTEM, EAT THE RICH ;D
really well said...i think that's it in a nutshell +1 Let's face facts hey.. without Laz, almost f**king nobody on here would would have anything more than a passing interest in art, let alone an active investment and interest in it (and I don't mean money). Yes, Laz has broken a few sensible market rules..f**king great !!! f**k the auctions and the galleries and the people who have controlled access to and dictated to us for centuries what art is and can be.. . If Laz prices you out of the market.. that's because your not the target buyers..he's challenging a centuries old system, and doing it A1... he's done the 50 quid street art print thing, long before this board or any other existed.. in fact it pretty much exists because he had the f**king sense to risk what he did... he's a street art fan.. he works for the artists and the artform. Not a bunch of moaning stamp collecting "ooo, I like street art too" consumers. Heads up, 80% of people between the age of 13 and 40 "like" street art. Cos we people buy and trade the odd print, means f**k all in the big scheme of things. Yes we supported the start of this and yes we supported the Laz/Banksy/POW/PYMC model of promoting this work to the artworld and the masses.. it ain't over yet... the long haul...let's see where it goes without attacking those that created the market for it. f**k it, you can't play, you can't play... watching is fun too ya know. 50 million football fans can't be wrong SMASH THE SYSTEM, EAT THE RICH ;D |
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Fans V Investors, by corblimeylimey on Dec 1, 2007 22:02:44 GMT 1, SMASH THE SYSTEM, EAT THE RICH ;D
But isn't LAZ becoming one of the richest? will he be the first to be eaten? ;D
SMASH THE SYSTEM, EAT THE RICH ;D But isn't LAZ becoming one of the richest? will he be the first to be eaten? ;D |
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What I mean is, when things are at a reasonably affordable price its the true fans of the artists work that are buying ;D When things are costing and selling for ยฃ1,000+ then the numbers of investors and flippers increases 
pushing out the true fans who are then forced off to look at other artists work. Any small blip in the artists popularity and the flippers and collectors flood ebay and the auction houses 
well said! ;D
